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Kill3r7
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by ArjanN

While the Guilty Gear tutorial stuff is really good, I think the 'problem' there is that there's still just so much to learn.

Honestly I think it's also a problem of expectations, i.e. even with the best tutorials in the world, you still can't expect to actually become good without putting in a lot of time. That said it's actualy not as hard to jump in and have a good time at a lower level than people assume.

That is the biggest issue with fighting games vs other popular genres. Even if they do a good job teaching the mechanics and combos, most people still won't be able to pull them off. Online play only highlights this issue. It is similar to FIFA with the dribble right stick controls. You can empower the player up to a certain extent but most people will end up spamming one simple move because it works well enough.
depths20XX
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:12 PM)
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I agree that most games could explain the what and why of fighting games better, but it mostly comes down to the player. You can learn as much as you want but eventually youre gonna have to compete against other players, and youre going to lose, a lot. There is no "oh you got a couple kills this match, dont feel so bad". You either lose or win, by yourself. Only through losses and understanding why you lost will you get better. Watching your own replays is a good idea for this reason.
Hyun Sai
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by depths20XX

I agree that most games could explain the what and why of fighting games better, but it mostly comes down to the player. You can learn as much as you want but eventually youre gonna have to compete against other players, and youre going to lose, a lot. Only through losses and understanding why you lost will you get better. Watching your own replays is a good idea for this reason.

That's a good thing Tekken 7 ditched replays, huh ?
SenseiAsad
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:13 PM)
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Yeah most of the games in the OP tend to get by with brand recognition rather than bringing in new players through quality or smart design. KI and to a lesser extent, DoA, do a significantly better job of providing a tutorial to fighting games.
Tu101uk
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:15 PM)
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The thing is that, as a few people have already mentioned, it's mainly the community that determine whether particular moves are useful or not, and who develop the optimal combos, not the developers. They just give us the toolbox to mess around in.

Sure, the devs occasionally provide sample combos in the in-game move lists or as combo trials, but they are never optimal - soon after a new fighting game is released (nowadays in a matter of weeks), there are numerous videos and forum posts online detailing the best combo routes for a variety of situations, what moves to abuse and avoid, etc. It's because the community are the ones that discovers these things, not the devs.

I've been thinking lately that there should be more community functions built into the game itself - maybe dedicated forums accessible through the game? Player-made trials of the most up-to-date combos? Links to videos and tips posted on an ingame message board?

I'm not saying what the current crop provide are perfect and don't need improving or don't need to be more accessible. However, that might be missing the point a bit - you can put all the bells and whistles into your training modes, you can put more descriptions in your movelists (like frame data, properties, etc.) and you can try to demonstrate the finer insights into playing fighting games - the reality is that the community already does a good job at explaining things, and really fighting games past a certain point will simply stop becoming fun by simply playing if you decide to pursue a more competitive path.

The fun comes from actually wanting to win, taking and understanding the losses and proactively wanting to improve. Like any competitive activity, if you don't have the desire to actually do any of that (never mind actually enjoying the process), then fighting games at a competitive level are really not for you.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:19 PM)
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It takes work to get good. It's the same as any genre. There is simply far too much information, variables, and abstract concepts to make "teaching" a straightforward endeavor. When do I do a fireball? When do I do a crouching medium kick? There are basic guidelines, but how well someone executes these two "basic" ideas of the neutral game can be a big part of what separates someone who still places well in locals to, you know, Daigo.

I learned Guilty Gear from nothing. I played the tutorial and missions, I watched the online tutorials, and frankly they don't take you very far. The only way to improve is by playing and constantly evaluating what you're doing. There is no hidden knowledge that will help you understand the neutral game. The game can teach you concepts, but learning their execution is entirely up to you. You can teach Dota 2 players how to deny or pull creeps, but how they utilize those techniques is 1. going to differ vastly from how pros use them to control the game, 2. only a modestly-sized part of everything going on in a match. I don't understand why people constantly expect fighting games to be different.
Chronospherics
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by 7DollarHagane

The community does a better job of creating training materials and instructional videos than the games will ever be able to do.

This is totally acceptable and idk why people are so against reading some forums...

As a new player, spend a little time on forums like tekken zaibatsu and it's not long before you'll see pages like this



In general, the forum and communities are part of the problem. They emphasise combos and downplay other strategic elements, because at high levels of play these players are often focused on optimising their combos, and the other elements (spacing, whiff punishing etc.) come naturally. Whereas combos feature ongoing, continual discussion throughout the lifespan of the game, alway the most accurate, and prominent threads on these forums.

Meanwhile, youtube is filled with combo videos, with strategy orientated videos on spacing, zoning, whiff punishing, etc. harder to find. Sifting through all of this information is often worse than its presentation in game, but some games (like Tekken, which has no tutorial information) give users no other choice.
Vazra
irresponsible vagina leak
(06-19-2017, 06:22 PM)

Originally Posted by RagingAvatar

PREACH.

I bought Tekken 7 recently - I've never been a Tekken player. I literally have no clue what's going on.

I don't even know what Rage is, how to build it or the risk of it. Thanks devs.

Its weird how in 2017 Tekken 7 came out with no basic tutorial. Im having tons of fun with the game but having to look online for videos and data that could be in the game is annoying and kills the pace. Even a basic tutorial on the new mechanics would have been something but nope.
Tu101uk
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

In general, the forum and communities are part of the problem. They emphasise combos and downplay other strategic elements, because at high levels of play these players are often focused on optimising their combos, and the other elements (spacing, whiff punishing etc.) come naturally. Whereas combos feature ongoing, continual discussion throughout the lifespan of the game, alway the most accurate, and prominent threads on these forums.

Meanwhile, youtube is filled with combo videos, with strategy orientated videos on spacing, zoning, whiff punishing, etc. harder to find. Sifting through all of this information is often worse than its presentation in game, but some games (like Tekken, which has no tutorial information) give users no other choice.

This is why I mentioned that devs should start providing their own community tools that are built into the game so that newer players can access this stuff without leaving the game. I reckon having the ability to make your own combo trials and posting them for other players to do would be a great boon to the intermediate players, as an example.
FACE
Banned
(06-19-2017, 06:23 PM)

Originally Posted by Beartruck

ARMs is a great fighting game for beginners. Its got spacing, dashes, blocks, throws, etc, but Its also simple enough that anyone can at least play decently. I played Minmin online and did decent, but once I learned how her dragon works and what triggers it and paired a good weapon with it, I started dominating much more. If only all fighting games could be so simple.

AstroLad
Hail to the KING baby
(06-19-2017, 06:24 PM)
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100% on board with you. I've wanted to get in to fighting games (at a casual level) for years, but am always stupefied at the total lack of attention paid to onboarding new players properly. Some sports games suffer from this too actually, though I've been playing those since forever so it's not an issue for me there. It's not even about dumbing the core game down at all, since the experienced community is so important, but man would I love it if these games were more newcomer friendly. Just assume I know nothing about fighting games at all, and also don't rely on me reading a 40-page article about the theory of combos and stuff. Just give me better onramps into your game, even if it's not ultimately the "full" pro experience. There has to be a happy satisfying medium between button mashing and hundreds of hours of study and practice for those of us who want to engage with these games but don't want to make it our primary hobby.
Zafir
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Fandangox

I don't know what else are you expecting from Guilty Gear. If you start the game for the first time, it will ask you if you want to go through the basic tutorial. Which teaches the player the most basic of movement and attacking mechanics in the game in the form of a mini game where you have to beat Jack-o's minions.

The mission mode teaches the player all universal mechanics, and most importantly WHEN to apply them. Then there's the individual character tutorials for teaching the players the tools eqch character has, and then combos.

There's even Matchup specific tutorials, this game laids out everything for the player.

Information overload doesn't even make sense as a complain because you cannot access certain character specific missions until you clear the easier ones.

It's a totally valid complaint, what are you talking about?

Even if you have to do a previous tutorial to unlock the next, you can still suffer from information overload because all you're doing is tutorials. You aren't taking a break and applying the lessons in a way that will help you commit those lessons into your memory.

If you do all the tutorials at once, by the time you get to a match you'll have probably forgotten it all.

There's a reason why people usually tell you to focus on the basics and build up your knowledge slowly, so you do actually learn the lessons.
dmaul1114
Banned
(06-19-2017, 06:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Tu101uk

This is why I mentioned that devs should start providing their own community tools that are built into the game so that newer players can access this stuff without leaving the game. I reckon having the ability to make your own combo trials and posting them for other players to do would be a great boon to the intermediate players, as an example.

They should just hire some of the people making good tutorials to consult on making the game.

Someone like Gootecks put out great videos, an e-book with training mode programs etc. for SF5 that could have easily been built into the game. I.e. Training mode presets for practicing the different routines he made (anti airs, punishes etc.).

Tekken 7 was out in Arcades for a long while before the home release, plenty of experts that could have consulted on a tutorial mode--not to mention the fundamentals of movement etc. are largely unchanged from the past several entries.

Hire some of those guys, along with an instructional designer that's an expert in interactive/online learning and have them consult with your programmers to build the best tutorial and other learning resources possible for minimal cost--to temporary contracted positions.
Fandangox
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zafir

It's a totally valid complaint, what are you talking about?

Even if you have to do a previous tutorial to unlock the next, you can still suffer from information overload because all you're doing is tutorials. You aren't taking a break and applying the lessons in a way that will help you commit those lessons into your memory.

If you do all the tutorials at once, by the time you get to a match you'll have probably forgotten it all.

There's a reason why people usually tell you to focus on the basics and build up your knowledge slowly, so you do actually learn the lessons.

Then do the specific tutorial/trial more than once? Nothing is stopping you from trying it as many times as you want.

What alternative do you suggest?
RedSwirl
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 06:31 PM)
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The problem is that if someone wants to get competitive, these games almost never teach fundamentals like spacing, mix-ups, footsies, and the like.

I haven't played KI but Skullgirls is the only FG I've seen with a tutorial that tries to extensively explain all that stuff. FGs have not only not uniformly figured out how to do this, but also haven't figured out how to gamify it really well. There's lots of outside information, but I feel like the overwhelming majority of people who touch a video game are never going to seek out help anywhere outside the game itself. Furthermore, everyone doesn't learn by constantly getting pummeled by pros. For a lot of people to get a true learning experience they need to fight people either just as good or slightly better than them. Ranking systems only work if there's a constant new supply of noobs.

And it's also important to include lots of content outside of PvP for people who don't actually care about getting competitive and just want to mash buttons. That can at least get a lot more people to buy the game.
Zafir
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chronospherics

As a new player, spend a little time on forums like tekken zaibatsu and it's not long before you'll see pages like this



In general, the forum and communities are part of the problem. They emphasise combos and downplay other strategic elements, because at high levels of play these players are often focused on optimising their combos, and the other elements (spacing, whiff punishing etc.) come naturally. Whereas combos feature ongoing, continual discussion throughout the lifespan of the game, alway the most accurate, and prominent threads on these forums.

Meanwhile, youtube is filled with combo videos, with strategy orientated videos on spacing, zoning, whiff punishing, etc. harder to find. Sifting through all of this information is often worse than its presentation in game, but some games (like Tekken, which has no tutorial information) give users no other choice.

I don't think that's entirely true. Most beginner aimed tutorials suggest to not bother learning combos at the start. I remember when I was trying to learn SFV last year, I saw a lot of people saying that and so I left it until I felt more comfortable with the fundamentals. Even then I started out with only beginner combo's because my execution wasn't good enough.

The problem is there isn't enough new people coming into the community, so most of the videos are aimed at intermediate people and above.

Originally Posted by Fandangox

Then do the specific tutorial/trial more than once? Nothing is stopping you from trying it as many times as you want.

What alternative do you suggest?

I mean I'm not saying there's an easy fix. I'm saying that it totally can be seen as an information overload. I don't see how you can contest that.

You could mix the tutorial up with a story mode, so it's dotted through it - then provide opportunities to use those lessons. Instead of asking people to play it before going into the story mode, and then they proceed to forget everything.

Either way, as other people have said, using community options and learning yourself is clearly the option of choice at the moment. It's how I learned to play SFV and Tekken 7 (though I can't say I'm particularly amazing at either). So perhaps tying in those community solutions into the game itself is one of the best ideas.
laxu
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vazra

Dead or Alive 5 always gets snubbed when it comes to the tutorial conversation.
You got a deep tutorial

You got combo challenges which encourages you to learn some more things with the character you want to play.

You also get the traditional command training, free training and you even get frame data, damage values advantage, tracking data etc.


DOA5 for all the fan service it may have they also care about teaching people the mechanics well and went the extra mile giving people tools.

I agree. On top of that it has things like showing move lists on screen based on what button you pressed last (e.g. you use kick it shows you kick based combos) and has some small rewards for going thru character move sets. As a fighting game casual I find it a lot more enjoyable to play than any of the games fighting game fans typically like (Tekken, SF etc). The fan service brings down what is otherwise a very enjoyable game.
Kthulhu
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(06-19-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

My thoughts? Before even touching offense, fighting games should teach defense. The tutorial in Skullgirls comes to mind where it started with defense, and even forced the player to do each task multiple times. Learning that awesome combo is useless if you don't know how to deal with a mix-up, cross-ups, and projectile spam

Skullgirls' tutorial is awesome. My only experience with fighting games prior to Skullgirls was Smash, but I was able to take to a six button layout fairly quickly.
mnemonicj
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:38 PM)
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Great post.

I gamed a lot of fighting games ever since the SNES era very casually, and I stopped playing them a little after SF3 and some Guilty Gear revision came out in the early 00's.
Last year, I picked up SFV and Xrd.

I had such a hard time understanding all of the, now defined, lingo that a lot players use. I didn't know what footsies, zoning, etc. meant. It was a frustrating experience, but I was already relatively familiar with the basics despite not knowing that they were now formally defined.

SFV is horrible at teaching newcomers how to play, and Capcom still has a long way to get this right.

I was surprised at how well ArcSys tries helping newcomers, despite the overwhelming amount of information. I still feel there's room for improvement on their tutorials.
When I was going through them, I felt the descriptions lacked a lot of information I needed to understand what my objective was. It felt as if the game assumed I already understood what it is about.
Asbel
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(06-19-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by I-hate-u

Combos are just 1 tiny aspect of the game. Rather than that, I wish games like SF and Tekken emphasized spacing, punishing, movement, and then they can teach combos.

Teaching timing is a huge part of this that I haven't seen any game teach. Like if you want to punish a Ken player for spamming dp, you got to time it right before he smacks you with another dp. Timing is different online too. Also, if a combo is part of your tutorial, tell me if I'm executing the next move in the combo too fast or too slow.
Vigilant Gambit
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(06-19-2017, 06:48 PM)
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This is a competitive games problem, not a fighting games problem. Rocket League has the exact same issue. People are doing dumb things at every rank.
DarkConfidant
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(06-19-2017, 06:52 PM)
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Glad we're having this discussion.

Last year I began to learn fighting games for the first time, and boy is it obtuse.

In the past month, I've really gotten into SFV and I'm enjoying it a ton! I've seen my game improve and that's an amazing feeling.
However, none of it was easy to come by mostly just because the game itself did very little to teach me how to play it, as if the devs didn't know.

I only see this level of obtuseness in fighting games, which is probably why most players I know IRL don't play any aside from Smash.

Games as a whole have made great strides to make themselves accessible without dumbing the down the content, or removing depth.
Fighting games mostly have remained unchanged in their learning structure (in that there isn't much of one).

I get that it was cool in the Arcade to see someone throw a Hadoken/do a fatality for the first time, wonder how they did it, and then figure it out yourself.
But in 2017 people can pick up satisfying multiplayer games without that hurdle, so fighting game devs need to step their game up.

Training modes with key inputs, recordable CPUs, and attack data have been useful, and replays for online matches are fantastic.

However, one generally still needs to understand both frame data and when a move is supposed to be used to really learn the game. The latter, can be done by trial and error to some extent, but even then one can be doing it wrong and not noticing.
The former is pretty much metagame, as fighting games don't slow themselves down to 1/60th speed and show you hit boxes ever, as far as I know.

I'm not asking that all information about playing a fighter be in the game. I doubt that's even possible as players are constantly discovering new knowledge on playing the game.
I do think, however, that the games should be able to teach you basic competency from the in game content. Things like anti-air, footsies, what the hell "crush counter" means.

Even as Arms just came out, which is a more simple game than most fighting games, most of its reviews criticized the game for doing a poor job as explaining some its basic fundamentals.


The answer to making fighting games more approachable isn't dumbing them down, as much as it is having the game give you basic information that any experienced player could just explain to you if you're lucky enough to know them.
People shouldn't have to go to YouTube.
thehillissilent
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cels

virtua fighter 4 had a pretty good tutorial if i remember right

maybe that's just my old age showing lul

I learned how to truly play Virtua Fighter from going through that tutorial. I will be forver grateful for that.

OT: Where in the hell is VF6 SEGA???!!!!1
yukimeans_snow
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by FACE

^ This is one of the reasons why I think the FGC themselves hold fighting games back from global appeal and bigger sales. The idea of simplifying controls makes them cringe, when most don't realize that many fighting games have an unnecessary execution barrier, and developers can't decide who to cater to. I can't entirely blame them because traditional fighting games started with motion inputs like QCF. But you gotta ask yourself why games like Smash, NRS games, and MOBAs are played by a much bigger demographic with a wider age range. They have a much less steep learning curve and are very easy to pick up and play. It's perfect for casual play, but on a deeper level, the games can be played competitively in tournaments, and if that doesn't define a good fighting game, I dunno what is.

Should the next Street Fighter have 2 attack buttons? No, SF is a special case and should not be changed. That small demographic knows what they like. The series will never be inclusive, so stop trying, Capcom. As for future fighting games, less buttons and motions doesn't always mean less depth. Once the execution barrier is diminished, more people can actually experience the damn game (assuming the dev made a competent fighter to begin with).

Let's put this into perspective with Chess. People aren't struggling to learn what all the pieces do. The prerequisite step of learning Chess is to learn how each piece moves, which can take about an hour, then the real thing begins.

Going back to a game like Guilty Gear, and people are struggling to do special moves, instant air dashes, or Roman Cancels. They can't experience the actual fighting if the essential mechanics are too hard to learn.

Also nothing beats a good tutorial.
Zafir
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vigilant Gambit

This is a competitive games problem, not a fighting games problem. Rocket League has the exact same issue. People are doing dumb things at every rank.

The difference being that the other games are easier to pick up and play at even a more casual level.

That's not to say Fighters can't be, on the contrary that's basically how they started for most people - going over to a friends house/arcade and having random battles with them. However with online you're often against people who have at least some experience in the genre and people don't particularly enjoy getting bodied over and over again without really feeling like they're getting anything from the experience (even from a learning stance - if you're really new you can often not know what you're doing wrong because you don't understand the game enough).

Not an easy problem to solve though, since the player base just isn't there to support the matchmaking at such a level. Niche genre, and people either sink or swim so to speak.

With all of that in mind, although this is a problem facing all competitive games, fighters suffer especially because you need this information to enjoy the game in some cases.
Tu101uk
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by dmaul1114

They should just hire some of the people making good tutorials to consult on making the game.

Someone like Gootecks put out great videos, an e-book with training mode programs etc. for SF5 that could have easily been built into the game. I.e. Training mode presets for practicing the different routines he made (anti airs, punishes etc.).

Tekken 7 was out in Arcades for a long while before the home release, plenty of experts that could have consulted on a tutorial mode--not to mention the fundamentals of movement etc. are largely unchanged from the past several entries.

Hire some of those guys, along with an instructional designer that's an expert in interactive/online learning and have them consult with your programmers to build the best tutorial and other learning resources possible for minimal cost--to temporary contracted positions.

Tekken 7 is a bit of an outlier in this regard - most fighting games nowadays don't get an arcade release beforehand (SFV, Injustice 2, etc.) or it's a simultaneous release (GGXrd Rev2, etc.). Also I wholeheartedly agree that Tekken has pretty barebones stuff in terms of tutorial modes compared to what else is out there and should've done better.

I still believe that, as techniques, strategies and optimal combos continue to change and improve over time, a game's community is what makes or breaks how competitive a game is, and there really needs to be more built-in stuff into the games that allow the experienced players to share their knowledge (through recorded demonstrations, custom made combo trials, general hints and tips) through the game itself, rather than relying on a casual or intermediate player to trawl through various videos and forums for that same knowledge.
Drahcir
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(06-19-2017, 07:03 PM)
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I am a total beginner and categorize myself as an FG enthusiast on the outside looking in, but I think the biggest obstacle for me personally is to know what to use in what situation and so far I haven't seen a tutorial that teaches that. I can't get myself invested in learning frame data and be completely aware of what to look for against an opponent. Learning match ups? Forget about it. Just show me basically if they do this, then you do this, and hammer that into memory through a substantial tutorial. I know that seems restrictive and probably not very fun for veterans of the genre, but I need that kind of hand-holding to make me feel like I know what to learn including fundamentals.
Vazra
irresponsible vagina leak
(06-19-2017, 07:06 PM)

Originally Posted by DarkConfidant

Training modes with key inputs, recordable CPUs, and attack data have been useful, and replays for online matches are fantastic.

However, one generally still needs to understand both frame data and when a move is supposed to be used to really learn the game. The latter, can be done by trial and error to some extent, but even then one can be doing it wrong and not noticing.
The former is pretty much metagame, as fighting games don't slow themselves down to 1/60th speed and show you hit boxes ever, as far as I know.

Lets go back into DOA5. :)

Playing replays of your online or offline matches with the amount of data offered here is quite amazing to learn from your mistakes and tweak your playstyle. They could add a forward and backward feature in the future game cause that would be a bit more helpful if I wanna repeat a scene but still amazing to see.

lucebuce12
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

^ This is one of the reasons why I think the FGC themselves hold fighting games back from global appeal and bigger sales. The idea of simplifying controls makes them cringe, when most don't realize that many fighting games have an unnecessary execution barrier, and developers can't decide who to cater to. I can't entirely blame them because traditional fighting games started with motion inputs like QCF. But you gotta ask yourself why games like Smash, NRS games, and MOBAs are played by a much bigger demographic with a wider age range. They have a much less steep learning curve and are very easy to pick up and play. It's perfect for casual play, but on a deeper level, the games can be played competitively in tournaments, and if that doesn't define a good fighting game, I dunno what is.

Should the next Street Fighter have 2 attack buttons? No, SF is a special case and should not be changed. That small demographic knows what they like. The series will never be inclusive, so stop trying, Capcom. As for future fighting games, less buttons and motions doesn't always mean less depth. Once the execution barrier is diminished, more people can actually experience the damn game (assuming the dev made a competent fighter to begin with).

Let's put this into perspective with Chess. People aren't struggling to learn what all the pieces do. The prerequisite step of learning Chess is to learn how each piece moves, which can take about an hour, then the real thing begins.

Going back to a game like Guilty Gear, and people are struggling to do special moves, instant air dashes, or Roman Cancels. They can't experience the actual fighting if the essential mechanics are too hard to learn.

I personally hope fighting game developers never try to appeal to people like you.
emag
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:08 PM)
OP (and others) should consider the mobile version of SFIV (Volt), which actually had tutorials on how to use special moves, etc., in particular situations (e.g., to avoid fireballs). It's a pity the training modes in the console/PC versions did not live up to that of the mobile version.
Azuardo
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vazra

Lets go back into DOA5. :)

Playing replays of your online or offline matches with the amount of data offered here is quite amazing to learn from your mistakes and tweak your playstyle. They could add a forward and backward feature in the future game cause that would be a bit more helpful if I wanna repeat a scene but still amazing to see.

Is there a technical reason why a rewind option isn't possible in replays?
FACE
Banned
(06-19-2017, 07:08 PM)

Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

^ This is one of the reasons why I think the FGC themselves hold fighting games back from global appeal and bigger sales. The idea of simplifying controls makes them cringe, when most don't realize that many fighting games have an unnecessary execution barrier, and developers can't decide who to cater to. I can't entirely blame them because traditional fighting games started with motion inputs like QCF. But you gotta ask yourself why games like Smash, NRS games, and MOBAs are played by a much bigger demographic with a wider age range. They have a much less steep learning curve and are very easy to pick up and play. It's perfect for casual play, but on a deeper level, the games can be played competitively in tournaments, and if that doesn't define a good fighting game, I dunno what is.

Should the next Street Fighter have 2 attack buttons? No, SF is a special case and should not be changed. That small demographic knows what they like. The series will never be inclusive, so stop trying, Capcom. As for future fighting games, less buttons and motions doesn't always mean less depth. Once the execution barrier is diminished, more people can actually experience the damn game (assuming the dev made a competent fighter to begin with).

Let's put this into perspective with Chess. People aren't struggling to learn what all the pieces do. The prerequisite step of learning Chess is to learn how each piece moves, which can take about an hour, then the real thing begins.

Going back to a game like Guilty Gear, and people are struggling to do special moves, instant air dashes, or Roman Cancels. They can't experience the actual fighting if the essential mechanics are too hard to learn.

Also nothing beats a good tutorial.

Have you considered that there are people out there that enjoy that aspect of fighting games?

Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I personally hope fighting game developers never try to appeal to people like you.

You're alright sometimes, despite playing Fang.

Vazra
irresponsible vagina leak
(06-19-2017, 07:11 PM)

Originally Posted by Azuardo

Is there a technical reason why a rewind option isn't possible in replays?

Seems to be more of an oversight on the replays that they never bothered to address. I get that regular matches outside of the competitive people are rather short but when you have fights that are winning 3 rounds and people play more with the clock it can be a bit of an annoyance trying to find the info on the area you want to explore. I hope that feature is a bit improved because its a flaw on a rather great feature.
dmaul1114
Banned
(06-19-2017, 07:12 PM)

Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I personally hope fighting game developers never try to appeal to people like you.

Originally Posted by FACE

Have you considered that there are people out there that enjoy that aspect of fighting games?

They weren't saying that all fighting games should be simplified. Hell they even gave a specific example of Street Fighter being a game that should remain complex.

The point was just that companies like Capcom either need to make some more simplified fighting games if they want to have a huge sales success, or just accept that the type of fighting games they make are for the FGC niche and can't have AAA budgets. Which is fine as it makes far more sense for things like Street Fighter to go the game as service approach that makes money longterm off the FGC than to try to make it into some huge sales blockbuster ala Smash or MKX as it's a hardcore series with a passionate following in the FGC niche.

Point being, there's plenty of room for simplified, casual friendly fighters and more hardcore ones. Even the hardcore FGC fans should be supportive of new fighting game IPs that are simpler than SF, Tekken et al as those can bring more people to the genre and some will learn fundamentals and get hooked and branch out into learning the more complex games. The SFs, Tekkens etc. of the world aren't going anywhere as they sell well enough, sell lots of DLC and have the esport scene growing and keeping them relevant in their niche where as most former arcade based genres have died off.
Skilletor
Banned
(06-19-2017, 07:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I personally hope fighting game developers never try to appeal to people like you.

This.
Hazzuh
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:15 PM)

Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I personally hope fighting game developers never try to appeal to people like you.

They already do, look at Street Fighter V. Capcom totally removed the execution barrier but people still complain.
dmaul1114
Banned
(06-19-2017, 07:20 PM)

Originally Posted by Tu101uk

Tekken 7 is a bit of an outlier in this regard - most fighting games nowadays don't get an arcade release beforehand (SFV, Injustice 2, etc.) or it's a simultaneous release (GGXrd Rev2, etc.). Also I wholeheartedly agree that Tekken has pretty barebones stuff in terms of tutorial modes compared to what else is out there and should've done better.

I still believe that, as techniques, strategies and optimal combos continue to change and improve over time, a game's community is what makes or breaks how competitive a game is, and there really needs to be more built-in stuff into the games that allow the experienced players to share their knowledge (through recorded demonstrations, custom made combo trials, general hints and tips) through the game itself, rather than relying on a casual or intermediate player to trawl through various videos and forums for that same knowledge.

I agree with that. I'm talking just better modes that cover the basics of movement, footsies punishes etc. The intermediate and above stuff is less important to be in game IMO as people that get to that level are more apt to turn to youtube etc. The problem is the people that never learn the basics, get bodied online and never play the game after beating story mode and become less likely to buy future fighting games.

Those are the ones who'd be helped by having stuff like Gootecks fighting game essentials for SFV built into the game with tutorials, pre-sets in a menu in training mode to set up the AI for this training guide routines etc. The average player isn't even aware that stuff is out there, much less finding it and learning how to set up training mode AI etc.


Originally Posted by Hazzuh

They already do, look at Street Fighter V. Capcom totally removed the execution barrier but people still complain.

Come on now, going from 1 frame links to 3 farm is hardly removing the barrier. That said, yeah, they probably shouldn't bother as it didn't help and SF is a hardcore FGC staple and not something that needs to be a beginner friendly game for newbies to the genre.

Capcom should leave SF for the hardcore and make some new IP that's more casual friendly and much easier for newbies to learn fighting game fundamentals without a high execution barrier. Build in good tutorials, training mode options etc. to teach footsies, defense, zoning, combo discovery etc. etc. Get people hooked on that then when some want to move to more complex games like SF they have and understanding of fighting game fundamentals and just have to learn the nuances of that game and work on the execution barriers.

It's not an either/or situations. Simple and complex games can not only co-exist, they can complement each other with the former serving as an entry point for new fans--some of home will eventually move on to the more comlex games and be more likely to become members of the FGC as they have the fundamentals to build on vs. getting bodied for weeks or months even in low ranks as they are trying to learn fundamentals and complex execution at the same time.
Holy Order Sol
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:20 PM)

Originally Posted by Hazzuh

They already do, look at Street Fighter V. Capcom totally removed the execution barrier but people still complain.

people still dropped combos in Rising Thunder

never their fault tho
Tu101uk
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

^ This is one of the reasons why I think the FGC themselves hold fighting games back from global appeal and bigger sales. The idea of simplifying controls makes them cringe, when most don't realize that many fighting games have an unnecessary execution barrier, and developers can't decide who to cater to. I can't entirely blame them because traditional fighting games started with motion inputs like QCF. But you gotta ask yourself why games like Smash, NRS games, and MOBAs are played by a much bigger demographic with a wider age range. They have a much less steep learning curve and are very easy to pick up and play. It's perfect for casual play, but on a deeper level, the games can be played competitively in tournaments, and if that doesn't define a good fighting game, I dunno what is.

Should the next Street Fighter have 2 attack buttons? No, SF is a special case and should not be changed. That small demographic knows what they like. The series will never be inclusive, so stop trying, Capcom. As for future fighting games, less buttons and motions doesn't always mean less depth. Once the execution barrier is diminished, more people can actually experience the damn game (assuming the dev made a competent fighter to begin with).

Let's put this into perspective with Chess. People aren't struggling to learn what all the pieces do. The prerequisite step of learning Chess is to learn how each piece moves, which can take about an hour, then the real thing begins.

Going back to a game like Guilty Gear, and people are struggling to do special moves, instant air dashes, or Roman Cancels. They can't experience the actual fighting if the essential mechanics are too hard to learn.

Also nothing beats a good tutorial.

This I don't agree with.

The developer made the conscious decision of putting the higher damaging techniques behind a more technical execution barrier. If you can't do it, that's fine - you don't need to learn Yellow or Purple Roman Cancels, instant air dashes, perfect dash spacing, etc. to be able to enjoy the game on a casual level. Just play other people at your own skill level and you'll have a blast.

Everything beyond those barriers is for the competitive players, and if you're not happy about being able to compete against those players because of execution (let's face it - people wouldn't have fun if they faced a pro Smash Melee player using advanced techniques like wavedashing and L-cancelling and lost all the time either, it's not just GG), and if you're not having fun by wanting to win and wanting to improve, it's really not for you.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:22 PM)

Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

Going back to a game like Guilty Gear, and people are struggling to do special moves, instant air dashes, or Roman Cancels. They can't experience the actual fighting if the essential mechanics are too hard to learn.

You can yellow RC out of neutral by pressing any three attack buttons except dust. Compared to previous iterations of Guilty Gear, where Roman Canceling entirely was contingent upon the input being performed within exact frames/states of the move, it has been reduced to what I would consider the easiest and most lenient input relative to its overall importance/significance to the game. If you cannot learn how to press three of four buttons simultaneously where the only constraint is having enough tension, it isn't the game's fault. You can even bind P+K+S to one button on either a pad or arcade stick.

There aren't even any Force Roman Cancels in Xrd.

Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

Should the next Street Fighter have 2 attack buttons? No, SF is a special case and should not be changed. That small demographic knows what they like. The series will never be inclusive, so stop trying, Capcom. As for future fighting games, less buttons and motions doesn't always mean less depth. Once the execution barrier is diminished, more people can actually experience the damn game (assuming the dev made a competent fighter to begin with).

The execution barrier being what it is is essentially the sole reason fighting games are competitive.

Evo moment 37 wouldn't be remarkable if the execution barrier didn't exist.
dmaul1114
Banned
(06-19-2017, 07:30 PM)

Originally Posted by Tu101uk

Just play other people at your own skill level and you'll have a blast.

The problem is that is easier said than done in a lot of games, particularly the hardcore ones. The player bases aren't huge as the barrier to entry has shrank the player base.

It's easy for a casual to have fun in Smash or MKX or Injustice 2 as there are tons of other casuals playing and thus easy to get matched against similar level players.

Things like SFV or Tekken 7 us newbies just get bodied. I tend to have maybe 1 or 2 matches out of 10 that are against people that are clear newbies vs. getting bodied by people who--while far from top players--are at least intermediates who are just new to the game and haven't ranked up yet (Tekken 7 currently, SFV near launch, haven't played much in nearly a year so not sure what that is like for newbies now).

Again, nothing wrong with more complex games at all. They're just not newbie friendly and not going to build their base if the companies publishing the games don't come up with some ways to interest new fans and help them build skill.

Be it putting in better learning tools to those games, or putting out new IP that's more complex than say Smash but has far less execution barriers than SF or Tekken to help them have fun learning the tutorials before graduating on to more complex fighting games.
HardRojo
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:30 PM)
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Watch VesperArcade's SF4 series tutorials, he does a great of explaining the game and it'll certainly help understanding fighting games on general.
lucebuce12
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hazzuh

They already do, look at Street Fighter V. Capcom totally removed the execution barrier but people still complain.

Removing the execution barrier is something that I don't disagree with.

Drastically lowering the execution ceiling is something that I do disagree with.
yukimeans_snow
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:31 PM)
yukimeans_snow's Avatar

Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I personally hope fighting game developers never try to appeal to people like you.

Sure, man. Just adding my input.

Originally Posted by FACE

Have you considered that there are people out there that enjoy that aspect of fighting games?

Yeah, I'm one of them. Just pointing out some ways to make fighting games more accessible.

If no one agrees, that's fine.
PeaceUK
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

^ But you gotta ask yourself why games like Smash, NRS games, and MOBAs are played by a much bigger demographic with a wider age range.

Nintendo, Batman, Fatalities, f2p team based games with little to no skill requirement.
chadtwo
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:34 PM)
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As someone who avoids fighting games for precisely these reasons, you've pretty much nailed it
lucebuce12
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by yukimeans_snow

Sure, man. Just adding my input.



Yeah, I'm one of them. Just pointing out some ways to make fighting games more accessible.

If no one agrees, that's fine.

For what it's worth, you should seriously try out Ed in Street Fighter 5.

All of his moves only have either a regular or EX version (no 3 versions depending on button strength) and only the one qcf motion required for his super. All his specials are done with buttons presses like 2 punch buttons or 3 for EX, etc.

That character severely reduced the execution requirement in a game where I personally felt it was already low enough.
cireza
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vazra

Dead or Alive 5

Yes. Good material here.

Also Virtua Fighter 5.
yukimeans_snow
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:38 PM)
yukimeans_snow's Avatar

Originally Posted by PeaceUK

Nintendo, Batman, Fatalities, f2p team based games with little to no skill requirement.

Ah, so someone who has no idea what they're doing can beat a pro Smash player?

Originally Posted by lucebuce12

For what it's worth, you should seriously try out Ed in Street Fighter 5.

All of his moves only have either a regular or EX version (no 3 versions depending on button strength) and only the one qcf motion required for his super. All his specials are done with buttons presses like 2 punch buttons or 3 for EX, etc.

That character severely reduced the execution requirement in a game where I personally felt it was already low enough.

Ed actually sounds pretty cool. But in SFV's case, it's a little too late to add someone like that to the roster. Though I do wonder if anyone got into the game because of him. That'd be neat.
Deepwater
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:38 PM)
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as a fellow UX professional, I salute you for this thread OP.

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