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Chronospherics
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(06-19-2017, 03:49 PM)
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Just wanted to approach this and discuss some thoughts on this. It's common that fighting games today, are adding things like 'stylish' modes and other simplified combat systems that effectively allow the game to be played, without any understanding of the combat systems, either mechanical, or theory.

This is fine, it allows people that have no interest in learning how to play, to be able to get from start to finish without experiencing too much trouble, while more in-depth systems are accessible for players that want a more hardcore experience.

However my issue is. Why do these developers believe that players don't want to learn how to play, when they have never tried to teach anyone how to play?

a) The information of architecture of fighting games is god awful (Tekken, Injustice, Guilty Gear)



There's no consideration for he user here. No consideration for what they might want to know. No thought that when you present the d-pad sideways like that (like arcade buttons), that it might confuse users on a controlller, no consideration that users might find it valuable to view the properties of each move, to understand why they might want to use them.

b) Tutorials teach you HOW but not WHY (USFIV, Injustice, MKX, Tekken)



Why teach the player useless combos? Why do I see this time and time again? Why do the tutorials in Injustice 2 teach the player a small fraction of the characters moves, without any context on why this is something you should know, or what you should do with it in a fight?

c) Information Overload (Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Tekken)



Sometimes they try to teach you far too much, and the investment is just far to steep. If you want to get good with a character in Guilty Gear, it's difficult to even know where to start. Guilty Gear gets a lot of credit because it's one of the only games that actually tries to teach the user, but it's also at risk of overwhelming the user; the structure of its tutorial information is far from ideal.

d) Learning Isn't Made Fun (SFV, KOF, Guilty Gear, Injustice, Marvel, Tekken)



There are language learning apps that gamify learning better than fighting games. How do you make games but not understand reward and motivation?

Until these problems are directly addressed, stylish, or easy input modes (KOF, Marvel Infinite, Persona, Guilty Gear) can be seen as a means of avoiding the issue. The onboarding, tutorials and information architecture of fighting games is absolutely appalling and these easy to play modes do nothing to address that problem.

As a games user research professional, this image comes to mind



By failing to design games with the user in mind, the process isn't smooth, therefore, the developers seek to add things onto their idea, post-hoc in an effort to alleviate the issue, which in turn create a big mess. Two fighting systems that aren't compatible with one another (stylish vs regular), yet get forced together. One of which has poor tutorialling, the other, is so simplistic and removed from any real sense of control that the user has little hope of building a sense of competence or achievement.

What are your thoughts?
Last edited by Chronospherics; 06-19-2017 at 03:55 PM.
Windup
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 03:56 PM)
This is a pretty minor thing, but the part about move lists reminded me of something I wish fighting games would do with them: allow users to select each move to see a brief description of that move. It's not a huge deal though since that information is pretty accessible in a bunch of different places.

In regards to guilty gear, if you start with the actual tutorial (not the character trials) and move onto missions, the game does a pretty good job of teaching you its systems and basic tactics. It's inherently a fairly complicated game though so I don't really see how it could ease players in more than it already does.
TheLegendaryN
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(06-19-2017, 03:57 PM)
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I agree with you, but I also think it's difficult to solve this problem tbh, b) and c) in particular.

(Also, I recognize the place on that picture. I visit that train station multiple times per week.)
Azuardo
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(06-19-2017, 04:00 PM)
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I absolutely hate Street Fighter's challenges, where they just list the move names you have to perform, and not the inputs required. It means you have to keep going into the command menu every single time, trying to remember what it said.
I-hate-u
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(06-19-2017, 04:02 PM)
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Combos are just 1 tiny aspect of the game. Rather than that, I wish games like SF and Tekken emphasized spacing, punishing, movement, and then they can teach combos.
lucebuce12
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(06-19-2017, 04:02 PM)
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Killer Instinct does a LOT of things right in how it presents information to the player.

The tutorial not only teaches how the mechanics work, they teach you how to implement them realistically. They teach you how to block properly, how to tie everything together into your gameplan. I mean shit, it even teaches the basic concepts involved in "footsies".

The command/move lists in the game also provide ALL the information you could need. Not only do they give you the frame data for every move, they explicitly tell you what effect each move has, what it's invincible to, what it's strengths are and what it can lead into.

More games than not just flub when it comes to teaching newbies how to play the game. Tekken 7 didn't even TRY. It literally has 0 teaching mechanics in place, no tutorial, nothing.

Originally Posted by Azuardo

I absolutely hate Street Fighter's challenges, where they just list the move names you have to perform, and not the inputs required. It means you have to keep going into the command menu every single time, trying to remember what it said.

SFV's trials give you the option to have either the move names or the inputs shown on screen, you change it by pressing pause.
killroy87
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(06-19-2017, 04:02 PM)
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Tekken 7 definitely is weak in terms of teaching a new player.

Injustice 2 has a pretty decent tutorial, and a ton of single player content to get the feel for things.

The new Guilty Gear I think does really well though, especially for such a complicated fighter.


I'm sure improvements can be made all around, it's a really tough problem to solve. It's tough to create a catch-all method for such a skill-based game, as all players will be going in with slightly different levels of knowledge and experience.
Chronospherics
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(06-19-2017, 04:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by TheLegendaryN

I agree with you, but I also think it's difficult to solve this problem tbh, b) and c) in particular.

(Also, I recognize the place on that picture. I visit that train station multiple times per week.)

I believe one of my colleagues took it. He tweeted it with that quote and then I added the quote to the image because I like it a lot. We're based in Brighton so it could be a station near here?

My colleague used it to say 'this is your game without user research'. I think it's pretty good at conveying the problems that stem from neglecting to design with the player in mind.
Last edited by Chronospherics; 06-20-2017 at 01:11 AM.
Onemic
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(06-19-2017, 04:03 PM)
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I definitely dont agree when it comes to GG. It has pretty damn good tutorials.
『Inaba Resident』
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(06-19-2017, 04:04 PM)
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I'm actually legit surprised that Tekken launched and it had fuck all for a tutorial.
Game doesn't tell you anything.
Shadic7700
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(06-19-2017, 04:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Azuardo

I absolutely hate Street Fighter's challenges, where they just list the move names you have to perform, and not the inputs required. It means you have to keep going into the command menu every single time, trying to remember what it said.

You know there's an option for that right?
Weltall Zero
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(06-19-2017, 04:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's infinitely easier to see what is wrong than it is to see what would be the better alternatives. "Nonapples" is not a design document.

Originally Posted by Windup

This is a pretty minor thing, but the part about move lists reminded me of something I wish fighting games would do with them: allow users to select each move to see a brief description of that move. It's not a huge deal though since that information is pretty accessible in a bunch of different places.

Many games already do that (including Injustice, which lists a description, properties, follow ups, properties of the meter burn version, etc.). It is frankly unforgivable when they don't, especially when they don't have a lot of moves to start with (like MvC Infinite, but then everything about it seems half-assed).
Ishmae1
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(06-19-2017, 04:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

Killer Instinct does a LOT of things right in how it presents information to the player.

The tutorial not only teaches how the mechanics work, they teach you how to implement them realistically. They teach you how to block properly, how to tie everything together into your gameplan. I mean shit, it even teaches the basic concepts involved in "footsies".

The command/move lists in the game also provide ALL the information you could need. Not only do they give you the frame data for every move, they explicitly tell you what effect each move has, what it's invincible to, what it's strengths are and what it can lead into.

Came here to say TC should check out KI's dojo mode. Someone beat me to it.
luckyjj10
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 04:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Azuardo

I absolutely hate Street Fighter's challenges, where they just list the move names you have to perform, and not the inputs required. It means you have to keep going into the command menu every single time, trying to remember what it said.

There is an option, at least in sfv, to display the commands instead in the start menu
antibolo
Banned
(06-19-2017, 04:06 PM)
I think that traditional fighting games are a lost cause at this point. They were a product of their time, back when Street Fighter II launched arcades into a new golden era. They were ubiquitous enough that their quirky systems had a place on the market. But now that they're a niche genre, their fundamental accessibility limitations have become a major obstacle in their continued relevance when faced with other competitive games that weren't born in an arcade environment and therefore don't have all that baggage.

The only way they can become more accessible is by fundamentally changing them into something else, like Nintendo did with Smash. But then they wouldn't be what they are anymore.
Last edited by antibolo; 06-19-2017 at 04:13 PM.
petghost
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(06-19-2017, 04:06 PM)
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the problem is that the systems are complex so explaining them succinctly in a way that isnt information overload is something i think is borderline impossible.

another thing is that the pace of a fighting game match is quick so learning how to implement these extremely situational things on a time table where the situation is constantly changing is something that 10 minutes in a tutorial isnt going to teach you how to do. GG and SG tried to cover basic fg mechanics like hit confirming or trying to react to mixups but im fairly confident these are things that can only be learned by lots of time playing matches or maybe in the lab.

i def think that simplifying the systems and inputs to the point of banality is not the answer because then fighting games lose what make them special but i dont see any quick and easy solutions to making learning easier.
Azuardo
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(06-19-2017, 04:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shadic7700

You know there's an option for that right?

Originally Posted by lucebuce12

SFV's trials give you the option to have either the move names or the inputs shown on screen, you change it by pressing pause.

Well, god damn. Thanks mates. I still think inputs should be the default display tho.
7DollarHagane
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(06-19-2017, 04:06 PM)
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The community does a better job of creating training materials and instructional videos than the games will ever be able to do.

This is totally acceptable and idk why people are so against reading some forums or watching some YouTube tutorials to learn how to play a fighting game.

It's not like an in game tutorial is going to suddenly make you win anyway. You still need to put in the work and put in the time to learn.

And most importantly you need to put in the time losing matches to learn what not to do. This is the biggest barrier to new players, who think that losing is a problem that the game must fix for them.

Losing is part of the experience of learning the game. Losing a match means nothing. Learn from it and get better. It's the only way to stop losing.

A game like call of duty a new player can wander in and get a few kills and run around and be stupid and feel like they "won" a few times.

Fighting games don't have that. If you're just pushing buttons mindlessly you get destroyed. It's a fundamental difference with most console online experiences.
Last edited by 7DollarHagane; 06-19-2017 at 04:08 PM.
rudger
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(06-19-2017, 04:07 PM)
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This weekend I witnessed a 4 year old instantly take to ARMS. That game seems accessible enough.

...I got destroyed.
Astarte
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(06-19-2017, 04:07 PM)
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truly the only way to learn is to go to your local fgc and get your ass beat into the ground long enough that they feel sorry for you and teach you basic tech
Skilletor
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(06-19-2017, 04:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Azuardo

I absolutely hate Street Fighter's challenges, where they just list the move names you have to perform, and not the inputs required. It means you have to keep going into the command menu every single time, trying to remember what it said.

You can change it to display inputs.

Beaten. haha
Chronospherics
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(06-19-2017, 04:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by I-hate-u

Combos are just 1 tiny aspect of the game. Rather than that, I wish games like SF and Tekken emphasized spacing, punishing, movement, and then they can teach combos.

It's not just about combos, this holds true for fighting game fundamentals too. Footsies, zoning, spacing, etc. Most games don't touch upon any of it.

Even grouping characters to reflect their play style has become a staple in other genres (like Overwatch / Battleborn). You could do that to reflect the type of range that a character likes to play in, that informs players what they should expect from the character, their play style, helps with understandability.

It's not always about explicitly teaching the player something, but lots of small changes to information architecture which can contribute to better understandability of the game, and in turn, a better user experience.
Strangelove77
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(06-19-2017, 04:09 PM)
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I never quite understood why you'd choose one combo over another if the beginning move is the same. Like if both combos start with a light kick, why pick the shorter weaker combo than the longer stronger combo?
RM8
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(06-19-2017, 04:09 PM)
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You know, of course I agree that fighting games are almost impenetrable for newcomers, but I also think newcomer approach these games the wrong way. I'm a fighting game veteran but my experience is mostly 2D fighters, and I'm in the process of learning Tekken for real right now. This is what I'm NOT doing: trying to memorize long combos in training mode. Maybe it's not ideal, but I'm hardly ever looking at the command list, I just discover new stuff by pressing forward twice and one kick, or up/right diagonal and two kicks. I've been losing a lot, but I've been winning and progressing as well! No tutorial beats losing a ton of fights and actually seeing why you're losing. Ah, this kick is easily punishable, maybe I should stop spamming it. Lol, this guy eats lots of throws, I'll use them more. Stuff like that is how I've been learning, and it's going okay I think.
RecRoulette
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(06-19-2017, 04:09 PM)
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I feel like devs would be better off building something into their game that can direct people to community folks that can teach their game better rather than trying to build that system in themselves.

Also games should have more information (frame data!) to help those community folks out.

Originally Posted by Strangelove77

I never quite understood why you'd choose one combo over another if the beginning move is the same. Like if both combos start with a light kick, why pick the shorter weaker combo than the longer stronger combo?

What if you can land the shorter combo 10/10 times but can only nail the longer one 8/10 times? Consistency > Slightly higher damage, especially when online comes into play.
Last edited by RecRoulette; 06-19-2017 at 04:12 PM.
petghost
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(06-19-2017, 04:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Astarte

truly the only way to learn is to go to your local fgc and get your ass beat into the ground long enough that they feel sorry for you and teach you basic tech

agreed i think this the only way to learn fg's even if the tutorials get better.

like get your ass beat then do some homework and slowly try to implement the stuff you learn.

Originally Posted by Strangelove77

I never quite understood why you'd choose one combo over another if the beginning move is the same. Like if both combos start with a light kick, why pick the shorter weaker combo than the longer stronger combo?

i think the most basic reason is execution requirement. do you wanna try to do a hard combo and possibly drop it or do a simpler combo with a higher chance of success and less damage? its an interesting risk reward thing that gets lost when execution requirements go out the window.
Last edited by petghost; 06-19-2017 at 04:12 PM.
NotLiquid
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(06-19-2017, 04:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Onemic

I definitely dont agree when it comes to GG. It has pretty damn good tutorials.

Yep. Especially Revelator/Rev 2's gamifies it's main tutorial tremendously while using it's Mission mode for deeper introspections into characters and even matchup tutorials. The only real problem there is about Guilty Gear is the aforementioned information overload but I don't think there's any real way to make that easier considering the complexity of the game is innate but it still has an "Easy Controls" mode for people to get used to.
Last edited by NotLiquid; 06-19-2017 at 04:11 PM.
7DollarHagane
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(06-19-2017, 04:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Strangelove77

I never quite understood why you'd choose one combo over another if the beginning move is the same. Like if both combos start with a light kick, why pick the shorter weaker combo than the longer stronger combo?

If the first attack is blocked you want the safer option that won't get you punished. This is hit confirming. You choose to do a safer option when blocked or the full damage riskier option if you hit.

And or the longer one is more difficult and you may not be confident in execution.
『Inaba Resident』
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(06-19-2017, 04:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Strangelove77

I never quite understood why you'd choose one combo over another if the beginning move is the same. Like if both combos start with a light kick, why pick the shorter weaker combo than the longer stronger combo?

Meter usage, screen positioning, etc.
Its not always about damage. What you want to do after is also a consideration.

Also other reasons like difficulty in regards to execution and how safe each combo is if its blocked.
I-hate-u
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(06-19-2017, 04:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

It's not just about combos, this holds true for fighting game fundamentals too. Footsies, zoning, spacing, etc. Most games don't touch upon any of it.

Even grouping characters to reflect their play style has become a staple in other genres (like Overwatch / Battleborn). You could do that to reflect the type of range that a character likes to play in, that informs players what they should expect from the character, their play style, helps with understandability.

It's not always about explicitly teaching the player something, but lots of small changes to information architecture which can contribute to better understandability of the game, and in turn, a better user experience.

Absolutely agreed. It's laughable how much these companies say they want to the make their accessible through easier execution, but do nothing to teach how to actually play a fighting game.
Lionel Richie
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(06-19-2017, 04:11 PM)
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I very much agree with everything you said OP, fighting games are hard as fuck to get into and while I love the games for the challenge they usually offer, learning the mechanics is usually very obnoxious. Points A and C are the biggest hurdle in those games IMO, it makes me think screw this shit I'm going to play Bayonetta again instead (a game with complex mechanics as well but without the dense inhospitability).
Brandon F
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(06-19-2017, 04:11 PM)
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The worst QTE.
Jimnymebob
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(06-19-2017, 04:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Windup

This is a pretty minor thing, but the part about move lists reminded me of something I wish fighting games would do with them: allow users to select each move to see a brief description of that move. It's not a huge deal though since that information is pretty accessible in a bunch of different places.

In regards to guilty gear, if you start with the actual tutorial (not the character trials) and move onto missions, the game does a pretty good job of teaching you its systems and basic tactics. It's inherently a fairly complicated game though so I don't really see how it could ease players in more than it already does.

BlazBlue did that, or I think it was BlazBlue at least, so does Injustice. Injustice is more technical, with things like frame data, while BB just tells you what it does visually.

They should get a way to get combos and tutorials from the community in game. I know most games usually have their own forums, including character forums etc., but I can't really think of anywhere that has a complete collection of relevant information that isn't spread across 5 YouTube channels, 6 websites, and 80 pages.

I appreciate what IJ2 does, where you can tag moves to appear on the screen, but the fact you can't add a move twice limits it's usefulness.
Sword Of Doom
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(06-19-2017, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Astarte

truly the only way to learn is to go to your local fgc and get your ass beat into the ground long enough that they feel sorry for you and teach you basic tech

I don't know, I think having someone who is equally matched or a little better than you can push you to get better. Getting your ass handed to you constantly just doesn't sound fun at all.
Gravy Boat
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(06-19-2017, 04:13 PM)
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Guilty Gear is extremely accessible. As far as fighting games go, it's pretty much unrivalled in terms of how it teaches you to play.
Primethius
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(06-19-2017, 04:13 PM)
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Information overload is one of my biggest issues with some FGs. I'm decent at fighting games but Guilty Gear XRD Signs tutorial with its massive information dump of a tutorial made me never touch that game again.

I had forgotten stuff it taught me by the time the entire tutorial was over. What a mess.
TheKeyPit
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(06-19-2017, 04:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

Killer Instinct does a LOT of things right in how it presents information to the player.

The tutorial not only teaches how the mechanics work, they teach you how to implement them realistically. They teach you how to block properly, how to tie everything together into your gameplan. I mean shit, it even teaches the basic concepts involved in "footsies".

The command/move lists in the game also provide ALL the information you could need. Not only do they give you the frame data for every move, they explicitly tell you what effect each move has, what it's invincible to, what it's strengths are and what it can lead into.

More games than not just flub when it comes to teaching newbies how to play the game. Tekken 7 didn't even TRY. It literally has 0 teaching mechanics in place, no tutorial, nothing.
SFV's trials give you the option to have either the move names or the inputs shown on screen, you change it by pressing pause.

It wasn't mentioned by OP, so it probably does lots of things completely right.
lucebuce12
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(06-19-2017, 04:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Astarte

truly the only way to learn is to go to your local fgc and get your ass beat into the ground long enough that they feel sorry for you and teach you basic tech

There's a difference between learning how to become good at a game, and learning the game.

IMO it should be the game's responsibility to teach you the absolute basics. Blocking, throw teching, some decent combos, how the moves work.

But actually pulling all of it together to form a cohesive gameplan is something that's incredibly difficult for a fighting game to teach, especially to newcomers to the genre.

THAT's where getting your ass beat comes into play.
MotionBlue
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(06-19-2017, 04:15 PM)
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Playing the Skull Girls tutorial did more for my knowledge of fighting games than a dozen other game tutorials.
The Jackdog
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(06-19-2017, 04:16 PM)
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really feel like killer instinct is the first fighting game ive played in awhile that was interested in teaching me how to play right without feeling like a pain in the ass or an insurmountable mountain
Chronospherics
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(06-19-2017, 04:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gravy Boat

Guilty Gear is extremely accessible. As far as fighting games go, it's pretty much unrivalled in terms of how it teaches you to play.

Teaches you a lot of stuff =/= accessibility. It's about the structure and pacing of information, as much as it is what is taught. I don't think GG really does that well.

And it also doesn't mean that that process is enjoyable. They gamify the opening... dashing tutorial, and then that style of presentation is dropped, it's not too long before you're sat their, grinding it out on combo trial 17 for hours on end, just like every other fighter.

Originally Posted by Astarte

truly the only way to learn is to go to your local fgc and get your ass beat into the ground long enough that they feel sorry for you and teach you basic tech

Playing other players helps a tonne yes but you should also be able to achieve a certain level of competence alone, without wading through nonsense to do it. Placing the responsibility for the user experience on the user, reflects a failure of the game. Sure, it's a multiplayer game, designed to be better with people to play with, but it should also learn and develop a sense of competence with, without that.

Also, it's 2017, people shouldn't have to drive across town to play with someone. If that's the only way to get a good experience from your product then your game has failed. Not to mention, a lot of people don't have that option, the vast majority of players don't engage with their FGC, many of which don't have access to one. I used to run the FGC in my town and there was only so much I could learn because of the 20-40 players who used to attend I was among the top 2 players. There was only so much to learn playing against the other guy that was decent (Necalli) over and over). I invested a lot of time into my local FGC and while it did help, it wasn't an answer to these problems. I'm sure it is if you live next to Justin and he's happy to teach you footsies, but that's not everyone.

Originally Posted by TheKeyPit

It wasn't mentioned by OP, so it probably does lots of things completely right.

It wasn't mentioned because I don't own it. I only listed games that I own and have explored the menus with. That's also why I left KOF alone for most of it. I don't own it.
Last edited by Chronospherics; 06-19-2017 at 04:23 PM.
cyborgnumberblue
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(06-19-2017, 04:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

You mention that games don't teach you why certain moves are useful, but Guilty Gear's Mission mode does that, specifically.
Vazra
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(06-19-2017, 04:17 PM)
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Dead or Alive 5 always gets snubbed when it comes to the tutorial conversation.
You got a deep tutorial

You got combo challenges which encourages you to learn some more things with the character you want to play.

You also get the traditional command training, free training and you even get frame data, damage values advantage, tracking data etc.


DOA5 for all the fan service it may have they also care about teaching people the mechanics well and went the extra mile giving people tools.
Sayad
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(06-19-2017, 04:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

d) Learning Isn't Made Fun (SFV, KOF, Guilty Gear, Injustice, Marvel, Tekken)

If being taught about the mechanics is done by explaining them + making you experience their usage in realistic situation like in GGXrd mission mode isn't "fun learning", then the problem isn't the method but you not enjoying the game or not wanting to put in time to learn.
RM8
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(06-19-2017, 04:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lionel Richie

I very much agree with everything you said OP, fighting games are hard as fuck to get into and while I love the games for the challenge they usually offer, learning the mechanics is usually very obnoxious. Points A and C are the biggest hurdle in those games IMO, it makes me think screw this shit I'm going to play Bayonetta again instead (a game with complex mechanics as well but without the dense inhospitability).

I'd say the main difference between fighting games and action games is that someone has to lose in fighting games. If you completely overcome the idea that losing is bad and a waste of time, then you have the right mindset to actually learn and get better. And still, some of your best matches ever will end up with you losing.
Azuardo
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(06-19-2017, 04:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vazra

Dead or Alive 5 always gets snubbed when it comes to the tutorial conversation.
You got a deep tutorial

You got combo challenges which encourages you to learn some more things with the character you want to play.

You also get the traditional command training, free training and you even get frame data, damage values advantage, tracking data etc.



DOA5 for all the fan service it may have they also care about teaching people the mechanics well and went the extra mile giving people tools.

My man.
hotcyder
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(06-19-2017, 04:18 PM)
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As much as people want to pretend it's not a real fighting game - Smash Brothers definitely figures this out.

Controls are intuitive and easy to pick up, lots of modes that teach you the controls in a fun manner (adventure mode, target practice and the like).
Quebaz
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(06-19-2017, 04:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

Teaches you a lot of stuff =/= accessibility

And it also doesn't mean that that process is enjoyable. They gamify the opening... dashing tutorial, and then that style of presentation is dropped, it's not too long before you're sat their, grinding it out on combo trial 17 for hours on end, just like every other fighter.

Maybe because the combo trials aren't meant as tutorial tools but rather as challenges, atleast that's how I always saw them.
lucebuce12
Member
(06-19-2017, 04:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sayad

If being taught about the mechanics is done by explaining them + making you experience their usage in realistic situation like in GGXrd mission mode isn't "fun learning", then the problem isn't the method but you not enjoying the game or not wanting to put in time to learn.

This. Judging by a lot of OP's points, he doesn't enjoy the concept of learning how to actually play the game.

There's only so many hand-held situations one can be put through before the player has to actually learn how to understand and play the game in the setting that it's designed to be played in.

Originally Posted by Vazra

Dead or Alive 5 always gets snubbed when it comes to the tutorial conversation.
You got a deep tutorial

You got combo challenges which encourages you to learn some more things with the character you want to play.

You also get the traditional command training, free training and you even get frame data, damage values advantage, tracking data etc.



DOA5 for all the fan service it may have they also care about teaching people the mechanics well and went the extra mile giving people tools.

As someone who loves fan-service, hawt women and good fighting games I wish a new DoA comes out soon :(
Beartruck
Member
(06-19-2017, 04:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by rudger

This weekend I witnessed a 4 year old instantly take to ARMS. That game seems accessible enough.

...I got destroyed.

ARMs is a great fighting game for beginners. Its got spacing, dashes, blocks, throws, etc, but Its also simple enough that anyone can at least play decently. I played Minmin online and did decent, but once I learned how her dragon works and what triggers it and paired a good weapon with it, I started dominating much more. If only all fighting games could be so simple.

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