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Fandangox
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(06-19-2017, 04:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

Teaches you a lot of stuff =/= accessibility.

I don't know what else are you expecting from Guilty Gear. If you start the game for the first time, it will ask you if you want to go through the basic tutorial. Which teaches the player the most basic of movement and attacking mechanics in the game in the form of a mini game where you have to beat Jack-o's minions.

The mission mode teaches the player all universal mechanics, and most importantly WHEN to apply them. Then there's the individual character tutorials for teaching the players the tools eqch character has, and then combos.

There's even Matchup specific tutorials, this game laids out everything for the player.

Information overload doesn't even make sense as a complain because you cannot access certain character specific missions until you clear the easier ones.
Cybit
FGC Waterboy
(06-19-2017, 04:25 PM)
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KI and GG have had some of the best tutorials for FGs. If ArcSys is thinking forward, I'd get the KI folks to do the dojo / tutorial for the upcoming DragonBall game - that game will probably get a ton of immediate casual interest.
Chronospherics
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(06-19-2017, 04:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by cyborgnumberblue

You mention that games don't teach you why certain moves are useful, but Guilty Gear's Mission mode does that, specifically.

Yeah, that's why it's not in the list of example cases for that issue. I only listed USFIV, Injustice, MKX, Tekken. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
ArjanN
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(06-19-2017, 04:25 PM)
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While the Guilty Gear tutorial stuff is really good, I think the 'problem' there is that there's still just so much to learn.

Honestly I think it's also a problem of expectations, i.e. even with the best tutorials in the world, you still can't expect to actually become good without putting in a lot of time. That said it's actualy not as hard to jump in and have a good time at a lower level than people assume.
Vazra
irresponsible vagina leak
(06-19-2017, 04:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

As someone who loves fan-service, hawt women and good fighting games I wish a new DoA comes out soon :(

They are milking the DLC for all its worth with 5 but I feel they will be teasing DOA6 either this year or the next year. They should keep up the format they did with 5 of F2P version and a full version cause it worked wonders for them.
Solidus187
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 04:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by MotionBlue

Playing the Skull Girls tutorial did more for my knowledge of fighting games than a dozen other game tutorials.

Yup, came here to make sure someone mentioned this. I only played SG for a week, but that tutorial is fantastic. Teaches you a lot of the how and why, from both the offensive and defensive side of things, and is easy to digest.

It's been a long time since I played it, but the high/low mixup blocking exercise from it is something I still think back to pretty often.
FloatOn
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(06-19-2017, 04:28 PM)
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check out pocket rumble

it's a two button fighting game soon to be released with simple inputs.
JusDoIt
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(06-19-2017, 04:28 PM)
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Fighting games are hard. Hard to learn. Hard to teach. It's why the genre remains niche despite having wide-appeal and cultural recognizability.

I'm not sure if it's even a problem that can, or should, be solved. The skill investment required approaches that of learning a sport/a language/an instrument.
lucebuce12
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(06-19-2017, 04:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vazra

They are milking the DLC for all its worth with 5 but I feel they will be teasing DOA6 either this year or the next year. They should keep up the format they did with 5 of F2P version and a full version cause it worked wonders for them.

If the game has decent netcode, I'll be there day one. Always felt like that game doesn't get the respect it deserves for a lot of things. Hope we get some news this TGS.
Last edited by lucebuce12; 06-19-2017 at 04:31 PM.
tanooki27
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(06-19-2017, 04:31 PM)
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ya know you're absolutely right? good points. it wouldn't take much to make fighting game tutorials more engaging
Sayad
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(06-19-2017, 04:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

c) Information Overload (Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Tekken)



Sometimes they try to teach you far too much, and the investment is just far to steep. If you want to get good with a character in Guilty Gear, it's difficult to even know where to start. Guilty Gear gets a lot of credit because it's one of the only games that actually tries to teach the user, but it's also at risk of overwhelming the user; the structure of its tutorial information is far from ideal.

That image is from an advanced combo in combo challenge mode, that's not teaching, it's literally there as a "can you do this" challenge!
Skilletor
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(06-19-2017, 04:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sayad

That image is from an advanced combo in combo challenge mode, that's not teaching, it's literally there as a "can you do this" challenge!

Yeah, to get to this point, you would have needed to complete the basics, beginner, and advanced tutorials.
Mr. Poolman
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(06-19-2017, 04:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vazra

Dead or Alive 5 always gets snubbed when it comes to the tutorial conversation.
You got a deep tutorial

You got combo challenges which encourages you to learn some more things with the character you want to play.

You also get the traditional command training, free training and you even get frame data, damage values advantage, tracking data etc.



DOA5 for all the fan service it may have they also care about teaching people the mechanics well and went the extra mile giving people tools.

I don't like fanservice, but I admit it, DoA is a very solid fighting game.
cyborgnumberblue
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(06-19-2017, 04:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

Yeah, that's why it's not in the list of example cases for that issue. I only listed USFIV, Injustice, MKX, Tekken. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Except you also say that Guilty Gear teaches you too much. Though the example used in the picture is a combo of extremely limited practical application and is in a trial mode.

Guilty Gear is by far the most accessible fighting game out right now. I can't think of any other game that provides an FAQ at the mid match pause menu telling how to literally look at the screen.
yukimeans_snow
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 04:35 PM)
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My thoughts? Before even touching offense, fighting games should teach defense. The tutorial in Skullgirls comes to mind where it started with defense, and even forced the player to do each task multiple times. Learning that awesome combo is useless if you don't know how to deal with a mix-up, cross-ups, and projectile spam
pizzacat
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(06-19-2017, 04:36 PM)
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All of this can be learned with a good google search. The community has found ways to do things in fighting games that devs wouldn't have thought of because of being too attached to the game and not seeing it as a player.

If the devs outright tell you the best buttons in a game for example like tekken they would be outright dictating the meta or the play style for characters and it would lead to characters not reaching their full potential if the devs either didn't see how certain moves work with others or how well it fares against other characters etc

Devs just don't have the time that lab monsters have, not even testers.

You yourself have to give these strings meaning. Training modes are extensive these days.

I am completely new to tekken with tekken 7, if I'm able to read things like this http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums...hreadid=131914 , understand it, test it in practice mode, apply it to my matches just by looking on the internet why can't anyone else?
Sayad
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(06-19-2017, 04:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by cyborgnumberblue

Guilty Gear is by far the most accessible fighting game out right now. I can't think of any other game that provides an FAQ at the mid match pause menu telling how to literally look at the screen.

It's not the most accessible as it's not being dumped down to cater to the masses, but it's by far the game that provide the best tools for those who actually want to learn.
voodoopanda
Member
(06-19-2017, 04:39 PM)
I feel like, for me personally, the most important things I learned when getting into fighting games more seriously were the concepts & importance of blocking, safe moves, unsafe moves and punishing. So many people getting into fighting games for the first time I don't think even really know what that stuff means or that it even exists, and instead jump straight into trying to figure out ridiculous combos or complicated roman cancel focus attack dash cancel stuff.

So much of what actually playing a fighting game is are these concepts, moreso than combos or even moves or the various systems some fighters have. Often times things like combos, moves, systems are there to help you take advantage of that basic setup. A combo doesn't matter at all if you don't understand how to land the first hit in the first place, and protect yourself against getting hit. Which makes the game frustrating and feel like it's way too hard.

A game's tutorial, or story mode or whatever, should really drill those in. Maybe rethink fighting game single player away from trying to mimic balanced player vs player matches, and instead throw overpowered monsters at the player that requires mastery of these ideas in order to win. AI is notoriously different from playing a real player anyway and often just reinforces bad play.

The first thing you fight in a single player campaign should be this monster that does super obvious choreographed moves that stuff every attack you can do, knocks you out of the air & causes like 25%-50% damage. But if you block & punish in time the fight becomes trivial. Use the gameplay itself to get folks to stop buttonmashin their way through these things.
Spman2099
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(06-19-2017, 04:39 PM)
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They need to instill the basics through a single player story mode. Something that slowly teaches you how to zone, play footsies, and anit-air. A great case was made for this in an Extra Credits episode. I personally think they are absolutely on the money.

Mortal Kombat tried this once, but the implementation left A LOT to be desired.
SliceSabre
Catgirls in skimpy clothes aren't sexual, it's their made up MMO culture
(06-19-2017, 04:42 PM)
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c) Information Overload (Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Tekken)


I honestly think they have the best solution because they are actually trying to teach the player the basics. The problem is, BB in particular, the basics are also very complicated. Which feels like more a 'problem' of the game itself and not the tutorials.
SatelliteOfLove
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(06-19-2017, 04:42 PM)
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The amount of work and sheer genius that Sega, ASW, and a few others have did with their exhaustive tutorials (not to mention the hordes of pro bono YT videos going into excrutiating detail) proves that there isnt a lack of these things you laid out.

In short, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink, and its harder when the horse actively fights you or expects the water in his belly before hes even thirsty.
HardRojo
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(06-19-2017, 04:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

SFV's trials give you the option to have either the move names or the inputs shown on screen, you change it by pressing pause.

Originally Posted by Shadic7700

You know there's an option for that right?

And this shows why it's not a problem the developer can solve by themselves. Plenty of users aren't willing to overcome whatever challenge is presented or even look for the options menu to find more stuff, like the example the quoted posters replied to.

"But there's no way to do this. Why didn't they put it in there?"
"The option is there, you can set it that way"
"Well, they should be more straightforward about it!"

Games could start by teaching basics that work in basically any other game:

- High/Low/Overhead blocking
- Dealing with fireballs
- Safe/Unsafe moves
- Punishing unsafe moves
- Tick throw/Throw teching
- Command grabs can't be guarded nor tech'd
- Meter management

I believe spacing is hard to teach as that varies per game and character playstyle and it comes with experience.
Last edited by HardRojo; 06-19-2017 at 04:51 PM.
mr_sockochris
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(06-19-2017, 04:43 PM)
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Killer Instinct pretty much tells you how, when and why you need to do the things it teaches you. The only thing it lacks is character specific training otherwise it would be practically faultless.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
(06-19-2017, 04:44 PM)
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Killer Instinct does have the best tutorial for teaching players why they want to be doing various things in the game. It's very comprehensive and easy to understand. It's so good I'd even recommend players who don't understand basic fighting game concepts play KI's tutorial first, even if they're not going to play KI a lot.

Street Fighter style combo challenges don't do much to teach people anything in most cases, it's true. Injustice 2's small character tutorials however are actually very good in my view. They're not meant to be comprehensive guides. They provide a quick start for a character

IMO part of the problem with fighting game accessibility design is that no matter how you ease players in and frame information, at the end of the day they're going to go online and get frustrated when they feel helpless against players who know how to play well. Is this the game's fault or the players fault? I think it is inevitably a bit of both. Many players do lack the mindset to make that uphill climb.

To battle that, I do think fighting games need more content besides the one on one PVP arena to keep players invested in the overall game and allow them to become very comfortable with using a character, and the game system. This is where, I think, players who strictly play multiplayer and don't believe single player content matters in fighters really don't understand. As a recent release Injustice 2 is a good example of giving players a lot to do outside live PVP - even myself, as an experienced player, finds relief in being able to drop out of multiplayer every so often and just play the multiverse or such for a while.

I've been thinking about this recently and I'm coming to feel that fighting game developers are making a mistake when they try to achieve accessibility by simplifying games in the wrong ways, to try and get inexperienced players to sit still long enough and not get angry. This isn't entirely about the interface or even tutorials, but in keeping people engaged with the game for long enough they feel invested and comfortable.
shoreu
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(06-19-2017, 04:44 PM)
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Killier instincts dojo should be the model to follow when it comes to accessibility it does such a good job laying out how the game is played online
cyborgnumberblue
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(06-19-2017, 04:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sayad

It's not the most accessible as it's not being dumped down to cater to the masses, but it's by far the game that provide the best tools for those who actually want to learn.

That's what stylish mode is. Any button auto combos into overdrives, including ground to air and air to ground combos, removing any execution barrier.
Chronospherics
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(06-19-2017, 04:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sayad

That image is from an advanced combo in combo challenge mode, that's not teaching, it's literally there as a "can you do this" challenge!

Had to use google images to get the pics so they're not exactly ideal. I wanted an image of the UI structure but I just picked an image that generally seemed overwhelming. I can't take screenshots of Guilty Gear while at work because I didn't bring it with me today.

The GIF from Tekken is the only one I made myself.

I think the number of training options are overwhelming in Guilty Gear, and it could benefit from restructuring the menus in a way that crafts a better learning (and gameplay) experience for the player, per character.

In the OP I mentioned language learning apps, and I was serious about that remark. In a lot of these apps that intend to teach you, the user gets to craft their own learning experience, pushing down various paths and being able to complete each challenge to various degrees (i.e. not just pass/fail), and all the while the app focuses on building the users sense of competence, providing a sense of reward. I felt that there's something that fighting games could take from that.

Originally Posted by cyborgnumberblue

Except you also say that Guilty Gear teaches you too much. Though the example used in the picture is a combo of extremely limited practical application and is in a trial mode.

Guilty Gear is by far the most accessible fighting game out right now. I can't think of any other game that provides an FAQ at the mid match pause menu telling how to literally look at the screen.

The screenshot isn't exactly what I intend to show, see above, but it does contribute to the sense of feeling overwhelmed by the content. Guilty Gear feels like it's the fighter that takes the tutorialling overboard. It's not always about tutorialing the player, there's plenty of ways to teach, without tutorial.

The example you give seems bizarre to me. Why would you need to have a tutorial on how to look at the screen? (I'm assuming you mean the interface). If I was making a game where I felt that I had to explicitly tutorial players on how to read the interface, then I might begin considering a redesign of the interface.
Last edited by Chronospherics; 06-19-2017 at 05:22 PM.
Pyrrhus
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(06-19-2017, 04:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by 『Inaba Resident』

I'm actually legit surprised that Tekken launched and it had fuck all for a tutorial.
Game doesn't tell you anything.

Yeah, it's a problem of philosophy on the part of the developer to a certain extent. That extends to the story mode, too. It's a cakewalk that expects nothing from the player for about 4/5 of its run and then difficulty hits a relative wall with the Kazumi fight and continues to spike throughout the final encounter with Kazuya, most especially that final devil form. The game becomes hatefully hard for a casual player with a CPU opponent that does input reading, has regenerating health, better priority on its moves than the player character you're forced to use or even the playable version of that boss, has super armor, tons of unblockable and in some cases 1-hit kill moves, randomly busts out full 10-hit juggle combos, and several periods of forced damage to the player and outright invincibility for the boss. All of this on the "normal" difficulty setting that is said to be for casual players right in its the description.

Neither the tutorial mode or the story mode itself does anything to explain the changes in rules or to actively build the necessary skills of the player moving through that story to that point. So it's just a wall of frustration that appears insurmountable without outside aid to explain what the CPU is doing and what the holes in its AI are. The only way forward if you can't hack it is to drop down to a mode that doesn't even let you use the normal control scheme and instead requires you to mash to get random moves off on an obviously lobotomized version of the opponent. Aside from being a really hateful, steep spike in difficulty for new, casual, and semi-casual players, it's also kneecapping the dramatic intent of the story by making the audience play that same climactic fight over and over again, getting more and more angry and frustrated. Or else robbing them of any sense of satisfaction by making them drop to something worse than Ninja Dog mode.

Fighting game developers still aren't really thinking about their design outside of making smooth mechanics and don't seem to know how to properly induct people who haven't been playing on a semi-regular basis since SFII. It appears to be the forbidding, gitgud pro-gamer mentality they've encouraged in their esports business conflicting with the desire to sell to the widest possible market. But I think they need to have somebody who isn't inside the bubble do usability testing for them.
Weltall Zero
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(06-19-2017, 04:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

Even grouping characters to reflect their play style has become a staple in other genres (like Overwatch / Battleborn). You could do that to reflect the type of range that a character likes to play in, that informs players what they should expect from the character, their play style, helps with understandability.

I like this idea a lot, kudos. Perhaps more keys to accesibility lie in other genres as well.

Originally Posted by FloatOn

check out pocket rumble

it's a two button fighting game soon to be released with simple inputs.

The topic specifically isn't about making fighting games "simpler", but maintain their complexity and make them more "approachable". That said, I for one agree that simplicity often leads to accesibility without necessarily sacrifying depth, which is why I like Smash Bros a lot.
Spaced Harrier
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(06-19-2017, 04:47 PM)
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Combo trials are challenges not tutorials.

That said the tutorials in most games are awful.

The first thing that needs to be thought are fighting game concepts.
Like Zoning, Cross-ups, Mix-ups, wake ups etc.

Not how to do it, but what is it,
Then you can start to recognize, to understand, just what is actually happening.
If you don't understand a cross up, but do understand how to block a standing move move normally, you will get destroyed online when the player jumps in, and on especially your wake up, but not understand why.
And that a relatively basic concept.


Tekken is super guilty of this. Its wake up system compared to other 3d fighters, and definitely compared to 2D fighters, is extremely obtuse.
New players haven't a clue what to do to stop getting pounded on.


What are the two biggest Fighting game lies?:
  • "We're really keen to bring in new players so we developed a comprehensive tutorial for the game."
  • "We've really focused on the online experience and the netcode."
Last edited by Spaced Harrier; 06-19-2017 at 04:51 PM.
muteki
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(06-19-2017, 04:49 PM)
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Mostly I agree. Games focus quite a lot on the how but not the why, when, or where.

I don't have too much issue with command lists as they aren't really meant to be a tutorial but more a quick reference when you don't have every move memorized (not that you need to). I do wish when doing training in addition to showing the sequence of inputs to perform a special move, that they also illustrate timing as well. Often I will duplicate a given move's input but it won't trigger for some reason, and I'm left wondering why, and what I should be working on to improve.
Last edited by muteki; 06-19-2017 at 04:51 PM.
Azuardo
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(06-19-2017, 04:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by HardRojo

And this shows why it's not a problem the developer can solve by themselves. Plenty of users aren't willing to overcome whatever challenge is presented or even look for the options menu to find more stuff, like the example the quoted posters replied to.
"But there's no way to do this. Why didn't they put it in there?"
"The option is there, you can set it that way"
"Well, they should be more straightforward about it!"

Hey, I hold my hands up. I don't recall seeing it in the game when I played it a year ago, so I assume it was an option all along and that it was my bad for overlooking it in the pause menu. That is, I doubt they patched that in after the fact.

But I'm not gonna change my stance on this one. I definitely think inputs should be displayed by default when asking players to perform moves. Especially in a game like SF, which uses ridiuculously-named Japanese terms for the moves. It's not very welcoming.
Tarextherex
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(06-19-2017, 04:50 PM)
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People overhype the hell of Guilty Gear just because it's not SFV. Only played SIGN but that Jack-O tutorial doesn't seem to avoid the issue of information overload, it's the same as GG/Blazblue 30 minute infodump that teaches you a bunch of mechanics that you will forget about right after except that it's on an infinitely scrolling stage. It needs to do a better job of convincing the player to stick with the game because when it's so overwhelming, you always feel like you aren't doing anything right. Meanwhile, while Street Fighter has a bad selection of modes too at least it's a more intuitive and simple game in which it's easy to figure out what you did wrong and gradually get better in every aspect of the game. Fighting games should have story/mission modes that are better scenarized and basically force you to master each aspect of the game to progress. For example you would need to beat a computer using one button, than you unlock other buttons/special moves/mechanics. If that's not enough of a hook you can even put in RPG elements to emphasize each mission, for example in that one you have a poison status effect to force you to end the match quickly or whatever. You can even add some loot mechanic to further hook the player instead of making modes that use similar gameplay elements yet no one cares about like M.O.M in GG or Heroes and Heralds in UMVC3.
TaterTots
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(06-19-2017, 04:50 PM)
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I'm surprised Tekken 7 does not have a thorough tutorial. It's a legacy title so it makes it difficult for beginners to jump in against others that have played for 10 years.
cyborgnumberblue
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(06-19-2017, 04:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

I think the number of training options are overwhelming in Guilty Gear, and it could benefit from restructuring the menus in a way that crafts a better learning (and gameplay) experience for the player, per character.

There's the tutorial at the beginning of the game, mission mode, and combo trial. What is overwhelming about that? Also, what specifically about the menus would "craft a better leaning experience" by being restructured?
Crayon
(06-19-2017, 04:50 PM)
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The skill floor got raised when we had to go from an arcade environment to an online environment. You used to be able to go swim in your small local pond. You could visit different machines at mini golf places or pizza parlors and find players of different skill levels. Or you could travel to a tournament to really test yourself.

I remember being pretty formidable on our local Tekken 3 machine. The skill level the locals had back then however was maybe two ticks below the lowest you find online on tekken 7 right now.

Tutorials and resources are are over the internet. If that's too big an obstacle to overcome, I doubt one would have the kind of attitude it takes to enjoy the learning curve. Fighting games need kiddie pools like the old local spots used to provide.
Cels
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(06-19-2017, 04:53 PM)
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virtua fighter 4 had a pretty good tutorial if i remember right

maybe that's just my old age showing lul
Karsticles
(06-19-2017, 04:57 PM)
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Fighting games are the highest skill cap genre along with RTSes. They survive by convincing casual players that they will feel just as good playing and beating pros as they will mashing buttons to win in the latest AAA game. The truth is that fighting games take a lot of work. A LOT. You can't change that, it's fundamental go the genre.

And the better player almost always wins, which is why every fighting game out there has a small group of players that consistently place well. This is not a scrub genre where people get lucky. Unlike MOBAs and shooters, you also have no teammates to blame for your failure. You either learn to hold your loss close to your chest or you scrub out and start complaining about the game until you quit.

A genre that fundentally has all of these traits will never find mainstream appeal unless it ALSO builds full-on secondary modes that negate these issues. Smash with items and KI Kontent are examples. Failing this, the game needs to either deceive the masses as being "approachable for casuals", or it has to incorporate a franchise whose fan base will purchase the game out of hype and loyalty (DBZ, P4A, Smash).

The goal can never be for fighting games to make casuals into pros. That is like making your goal as a math teacher to turn your students all into mathematicians. It's a guaranteed failed enterprise.
Sayad
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(06-19-2017, 05:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

Had to use google images to get the pics so they're not exactly ideal. I wanted an image of the UI structure but I just picked an image that generally seemed overwhelming. I can't take screenshots of Guilty Gear while at work because I didn't bring it with me today.

The GIF from Tekken is the only one I made myself.

I think the number of training options are overwhelming in Guilty Gear, and it could benefit from restructuring the menus in a way that crafts a better learning (and gameplay) experience for the player, per character.

In the OP I mentioned language learning apps, and I was serious about that remark. In a lot of these apps that intend to teach you, the user gets to craft their own learning experience, pushing down various paths and being able to complete each challenge to various degrees (i.e. not just pass/fail), and all the while the app focuses on building the users sense of competence, providing a sense of reward. I felt that there's something that fighting games could take from that.

GGXrd training mode is weak tbh, though more so due to lack of options. The things in training mode all make sense once you understand the mechanics and you end up actually thinking it's lacking features!

Mission mode is exactly like those learning apps, explains what the mission is, why do you need to that, and if you're having problems doing it you get hints, you also get more explanations and suggestion as to how to use what you just been taught or how to counter it once you've done the mission. They even rank your performance with B, A or S depending on how well you did in the mission, it's not just a pass/failed state!
Fandangox
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(06-19-2017, 05:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tarextherex

People overhype the hell of Guilty Gear just because it's not SFV. Only played SIGN but that Jack-O tutorial doesn't seem to avoid the issue of information overload, it's the same as GG/Blazblue 30 minute infodump that teaches you a bunch of mechanics that you will forget about right after

You forget about Jumping, blocking, moving and attacking? Cause thats what the Jack-o tutorial teaches. How that works in this specific game.
jediyoshi
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(06-19-2017, 05:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

d) Learning Isn't Made Fun (SFV, KOF, Guilty Gear, Injustice, Marvel, Tekken)



There are language learning apps that gamify learning better than fighting games. How do you make games but not understand reward and motivation?

If you need to gamify the learning of the game itself, there's something either wrong with the game or the person probably doesn't actually want to be playing/learning fighting games to begin with.
dmaul1114
Banned
(06-19-2017, 05:03 PM)
They definitley need better tutorials that cover the basics like Killer Instict.

They also have to decide whether they want to cater to the FGC crowd or be more casual and broader in appeal.

Capcom botched that with SFV with all their talk of widening appeal. Going from 1 frame links to 3 frame links is hardly being more casual friendly, not to mention the lacking tutorial mode, lacking single player content etc.

Tekken 7, though to be fair I don't really recall them putting all that much emphasis on attracting casuals/newbies, would be much more accessible if they simplified back dashing. Movement is so important and back dash canceling (much less the Korean method) takes al one time to learn--especially if new or newish to an aracde stick.

MKX/Injustice 2 do better, though the tutorials need a lot of work. Relatively simple inputs, dial a combos that don't require the precision in timing of SF or Tekken, tons of single player content with lots of things to unlock. Just add in better tutorials that teach fundamentals well like KI and encourage players to learn and play online more and those games could be good bridges for casuals to get more interested in checking out the more hardcore FGC games like SF and Tekken.
myco666
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:04 PM)
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GG most accessible fighting game? A game that has dash, airdash, double jump, jump cancels, 3 types of metered cancel for different situations and 3 types of block is the most accessible? Just because the game has ton of material that teaches the game it doesn't mean that it is the most accessible FG.
Hilbert
Deep into his 30th decade
(06-19-2017, 05:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cels

virtua fighter 4 had a pretty good tutorial if i remember right

maybe that's just my old age showing lul

Nah, VF4's tutorial is unmatched, even by later version of Virtua Fighter.
PepsimanVsJoe
(06-19-2017, 05:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Quebaz

Maybe because the combo trials aren't meant as tutorial tools but rather as challenges, atleast that's how I always saw them.

Exactly.
Players are better off developing their own combos that they can perform consistently.
Deft Beck
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:05 PM)
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As I stated a number of years ago in a thread I started, I think that AI will be a great force in tutorial mechanics in fighting games and games in general in the future.

Imagine an AI that is able to instruct and train newbies better than any canned tutorial or a video.
dmaul1114
Banned
(06-19-2017, 05:05 PM)

Originally Posted by jediyoshi

If you need to gamify the learning of the game itself, there's something either wrong with the game or the person probably doesn't actually want to be playing/learning fighting games to begin with.

I disagree with that entirely. Things game be made more fun simply by having better training modes that don't require manually recording AI moves. Just build in presets for practicing whiff punishes, anti-airs, parries and whatever each game needs.

Vs. now where a newbie has to watch YouTube videos to learn what they need to learn and how to set up training mode to practice etc. These companies should just hire some people like Gootecks, Aris etc. who make such videos to consult with them on improving tutorials and training mode.

Or not and the FGC and just continue to be niche and likely shrinking based on how down Evo numbers are looking compared to last year.
Chronospherics
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by cyborgnumberblue

There's the tutorial at the beginning of the game, mission mode, and combo trial. What is overwhelming about that? Also, what specifically about the menus would "craft a better leaning experience" by being restructured?

I'll reply to this properly when I get home from work and get chance to have a better look at Rev 2s interface and tutorials.

Originally Posted by jediyoshi

If you need to gamify the learning of the game itself, there's something either wrong with the game or the person probably doesn't actually want to be playing/learning fighting games to begin with.

That's the irony I guess.

But it's not uncommon that systems within games are gamified. Guilty Gear gamifies it's opening tutorial, because yes, teaching the player about how to move around the screen is boring, but it's something that's helpful for them to know.

Sound Shapes is another game that gamified learning. It's DLC packs teach you how to structure music by designing puzzles around a musical beat. It's not uncommon that there's something that's helpful for players to learn, but not that fun if told explicitly.

Injustice rewards the player with loot boxes for completing the character tutorials. It's a nice touch, but the character tutorials are really bad. They vary in value wildly, from one character to another.
Last edited by Chronospherics; 06-19-2017 at 05:09 PM.
RagingAvatar
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vazra

Dead or Alive 5 always gets snubbed when it comes to the tutorial conversation.
You got a deep tutorial

You got combo challenges which encourages you to learn some more things with the character you want to play.

You also get the traditional command training, free training and you even get frame data, damage values advantage, tracking data etc.



DOA5 for all the fan service it may have they also care about teaching people the mechanics well and went the extra mile giving people tools.

PREACH.

I bought Tekken 7 recently - I've never been a Tekken player. I literally have no clue what's going on.

I don't even know what Rage is, how to build it or the risk of it. Thanks devs.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
(06-19-2017, 05:08 PM)
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I miss Divekick. Arms is the closest fighting game to Divekick, but it's still not quite Divekick.

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