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LordRaptor · Nov 23, 2017

atpbx said:
Lets not take this down the please think of the children bullshit path.

Cant we all just agree that loot boxes and micro transacrions in full priced games are a fucking cancer and they need to die.

I disagree - I think the way Overwatch handles lootcrates is the best possible scenario for a multiplayer game.
- levels don't mean shit; level ups are just a free customisation. If you want faster or more customisations, you can just buy a lootbox, but not buying anything will still be delivering them to your regularly just for playing, and they literally don't affect gameplay.
Contrast this to something like CoDs progression system, where its literally "Want a shotgun? Fuck you, go and grind 500 headshots or whatever befoe you're allowed to use a shotgun"

- The games regularly updated, whether thats in minor ways such as rebalances, medium ways like new maps or new customisations, or major ways like new heroes or new game modes. Everyone gets equal access.
Contrast that to the supposed "good old days" of selling maps piecemeal and splitting up the playerbase between the haves and the have nots. And when they've wrung as much cash out of the map buyers as they can, just release a 'sequel' game and start all over again instead of just updating that base game.

That's beyond any metagame elements, like having an ongoing "service" game providing a steady and secure occupation for the people working on it, and maintaining a certain level of quality, because start half assing those updates and people will just move along

MrTroubleMaker · Nov 23, 2017

:O wow

Nimoy · Nov 23, 2017

DryvBy said:
I don't understand how lootcrates are a big issue, but F2P/P2W hasn't been a government issue for so long.

Animal Crossing just came out and also features lot of "oh, you want to speed up time? Go ahead and pay money to do so."

Microtransactions aren't great either way but the issue here isn't spending real money, it's the randomization of what you're buying. In Animal Crossing it costs real money for in-game currency and then you can buy whatever you want within the game. In Battlefront you spend real money and have no idea what you are going to get in the game, it might be amazing or it might be useless & leave you feeling like you wasted money and/or need to spend more real money to get what you want.

Also, Animal Crossing is free to download.

atpbx · Nov 23, 2017

LordRaptor said:
I disagree - I think the way Overwatch handles lootcrates is the best possible scenario for a multiplayer game.
- levels don't mean shit; level ups are just a free customisation. If you want faster or more customisations, you can just buy a lootbox, but not buying anything will still be delivering them to your regularly just for playing, and they literally don't affect gameplay.
Contrast this to something like CoDs progression system, where its literally "Want a shotgun? Fuck you, go and grind 500 headshots or whatever befoe you're allowed to use a shotgun"

- The games regularly updated, whether thats in minor ways such as rebalances, medium ways like new maps or new customisations, or major ways like new heroes or new game modes. Everyone gets equal access.
Contrast that to the supposed "good old days" of selling maps piecemeal and splitting up the playerbase between the haves and the have nots. And when they've wrung as much cash out of the map buyers as they can, just release a 'sequel' game and start all over again instead of just updating that base game.

That's beyond any metagame elements, like having an ongoing "service" game providing a steady and secure occupation for the people working on it, and maintaining a certain level of quality, because start half assing those updates and people will just move along

If we absolutely must have microtransactions they could just out right sell the cosmetics.

”Loot boxes for cosmetics" its still bullshit, just put a product or item up for sale and sell it.

OuterLimits · Nov 23, 2017

Hawaii has always been pretty anti gambling. Which is a bit odd since they are a blue state, but on this issue align themselves with very religious red states like Alabama, and Utah.

manw20 · Nov 23, 2017

Alebelly said:
No one wants government regulation, but when you shit the bed as hard as EA did it seems regulating bodies aren't certain the consumer should pick it up

Speak for yourself, I definitely think this is something the government should regulate.

MilkyJoe · Nov 23, 2017

atpbx said:
If we absolutely must have microtransactions they could just out right sell the cosmetics.

Loot boxes for cosmetics its still bullshit, just put a product or item up for sale and sell it.

Exactly, people that defend randoms are fucked in the head.

Memorabilia · Nov 23, 2017

MilkyJoe said:
Exactly, people that defend randoms are fucked in the head.

There's at least a couple in here who you're going to trigger if you're not careful. Lol

ZenOfThunder · Nov 23, 2017

Alright, I get that EA sucks and loot boxes suck

But can someone please explain to me how buying loot boxes is closer to gambling than buying a pack of Yu-Gi-Oh cards from Target

I have been racking my brain but I don't see any real difference. Will passing a judgment on loot crates as gambling lead to repercussions on packs of real life cards and blind box toys?

kkg1701 · Nov 23, 2017

ZenOfThunder said:
Alright, I get that EA sucks and loot boxes suck

But can someone please explain to me how buying loot boxes is closer to gambling than buying a pack of Yu-Gi-Oh cards from Target

I have been racking my brain but I don't see any real difference. Will passing a judgment on loot crates as gambling lead to repercussions on packs of real life cards and blind box toys?

Listen to this:
https://headgum.com/robot-congress/robot-congress-52-are-loot-boxes-gambling-ft-marc-whipple

Chuckie · Nov 23, 2017

ZenOfThunder said:
Alright, I get that EA sucks and loot boxes suck

But can someone please explain to me how buying loot boxes is closer to gambling than buying a pack of Yu-Gi-Oh cards from Target

I have been racking my brain but I don't see any real difference. Will passing a judgment on loot crates as gambling lead to repercussions on packs of real life cards and blind box toys?

A huge difference is that you can trade or sell your Yu-Gi-Oh cards. If the outcome of a lootbox is pure shite, you're stuck with it.

MilkyJoe · Nov 23, 2017

Memorabilia said:
There's at least a couple in here who you're going to trigger if you're not careful. Lol

It's fucking daft though. If you want the purple lightsabre why would you want to pay to play a game of chance, over and over, until you get what you want, rather than just say "1 purple lightsabre please" pay for it and it's yours?!?!?.. You wouldn't go to the supermarket and pay a member of staff to walk around the store dropping randoms into your cart.

Sesha · Nov 23, 2017

"Vampires aren't bad. It's your own fault if you get bitten."

Hoshigumi · Nov 23, 2017

LordRaptor said:
I disagree - I think the way Overwatch handles lootcrates is the best possible scenario for a multiplayer game.

Or y'know, just don't have loot crates at all.

Woo-Fu · Nov 23, 2017

Hoshigumi said:
Or y'know, just don't have loot crates at all.

From a practical standpoint, what is the difference between a loot crate and a random drop ingame? I mean, sure there is a difference when you start selling them but that is a separate issue.

I think people need to be more specific about the problems they have with lootcrates instead of just saying "lootcrates bad, mkay." Random drops are a staple of the RPG genre, after all, and I wouldn't want to play an RPG without some good randomized loot options.

Rafus · Nov 23, 2017

atpbx said:
If we absolutely must have microtransactions they could just out right sell the cosmetics.

Loot boxes for cosmetics its still bullshit, just put a product or item up for sale and sell it.

I think they should do booth, free lootboxes earned by gameplay, and the option to pay money directly for some items that you want, like: "Mercy's Halloween pack", with all the costumes, sprays voicelines and so.
But not PAY for random items in lootboxes.

MilkyJoe · Nov 23, 2017

Rafus said:
I think they should do booth, free lootboxes earned by gameplay, and the option to pay money directly for some items that you want, like: "Mercy's Halloween pack", with all the costumes, sprays voicelines and so.
But not PAY for random items in lootboxes.

Because they will tear the arse out of it, like EA here!

radewagon · Nov 23, 2017

Woo-Fu said:
From a practical standpoint, what is the difference between a loot crate and a random drop ingame? I mean, sure there is a difference when you start selling them but that is a separate issue.

I think people need to be more specific about the problems they have with lootcrates instead of just saying "lootcrates bad, mkay." Random drops are a staple of the RPG genre, after all, and I wouldn't want to play an RPG without some good randomized loot options.

I've been thinking about that too.You already mentioned that selling them is a separate issue, which is good. That IS a separate issue. Monetizing any randomly generated item is definitely entering gambling territory.

But, let's get back to the fact that many people just plumb don't like loot boxes as a game mechanic. And I'm with them. I hate loot boxes. I also don't mind random drops. I think there are 2 key differences.

The first is frequency. I can't take two steps in Diablo or Borderlands without picking up a random drop. It happens often enough that it becomes mundane. So, not getting something awesome isn't really a big deal. Conversely, opening a crate takes more time to do and the whole experience of opening one is time consuming. The bigger the setup, the bigger the letdown. Sure, the wins are nice, but they don't happen often enough.

The second reason is that loot crates typically have specific things that you want. I don't remember ever playing Diablo and thinking "I want (insert specific item) from this enemy corpse." I just wanted cool stuff. And half the fun was seeing if what I got was useful to me. Often times, I got a cool stat boost I didn't even know I wanted. With Diablo, the items themselves and the system for acquiring them were both randomized. The system matched the reward. With loot crates, there are often very specific items that one desires. In Overwatch (which people keep pretending is the "right" way to do loot crates), not getting a specific skin can be a real let down. People want those skins! So, each time you don't get it, you have failed. Lootcrates feel unnecessary because, unlike random RPG drops, the actual rewards themselves aren't all that random so they don't need a randomized system to hand them out to the player.

LordRaptor · Nov 23, 2017

atpbx said:
If we absolutely must have microtransactions they could just out right sell the cosmetics.

Loot boxes for cosmetics its still bullshit, just put a product or item up for sale and sell it.

Hoshigumi said:
Or y'know, just don't have loot crates at all.

No, because lootcrates allow for ongoing purchases, not one and done.
People that are really into a game can keep spending money on it in such a system. People who don't really care that much don't have to spend anything.

What is your better system for everyone?
Sure, you only have to buy the one specific DLC you want for $3 or whatever suits you, but lets pretend that you can connect the dots from "game I like" to "studio who makes games I like" to "profitable studio continues to make games I like" or "profitable studio continues to maintain game I like".

Like, all of this literally started because studios were literally dying putting out content, that people were basically renting from gamestop, while the studios saw the sales of one game that gamestop would flip up to 10 times over while making huge profits that never went anywhere near the people who in any way contributed to making that game.

Thats why we are where we are. All of this shit is just iterating on "project ten dollar".
Like, don't fucking complain about the situation that gamers are hugely complicit in creating.
Accept that that is the market reality of gaming right now.

What is your 'better' solution, that is not solely from the perspective of being a veruca salt.

radewagon said:
let's get back to the fact that many people just plumb don't like loot boxes as a game mechanic. And I'm with them. I hate loot boxes.

Most people don't mind them at all.
That is literally the reason why the vocal minority are trying all sorts of underhanded shit to get rid of them, like acting like political pressure groups, and pretending that they are acting on some kind of moral imperative that they don't actually have.
Because most people have accepted them and don't have a problem with them.

radewagon said:
The second reason is that loot crates typically have specific things that you want. I don't remember ever playing Diablo and thinking "I want (insert specific item) from this enemy corpse." I just wanted cool stuff. And half the fun was seeing if what I got was useful to me. Often times, I got a cool stat boost I didn't even know I wanted.

But your anecdote is entirely arbitrary.
Many people doing loot runs on any loot based RPG are doing loot runs for specific loot.
Like, thats the entire reason raid groups in games like WoW exist, and there are entire supplementary game systems solely designed around trying to split up loot so that people looking for the one specific set piece can get it.
Likewise many people using lootboxes don't care what the specific customisation is - sure, they'd prefer a skin for a hero they play as often, and they might have a preferred skin within that selection, but most people approach it as "what stuff am I gonna get this time?"

the distinction you have made between loot drops and loot crates is entirely subjective and arbitrary. You see that, right?

Martinski43 · Nov 23, 2017

Well if your Star Wars game cant turn a profit maybe the game is shit??

Loot boxes was not implemented into Battlefront 2 because they were afraid of losing money on their investment and DICE were risking a shutdown.

LordRaptor · Nov 23, 2017

Martinski43 said:
Well if your Star Wars game cant turn a profit maybe the game is shit??

Loot boxes was not implemented into Battlefront 2 because they were afraid of losing money on their investment and DICE were risking a shutdown.

EA being greedy cunts isn't a lootbox issue though.
Its an EA are greedy cunts issue.

radewagon · Nov 23, 2017

LordRaptor said:
No, because lootcrates allow for ongoing purchases, not one and done.
People that are really into a game can keep spending money on it in such a system.

It's funny that you don't see that as the problem. Many gamers, myself included, see the "games as service" model as something that is very detrimental to the future of gaming.

LordRaptor said:
Like, all of this literally started because studios were literally dying putting out content, that people were basically renting from gamestop, while the studios saw the sales of one game that gamestop would flip up to 10 times over while making huge profits that never went anywhere near the people who in any way contributed to making that game.

And yet good games still made money. Studios were blaming the used market to shift blame away from what was becoming a cookie-cutter style of development. Games were being homogenized in a failed attempt to reach larger markets. The end result was that these marginally different titles had trouble standing out in a crowded market of similar games. Music, movies, cars, houses, boats, and many other products still manage(d) to make profits regardless of the existence of a used market. The same is true for games.

LordRaptor said:
Thats why we are where we are. All of this shit is just iterating on "project ten dollar".
Like, don't fucking complain about the situation that gamers are hugely complicit in creating.
Accept that that is the market reality of gaming right now.

I'll agree with you that we are complicit. But not because of the used market. That's silly. We are complicit because we allowed it to become profitable and we allowed it to become acceptable. Now many are, rightfully, backpedaling on those choices.

LordRaptor said:
What is your 'better' solution, that is not solely from the perspective of being a veruca salt.

If by Veruca Salt, you mean the whole "wanting everything your way" thing, then I'm not sure I understand the negative connotation. We gamers are the consumers of a product. If the product does not offer what we want for a reasonable price, then we simply won't buy it. And we don't need to worry about the profitability. Quite literally, that's not our problem. If companies can publish games like Wolfenstein, Horizon, Breath of the Wild, Shadow of Mordor, etc without the need for endless monetization, then clearly, business models for making money without loot box-style systems are not impossible to utilize.

I mean, honestly, that's the silver bullet right there. If these systems were actually necessary for game development to turn a profit, then we would never have games that buck that trend. But, realistically, such business models are completely unnecessary for full-priced titles (free to play, quite plainly, needs them) and the argument that they are is constantly refuted by the success of games that don't include such monetization systems.

What's clearly happening is that game developers/publishers are facing the question of "do we want a set amount of money for making this game or do we want endless money for making this game?" They are choosing the latter not out of necessity but out of a desire to get more money than just what they need to turn a decent profit. It's a cynical choice for full-priced titles and it's obvious that they have, with the loot crates, crossed a line with a majority of consumers. Don't feel bad for them, though. They will find a better solution that isn't so outwardly greedy and/or detrimental to a game's design.

LordRaptor said:
Most people don't mind them at all.
...
Because most people have accepted them and don't have a problem with them.

That's definitely the assumption you are making.

LordRaptor · Nov 23, 2017

radewagon said:
we don't need to worry about the profitability. Quite literally, that's not our problem. If companies can publish games like Wolfenstein, Horizon, Breath of the Wild, Shadow of Mordor, etc without the need for endless monetization, then clearly, business models for making money without loot box-style systems are not impossible to utilize.

If you want studios that make games you like to continue existing, then yeah, you do actually need to worry about their profitability.
Take out Horizon and BOTW, because those are funded by a platform owner, and you have left;
Wolfenstein 2 (flopped in NPDs)
Shadow Of Mordor - previous poster child for the 'lootcrates ruin gaming' brigade

You can't just say "anyone doing this is greedy, its not like they need that money to survive" if you don't understand the costs involved.
Because for every 1 example of a game that succeeded not doing this, there are 10 examples of games that failed.

radewagon said:
That's definitely the assumption you are making.

No, not really

PC and mobile side of things? Pretty much all lootcrates.
Console side? Aggressive P2W MTX and lootcrates.

Alebelly · Nov 24, 2017

Kamina said:

I apologize, no excuse really, lol

qa_engineer · Nov 25, 2017

Memorabilia said:
Good. EA screwed the pooch hard on this deal. I can't figure out how the execs actually thought this P2W lootbox bullshit was going to skate by. Did they really believe most people would just grin and eat the shit sandwich? Mind boggling.

I still haven't opened my Xbone copy of the game bc I've been waiting to see how things develop. I've got 45 days to return it if need be.

Well yeah, they did. that's why they released the game in that state. The practice has gone unchecked since forever so EA thought it would be a quick win. But since this is a high profile game things quickly changed.

cartman414 · Nov 25, 2017

If this means the slow decline of gacha in mobile, I'm all for it.

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