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openrob · Apr 29, 2017

OP - you are smart for realising it.
The follow your dreams mantra findings just seems like a way of getting the Masses to work harder for the same pay. Same capitalist bullshit.

Because the 1% work so much harder than everyone else.

Saying that, I do think there's a fine line because you do have to work hard for things that you want - I think it's just realising that working hard doesn't equal success, but success really comes without it.
Working hard for a better education and getting a better job doesn't come easy.

E.g. 6 years ago i had no education, not even a GCSE and was on benefits. Product of my environment. But i looked for opportunities, got a degree and am doing pretty well now.

The problem comes from people who had it easy, and tell others they aren't working hard enough whilst not taking into account the shit that society throws at people. Sometimes the opportunities just are not there. Sometimes there is just too little pay for too little time.

III-V · Apr 29, 2017

Is there any point to avoid following your dreams? thats the quickest way for them to never happen.

The idea is that you have agency to change your status. No-one is going to do it for you. If you are lucky, there will be those people who can help you along the way.

Hoo-doo · Apr 29, 2017

People should not follow their dreams just to reach vague goals of success and monetary wealth.

People should follow their dreams so that they end up somewhere in life where they are happy with who they are and what they are doing.
That's vastly more superior measure of success in my opinion. Money isn't fucking everything.

So no, never stop following your dreams. Cheesy as it sounds: If there's a will, there's a way.

Napoleonthechimp · Apr 29, 2017

halfbeast said:
what was the boulder?

What was my obstacle? No industry in my local area. No money to relocate to where the jobs are. No professional contacts. No support available from my family to get around it. And little to no temporary jobs to help me earn money.

I built my own brand, my own website, learnt about relevant on-set roles from every free resource I could find, and marketed myself online and during in-person networking events.

For reference: No one in my family works in the media industry and so not a single one was able to give me any pointers.

Turbo Killer · Apr 29, 2017

There is also the matter of what race you are that has an affect on this mantra, right? Look at how long it took to get a black president and what happened afterwards.

You know even Obama was half white, so he doesn't really count either.

Joyful · Apr 29, 2017

follow your dreams is fine
it doesn't imply success

you should definitely do the things you want instead of some shitty stuff you dont care about. though thats adulthood in a nutshell really

halfbeast · Apr 29, 2017

Napoleonthechimp said:
What was my obstacle? No industry in my local area. No money to relocate to where the jobs are. No professional contacts. No support available from my family to get around it. And little to no temporary jobs to help me earn money.

I built my own brand, my own website, learnt about relevant on-set roles from every free resource I could find, and marketed myself online and during in-person networking events.

For reference: No one in my family works in the media industry and so not a single one was able to give me any pointers.

so, yeah, much better story than the one with the boulder.

Epiphyte · Apr 29, 2017

Turbo Killer said:
There is also the matter of what race you are that has an affect on this mantra, right? Look at how long it took to get a black president and what happened afterwards.

You know even Obama was half white, so he doesn't really count either.

WTF

Didn't realize Cornel West posted on GAF

oxrock · Apr 29, 2017

Moose Biscuits said:
I hate the phrase because I never had dreams. Not feasible ones. I wanted to be a robot, but that's not happening. Nowadays the closest thing to a dream I have is to live in somewhere like Maine with a basement full of guns, but since I live in the UK with barely any income that doesn't seem achievable either.

Nowadays I just play videogames and eat unhealthy foods while I wait for death.

People who are motivational speakers, who say "follow your dreams" or that one cunt who says "DO WHAT YOU CAN'T" (I bet someone's linked that fucking video at least once in this thread) make me want to do harm, to myself or to them.

Honestly, I'm a little worried about why you want to live in Maine with a basement full of guns. You sound a tad of your rocker already but I'll run with this. Obviously being a robot isn't entirely on the table atm, I guess you could chop off limbs and get less functional robotic replacements but I would highly discourage it. The Maine dream should be manageable with steady effort and time invested though. You have to make yourself manageable goals that will eventually lead you to your destination. Your first goal could be to research better paying jobs in fields that you already have an interest in/have experience in/or already excel at. The following goal could be to find training in your area for that profession if applicable, search for job listing you're qualified for, etc. Save up money, do some research on how to immigrate to the US. Probably want to start by having a company sponsor you. Keep taking baby steps to get you towards your final destination. It's obviously not something that's going to happen overnight, it'll take effort. That's how things work. Either the dream is worth it to you or it isn't. If it's not, find one you want to follow.

I know my response is off topic from the thread but posts like these are just depressing. You only have one life(as far as I believe) you don't get to die and redo everything you've done wrong or whatever. Don't waste your time here. Play video games if they bring you joy for sure, I'm sure most of us do. But don't use them as a means to waste time until you die.

Turbo Killer · Apr 29, 2017

Epiphyte said:
WTF

Didn't realize Cornel West posted on GAF

Sorry, wasn't meant to offend. Is the right word multiracial? Not being sarcastic, just clueless.

Ok, I think I understand what I wrote wrong, he is black in my opinion and most people, but race wise he is not 100% black, am I wrong?

Dr. Benton Quest · Apr 29, 2017

III-V said:
Is there any point to avoid following your dreams? thats the quickest way for them to never happen.

The idea is that you have agency to change your status. No-one is going to do it for you. If you are lucky, there will be those people who can help you along the way.

Yeah, that's the bullshit part. You can have a desire to change your status but social mobility is mostly luck.

Far more bootstrap bullshit in this thread than I thought there would be.

SirJackDaniels said:
Our journey took approx 25 years. I have been working for 25 of my 34 years on this planet in some form. We didnt get there overnight but we made things better every day/week/year step by step. You need to be focused on what you want, what you need to get there, make a plan, be disciplined and work your ass off.

It isnt for the weak and i agree some are priviliged to be born in richness. We didnt and its insulting to me to my core individual that people say that "follow your dreams" mantra is outdated. There is always a way to better your life whatever the situation.

Yeah, those trapped in generational poverty are just weak. Your realize how ridiculous this sounds?

Moose Biscuits · Apr 29, 2017

oxrock said:
Honestly, I'm a little worried about why you want to live in Maine with a basement full of guns. You sound a tad of your rocker already but I'll run with this. Obviously being a robot isn't entirely on the table atm, I guess you could chop off limbs and get less functional robotic replacements but I would highly discourage it. The Maine dream should be manageable with steady effort and time invested though. You have to make yourself manageable goals that will eventually lead you to your destination. Your first goal could be to research better paying jobs in fields that you already have an interest in/have experience in/or already excel at. The following goal could be to find training in your area for that profession if applicable, search for job listing you're qualified for, etc. Save up money, do some research on how to immigrate to the US. Probably want to start by having a company sponsor you. Keep taking baby steps to get you towards your final destination. It's obviously not something that's going to happen overnight, it'll take effort. That's how things work. Either the dream is worth it to you or it isn't. If it's not, find one you want to follow.

I know my response is off topic from the thread but posts like these are just depressing. You only have one life(as far as I believe) you don't get to die and redo everything you've done wrong or whatever. Don't waste your time here. Play video games if they bring you joy for sure, I'm sure most of us do. But don't use them as a means to waste time until you die.

I probably am off my rocker, I just like guns and think they're cool. Then again, I could own guns over here but it's a lot of effort that I can't really bother to go through with.

That's the thing: if you asked me to think of a thing that I could point at and say "I want to do this and I am willing to push myself and work hard to achieve this goal", be it a career or a lifestyle, I don't really think I could name anything. Thinking back to when I was young, I don't think I had anything then either; I can recall as a kid thinking of all the "you can be an astronaut or a fireman etc." all the stereotypical boy dreams, and thinking about all the dangers there were in those.

Like, even the house'o'guns idea has several flaws with it that'd make me hesitant to follow it. When I went from sixth form to university to study physics, it was with some vague idea of working with nuclear stuff (weapons or power) because I thought that kind of thing was cool; then I discovered that physics was just a bunch of hard work and study and repetitive testing and I sorta lost interest and flunked out.

Nabbis · Apr 29, 2017

openrob said:
The problem comes from people who had it easy, and tell others they aren't working hard enough whilst not taking into account the shit that society throws at people. Sometimes the opportunities just are not there. Sometimes there is just too little pay for too little time.

Even people who worked hard should really get some perspective. Social mobility is quite low and the gulf between the rich and the poor keeps growing. Those are statistical facts and no amount of motivational bullshit will change it unless it's accompanied with economic and social reforms.

I personally do come from a low income background and have achieved everything i wanted so far. Fact is though, your own work is indeed a crucial key to success but it's only one of the variables that are needed. Whatever the hell you did in your life, you are standing on the shoulders of others and society has far more power over your life than you do on it.

Im not even going to go into genetics as well as upbringing and their effects on a persons personality traits, intelligence and temperament. Those are all crucial things that are largely outside your own control.

TheBear · Apr 29, 2017

I used to dream about being a professional wrestler. Then I became an adult, and trained as a wrestler for about a month and said to myself 'this is a shitty dream' and moved on. But hey fuck it I tried.

Air · Apr 29, 2017

I'm currently living one of my dreams by working in an animation studio. Eventually I'm going to make a pilot that I can hopefully sell to a network. Dreams are possible but there's an expectation that they just sort of happen to you if you try a bit and thats not the case. The only reason I was able to get where I am was because I had a pretty stable upbringing that allowed me to fail and fail and fail while not being super detrimental to my liveliehood.

What I'm trying to say is that it's worth it, but it's a very, very long term investment and you have to be relentless in pursuing your goals to eventually make it. It doesn't help that society, family and friends tell you that anything is possible without realizing how that distorts expectations.

oxrock · Apr 29, 2017

JimmyRickard said:
I used to dream about being a professional wrestler. Then I became an adult, and trained as a wrestler for about a month and said to myself 'this is a shitty dream' and moved on. But hey fuck it I tried.

Professional wrestlers have it rough, you got out at the best time you could have.

Hoo-doo · Apr 29, 2017

Moose Biscuits said:
I probably am off my rocker, I just like guns and think they're cool. Then again, I could own guns over here but it's a lot of effort that I can't really bother to go through with.

That's the thing: if you asked me to think of a thing that I could point at and say "I want to do this and I am willing to push myself and work hard to achieve this goal", be it a career or a lifestyle, I don't really think I could name anything. Thinking back to when I was young, I don't think I had anything then either; I can recall as a kid thinking of all the "you can be an astronaut or a fireman etc." all the stereotypical boy dreams, and thinking about all the dangers there were in those.

Like, even the house'o'guns idea has several flaws with it that'd make me hesitant to follow it. When I went from sixth form to university to study physics, it was with some vague idea of working with nuclear stuff (weapons or power) because I thought that kind of thing was cool; then I discovered that physics was just a bunch of hard work and study and repetitive testing and I sorta lost interest and flunked out.

You don't sound off your rocker, but it just sounds to me that you never really went exploring on what your dreams or ambitions really are. They can be completely out of left field. You won't know it until it hits you.

A dream isn't just going to come knocking on your door at home or is there from birth. You got to actively look around and try things, see where you'd fit in in the world. Sometimes even out of your comfort zone.

I'm currently working in a field where I could not even conceive being interested in, ten years ago. It never entered my brain even once.
I just got involved with it in a tiny way through sheer chance and it clicked. Having to move mountains to get my foot in the door seemed no longer insurmountable, they felt like things that I just had to do for myself. I happened to tap into a previously unknown source of motivation that has sustained me for 7+ years now and it's only getting stronger. I'm on a trajectory in life that was previously inconceivable by anyone around me, including myself.

But obviously my situation doesn't apply to everyone. I feel extremely thankful to have found that 'thing'. You know, a purpose.
And I don't deny that I've been born in a privileged position for this, seeing as i'm healthy, capable and I live in the Netherlands. There's decent government support systems for people trying to get themselves educated here, if that's your ambition. It doesn't mean you go instantly bankrupt, for one.
But that doesn't mean I didn't have to bust my balls to get there every step of the way. I also flunked out of the equivalent of high school when I was 18 and had to jump through some insane hoops for basically three years to get into the study I wanted. But that intrinsic motivation is simply what kept me going.

So if anything, i'd advise anyone to just start looking. Not just for education paths or career paths specifically, but start looking for your thing. Your niche. If guns are truly the thing you want to get out of bed for in the morning, explore other avenues within that hobby. I'm sure there are gunsmiths or gun stores in the UK. Join a gun club. The NRA (US) has gunsmithing schools even. See if you can leverage this interest of yours into a more tangible goal.

EGM1966 · Apr 29, 2017

You obviously need ambition and determination (and talent and luck) to succeed at pretty much anything.

As such the "follow your dreams" mantra is okay in principle so long as properly communicated.

Being terribly reductive I do feel US culture tends to overplay the "follow your dreams and you'll succeed" angle and mostly ignore the "of course the odds are stacked against you" angle.

But you gotta have goals in the first place if you want to attain them.

TyrantII · Apr 29, 2017

To me follow your dreams isn't about where you end up, but how you start and the process, the trip.

Which makes those success story brags packaged as advice even worse. Those are make better choices and be rich and successful shams.

Moose Biscuits · Apr 29, 2017

Hoo-doo said:
You don't sound off your rocker, but it just sounds to me that you never really went exploring on what your dreams or ambitions really are. They can be completely out of left field. You won't know it until it hits you.

A dream isn't just going to come knocking on your door at home or is there from birth. You got to actively look around and try things, see where you'd fit in in the world. Sometimes even out of your comfort zone.

I'm currently working in a field where I could not even conceive being interested in, ten years ago. It never entered my brain even once.
I just got involved with it in a tiny way through sheer chance and it clicked. Having to move mountains to get my foot in the door seemed no longer insurmountable, they felt like things that I just had to do for myself. I happened to tap into a previously unknown source of motivation that has sustained me for 7+ years now and it's only getting stronger. I'm on a trajectory in life that was previously inconceivable by anyone around me, including myself.

But obviously my situation doesn't apply to everyone. I feel extremely thankful to have found that 'thing'. You know, a purpose.
And I don't deny that I've been born in a privileged position for this, seeing as i'm healthy, capable and I live in the Netherlands. There's decent government support systems for people trying to get themselves educated here, if that's your ambition. It doesn't mean you go instantly bankrupt, for one.
But that doesn't mean I didn't have to bust my balls to get there every step of the way. I also flunked out of the equivalent of high school when I was 18 and had to jump through some insane hoops for basically three years to get into the study I wanted. But that intrinsic motivation is simply what kept me going.

So if anything, i'd advise anyone to just start looking. Not just for education paths or career paths specifically, but start looking for your thing. Your niche. If guns are truly the thing you want to get out of bed for in the morning, explore other avenues within that hobby. I'm sure there are gunsmiths or gun stores in the UK. Join a gun club. The NRA (US) has gunsmithing schools even. See if you can leverage this interest of yours into a more tangible goal.

Eh. I used to go to an airgun range but after I moved I couldn't find one nearby so that went on the backburner. I guess guns aren't my thing, I don't get that feeling of needing to do whatever I can to get more involved with them.

But then there's nothing I've encountered that's like that, nothing that has made me want to go to extremes of effort to achieve. I don't believe that everyone has a dream that grants them that spark.

Ultima_5 · Apr 29, 2017

it's important to have hope, but even more important to be realistic

Slo · Apr 29, 2017

People seems to be confusing the opportunity to chase your dreams with having your dreams come true with high probability. There's always been a really high likelihood of people chasing their dreams and failing spectacularly, that's not something that's be recently introduced. That's always been true.

Hoo-doo · Apr 29, 2017

Moose Biscuits said:
Eh. I used to go to an airgun range but after I moved I couldn't find one nearby so that went on the backburner. I guess guns aren't my thing, I don't get that feeling of needing to do whatever I can to get more involved with them.

But then there's nothing I've encountered that's like that, nothing that has made me want to go to extremes of effort to achieve. I don't believe that everyone has a dream that grants them that spark.

I truly believe that everyone has that spark somewhere, only most never figure out what it is in their lifetime, or figure it out too late to do something meaningful about it.
And it's good to realize that the thing you love doing might not be something you're even considering as interesting right now.

For example, I used to be fully in the graphic design career path, even got myself a degree there. But I hated doing it.
But through some very weird hoops I ended up in the medical field, which couldn't possibly be more different. And this change has been nothing short of life-changing.

I just want to say that there's stuff out there that works for you, you just got to find it.
And honestly, literally anything sounds like an improvement to just sitting at home playing videogames and waiting for death (your words, not mine). Because that sounds like depression talking.

capitalCORN · Apr 29, 2017

The real important part of life is to make choices that make you challenge yourself constantly.

Moose Biscuits · Apr 29, 2017

Hoo-doo said:
I truly believe that everyone has that spark somewhere, only most never figure out what it is in their lifetime, or figure it out too late to do something meaningful about it.
And it's good to realize that the thing you love doing might not be something you're even considering as interesting right now.

For example, I used to be fully in the graphic design career path, even got myself a degree there. But I hated doing it.
But through some very weird hoops I ended up in the medical field, which couldn't possibly be more different. And this change has been nothing short of life-changing.

I just want to say that there's stuff out there that works for you, you just got to find it.
And honestly, literally anything sounds like an improvement to just sitting at home playing videogames and waiting for death (your words, not mine). Because that sounds like depression talking.

I mean, what if that's actually my dream and I just never considered it in that light? If everyone has a dream like you say, there's nothing to say that those dreams have to be useful to humanity, productive, or beneficial. They could even be harmful, to themselves or others; perhaps someone who has a dream to kill as many people as possible.

Hoo-doo · Apr 29, 2017

Moose Biscuits said:
I mean, what if that's actually my dream and I just never considered it in that light? If everyone has a dream like you say, there's nothing to say that those dreams have to be useful to humanity, productive, or beneficial. They could even be harmful, to themselves or others; perhaps someone who has a dream to kill as many people as possible.

Ofcourse. Some people's dream goal is one day having a roof above their head. It all scales.
And none of it has to be beneficial or useful to humanity either. It's figuring out what makes you happy in life. And hopefully most of it is achievable within the confines of the law.

But the way you described your daily routine as sitting around eating garbage, playing videogames and waiting for death, it gave me the idea that you're not at all satisfied with your current conditions but are reluctant to change.

ZackieChan · Apr 29, 2017

capitalCORN said:
The real important part of life is to make choices that make you challenge yourself constantly.

I'd say you should make choices that get you closer to your dream or achieving whatever you set out to achieve. It doesn't necessarily have to be a challenge.

Freeza Under The Shower · Apr 29, 2017

JdFoX187 said:
I had the displeasure of covering a young professionals luncheon yesterday that was billed as a way for professionals under 40 in this area to come together and network and learn new ideas of how to take more of a prominent role in our community. Hokey as it sounded, the idea at least had potential -- especially as my city is run by a cabal of old, white dudes.

Instead, the speakers did nothing but talk about how they followed their dreams and never gave up and they were successful, so everyone else in the audience can be too, as long as they work hard. Bootraps(tm), essentially.

What the 35-year-old hospital CEO didn't divulge was that his family has a long history here and his relatives have been involved with the hospital for the last 50 years.

What the 30-something co-owner of a major local advertising agency didn't divulge when she was bragging about quitting her job in DFW and moving here was that she and her husband both made six figures down there, sold their already-paid for house and then moved to a much cheaper cost of living area, paid for their house in cash and started up their agency with clients poached from their other job.

What the old retired businessman-turned-mayor didn't divulge when he was bragging about working his way up in the business world of this community was that he inherited his father's already-successful business and only made his money when he sold it off and used that to move into politics.

So when discussing this with some friends yesterday, I was told I'm entirely too bitter and cynical because I'm of the belief that following your dreams is great for an inspirational poster hanging on the wall in a doctor's office somewhere, but it's just not logistical in today's world. For every one person who "makes it," there's thousands of others who didn't and who are struggling beneath them. I was told that's just because they didn't believe hard enough, or they gave up, or they "settled" for less -- as if settling for a decent-paying, albeit less glamorous job, while having a family is "settling" and is a bad thing.

So is it being "bitter and cynical" to want to say that dreams are nice, but not everyone will "make" it and that doesn't mean your life is a failure, a bad thing?

nah, this is the oldest scam in the book. "I did it, so therefore you can too", by ignoring millions who didn't or just can't for other reasons.

The other part is that lying to make yourself seem more successful is the "get paid to give talks" rule 1. You can literally get a suit, call yourself a millionaire, and get paid to give a talk (guess what Tim Ferris did, certain fans). There is no incentive to be honest about actual accomplishments in that game. This is really almost every non-science talk I have come across, and I actually look for (ted) talks. Seriously, that management bullshit is a vast ocean that never ends.
It was also for that same "hollow talk" reason that it's used in Nightcrawler (2014), which is an excellent representation of how this 'follow your dreams' actually works versus what people say. Lying, cheating, and worse? Donzo.

Success stories are also the exact same story as the dictator story for that reason. You ready for this? Okay: came from low origins and had nothing, worked hard and gained power, then was trust into position of great power / wealth, but it's all good because really he's still just a regular guy. And then he goes to his palace to crap on a golden toilet and have some people executed because they didn't clap hard enough for that shitty fake story.

And yet every damn time, people fall for the exact same story.

So basically your first mistake was thinking these talks are worthwhile and done by nice people. Good on you to see through that bullshit too.

capitalCORN · Apr 29, 2017

ZackieChan said:
I'd say you should make choices that get you closer to your dream or achieving whatever you set out to achieve. It doesn't necessarily have to be a challenge.

Life should be about satisfaction, There is no blueprint to anyone's existence. And to mire yourself in factors that are far beyond your reach is not going to achieve that. think if you can say you did your best at the end of the day, and you can look forward to the next to do better than you did the day before, you're in the element that makes you happiest.

Kinsei · Apr 29, 2017

Yes. Trying to follow your dreams is just a waste of time and money.

Glendemonium · Apr 29, 2017

OP not being cynical, so many success stories have serious context that they'd never divulge.

It's easy to brag about making it when you had tremendous help, like the colleagues OP talked about. When someone who lacks that kind of luxury complain about their struggles, they'll get a verbal slap in the face that "they're not trying hard enough." or my favorite "Well, maybe you just don't want it hard enough.". There is also major self-sacrifice if you do find success, like leaving your loved ones behind and being the pawn of a large company to pretty much owns your life.

So many of my preppy, more successful people I know fail to see this but whatever.

You can still have hopes and dreams, but be realistic. Sometimes there might be that one in a million luck like lottery or being discovered by a movie studio, or making it big on social media, but it's literally one in a million.

Moose Biscuits · Apr 29, 2017

Hoo-doo said:
But the way you described your daily routine as sitting around eating garbage, playing videogames and waiting for death, it gave me the idea that you're not at all satisfied with your current conditions but are reluctant to change.

Maybe, but if I really wanted my life to improve then wouldn't I take steps to fix it? Maybe I am depressed, but wouldn't I want to fix that? Unless there's a pill I'm unaware of that makes you want to do stuff that you need to do but not want to do, maybe I should reconsider that the situation in might actually be what I want?

In other words,

flintstryker · Apr 29, 2017

Up to a point a man's life is shaped by environment, heredity, and the movements and changes in the world around him. Then there comes a time when it lies within his grasp to shape the clay of his life into the sort of thing he wishes to be. Only the weak blame parents, their race, their times, lack of good fortune, or the quirks of fate. Everyone has it within his power to say, 'This I am today; that I will be tomorrow.' The wish, however, must be implemented by deeds.

This is one of my favourite quotes from one of my favourite books of all time and it really embodies how I think obviously some people will have it easier, but isn't that always the case? Life clearly isn't fair but is the solution simply to just roll over and die without even fighting for what YOU want just because some guy may have an easier time getting it?

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