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Why are unions frowned upon?
- Thread starter TaterTots
- Start date
Yeah, this is where I'm at with our Union. And strikes suck too. Every year that our contract comes up for negotiation we're striking.
I do see shitty employees being protected but the positives far out weigh that negative.
I see other workers in my field working for other non-union companies being forced to work 7-days a week at times (weekends And Holidays), so I get worried when I see more and more unions fold.
Weird thing is, the majority of people in our union are conservative/republicans and talk shit about unions but all 100% reap the benefits from them. It's nuts.
I said companies. Still waiting.
Not sure how I feel about the union with the place I work. As a part timer, all I've seen it done is take away some of my wages and let people continue to work there that should have been fired long ago, but are protected from no showing once every few weeks because they get the union involved.
I'm sure they're "supposed" to fight for us, but a $0.25 raise over the course of one year isn't exactly fighting the good fight, is it?
I'm sure they're "supposed" to fight for us, but a $0.25 raise over the course of one year isn't exactly fighting the good fight, is it?
For capitalists, because they get in the way of treating their workers like disposable machine-tools. For everyone else, because they resent what they don't have. My dad's pretty liberal but still looks askance at unions because his company's never had them. He feels like union workers ask for too much when really he's just accustomed to asking for too little (he's management though. It's been 30 years since he was on the line).
I've always thought the American view of unions was just another part of the brainwashed hyper capitalist mindset you've got over there, where threatening those with money and doing ANYTHING to help "the little guy" is seen as sacrilege. It's a horrible mindset and the lowly average worker gets hit on all sides. Gotta work hard to pay for you and your family. So hard you get virtually no time off and do ridiculous hours to actually ever see your family or benefit from the money you're earning. Your earnings suck and you have poor healthcare options and you're just told to man up, get another job on the side, be better and move up the ranks... and so on.
America as it stands these days, in the hands of the hyper capitalist 0.01 percenter's, is a viscious, remorseless place for anyone with less than a few million in their bank account. You really are brainwashed with crazy ideas and everything put in place to make you keep YOURSELVES down so some other cunt can make a huge profit at your expense. Other countries have a much better balance and still function and are often more civilised than America. They have a few less billionaires mind, for shame!
America as it stands these days, in the hands of the hyper capitalist 0.01 percenter's, is a viscious, remorseless place for anyone with less than a few million in their bank account. You really are brainwashed with crazy ideas and everything put in place to make you keep YOURSELVES down so some other cunt can make a huge profit at your expense. Other countries have a much better balance and still function and are often more civilised than America. They have a few less billionaires mind, for shame!
Many unions also have no concept of optics.
For example, when the BART union went on strike in the Bay Area, and one of the demands was that they NOT switch to direct deposit. Nope, the union demanded that everyone still get paid by paper check, simply because a handful of people had delivering checks are part of their job duties.
Can't reassign those folks. Can't let them apply for other positions.
Have to keep processing physical checks (and incurring the extra costs to do so) rather then switch to direct deposit because someone on the union payroll likes that job.
American unions could do themselves a world of good by hiring competent PR firms and learning how to manage their images.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Excellent points. I manage a Union shop (a pretty lousy Union btw) and just from listening anecdotally it seems the members overwhelmingly voted for Trump
Why is this issue you use as an example an optics issue, rather than just an issue?
Killa Sasa
Member
Unions are important. Some are definitely shit and act like mafia, and of course big biz + human negativity bias means the bad apples go front and center when it comes to unions. By and large, they are a force for good but they have done some shit things, those of which are minuscule in comparison to what would happen without them or if corporations had their way completely ala America.
As long as they are actually representing their members in their actual interest and not protecting shit heads or being a ruthless business themselves...I don't see the downside to unions.
As long as they are actually representing their members in their actual interest and not protecting shit heads or being a ruthless business themselves...I don't see the downside to unions.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
What's the racial resentment angle?
You called ?
Gross negligence from staff tends not to make the news like it does in the public sector. The healthcare industry is littered with negligence that has gone unpunished because of unions. Considering there are very few skilled unionized industries left and the ones that are, are struggling (Automotive or Steelwork for example), I highly doubt a study could even be done on what you're suggesting. Supermarket clerks is an industry founded on mediocrity.
Do you think that when you take away individual bargaining that people will remain performance oriented?
I say this as someone who worked under Australian unions, not American ones. They have their place but as I said, I would never want to work under one again.
Dude Abides
Banned
This of course, makes no sense. Unions are the size that reflects the bargaining unit they represent. Any democratic institution has to make compromises among the people it represents so there will always be malcontents like your SO.
neurosisxeno
Member
This is a giant, I think; As globalization picked up a lot of Unions crumbled due to operations being moved overseas. This lead to a rise in formerly Unionized workers resenting people from other countries and generally just people of different races. In the past 10 years or so racial resentment as a whole has spiked due to us having a Black President and a light being shined on racial inequality and acts of violence committed by Law Enforcement against primarily minority suspects. Trump and the Right as a whole have fed into that. It started with "illegal immigrants coming here and taking American jobs" and has evolved to the isolationist platform Trump is all-in on--building a wall, cancelling all our free trade agreements, being actively hostile towards minorities, etc.
Yes?
Do you think anecdotal evidence that amounts to "I really didn't like my coworkers" makes for a convincing argument against unionization?
Most unions are great and the only thing standing between corporations having low wages, shit benefits etc. Some unions are pretty poorly run, almost extortion/mafia level tactics. Forced to contribute, high salaries for union heads, little actual benefit for workers. Sometimes unions even cause jobs to be lost, call you scab if you try to work to pay bills that won't be paid if there is a strike etc.
I still would rather have unionization than not at all though. Especially if I was in the US.
I still would rather have unionization than not at all though. Especially if I was in the US.
A lot of unions were (and some still are) super duper racist. Their membership would vote for Dems despite being socially conservative and xenophobic because of the perceived economic benefits. When the Dems went all-in on civil rights and labor unions weakened in power both due to deregulation and the general economic changes brought on by technology and globalization, many of them just started voting for the GOP.
Hickbilly Deluxe
Banned
It IS illegal. Companies that are found to interfere with union drives or punish emoloyees for trying to unionize can find themselves in hot water real fast.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Nah, it's just good old fashioned white working class racism. It's always been there
Do you think I'm arguing against unionization? It's completely industry dependent. It's downright stupid to say unions don't have their place but it's even more idiotic to say they are absolutely necessary across all industries or that they don't do more harm than good in most high skilled workforces. There is a reason why unions are more commonly employed in public services and low skilled workforces, it's because they have low bargaining power and have high availability.
Collective and individual bargaining both have their place in society.
My company finds a way around this by using "business needs" moves.
Dusk Soldier
Member
CornBurrito
Member
And yet they are the workers' only check against corporate power. Unions got us the 8 hour work day, 40 hour work week, and the weekend. Of course those are all starting to be stripped from us.
I'll gladly have a lazy employee as a coworker if it means having rights to begin with.
SoulUnison
Banned
Because companies are legally required to constantly increase profits, even at the expense of humanity, and unions are all about fair working wages and conditions.
We've basically enshrined deteriorating work environments into law.
We've basically enshrined deteriorating work environments into law.
Unions are necessary to balance out the horrible aspects of capitalism, but man, can they have the most entitled, belligerent attitudes. When the balance of power shifts either way, you can get shitheads at the top.
I still remember a friend getting written up for putting paper in the printer in his office on his own.
I still remember a friend getting written up for putting paper in the printer in his office on his own.
The Albatross
Member
The rise and fall of powerful labor unions in the United States roughly followed that of organized crime and La Cosa Nostra (the Mafia). For more than a decade, Jimmy Hoffa, the President of the Teamsters, was arguably the most powerful person in the United States, even more so than the President. Hoffa was arguably one of the most powerful people in the country even while he was behind bars.
When the Feds cracked down on organized crime, so too fell the most powerful labor unions. They had become inextricably linked throughout the 20th century. Along with that came deregulation in the 1980s and what was a powerful relationship between organized crime, labor unions, and government disintegrated.
I've always been passive interested in the history of organized crime, but was never really interested in the labor union aspect of that until I was recommended "So I Heard You Paint Houses," an auto-biography/biography about Frank Sheeran, Jimmy Hoffa's main muscle and a strong man for the Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/North East organized crime syndicate. The book makes two things pretty clear:
1) Hoffa was executed by Sheeran and the NY/Philly/NE mob
2) Hoffa and the NY/Philly/NE mob were involved in the Kennedy assassination
It was a pretty good book, about half is written by an author/interviewer, and the other half is mostly Sheeran putting his life into his own words. The sections written by Sheeran, through interviews, are rough, while the other sections providing context are all pretty good and well written, with a lot of history.
When the Feds cracked down on organized crime, so too fell the most powerful labor unions. They had become inextricably linked throughout the 20th century. Along with that came deregulation in the 1980s and what was a powerful relationship between organized crime, labor unions, and government disintegrated.
I've always been passive interested in the history of organized crime, but was never really interested in the labor union aspect of that until I was recommended "So I Heard You Paint Houses," an auto-biography/biography about Frank Sheeran, Jimmy Hoffa's main muscle and a strong man for the Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/North East organized crime syndicate. The book makes two things pretty clear:
1) Hoffa was executed by Sheeran and the NY/Philly/NE mob
2) Hoffa and the NY/Philly/NE mob were involved in the Kennedy assassination
It was a pretty good book, about half is written by an author/interviewer, and the other half is mostly Sheeran putting his life into his own words. The sections written by Sheeran, through interviews, are rough, while the other sections providing context are all pretty good and well written, with a lot of history.
Bolivar687
Banned
American labor law has not been updated to evolve at the same pace as the societal changes to the workplace. Employer-side law firms can also pay more money to attract top talent than their union-side counterparts, widening the disparity in legal representation, while creating more workarounds and loopholes to the outdated National Labor Relations Act. The information/digital technology industry in particular has utilized an unprecedented, unified use of legal services to erode the rights their employees, especially when it comes to unionization.
As a result, we currently have the mindset that the only companies with unions are the ones bad enough to deserve them.
At the same time, we've seen the Democratic party evolve into the party of professionals and jettisoning its traditional blue collar constituencies, including the labor movement and the Catholic demographic that has always supported it. The Obama administration, with its authoritarian approach in all things, thought the answer was to incorporate businesses into burgeoning regulatory schemes instead of cultivating an environment where employees can themselves negotiate for the rights they know they need most. Union leadership continues to fall in line with a party that could not care less about them, while the rank and file instead vote for the party that will only continue to erode their workplace protections.
As a result, we currently have the mindset that the only companies with unions are the ones bad enough to deserve them.
At the same time, we've seen the Democratic party evolve into the party of professionals and jettisoning its traditional blue collar constituencies, including the labor movement and the Catholic demographic that has always supported it. The Obama administration, with its authoritarian approach in all things, thought the answer was to incorporate businesses into burgeoning regulatory schemes instead of cultivating an environment where employees can themselves negotiate for the rights they know they need most. Union leadership continues to fall in line with a party that could not care less about them, while the rank and file instead vote for the party that will only continue to erode their workplace protections.
Haha this is true. OP has found a lot articles on why unions are bad, yet still made this thread.
Because corporations want to exploit workers and profit off them with poor working conditions.
Unions band employees together. Keeping them separate means they can exploit workers individually and if they don't like it they can get the fuck out and there are always enough workers to replace the position.
Unions band employees together. Keeping them separate means they can exploit workers individually and if they don't like it they can get the fuck out and there are always enough workers to replace the position.
Unions are good and are a necessary force in the workplace for a lot of companies.
Right wing and rich folks hate them because it makes them accountable and cuts into rich pockets.
That being said, there is a lot of shady shit that goes on in unions. And I completely disagree with how some union jobs protect employees for life. Like teachers in states that have teachers unions. You cannot fire a teacher in MN after they get tenured unless they beat or have sex with a kid.
Right wing and rich folks hate them because it makes them accountable and cuts into rich pockets.
That being said, there is a lot of shady shit that goes on in unions. And I completely disagree with how some union jobs protect employees for life. Like teachers in states that have teachers unions. You cannot fire a teacher in MN after they get tenured unless they beat or have sex with a kid.
I pointed out that one of the most common arguments made on this subject isn't particularly convincing.
But this:
Seems to point to yes. Relying on the mercy of your employer because you think you're irreplaceable doesn't make any sense. Japanese professionals die due to working too many hours. Software devs don't see their families for weeks on end during crunch. Plenty of professional industries have low job security due to constant downsizing to maximize profits. I'm not convinced that highly skilled workers don't need union protections for just as many reasons as their lower skilled counterparts.
I personally don't work in a Union, but there is a Union at my place of employment that includes people I work around. This is a complaint I've heard from friends in the Union. When a Union steps in to protect a bad employee from being fired, the end result is usually that other coworkers end up having to do more work, which breeds resentment. Also, many complain about paying dues and receiving little if any benefit back, because the Union sucks at negotiations.
CornBurrito
Member
Relying on your union to negotiate for yourself and hundreds or thousands of others, when you have a marketable skill set doesn't make sense.
Everyone is replaceable, but as someone who hires plenty of people I can assure you, it costs far more to hire new people than it does to keep existing people happy. That's in the software industry with an 8:30 - 5pm day and people get to see their families.
If a business views you as a group asset, you're as equally disposable and hold the same value as the person who does far less work than you. That too can be massively problematic.
There aren't too many unionized industries with people regularly getting 6 figure salaries or more than 4 weeks vacation.
And yet...
Mirrors the trend of globalization as well.
Brah, if I correlated that graph on a world wide scale to extreme poverty rates, I can make the decline of unions look like the greatest thing ever.And yet...
Mister Wolf
Member
Glad I'm a member of the IBEW, couldn't imagine being a non union electrician.
Which local? I know 3 is pretty much at capacity and they are kind of holding back their apprentice program.
CornBurrito
Member
Not the second chart.