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LeleSocho · Aug 22, 2017

ultratruman said:
Doesn't matter what their importance to History is, monuments about historical figures that are not 100% clean of any association with past injustice need to be physically destroyed. Because my feelings cannot handle it.

This post is mindblowing because if you think this through you'll end with almost no monuments on the face of the earth which is the stupidest thing ever.

Froyo Love said:
Can you guys saying "No one's clean!" actually list some historical figures responsible for comparable genocide and brutality that are still given national reverence and monuments in public spaces?

Yo i hope you don't like the Colosseum, most of Roman/Greek temples and statues, the most famous paintings in the world, Pyramids etc. etc.

Almost every single object of historic relevance is been brought you by the blood and tears of slaves and poor people.

necrosis · Aug 22, 2017

i'm fine w/ this

Billy_Pilgrim · Aug 22, 2017

Literally doing what the red guards did, and for the same reasons

ClosingADoor · Aug 22, 2017

Billy_Pilgrim said:
Literally doing what the red guards did, and for the same reasons

Or those guys blowing up statues in Afghanistan and such. Pretty bad road to go down.

By all means, protest your local governments to remove it. But going out at night and smashing up whatever you feel like is bad is going to lead to trouble.

Stuff from the 1700s and such shouldn't be destroyed without a review first and some historians weighing in on what best to do with it. If tensions are high, put it in storage until a decision is made.

ahoyhoy · Aug 22, 2017

HenryGale said:
People act like this is something new.

For those unaware, it's not just about his history as a person. The whole holiday is ridiculous. Even back in the 70's it was being talked down and criticized. It wasn't even a holiday until the mid 30's and no one knew who he was even 100 years ago, other than some historians.

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...us-sailed-into-u-s-history-thanks-to-italians

It's a dumb fucking holiday, and it needs to go.

Find that hard to believe considering all the cities (including the capital), towns, and a freaking country named after him.

Seductivpancakes · Aug 22, 2017

These statues are not put up to condemn the man, but to honor and glorify him. No tears from me.

DogDude · Aug 22, 2017

I'm completely fine with tearing down any statue that honors past terrible men. Honoring isn't a part of history. If that includes past presidents too so be it.

maniac-kun · Aug 22, 2017

Is there actualy any proof that Columbus was directly involved in any of these acts? Or is this just some internet blogger / conspiracy thing?

BronsonLee · Aug 22, 2017

maniac-kun said:
Is there actualy any proof that Columbus was directly involved in any of these acts? Or is this just some internet blogger / conspiracy thing?

I mean there aren't many other suspects

Angelus Errare · Aug 22, 2017

I never understood why Columbus even got a holiday in the US. Like he was pretty much through and through a terrible person.

I mean he was so ruthless/barbaric/savage towards the Natives that the crown back home was like "dude what the fuuuuuuck?!"

Think about how fucked up you have to be for that to happen.

KingV · Aug 22, 2017

perfectchaos007 said:
Columbus day is still a national holiday fam. what should we do about this?

To be fair, thats what every grade school teacher in america taught back in my day. Its not until you get to US history in Highschool where teachers tell us the horrible truth we weren't prepared to hear as children.

We should replace Columbus Day with two separate national holidays. >

Thelonelykoopa · Aug 22, 2017

Well there is only one thing to do....replace the statue with a badass one of Leif Erikson standing over the body of Columbus.

Vanillalite · Aug 22, 2017

Froyo Love said:
You're mostly speaking in broad categories. There's a reason I was asking for specifics - which of these guys are currently taught in their countries as national heroes and were actively responsible for genocide and slavery, not just complicit? I don't have a rosy view of American presidents but I struggle to see the direct comparison when Columbus' death and misery toll is an order of magnitude beyond Andrew Jackson's Trail of Tears.

Khufu
Khafre
Menkaure

I could keep going, but I don't have the time to list all of the Egyptian Pharaohs that used slave labor. You can Google it.

The idea that your obfuscating the point on this is baffling. News flash most Kings, Queens, Emperors, Pharaohs, you name it did some horrific shit back in the day. Some just did MORE horrific shit than others.

psychowave · Aug 22, 2017

Im so fucking tired of all this concern over statues of horrible people. Fucking statues.

"Oh no someone vandalized a statue of some genocidal monster from 500 years ago". It's just a pile of rock Chad

Eidan · Aug 22, 2017

Some people on GAF sure do love shitty statues.

His Majesty · Aug 22, 2017

psychowave said:
Im so fucking tired of all this concern over statues of horrible people. Fucking statues.

"Oh no someone vandalized a statue of some genocidal monster from 500 years ago". It's just a pile of rock Chad

it's just a pile of rocks fam

NewGame · Aug 22, 2017

Yeah, lets do this! Destroy the past!!

china_cultural-revolution-burning_antique-_buddha_statues.jpg

150226-science-iraq-museum_44a748ed78a2ec5f72b1e9779e2bcb4a.jpg

Gamers are so smart. We should rule the world tbqh

Eidan · Aug 22, 2017

maniac-kun said:
Is there actualy any proof that Columbus was directly involved in any of these acts? Or is this just some internet blogger / conspiracy thing?

There were documents from the era accusing Columbus of horrific atrocities. Hell he was punished in his own time for them.

Billy_Pilgrim · Aug 22, 2017

Eidan said:
Some people on GAF sure do love shitty statues.

Rather some of us have a sense of context and perspective

Theodoricos · Aug 22, 2017

A Link to the Past said:
But his significance to history is genocide and slavery.

I'm pretty sure it's the discovery of America.

I very much doubt people look at statues of Christopher Columbus and think "hell yeah, genocide and slavery for the win!"

A Link to the Past · Aug 22, 2017

Theodoricos said:
I'm pretty sure it's the discovery of America.

I very much doubt people look at statues of Christopher Columbus and think "hell yeah, genocide and slavery for the win!"

Not sure if joking or not

ponpo · Aug 22, 2017

I think the issue is less removing statues (even destroying them) and how it's done. If the community at large either officially (votes to remove it) or unofficially (shows up in a massive crowd and takes it down) then arguably that's one thing, but you probably don't want individuals sledgehammering things alone at night.

Eidan · Aug 22, 2017

Billy_Pilgrim said:
Rather some of us have a sense of context and perspective

You do? I mean...I've just seen vandalizing a statue of Christopher Columbus likened to Nazi book burning.

ClosingADoor · Aug 22, 2017

psychowave said:
Im so fucking tired of all this concern over statues of horrible people. Fucking statues.

"Oh no someone vandalized a statue of some genocidal monster from 500 years ago". It's just a pile of rock Chad

There is a reason things like destroying statues and book burning leave a bad taste. I don't think many people have a problem with a new statue being defaced, but when the thing is over 200 years old, the context is different.

teruterubozu · Aug 22, 2017

maniac-kun said:
Is there actualy any proof that Columbus was directly involved in any of these acts? Or is this just some internet blogger / conspiracy thing?

Yes, Columbus' own journals.

Galava · Aug 22, 2017

Theodoricos said:
If we judge everyone and everything through the prism of contemporary morality, then nearly all monuments need to be destroyed and nearly all historical figures need to be condemned for one thing or another.

I'd rather we preserve our history.

This, so much. Early 16th century was still very barbaric. What happened after the discovery of America was awful, but now it serves as a "things not to repeat again" and shows us who we were in the past, even if it was wrong.

Do we also tear down the pyramids too?

Thelonelykoopa · Aug 22, 2017

Theodoricos said:
I'm pretty sure it's the discovery of America.

I very much doubt people look at statues of Christopher Columbus and think "hell yeah, genocide and slavery for the win!"

He discovered the Carribean which most in the US doesn't give a fuck about outside of Pirates. John Cabot discovered North America after Lief Erikson of course.

Apt101 · Aug 22, 2017

Discotheque said:
Lmao. Came in to this thread to make exact same reference

That's the scene when Furio jumps in right?

teruterubozu · Aug 22, 2017

Thelonelykoopa said:
He discovered the Carribean which most in the US doesn't give a fuck about outside of Pirates. John Cabot discovered North America after Lief Erikson of course.

Actually Native Americans did, like 12,000 years ago.

DrFurbs · Aug 22, 2017

No I apologize but I'm not defending anyone from history but there is a pattern recently with this. People need to chill out a little. Things happen in history both good and bad and we should recognise and accept both.

Eidan · Aug 22, 2017

Galava said:
This, so much. Early 16th century was still very barbaric. What happened after the discovery of America was awful, but now it serves as a "things not to repeat again" and shows us who we were in the past, even if it was wrong.

Do we also tear down the pyramids too?

Columbus was considered barbaric in his own time.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/07/books.spain

BlazinSkatinAxel · Aug 22, 2017

perfectchaos007 said:
Columbus day is still a national holiday fam. what should we do about this?

To be fair, thats what every grade school teacher in america taught back in my day. Its not until you get to US history in Highschool where teachers tell us the horrible truth we weren't prepared to hear as children.

Columbo Day

teruterubozu · Aug 22, 2017

Eidan said:
Columbus was considered barbaric in his own time.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/07/books.spain

Yup, many Catholic priests of the time wrote about the horrific-ness of Columbus' acts.

Thelonelykoopa · Aug 22, 2017

teruterubozu said:
Actually Native Americans did, like 12,000 years ago.

Well that's kind of a no duh very few people know of John Cabot though.

Alligatorjandro · Aug 22, 2017

One of the greatest lies in American history is that Columbus was a good person.

Croatoan · Aug 22, 2017

Remember all those delightful communist countries that murdered magnitudes more people than the Nazis ever did? This is how they started too, by destroying their history instead of learning from it. Reactionary justice from anarchists and vigilantes with a penchant for destruction is not what we need right now. All this shit will do is lead to 8 years of Trump.

Destroying monuments, even if they are for racist individuals, is just white washing American History. Let those monuments stand as daily reminders that we are better now, and how bad things were back then.

A Link to the Past · Aug 22, 2017

Thelonelykoopa said:
Well that's kind of a no duh very few people know of John Cabot though.

I think teruterubozu is just saying that calling it "discovering America" is (unintentionally) whitewashing native people

Croatoan said:
Remember all those delightful communist countries that murdered magnitudes more people than the Nazis ever did? This is how they started too, by destroying their history instead of learning from it. Reactionary justice from anarchists and vigilantes with a penchant for destruction is not what we need right now. All this shit will do is lead to 8 years of Trump.

Destroying monuments, even if they are for racist individuals, is just white washing American History. Let those monuments stand as daily reminders that we are better now, and how bad things were back then.

That doesn't make sense. We don't have monuments to Hitler in Germany and they are very aware of their history.

Eidan · Aug 22, 2017

teruterubozu said:
Yup, many Catholic priests of the time wrote about the horrific-ness of Columbus' acts.

It really aggravates me when you have people who say we need to keep statues of awful people to "remember history", while they themselves are painfully ignorant of it.

It's almost as if statues don't really teach you shit.

dallow_bg · Aug 22, 2017

televator said:
Artisans put a lot of work into confederate statues too and we all know what they were all about. How do you feel about those being up?

Just to comment on this: The confederate monuments are cookie cutter figures picked from "monument" catalogs at the time. You see many of the same monuments all over the US. Don't think that they were specially made by artists or anything.

Theodoricos · Aug 22, 2017

A Link to the Past said:
I think teruterubozu is just saying that calling it "discovering America" is (unintentionally) whitewashing native people

The historical event known as the "discovery of America/the New World" is short for "discovery of America/the New World from an European perspective". That's why it's called the New World in the first place.

RedSparrows · Aug 22, 2017

This discussion is painfully poor at times.

ultratruman · Aug 22, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
There is a reason things like destroying statues and book burning leave a bad taste. I don't think many people have a problem with a new statue being defaced, but when the thing is over 200 years old, the context is different.

The removal of statues is sometimes contextually understandable. I come from a city which used to have the world's largest statue of Stalin. It was taken down in less that 10 years during a period of so called de-Stalinsation, when Soviet countries began to face the ongoing horror and trauma of Stalin's reign.

I'm sorry, but Stalin to Prague in 1962 is not Columbus to Baltimore in 2017.

Greigor The Fellhand · Aug 22, 2017

I propose we make a national statue graveyard.

each statue is set up like a tombstone in history even the shit ones.

upstate on a farm.

Croatoan · Aug 22, 2017

A Link to the Past said:
I think teruterubozu is just saying that calling it "discovering America" is (unintentionally) whitewashing native people

That doesn't make sense. We don't have monuments to Hitler in Germany and they are very aware of their history.

Columbus != Hitler. Plus the Germans really wanted to forget their meth fueled adoration for that man after they lost and the horrors that they allowed him to do became public knowledge. Not to mention the Russians basically destroying and pillaging what they could.

ahoyhoy · Aug 22, 2017

NewGame said:
Yeah, lets do this! Destroy the past!!

Gamers are so smart. We should rule the world tbqh

There's a difference between destroying statues that glorify Christopher Columbus and burning books that discuss his history.

We can remember Columbus without a statue. We can create context through something besides a grandiose monument seemingly endorsing his actions. Perhaps a monument to the victims of Columbus instead?

ultratruman · Aug 22, 2017

ahoyhoy said:
There's a difference between destroying statues that glorify Christopher Columbus and burning books that discuss his history.

We can remember Columbus without a statue. We can create context through something besides a grandiose monument seemingly endorsing his actions. Perhaps a monument to the victims of Columbus instead?

And what about a book that 'glorified' Columbus? To the bonfire?

A Link to the Past · Aug 22, 2017

Croatoan said:
Columbus != Hitler. Plus the Germans really wanted to forget their meth fueled adoration for that man after they lost and the horrors that they allowed him to do became public knowledge. Not to mention the Russians basically destroying and pillaging what they could.

There are some descendants of Natives who would disagree with you. There is not some inherent "if we don't have statues we'll never learn anything." We can counteract this by educating people. The problem is not that the counter-culture against idolization of Confederate soldiers or Columbus or whomever, the problem is that powerful people still push the narrative of Columbus being a great man

ultratruman said:
And what about a book that 'glorified' Columbus? To the bonfire?

Firstly, why the scare quotes? These books by and large did glorify him, and intentionally so.

Secondly, no, I don't believe in book burning.

Eidan · Aug 22, 2017

ultratruman said:
And what about a book that 'glorified' Columbus? To the bonfire?

You're now comparing a statue in a public space, to a book that a person can choose to read or not read.

Skellig Gra · Aug 22, 2017

Of all the great Italians over the centuries how did this guy get picked as the symbol of Italian American pride? Leonardo Davinci anyone? Let's change it to Leo's Day.

A Link to the Past · Aug 22, 2017

Hollywood Duo said:
Of all the great Italians over the centuries how did this guy get picked as the symbol of Italian American pride? Leonardo Davinci anyone? Let's change it to Leo's Day.

DiCaprio would just take it over

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