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Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 10:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by pa22word

Yes, historical liberals advocated the violent overthrow of the ruling elite but they didn't argue that they were fighting for a utopia that required half the population to be destroyed in order to create it

LOL, Marx never advocated for the extermination of half the population. You clearly know nothing about marxism outside of Cold War propaganda.

Originally Posted by pa22word

Marxim's utopian endpoint leads to people in charge to be able to justify literally anything in the pursuit of the ideology, which basically happened in every single Marxist regime in the 20th century.

Anti-communism in the US led to millions dead across the Third World. In the name of a capitalist utopia.
Kalentan
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kinyou

Look right at the start of the match when he checks the teams. The german flag has a swastika.

Looks like whoever said that cod2 didn't have it was misinformed.

Interesting how it seems inconsistant because look at this:

For CTF it's the Iron Crosses.

It seems like the game mainly uses the Iron Cross but has the Swastika used only in the menu and environment. However your teammates are all shown with the Iron Cross.

Edit 2: It also says the team is the Germans/Axis, never says Nazis.
Falchion
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by dc89

Hope you're ready for that solid gold MP40

I'm pretty sure that was standard issue back in the war. You could choose between gold or blue tiger.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
(06-19-2017, 10:13 PM)

Originally Posted by Crossing Eden

Citation needed. As you keep repeating yourself.

Let me repeat myself again, watch or read any interview for this game and 90% of them will mention "historically accurate, boots-on-the-ground, visceral, gritty and faithful and respectful to those that fought". Those are going to be the buzz words used in nearly every single interview.

I've never heard of any World War II game getting that much hyperbole thrown around in regards to historical accuracy.
Phrozenflame500
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:13 PM)
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Eh, it's CoD.

It makes sense that they'd want their bread and butter multiplayer to be as sanitized as possible.
Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 10:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

Let me repeat myself again, watch or read any interview for this game and 90% of them will mention "historically accurate, boots-on-the-ground, visceral, gritty and faithful and respectful to those that fought". Those are going to be the buzz words used in nearly every single interview.

I've never heard of any World War II game getting that much hyperbole thrown around in regards to historical accuracy.

Not being able to role-play as a nazi is respectful to those that fought.
Kalentan
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

Let me repeat myself again, watch or read any interview for this game and 90% of them will mention "historically accurate, boots-on-the-ground, visceral, gritty and faithful and respectful to those that fought". Those are going to be the buzz words used in nearly every single interview.

I've never heard of any World War II game getting that much hyperbole thrown around in regards to historical accuracy.

And they were used when talking about the Single-player.

We only started to get MP stuff this last weekend in which once talking about it, said they took a different approach.

What is hard to understand here?

Like your purposefully being obtuse.
Paasei
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kalentan

Seems to be just for that one map.

Plus if you look at the symbol that shows the two teams, it shows the Iron Cross for the Axis rather than the Swastika.

Edit: Interesting, so in CoD2 there was Swastika's but only in the environment. The teams themselves only wore Iron Crosses.

There has always been a difference between the Wehrmacht and the Nazi's with their SS squads. That is most likely the reason why both symbols can be seen in those games.
pa22word
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Volphied

LOL, Marx never advocated for the extermination of half the population. You clearly know nothing about marxism outside of Cold War propaganda.



Anti-communism in the US led to millions dead across the Third World. In the name of a capitalist utopia.

Marx advocated for the destruction of class and class consciousness. This inevitably led to exterminations as there is no other way to destroy class consciousness without purges or "reeducation" as all communist regimes inevitablly descended into the same cycles of purges and the otherization of increasingly arbitrarily defined classes were persecuted and tortured in order to be destroyed. Look into the word "kulak" and what it meant to be branded as such for an example of the sheer arbitrary nature of extermination arose out of the desire to destroy class, which at its core is Marxism 101.

Also, Capitalist utopia is pretty much an oxymoron. Sure there are libertarians who mix a little bit of utopia into their leanings, but just because all libertarians are capitalists doesn't mean all capitalists are libertarians.
Kalentan
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Paasei

There has always been a difference between the Wehrmacht and the Nazi's with their SS squads. That is most likely the reason why both symbols can be seen in those games.

True, but as I looked in further, the only usage of the symbol is on the match results and in the environments. The team in the menu simply says: "Germans" or "Axis" and their models have no Swastika's and their symbol above their head is the Iron Cross.

From google searches It seems as it was done to downplay the idea of people playing as Nazis.
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(06-19-2017, 10:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

Let me repeat myself again, watch or read any interview for this game and 90% of them will mention "historically accurate, boots-on-the-ground, visceral, gritty and faithful and respectful to those that fought". Those are going to be the buzz words used in nearly every single interview.

I've never heard of any World War II game getting that much hyperbole thrown around in regards to historical accuracy.

Maybe you need to stop being so concerned and hung up on some PR because your stance is a little baffling to me and seems less to do with the game and more with the fact a developer or whoever was a bit more hyperbolic about the games adherence to historical accuracy than they needed to be.
Joezie
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Paasei

There has always been a difference between the Wehrmacht and the Nazi's with their SS squads. That is most likely the reason why both symbols can be seen in those games.

NOPE. The Clean Wehrmacht Myth is straight up propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Wehrmacht

And people continue to wonder why these things need to be approached the way they are.
Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 10:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by pa22word

Marx advocated for the destruction of class and class consciousness. This inevitably led to exterminations as there is no other way to destroy class consciousness without purges or "reeducation" as all communist regimes inevitablly descended into the same cycles of purges and the otherization of increasingly arbitrarily defined classes were persecuted and tortured in order to be destroyed. Look into the word "kulak" and what it meant to be branded as such for an example of the sheer arbitrary nature of extermination arose out of the desire to destroy class, which at its core is Marxism 101.

This is such fucking hyperbole, jesus christ. You must be one of those people who decry "class warfare" whenever leftists even sneeze.

Originally Posted by pa22word

Also, Capitalist utopia is pretty much an oxymoron. Sure there are libertarians who mix a little bit of utopia into their leanings, but just because all libertarians are capitalists doesn't mean all capitalists are libertarians.

But just because all stalinists are communists doesn't mean all communists are stalinists.

Capitalism was perverted to justify slavery and genocide just as much as Communism. So lets ban symbols of both.

Or how about we only ban Nazi symbols, since that is one ideology that doesn't have to be perverted in order to become genocidal. It's from the start about genocide, and only about genocide.
Oersted
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:22 PM)
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10 bucks bet its because its forbidden in Germany to display them. Probably will censor the storymode.
Onlinehero
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:23 PM)
Keep politics out of my games!

*But keep Nazi symbols in.
MegaMelon
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:24 PM)
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Seems pretty simple to me. They don't want to be known as the game where people (including lots of kids if we're being honest with ourselves) get to kill and win in fights against others as the nazis. Sure there's something to be said about other groups but...it's nazis man. I don't think this will really impact the multiplayer in a negative way so I don't see the discontent.
PeskyToaster
(06-19-2017, 10:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Paasei

There has always been a difference between the Wehrmacht and the Nazi's with their SS squads. That is most likely the reason why both symbols can be seen in those games.

They both did the same things and worked towards the same goals. You can't excuse the army. Everyone knew what they were involved in.

This kind of highlights why it's important to not sanitize your history or else you hide the fact that the Wehrmacht wasn't just an innocent bystander but an active and eager participant in the Nazi regime and the Holocaust. It's shitty but people build their perceptions of history from media like this.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
(06-19-2017, 10:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Kalentan

And they were used when talking about the Single-player.

We only started to get MP stuff this last weekend in which once talking about it, said they took a different approach.

What is hard to understand here?

Like your purposefully being obtuse.

It is never stated by any of the devs being interviewed that they were only specifically talking about the single player.

Originally Posted by HStallion

Maybe you need to stop being so concerned and hung up on some PR because your stance is a little baffling to me and seems less to do with the game and more with the fact a developer or whoever was a bit more hyperbolic about the games adherence to historical accuracy than they needed to be.

If they had censored the swastikas in Saving Private Ryan I would have been just as up in arms about it. Censoring history sets a very bad precedent - what's going to be censored next?

What's the next thing people will latch on to that they're suddenly offended by that has to be scrubbed, erased or censored from history?
Luxorek
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Paasei

There has always been a difference between the Wehrmacht and the Nazi's with their SS squads. That is most likely the reason why both symbols can be seen in those games.

Educate yourself


Also, this...

Swastika was their damn national symbol. Every German soldier wore it on his uniform.
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(06-19-2017, 10:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

If they had censored the swastikas in Saving Private Ryan I would have been just as up in arms about it. Censoring history sets a very bad precedent - what's going to be censored next?

What's the next thing people will latch on to that they're suddenly offended by that has to be scrubbed, erased or censored from history?

So now its about censorship and not because of some developer or PR person talking a bit too loosely about the accuracy of the game? I'm still not sure what your game is here as the slippery slope fallacy never plays too well especially for something like removing Swastika in multiplayer modes for one video game that was done by the developers and game makers themselves.
Cranzor
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 10:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

What's the next thing people will latch on to that they're suddenly offended by that has to be scrubbed, erased or censored from history?

Do you honestly believe that swastikas being considered offensive is something recent?
Onlinehero
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:31 PM)

Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

If they had censored the swastikas in Saving Private Ryan I would have been just as up in arms about it. Censoring history sets a very bad precedent - what's going to be censored next?

What's the next thing people will latch on to that they're suddenly offended by that has to be scrubbed, erased or censored from history?

Plenty of racism and discrimination is already being "censored"/scrubbed in historic depictions. And this... it's fucking Nazis yo.
Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 10:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by MegaMelon

Seems pretty simple to me. They don't want to be known as the game where people (including lots of kids if we're being honest with ourselves) get to kill and win in fights against others as the nazis. Sure there's something to be said about other groups but...it's nazis man. I don't think this will really impact the multiplayer in a negative way so I don't see the discontent.

It's really sad that this needs to be spelled out.

Game developers don't want teens to cosplay as nazis. Shocker.
Hindl
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

It is never stated by any of the devs being interviewed that they were only specifically talking about the single player.



If they had censored the swastikas in Saving Private Ryan I would have been just as up in arms about it. Censoring history sets a very bad precedent - what's going to be censored next?

What's the next thing people will latch on to that they're suddenly offended by that has to be scrubbed, erased or censored from history?

It's in the main game...you're talking about them not having swastikas in a game mode where people are going to be running around in custom gold and weed skins while a Method Man announcer pack commentates over your play. If anything, including a swastika in that environment would be making light of the symbol and desensitizing people to it. Not Including a swastika in multiplayer isn't censoring history, and no one would learn shit or feel any different if the swastika was in multiplayer
Albino_Yeti
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kinyou

I imagine they did this so they can promote their esport events more easily. Might have been a bit awkward when their tv spots feature nazi symbols.

I think you are on to something here. I could easily see this being the reason.

I'm glad Swastikas are still in singleplayer at least, giving it a better sense of immersion.

But having black German soldiers in multiplayer? I let it slide in BF1, because the German Empire wasn't practicing the Nazi ideology during WW1, but WW2 is a different story. Nazi ideology viewed anyone not of Aryan race as subhuman. They willingly trampled all over the rights of black citizens, both German and those in occupied countries.

Sure, there were RARE instances of black soldiers serving in the Wehrmacht, but this game is making it look like the Nazis actively recruited black soldiers, as if they were some inclusive group or something.

Originally Posted by MegaMelon

Seems pretty simple to me. They don't want to be known as the game where people (including lots of kids if we're being honest with ourselves) get to kill and win in fights against others as the nazis. Sure there's something to be said about other groups but...it's nazis man. I don't think this will really impact the multiplayer in a negative way so I don't see the discontent.

The earlier WW2 games, like the early CODs and MOH games, had swastikas online and no one cared.
Hindl
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Albino_Yeti

The earlier WW2 games, like the early CODs and MOH games, had swastikas online and no one cared.

The earlier WW2 games, like the early CODs and MOH games, came out before the rise of far-right, neonazi extremism in the real world
Kalentan
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

It is never stated by any of the devs being interviewed that they were only specifically talking about the single player.

Considering they were only talking Single Player at the time, they assume you would realize that.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
(06-19-2017, 10:51 PM)

Originally Posted by Kalentan

Considering they were only talking Single Player at the time, they assume you would realize that.

Well I assumed they were talking about the entire game - you know what assuming does, right?
Yaphett Kotto
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:53 PM)
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What kills me is that over anything to be angry about being censored, it's a damn flag/symbol that not only offends people, but is a representation of everything that virtually everyone considers wrong (racism, fascism, hatred, etc.).

Like think about what you're arguing over and getting mad over.
Kalentan
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

Well I assumed they were talking about the entire game - you know what assuming does, right?

Not sure. Since you assumed wrong.

There was no reason to ever think they were referring to the whole game when they were constantly talking Single Player.
Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 10:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yaphett Kotto

What kills me is that over anything to be angry about being censored, it's a damn flag/symbol that not only offends people, but is a representation of everything that virtually everyone considers wrong (racism, fascism, hatred, etc.).

Like think about what you're arguing over and getting mad over.

No kidding. There are so many historical inaccuracies in the multiplayer mode, yet it's the fucking swastikas that some chose as the hill to die on.
OraleeWey
Member
(06-19-2017, 10:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

That same stupid gif keeps getting posted in here as an argument for pro-censorship and non-historical accuracy. Maybe I'm unique in this, but when I play a World War II game especially in multiplayer, I try and do it realistically; like taking cover behind walls and embankments, diving into trenches - using realistic tactics as you said. I don't just run around aimlessly shooting, but maybe that's just me.

Not just you, I also always try to play games realistically. Removing enemy blips, playing tactically, etc. I try to do it with little HUD aid as possible (because there's no HUD in IRL). As I get older, I prefer to play less mindless games and more realistic ones. Imo this is just another form of censorship.
Nepenthe
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by OraleeWey

Imo this is just another form of censorship.

I bet you get real pissed off at Disney movies not having any blood.
Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by OraleeWey

Not just you, I also always try to play games realistically. Removing enemy blips, playing tactically, etc. I try to do it with little HUD aid as possible (because there's no HUD in IRL).

I'm pretty sure the tactics you use would still get you killed really fast in actual, real world battle.

CoD isn't a battlefield simulator. I hope you're not believing that you're actually learning modern battle tactics from playing it.

Originally Posted by OraleeWey

As I get older, I prefer to play less mindless games and more realistic ones. Imo this is just another form of censorship.

Don't kid yourself, CoD multiplayer is the definition of a mindless game for kids.
CryptiK
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:09 PM)
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Multiplayer always used Iron crosses in the previous WW2 games. There was never a swastika for the axis team.

Originally Posted by Albino_Yeti


The earlier WW2 games, like the early CODs and MOH games, had swastikas online and no one cared.

I'm pretty sure they never did it was always the iron cross. EDIT: It was always Iron cross in gameplay, at the end the flag was a swastika.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
(06-19-2017, 11:09 PM)

Originally Posted by Kalentan

Not sure. Since you assumed wrong.

There was no reason to ever think they were referring to the whole game when they were constantly talking Single Player.

Really? Then I must be crazy to think that when they say "our game" will be historically accurate I should have read between the lines and knew it was SP only.

Originally Posted by OraleeWey

Not just you, I also always try to play games realistically. Removing enemy blips, playing tactically, etc. I try to do it with little HUD aid as possible (because there's no HUD in IRL). As I get older, I prefer to play less mindless games and more realistic ones. Imo this is just another form of censorship.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I bet you get real pissed off at Disney movies not having any blood.

You are quite the comedian.
rakkadakka
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:11 PM)
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Historical accuracy and Call of Duty.

Pick one.

I for one think they should address the US landing in Africa well before Normandy.

But you can't always get what you want...
Nepenthe
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

You are quite the comedian.

What's really funny is that you haven't responded to my big post addressed to you proving that you have any real concept of what historical accuracy means in regards to WWII aside from swastikas.

Originally Posted by rakkadakka

I for one thing they should address the US landing in Africa well before Normandy.

But you can't always get what you want...

More black people in my WWII games?

Never.
HotHamBoy
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:14 PM)
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Future kids: "Everything I Know About History I Learned From Call of Duty."
Deckard Chapel
Banned
(06-19-2017, 11:16 PM)

Originally Posted by Volphied

I'm pretty sure the tactics you use would still get you killed really fast in actual, real world battle.

CoD isn't a battlefield simulator. I hope you're not believing that you're actually learning modern battle tactics from playing it.

So using cover to move around the battlefield, using team tactics to flank an opponent, strategically lobbing grenades to assist your next move and shooting tactically in general aren't what occurs in actual, real world battle?
Nepenthe
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

So using cover to move around the battlefield, using team tactics to flank an opponent, strategically lobbing grenades to assist your next move and shooting tactically in general aren't what occurs in actual, real world battle?

This just in: Splatoon, Overwatch, and Conker: Live and Reloaded are accurate to what occurs in a real world battlefield.
Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 11:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

So using cover to move around the battlefield, using team tactics to flank an opponent, strategically lobbing grenades to assist your next move and shooting tactically in general aren't what occurs in actual, real world battle?

The enemy will see you doing this from a mile away and annihilate you.

Call of Duty is NOT a battle simulator. It's a videogame emphasizing entertainment with an extremely simplified depiction of fights.
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(06-19-2017, 11:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

So using cover to move around the battlefield, using team tactics to flank an opponent, strategically lobbing grenades to assist your next move and shooting tactically in general aren't what occurs in actual, real world battle?

Last I check all these actions are in basically every major FPS shooter out there so I'm guessing Splatoon must be a highly accurate example of WW2.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
(06-19-2017, 11:29 PM)

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

What's really funny is that you haven't responded to my big post addressed to you proving that you have any real concept of what historical accuracy means in regards to WWII aside from swastikas.

Historical accuracy in regards to WWII? I haven't been avoiding your question, I didn't see it asked. Isn't it obvious that historical accuracy in World War II should mean that it reflects actual history or at least has the feeling and atmosphere of it? Actual weapon models, actual clothing modelling, historically accurate dialogue, battlefield layouts and conflicts?

What do you mean?

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

This just in: Splatoon, Overwatch, and Conker: Live and Reloaded are accurate to what occurs in a real world battlefield.

You are truly a comedian.

All battles involve the same basic tactics: run, stop, take cover, shoot, deploy, flank etc.
DrkSage
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:31 PM)
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I just want my blood and gore from WaW :( is that too much to ask?
MattKeil
BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
(06-19-2017, 11:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by OraleeWey

Imo this is just another form of censorship.

Then you don't know what censorship is.

Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

All battles involve the same basic tactics: run, stop, take cover, shoot, deploy, flank etc.

Spawn from nowhere, switch sides of the field as the battle progresses then go the other way, lay down next to randomly placed flags as they automatically change to your side's flag, carry 50 pounds of spare ammo, sprint around stabbing people around corners like a deranged rabbit. You know. Realism.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
(06-19-2017, 11:33 PM)

Originally Posted by Volphied

The enemy will see you doing this from a mile away and annihilate you.

Call of Duty is NOT a battle simulator. It's a videogame emphasizing entertainment with an extremely simplified depiction of fights.

The enemy will annihilate me for doing what, the things that soldiers do in actuality?? Things like taking cover, flanking, throwing grenades, taking aim, diving into cover, etc?

Are you even being serious at this point?
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(06-19-2017, 11:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

Historical accuracy in regards to WWII? I haven't been avoiding your question, I didn't see it asked. Isn't it obvious that historical accuracy in World War II should mean that it reflects actual history or at least has the feeling and atmosphere of it? Actual weapon models, actual clothing modelling, historically accurate dialogue, battlefield layouts and conflicts?

What do you mean?



You are truly a comedian.

All battles involve the same basic tactics: run, stop, take cover, shoot, deploy, flank etc.

Can I ask what you're even arguing in favor for or against? You've brought up historical accuracy, you've mentioned developers over selling aspects of their game, you've made attempts to talk about censorship. You just seemed really pissed that Swastika's aren't in MP and are lashing out in a way possible to try and better make your case despite people poking holes through most of those "points" like they were Swiss cheese.
Xando
Member
(06-19-2017, 11:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

Historical accuracy in regards to WWII? I haven't been avoiding your question, I didn't see it asked. Isn't it obvious that historical accuracy in World War II should mean that it reflects actual history or at least has the feeling and atmosphere of it? Actual weapon models, actual clothing modelling, historically accurate dialogue, battlefield layouts and conflicts?

What do you mean?



You are truly a comedian.

All battles involve the same basic tactics: run, stop, take cover, shoot, deploy, flank etc.

So basically nothing what we've seen from CODWW2? Or do you think their 3 lane maps are based on actual battlefields? Or that their dialogue is even remotely accurate?

You're really going through alot of nonsense to justify your need for swastikas
Volphied
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 11:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

The enemy will annihilate me for doing what, the things that soldiers do in actuality?? Things like taking cover, flanking, throwing grenades, taking aim, diving into cover, etc?

You're not doing things that standard soldiers do. You're doing things that hero-wannabe's do, before they get killed.


Originally Posted by Deckard Chapel

Are you even being serious at this point?

You're the one who's claiming to have learned real world battle field lessons from Call of Duty of all things.

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