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Supporting abusive work environments - Why I wont be buying Red Dead 2

The Hermit

Member
As someone who owns a successful (non-gaming) software company, the extent to which game software companies have convinced themselves it is somehow a special snowflake where incessant overtime is both necessary and effective, is maddening.

It's exploitative. Full stop. When I visit a university to speak, I always ask a show of hands of who went into CS to make games, and 2/3rds of them shoot up. I then spend a few minutes explaining that if everyone wants the same job, the industry has all the leverage. You can make games, but you'll do so on shitty terms that'll chew you up and spit you out.

Or you could just make boring normal software and enter one of the most prosperous classes of non-inherited wealth in the history of humankind, guarded against almost all the macroeconomic forces threatening your cohort generation.

While boycotts would be effective if they were widespread, I'm not sure it'd be as easy (given the ratio of devs to users) as convincing 20-something dudes that gamedev jobs are a suckers game and boycotting their employment so that the market balances out and decent terms are feasible. (Also won't happen because naive 20-year-old men are a renewable resource.)

Amazing post, especially the last part.

I think this kind of view about the megacorps is one of the most important things we have to learn and teach in our generation.

I checked about Retro and just 3 people posted. They said the work conditions are ok, but the management are kinda lost.
 

quesalupa

Member
I'm not unsupportive of your stance OP, but a lot of fucked up stuff goes on in the consumer market. Phones, chocolate, and coffee are linked to slavery.
 

StereoVsn

Member
You do realize that it's bad there as well right?

The problem with consumer electronics is that virtually everything is manufactured in either China or South Korea (which may be better but not by much). Unless you find an odd item that's made in Japan, there is no other choice.

So say you need a good smartphone device since it's almost a necessity now days. What are your choices? Unfortunately there are almost none unless you find a Sony phone that is manufactured in Japan, which I don't think even they do anymore as it's all China. Not that Japan is great about working conditions or work-life balance but its better then alternatives I guess.

Unlike electronics/computers/etc... there are some choices around "luxury" items.

Edit: For Coffee at least, there are ways to make better choices on what you are buying, but it will be more expensive.
 
I used to work at their New York City office, and one day, due to life stuff (surgery of a loved one) and just a general unwillingness to continue the cycle, I stopped doing crunch after 4 years of working there.

It was not met well.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Above I said I agreed with OP about a lot, yet this is a hypocritical, pathetic way to look at the situation and I totally disagree.

Seems odd to take such a stance on a luxury item, especially when OP himself admits to own other articles which are manufactured in even worse conditions or environments. To each his own I guess, although it should be noted if enough people acted like that and the game didn't sell enough, the studio would get closed and the developers let go. My personal viewpoint is that if you want the game, buy it, but try and make your voice be heard regarding concerns about the work environment. Send emails to management, or Rockstar's HR department or TT or whoever you think would be of help.

These are fair comments, but my point is that yeah, we all own things that were made in bad environments and I understand that I myself am guilty of it. I still want to draw a line somewhere and, seeing as how this is taking place in the industry I work in (as stated in the OP) it affects me more than other people (for instance, I would love to work on RDR but now I know I never will).

SteelAttack, your second comment. The problem is that theyre more likely to miss deadlines BECAUSE of the way they treat their employees. Less crunch and better working conditions are better for productivity.
 

Loxley

Member
We've heard similar complaints about a number of AAA developers. It fucking sucks, and I feel for the artists, programmers, etc who are taken advantage of - but it's simply a reality of the current AAA industry. Almost to the point where I feel like you have to have some idea of what you're signing up for when you join a team of several hundred people. You're a replaceable cog in a giant wheel, and you will probably be taken advantage of at some point - particularly during the infamous "crunch" periods. And still, even with the knowledge of how bad it can get, folks still apply for and accept these jobs.

The day we finally see industry-wide change will probably be when the video game industry actually unionizes.
 

Chris1

Member
Glassdoor reviews can be easily faked

But it wouldn't surprise me. Sounds exactly like working in an AAA studio
 

Onivulk

Banned
So you would have all of their overtime and hard work mean nothing?

I plan to enjoy what they have worked so hard to make.

Im not trolling. I think there must be some other way this issue can be fixed though. This seems counter-intuitive. The employees need to take this matter into their own hands. Perhaps a strike is in order.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Crunch is present in just about any industry. It is the way the corporate world works. Is it fair? Absolutely not but there is only so much you can do to avoid it, especially when you run a lean shop. Heck even a well staffed but poorly managed project will yield the same results which is often what happens with Ubi or EA.
 
Ex-employees have said they'd rather be homeless than work for Rockstar San Diego. It's a terrible place to be. They've done little to improve it, if anything.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
As others note, it's just capitalism and consumerism. It's all about profits for those who own the companies, happiness and welfare of the workers be damned. Long hours, often in salaried positions where there's no overtime. Reduction/loss of benefits, pensions/retirement plans. Non-compete clauses making it hard for many employees in various industries to find another job. And on and on. It's just a terrible time to be an employee, makes me grateful I went the academia route--pay isn't the greatest, but my work-life balance is top notch, especially post-tenure.

There's not a lot we can do about it other than try to be less consumerist and spend less money on things we don't need. Targeting purchases away from certain companies that are among the worst offenders like the OP is doing can help as well--especially if people write the company about why they aren't buying. But at the end of the day it will still sell millions and the few lost sales aren't enough for the stakeholders to care.

It all definitely has me trying to be less consumerist and spend more of my time and money making memories rather than buying/consuming things. More time spent with my fiance, more doing things outside, more going to concerts and other events, more traveling etc. rather than buying more gadgets, games etc.
 

sentry65

Member
Speaking as a CG artist, this is not the consumer's battle. These studios will never be short of a long line of people out the door who want to work there.

Some big-name companies,like Pixar and Dreamworks go so far as to low-ball salaries compared to others while still having extended crunch times, and that still doesn't stop people from wanting to work there.


I'm sure the artists appreciate your concern, but it's not your problem.

If you want the game and can afford it, buy it.
If you want to help the artists and developers, then buy more indie games. At least that will create more viable alternatives to AAA game development and level the playing field. If other companies are able to rise up to AA status, that will make the industry healthier for workers.

Surgeons during their residency are expected to put in similar hours in working and studying. They know what they're getting into and so do game devs when they sign up with a AAA game company.
 

Drake

Member
Remember Team Bondi and L.A. Noire, weren't they were in crunch time for over a year? Like people working 12 hours a day 7 days a week for a year straight. I know Rockstar didn't develop it, but they did publish it and help out with some of the development.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
How did you post this thread? Using an iphone? A desktop? macbook? Just where do you draw the line?
 
These are fair comments, but my point is that yeah, we all own things that were made in bad environments and I understand that I myself am guilty of it. I still want to draw a line somewhere and, seeing as how this is taking place in the industry I work in (as stated in the OP) it affects me more than other people (for instance, I would love to work on RDR but now I know I never will).

SteelAttack, your second comment. The problem is that theyre more likely to miss deadlines BECAUSE of the way they treat their employees. Less crunch and better working conditions are better for productivity.
Completely agreed. There is no excuse for the kind of working environment these studios and their parent companies are fostering, and it's not only detrimental towards individuals and their quality of life, but to the industry as a whole as well. I understand how this particular issue resonates much more with you and I wouldn't want to come across as unsupportive, unreasonable or cynic because of that.

In retrospective I think bringing the iphone bit up (by myself and others) as proof of hypocrisy or dissonance from your part has been unreasonable. Like another poster said before, we all would be hard pressed to find someone among us who does not own a single item or service that is exempt from questionable practices, yet we still strive and push within our means for better conditions and healtier practices everywhere. I apologize for that.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Might as well not stop buying your games from retailers that treat their employees shitty as well. Why should it be limited to developers?
 

Goron2000

best junior ever
To add to the pile, I also know people that have worked at Rockstar (North specifically) and these reviews are not just a few bad eggs spreading lies. That company runs people into the ground and spits them out and they do it all on the foundation that you work for Rockstar and should be grateful that you do.
 

Apocryphon

Member
So we are helping the people working on these games by... not buying the games they worked on? If the game doesn't sell... won't they get canned?
 
So we are helping the people working on these games by... not buying the games they worked on? If the game doesn't sell... won't they get canned?

Thats the problem, theres not alot we can do as consumers. The developers are going to have to coordinate amongst themselves and negotiate better terms like the voice actors did.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
What's with this idea that because a lot of industries are awful, that OP shouldn't take a personal stance on this individual case?

So many ubiquitous products are manufactured in terrible work conditions that according to the standards of some here, one would have to divest oneself completely from society in order to justify not buying a video game because of the conditions of one studio.
 
If you care about abusive work environments I hope you don't buy basically any electronics from China, better not shop at Walmart at all, and be sure where your produce is grown.
 

nacimento

Member
Isn't Rockstar notorious for bad working conditions even compared to their AAA peers? I have the feeling this is not the first thread or article on that topic.
 
You are choosing an interesting line to draw OP. You have a problem buying a video game produced from overworked devs.... but no problem purchasing a smartphone made in a factory surrounded by suicide nets?
 

tomhan

Member
What's with this idea that because a lot of industries are awful, that OP shouldn't take a personal stance on this individual case?

So many ubiquitous products are manufactured in terrible work conditions that according to the standards of some here, one would have to divest oneself completely from society in order to justify not buying a video game because of the conditions of one studio.

I absolutely think the OP is fine in taking a personal stance on this individual case but at the same time needs to realize that the stance is hypocritical, ineffectual and for those reasons they don't deserve any credit for taking this type of stance.
 

Selkies!

Member
Find it very weird that the first response out of some of you was to immediately dismiss the legitimacy of glassdoor reviews. I work for a software company around the same size as Rockstar San Diego that has ~80 ratings that's currently sitting at a 4.9. There are plenty of people who are very happy to leave a good review for an employer that treats them well, myself included. This glassdoor page is absolutely embarrassing.
 
I remember it very well how the girlfriends/wives of the employees back then went against Rockstar. The things they said sounded horrible. My hope is that things have greatly improved there.

I assume what the OP posted is from those years?
 
You are choosing an interesting line to draw OP. You have a problem buying a video game produced from overworked devs.... but no problem purchasing a smartphone made in a factory surrounded by suicide nets?
So we can't even begin to talk about this because almost everything is made via exploitative means??
 

fhqwhgads

Member
So many lazy responses in this thread. "Lol don't buy anything then"
It comes off as making an excuse for the shitty conditions that we know the gaming industry has become infamous with and just because it's not the only market where it happens doesn't mean someone like OP can bring the issues to light and make a choice in protest.

We've known for a long time that the AAA game industry is a ticking time bomb, games are costing more to develop and are expected to take even shorter to come out, especially with the popularity of annual franchises. Sometime or another it's going to all come crashing down because such a model isn't gonna sustain itself forever, and the more than these stories of terrible conditions and horrible work rate expectations come to light, then maybe we'll come closer to something happening about it.
 

Marcel

Member
All entertainment industries exploit the worker at some level or another. You may as well stop consuming media altogether if you're going to make some hollow MoralGAF stand about it.
 

MikeyB

Member
I would prefer increased transparency into these conditions. Poor working conditions would trump review scores for me.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
All entertainment industries exploit the worker at some level or another. You may as well stop consuming media altogether if you're going to make some hollow MoralGAF stand about it.

So have all of the morals in the world, or have none? Seriously?
 
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