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The dynamic racing line and "Press Y to rewind" - are they dead?

Mohasus

Member
I just don't have the time and patience to blindly practice

Racing lines are so bad at braking points (99% of the time they tell you to brake waaay earlier than you should) that you barely need any practice to be good without them once your learn how to judge braking distances.
 
Options are almost always nice but I'm very biased against having rewind in racing games even in arcade racers.

Driving lines are a very important feature though, love the new GT system having tried it.
 

yyr

Member
I LOVE Rewind. It's not only a time-saver, but it's also just fun to play with.

I think the first time I saw the feature was in a demo for GRID. I caused a huge accident > Rewind > did it again for half an hour straight, had a great time.

Now I use it in Forza along with braking line. I usually only use Rewind when I make a huge mistake or when something that wasn't my fault caused me to drop several positions...you know, the frustrating sorts of situations that can cause you to lose. I really like Forza's approach, where turning it off gives a big bonus, but you can use it if you want. I have limited gaming time these days and I feel like Forza respects that very well.

Of course, multiplayer lacks Rewind, for obvious reasons, and if I'm looking for a serious race I go there. And, if you hate the feature that much, there's always Gran Turismo (if it ever comes out). GT has never had Rewind and likely never will.
 
I can only speak for whom I have talked to on the channel as I have done a couple random vids and discussions about this since I review so many racing games.

But most of the folks I talked to expressed that without racing lines they wouldn't have entered into the racing genre at all and then graduated to turning them off in the options.

For me its more important to keep having an influx of new gamers every day who feel like they can at least attempt something and then turn those options off when they get better, than to close them out entirely. It was only like 150 folks but it was pretty unanimous.

Both are optional, if you don't like them turn them off.

That about covers it.

I don't see these accessibility options disappearing.
 
GT has never had Rewind and likely never will.
That about covers it.

I don't see these accessibility options disappearing.

DiRT got rid of both,
GT Sport is getting rid of the racing line as well.

pCARS' and Assetto's racing line are so off and slow that they aren't a real option, unless you turn the AI down really far.

Forza and the Codemasters F1 games are basically the only defenders left.
 

fresquito

Member
Many people who post top leaderboard times (that can't be achieved by following the racing line to the point) always race with the racing line turned on, they know their braking points as a mix of points in the environment and grading on the racing line.
That's basically because they cheat. They have a clear reference inside the track that can't be achieved otherwise. But I think we are talking about these tools being useful for newcomers, not as ways to cheat your way up the ranks?
 

sh1fty

Member
As someone who hasn't played a racing game since the original Xbox days... I recently bought Forza Horizon 3 and was blown away.

Since I'm not any good at racing games, I appreciate the ability to turn down the difficulty on everything and have that rewind feature for those "oops" moments. Soundtrack is fun, graphics are awesome... It's definitely the way I want to enjoy this game.
 
That's basically because they cheat. They have a clear reference inside the track that can't be achieved otherwise. But I think we are talking about these tools being useful for newcomers, not as ways to cheat your way up the ranks?

That's ridiculous, then every controller time is cheated too, because there are aids in the working of the controller in Forza and GT6 for example (Speed-sensitive steering and some slip-angle control). You also can press triggers and flip sticks faster than step on pedals and rotate a steering wheel. Edit: And what about leaderboard times that have ABS turned on in cars that don't have it in real life?
 
Rewind is brilliant when you're trying to get the hang of a particularly tricky turn. Saves a huge amount of time if you can practice that section over and over without having to go round the rest of the track.

I bet there are also a ton of racing game fans that would never have got into the genre without driving lines there to help ease into it.

I don't get the hate for what are strictly optional aids, the games aren't designed completely around them and using the rewind button marks it down as a dirty lap on Forza leaderboards. It's such a harmless thing to get annoyed by.
 

xam3l

Member
Crying for Devs to take some optional features from a game, and eventually some fun from a lot of players is bad. And who advocates those features as a thing from the devil should feel bad.

"look at me I'm so hardcore" No. You are just a baby.
 

Mohasus

Member
Crying for Devs to take some optional features from a game, and eventually some fun from a lot of players is bad. And who advocates those features as a thing from the devil should feel bad.

"look at me I'm so hardcore" No. You are just a baby.

Congrats on completely missing the point.
 

fresquito

Member
That's ridiculous, then every controller time is cheated too, because there are aids in the working of the controller in Forza and GT6 for example (Speed-sensitive steering and some slip-angle control). You also can press triggers and flip sticks faster than step on pedals and rotate a steering wheel. Edit: And what about leaderboard times that have ABS turned on in cars that don't have it in real life?
I think you are answering yourself. BTW, camera affects too.
 
Crying for Devs to take some optional features from a game, and eventually some fun from a lot of players is bad. And who advocates those features as a thing from the devil should feel bad.

"look at me I'm so hardcore" No. You are just a baby.

sim racing community in a nutshell

But TylerDurden has a good point in this thread, considering it came from the Project CARS 2 discussion thread. I honestly do not care. EatinOlives basically put out my opinion: I don't have the time or the desire to restart a long race, so rewind helps. Racing lines, I don't generally use, and I believe they make things a bit too easy.
 
tl;dr I like rewind and racing lines, but I do worry about whether I rely on them too much and can think of some ways to wean people off them more forcefully.

If you're just asking me if I think the racing line/rewind features should stay or go, of course I'm going to say stay. Racing line I can kind of take or leave, but rewind is the difference between "oh crap how am I going to get this turn right" and "FUCK I JUST WASTED TEN MINUTES ON THIS FUCKING RACE FOR NOTHING." You still have to be able to MAKE the turn, even with rewind.

That said, I have felt a bit of creeping in games like Forza. In Gran Turismo, I tend to turn the racing line off; usually the crutch I rely on in GT is the indicator telling you what the ideal gear should be. In Forza, though, I tend to leave at least the braking line on, and I rarely think to go back and turn it off later. Rewind I always leave on for the above stated reason.

I think people just don't want to feel like they're wasting their limited time. If I need to win a specific race to progress, and I spend an hour without those features and just can't hit the apexes or misjudge the grip on the final corner of a ten-lap race, then at the end of it I have nothing to show for my effort except maybe marginal improvement in my times that the game doesn't care about. If progression isn't as tied to having to win absolutely every race ever, then that improvement can be rewarded in other ways even if you didn't win, so you don't feel so much like you wasted time. So I'd probably start with making progression less tied to coming in 1st in every race. Forza's already pretty good with this.

DiRT Rally is also strangely good with this (or at least it was in early access), even though it's a pretty hardcore rally sim. Even though the game is still about trying to beat all the championships and whatnot, the game's a lot better about building in an expectation of failure. At first, half the battle is just getting across the finish line without pitching your car off a cliff. Unlike, say, Gran Turismo, the sting out of not finishing 1st is pretty small because of how difficult it is to put a great race together when you start out.

The other thing I think needs to improve is that games need to offer more incentive to turn off aids. Again, Forza is pretty good in this department, where turning off aids translates into increased XP and money to buy more cars and unlock events faster. But it could go a step further with this. For example, Forza Motorsport keeps track of when you make good/perfect turns. In the same way that Forza will eventually suggest that you increase the drivatar difficulty for additional rewards, it could do the same for the racing line if it notes that you're getting pretty good at hitting a fast line or judging braking distances. More gradations in the number of rewinds available, like DiRT used to do it, could help too. For example, maybe 0% for unlimited rewinds, +5% credits for three rewinds, +10% for one rewind, +15% for no rewinds. (15% is probably too high but you get what I mean.)

Something else that might be smart would be to have that kind of adaptive aid on a per-vehicle basis. For example, I probably don't need any help racing a Toyota Yaris around the track; it's a pretty slow and forgiving vehicle. But jumping into a Pagani Zonda R immediately is a recipe for disaster for newbies without something to tell you "HEY DUMBASS BRAKE HERE." A lot of the gameplay cycle in racing games is buying a faster car, then figuring out how to drive it, then racing to victory enough times that you can afford another new car. One of the reasons why I forget to turn off the braking line is because braking distances change based on your car and the environment (wet/dry, for example). If the game were smarter about suggesting I turn that stuff once I've figured out a specific car, I'd probably spend less time with the line on.
 

GHG

Gold Member
Suggested line: ON
Assisted braking: ON
Assisted steering: ON
ABS/TC: ON
Transmission: Automatic

WHAT'S THE POINT IN EVEN PLAYING

The best bit is when racing games start you off in the first race and force you to drive with all of the above turned on and even say "hey why don't you also try rewind!" half way through the race even if you are leading.

Love it. Don't know why every racing game doesn't do it to be honest.

But if the real world hard way is too hard for newcomers and the racing line is a bad learning tool for most average gamers, there needs to be another solution to ease the learning curve (and also to encourage going on that learning curve instead of just relying on the ease-in mechanic)

Just fuck those casuals is no answer. Then rather give people the option and not let them race online with others who have it turned off.

I get that new people need to be introduced to racing games but people were introduced to racing games long before both of these "features" we're a thing. There is another way.
 

dLMN8R

Member
Rewind is brilliant when you're trying to get the hang of a particularly tricky turn. Saves a huge amount of time if you can practice that section over and over without having to go round the rest of the track.

I bet there are also a ton of racing game fans that would never have got into the genre without driving lines there to help ease into it.

I don't get the hate for what are strictly optional aids, the games aren't designed completely around them and using the rewind button marks it down as a dirty lap on Forza leaderboards. It's such a harmless thing to get annoyed by.

Exactly. Forza games are amazing because of the options they provide. I love being able to rewind when first learning a track for the first time.

It's simply not fun to need to restart an entire race from scratch on my first race unless I want to come in dead-last place.

Then later, once I know tracks better, I can disable the assists to increase my earnings / scores on those tracks.
 
If rewind is a cheat that undermines the realism then restart is too. Real racers don't get to undo first corner crashes or retry a race for a better position.
 

GHG

Gold Member
Exactly. Forza games are amazing because of the options they provide. I love being able to rewind when first learning a track for the first time.

It's simply not fun to need to restart an entire race from scratch on my first race unless I want to come in dead-last place.

Then later, once I know tracks better, I can disable the assists to increase my earnings / scores on those tracks.

There is no shame in finishing last while you are still learning. It's more a fault in the games design that you have to finish first (or is it too 3 these days?) in order to be able to progress at all. That's not how it should work.
 

fresquito

Member
I lost ten minutes of my life because I crashed my car.

I totally did not lose ten minutes of my life because I won.

Well, if you can't appreciate the thrill of the race, winning or losing, either way you are losing your time playing a racing game.
 

Karak

Member
As someone who hasn't played a racing game since the original Xbox days... I recently bought Forza Horizon 3 and was blown away.

Since I'm not any good at racing games, I appreciate the ability to turn down the difficulty on everything and have that rewind feature for those "oops" moments. Soundtrack is fun, graphics are awesome... It's definitely the way I want to enjoy this game.

We have a couple folks in our discord who basically jumped into the last Forza Prime and then Horizon and some have gone from everything on to nothing on and others have gone from everything on to...still everything on. The most important point is the option. A couple even moved onto Rally just recently and learned a lot from that progression including just where their skills do or don't lie. Interesting discussion either way though for sure
 

Mandoric

Banned
Suggested line: ON
Assisted braking: ON
Assisted steering: ON
ABS/TC: ON
Transmission: Automatic

WHAT'S THE POINT IN EVEN PLAYING

cheevos

Crying for Devs to take some optional features from a game, and eventually some fun from a lot of players is bad. And who advocates those features as a thing from the devil should feel bad.

"look at me I'm so hardcore" No. You are just a baby.

It's entirely optional what you pop in your DVD player, or what you put in your mouth. There's a reason Domino's sugarcubes aren't Michelin-starred and America's Funniest Home Videos: Nutshotpalooza hasn't been shown at Cannes.
 

PeterGAF

Banned
Rewind is the dumbest feature ever added to a racing game.

I'm fine with optional lines, but rewinds are just ridiculous.
It's an option in a single player race. What does it matter to you if someone rewinds? There are people who started playing more serious racing games because of these features and the game has incentives for the players to eventually turn them off once they don't need the assists. It's a good feature that lets people retake a turn instead of just restarting the entire race. It makes racing games more accessible and that's only a good thing.

But hey if it really bothers you that someone is having fun driving a fast car in a video game then I guess that's just your problem.

Suggested line: ON
Assisted braking: ON
Assisted steering: ON
ABS/TC: ON
Transmission: Automatic

WHAT'S THE POINT IN EVEN PLAYING
Same goes to this guy. if that's how they like to play the game then so be it.
 

ElNino

Member
It does though, in both. Leaderboard times more often than not include the times of those who use rewind.

And you see the pile ups that occur in racing online? That's because people haven't actually learnt the track before hopping online, hence they are all fighting for the exact same space as they mindlessly follow the line around the track.
In every game I've played that had rewind, the leaderboard times never included those who used rewind, or at least those who did were automatically put below those who didn't use it. Unless something has changed and I haven't noticed (I don't really follow leaderboards).

As for online, anyone who needs the line to get around will very quickly fall behind anyone who doesn't, so your point about the pileups seems to be agreement. Also, online setups I've been in has allowed the racing line to be disabled.
 
I've always hating those features. There's enough handholding in games as it is, I don't need to be told when, where, and how much to brake in a racing game + unlimited mulligans.
 

eXistor

Member
I don't even play or like racing games (outside of arcade racers) and Rewind sounds dumb as hell. Racing lines I can kinda see, but that just sounds like detective/x-ray vision for racing games.
 

Lothars

Member
Congrats on completely missing the point.
No he had the point, The ones missing it is saying that they should be removed.

There is no shame in finishing last while you are still learning. It's more a fault in the games design that you have to finish first (or is it too 3 these days?) in order to be able to progress at all. That's not how it should work.
Okay but they should have the options in the game. Wanting to take away these options is backwards and honestly sad because you are affecting enjoyment of the game for newer players.
 

def sim

Member
I still haven't seen a single convincing argument against racing lines/rewind. They aren't mandatory features and make the game accessible to those who want/need them. This is some goofy posturing up in here.
 

fresquito

Member
How about you let me decide what constitutes me 'losing my time'?
How about you let devs decide whether they want to cater to racing fans in their racing games?

I still haven't seen a single convincing argument against racing lines/rewind. They aren't mandatory features and make the game accessible to those who want/need them. This is some goofy posturing up in here.
Budget. These come at the expense of not including other features.
 

GHG

Gold Member
No he had the point, The ones missing it is saying that they should be removed.

Okay but they should have the options in the game. Wanting to take away these options is backwards and honestly sad because you are affecting enjoyment of the game for newer players.

How so? So you're trying to tell me that there were never any newcomers to racing games before this rewind and driving line rubbish started?

Like I said before, there are other methods that can be used to get new gamers accustomed to racing games however they require the developers to put some thought and work into it.
 

jacobeid

Banned
Only if they're banned from any sort of online/scored thing. Practice is fine but they shouldn't be in actual races.

Totally reasonable and I agree with you. I'm OK with it in single player if people want to use it (I don't), but online shouldn't have it ever.

I still haven't seen a single convincing argument against racing lines/rewind. They aren't mandatory features and make the game accessible to those who want/need them. This is some goofy posturing up in here.

Also this.
 
That said, I have felt a bit of creeping in games like Forza. In Gran Turismo, I tend to turn the racing line off; usually the crutch I rely on in GT is the indicator telling you what the ideal gear should be. In Forza, though, I tend to leave at least the braking line on, and I rarely think to go back and turn it off later. Rewind I always leave on for the above stated reason.

And seriously, if you just go to the next race in a car... you know the car, you know the track and have dialed down a challenging ai difficulty, even pro drivers don't have their braking points adjusted at the end of longer straights, the need 2-3 practice laps to get it down for this car again, if they race other cars on that tracks in the meantime. But Forza didn't even have the option for practice laps before the race, you would have had to do those outside of the race/championship mode. Suggested gear only helps me if I really really don't know the track, usually the map helps me much more even then.


I think people just don't want to feel like they're wasting their limited time. If I need to win a specific race to progress, and I spend an hour without those features and just can't hit the apexes or misjudge the grip on the final corner of a ten-lap race, then at the end of it I have nothing to show for my effort except maybe marginal improvement in my times that the game doesn't care about. If progression isn't as tied to having to win absolutely every race ever, then that improvement can be rewarded in other ways even if you didn't win, so you don't feel so much like you wasted time. So I'd probably start with making progression less tied to coming in 1st in every race. Forza's already pretty good with this.
This is a big thing, if you play for the progression of a career mode or to earn money. In all the hardcore vs. bottom-feeder-mentality this shouldn't be forgotten. It's just a time-saver in races that you don't necessarily do just for the pleasure of racing.
In pCARS I set the lap count and ai to lowest, if I just don't like or want to deal with a track at the moment, but want to progress the career mode - which is just a sad solution.

DiRT Rally is also strangely good with this (or at least it was in early access), even though it's a pretty hardcore rally sim. Even though the game is still about trying to beat all the championships and whatnot, the game's a lot better about building in an expectation of failure. At first, half the battle is just getting across the finish line without pitching your car off a cliff. Unlike, say, Gran Turismo, the sting out of not finishing 1st is pretty small because of how difficult it is to put a great race together when you start out.
Well, in DiRT Rally you are alone on the "track", the ai times are so far apart from another that if it were a race with more cars on the track, the last 3 ar cars would be lapped after 3 laps by the fastest ai drivers, it wouldn't be a tight pack. If they were, there is the problem of you being in first place or in last place all the time again. Not well explained, hope you get what I mean.

The other thing I think needs to improve is that games need to offer more incentive to turn off aids. Again, Forza is pretty good in this department, where turning off aids translates into increased XP and money to buy more cars and unlock events faster. But it could go a step further with this. For example.
100% agree there should be a good incentive, but Forza's is not good enough. I did a breakdown of how much you earn from race winnings and level up spins in FM6, add to that Forza Rewards and the incentive is complete joke in my opinion. Also, money for cars can't be an incentive in games where the cars aren't bought/unlocked like pCARS, AC, GT Sport.


I think you are answering yourself. BTW, camera affects too.

Let me repeat this...

EVERY LEADERBOARD TIME ACHIEVED WITH A CONTROLLER IS CHEATING.

That's seriously your opinion?
 

VRMN

Member
I have zero issue with them. You can turn them off and I view them as both a tool for reducing difficulty for more casual players and a way to learn the tracks for others. Helping someone who doesn't play learn and rewarding them for removing the crutches when they feel comfortable hurts absolutely no one. If you never want to use them at all, that's also a perfectly valid option.

More choices for how to play is always fine by me as long as it doesn't hurt those who want to play without the help. Forza doesn't hurt you if you play without the assists, so it's a great implementation of a custom difficulty creator.
 

def sim

Member
Budget. These come at the expense of not including other features.

It's fine if the developers don't want it in their game. I'm talking about its inclusion in general. The sentiment around it has been around before this thread and it's baffling.
 

GodofWine

Member
I think both should be available in PRACTICE modes, or some sort of easy mode in career that doesn't give you the same credit as people who can, well, drive.
 

Lothars

Member
How so? So you're trying to tell me that there were never any newcomers to racing games before this rewind and driving line rubbish started?

Like I said before, there are other methods that can be used to get new gamers accustomed to racing games however they require the developers to put some thought and work into it.
Of course new players played before those features existed and if devs have another way to go about it than great. but until than there's nothing wrong with these features. It's called having options.
 
Budget. These come at the expense of not including other features.
I am going to doubt that a large amount of budget is being taken by features that have existed for years. One that is basically an overlay on the road, and one that is just saving positions of cars and turning them back. Sure, it is a bit more complicated then that, but compared to the millions of other calculations and features being put into these games, this is not going to be removing significant resources away from much needed other features.
 

PeterGAF

Banned
Budget. These come at the expense of not including other features.
You really think that these assists require enough resources and time to cut into other game features? No way. The Forza series has been doing this for several games now. I can't imagine that implementing the same assists into Forza Horizon 3, Forza Motorsport 7, or any other future Forza game takes up any serious or significant time and/or money. That's just crazy talk and I will believe it is crazy talk until someone with real experience developing these games says otherwise.
 
Even though I agree with parts of the argument in this thread in regards to not using rewind and the racing line, it really just goes to show how out of touch and hostile the sim racing community can be to those who aren't balls deep into it.

The fact that both rewind and racing line, for the most part, are options in most games, show that this shouldn't be as big of an issue as the OP is making it out. But of course, posturing and sort of sly belittling is what makes the sim racing community what it is, I guess.
 

GHG

Gold Member
Of course new players played before those features existed and if devs have another way to go about it than great. but until than there's nothing wrong with these features. It's called having options.

More options and being more "accessible" are not automatically good things. I think these two options are actually doing newcomers a disservice more than anything for reasons I already stated earlier in the thread.
 
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