You really are if you think it is as simple as that.
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Cavaliers have traded Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante ii, & pick
- Thread starter FZZ
- Start date
Rad Shadow
Banned
Celtics basically have a brand new starting lineup.
It looks real good on paper, but...
Where's the defense at? Lol
Hope the Heat stay hot like the end of last year.
Top 3 surprise team, spo got robbed of his coty, gets it this year.
Book it.
It looks real good on paper, but...
Where's the defense at? Lol
Hope the Heat stay hot like the end of last year.
Top 3 surprise team, spo got robbed of his coty, gets it this year.
Book it.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I'm really not and I explained as much in a subsequent post. And I love how the person trying to actually use stats and analytics and analysis over feels and intangibles is the one being accused of simplifying things.
slightconfuse
Banned
Brooklyn pick will be good when LeBron leaves
The assumption of IT and Harden normalizing their stats over 10 series of playoffs is not "analytics" by any stretch.
You're in the minority if you think it's a wash. Let's just say that. We will see how IT does next year. I don't buy the jump from great sixth man to NBA superstar PG in a season, and I don't think he will be the same guy next to LBJ.
Still, with no leverage, Cavs did well. There were some bizarre deals this off season.
Frozenprince
Banned
Not saying they aren't different. Of course they are you only play a very limited number of games over a short period of time. That's a quantifiable difference.
I'm asking, simply, why I should value this SSS as anything other than a statistical aberration. Not just "because it's tougher".
Normalization of stats across sample size is literally sports analytics 101.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I don't doubt that looking at the actual metrics and numbers over gut hot take reactions puts me in the minority. Not sure why that means anything. There's a lot of uninformed sports fans out there. But IT was better than Kyrie last year. That's simply a fact. Not sure what to tell you.
Because this is how playoffs work since day 1:
https://www.theringer.com/2017/4/14...analysts-explain-playoff-cliches-ec1074245a89
Fallout-with-swords
Banned
As a hockey fan, the NBA is fucking nuts - you would never see big players move like this and it seems to happen all the time now.
Syphon Filter
Member
LeBron will retire in Cleveland.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Lmao dafuq? Read up on some baseball analytics. It's the reason the smart/reasonable baseball people don't get hung up on small sample size stats. It's what helps the good teams project players and project regressions and progressions. And its the kind of shit that is extending to basketball. The good front offices are not sitting around worried if a guy is "clutch" or not, I can assure you.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
He suspects LeBron is leaving after this season and the team will go to crap.
Crazymoogle
Member
If it was just that he would have made his trade demand next summer.
Making it now and opting out of the inevitable Dubs/Cavs IV can only legitimize the story the press ran with, that he wanted his own team and not a LeBron team.
If you asked every GM who they would prefer to have, you think they pick IT? Hard to believe. You talk about the problem of relying on small sample sizes yet seem to put great weight on IT's 2016-17 season. Each team asks for much different things from their player, operate in much different circumstances, so it's hard to compare them straight up as you seem to want to do. We will see after this year.
Ninja Scooter
Member
The Celtics didn't trade IT for Kyrie straight up. Also an entire season is not a small sample size.
agentofatlas
Member
Lebron's non commitment to the Cavs maybe but ultimately I think Kyrie just want too see how good he really is or how good can he be, which isn't a bad reason imo.
Frozenprince
Banned
Especially since he's been slagging on Irving for YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARS now.
ForsakenLotus
Member
Just curious, is there an analysis of the typical difference between regular season efficiency and playoff efficiency?
He transformed into a huge Kyrie homer (better than John Wall, top 8 player in the league) the exact moment Kyrie asked for a trade away from LeBron. It was astonishing. Like, I don't understand how you can have no semblance of self-awareness about this stuff.
CanUKlehead
Member
Too much just for Kyrie; would've held out for Cle's second rounder in 2019 or sth, or not have given up the Brooklyn pick.
Still, I'd rather try to resign KI than resign IT at the end of this season, so.
Still, I'd rather try to resign KI than resign IT at the end of this season, so.
Frozenprince
Banned
Having a staggering lack of self awareness is a Bill Simmons staple tho.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I mean, that's not true. I don't listen to many of Simmons' podcasts, so I won't swear to you that he didn't backtrack ever, but dude came around on Kyrie more than a year ago. He converted prior to the 2016 championship.
Edit: It was even further back than that. It started after he went for 57 in San Antonio in 2015.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Zach Lowe posted some thoughts.
I'm not talking about feels or intangibles either. The way the game is played in the playoffs is measurably different. That's the difference I am talking about.
Pupperbabysassy
Member
This is a great deal for Boston. They got rid of a guy they didn't want to pay due to his height for probably the most clutch guard in the league. Watch out for Kyrie in the MVP race next year.
darkazcura
Member
IT playing worse in the playoffs is overblown. In 2015, he just joined the Celtics two months prior, and the Celtics played a playground band of ball because they had no practice time to really get him integrated into the team. It worked until the playoffs and teams clogged the paint because the Celtics had no shooters.
In 2016, IT played well enough..roller coaster ride, but again, the Celtics had no shooting due to injuries to AB, Olynyk, and Crowder hobbling. The Hawks clogged the paint and trapped IT because again the Celtics were easy to game plan for with no offense outside IT.
Then in 2017, IT finally had his coming out party in the playoffs and did really well despite his sister's passing.
IT, if healthy, will only play better with players like Lebron and Love attracting attention and allowing IT to play in single coverage.
IT was incredible in the 4th last year.
warriors broke the league so it could be better.
the only thing that gives me pause about the trade is that kyrie is injury prone himself. otherwise, he's the most dangerous iso scorer in the league, and a good shooter.
I don't listen to Bill's stuff consistently so I'll defer to you, but the earlier Kyrie trade podcast and the one he did tonight, both of which I actually did listen to, were pretty fucking goofy.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I hate the term "injury prone"
unless we're talking about Mr. Glass Derrick Rose.
Injuries happen, and it isn't like Kyrie has had a pattern of the same thing.
Unlike Mr. Glass Derrick Rose.
Randolph Freelander
Member
So we're two inconsistent listeners.
Fake edit, since I tracked it down before posting: While still at the mothership, Simmon's last trade value column was broken up into 87 parts and took 6 months to post. This is what he wrote about Irving following the 57 point game:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-value-sneak-peek-no-10-kyrie-irving/
Frozenprince
Banned
Damned knicks
Wish they could have done SOMETHING around Melo for Kyrie. BOS overpaid especially with that damn BK pick!
lol Melo ain't worth a 4 for $4
Hyperactivity
Banned
You mean after the hip injury he suffered in the Washington series that later worsened to where Boston finally had to declare him unplayable after the first two games?
I recommend you through IT in the playoffs, game by game, again. He doesn't really drop-off, he had some incredible performances this year (especially that 51 point game)
When IT was off the court, the Celtics regularly failed to score.
When LeBron was off the court but Kyrie on the court, the Cavs went to utter shit.
I haven't seen people who think Kyrie is that much better than IT address why the Cavs went to such lows when Kyrie was the number 1 option on the floor.
Monochromaticx
Member
the kyrie to spurs dream is dead
Hyperactivity
Banned
It's also worth noting that Kyrie was terrible for 50% of the playoffs last year. Like, the Cavs were better with Deron Williams' corpse out there until the Boston series. The narrative that Kyrie is unstoppable throughout the playoffs has as much merit as the narrative that IT is unplayable in the playoffs. Neither stands up to even a modicum of scrutiny. They are both largely the same guys as they were throughout the year.
Bill Simmons's journalism level is questionable for sure, but watch how the king of incredibly stupid analogies, Colin Cowherd will twist this as a transformative deal for the Cavs, as Lebron now playing with a 5'9 guy and two scrubs is now a thing.
Dip in all stats across the board. Yes, he had an incredible and emotional series against Washington, but that's about it in 3 consecutive postseason series with Celtics.
Vicetrailia
Member
Celtics overpaid.
arts&crafts
Member
Why do people keep noting IT's hip when Irving has been injury prone for years and is 25.
Oh crap just checked and Irving only has 1 year left on his deal (+ a player option), so if the Celtics flop they could end up with nothing after this year.
Oh crap just checked and Irving only has 1 year left on his deal (+ a player option), so if the Celtics flop they could end up with nothing after this year.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
LeBraun Strowman