MisterHero
Super Member
People aren't perfect, and it would be scary to leave art to people we deemed "perfect".
Harming other people is not art.
Harming other people is not art.
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Do you separate the entertainer from the person?
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Slammin_Hammon
Member
It's completely case by case for me. There are lots of factors and context to consider. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think a person is terrible, but has produced things that are worth appreciating nonetheless.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
Yes, absolutely. If I didn't separate the entertainer from the person, then I'd be severely limited from a lot of music, literature and movies/shows. Especially literature.
For the record, Polanski is my favorite director. Chinatown, The Tenant, Repulsion, The Pianist, Rosemary's Baby, The Ghost Writer, Venus in Furs, etc. etc. are excellent movies. No way in hell I would ignore them because of a moral opinion getting in the way.
For the record, Polanski is my favorite director. Chinatown, The Tenant, Repulsion, The Pianist, Rosemary's Baby, The Ghost Writer, Venus in Furs, etc. etc. are excellent movies. No way in hell I would ignore them because of a moral opinion getting in the way.
Clockwork5
Member
I don't really pay attention to the personal lives of entertainers.
But if some terrible piece of info comes out, it can diminish my ability to enjoy someone's work, sure.
But if some terrible piece of info comes out, it can diminish my ability to enjoy someone's work, sure.
gutter_trash
Banned
I forgive Mel Gibson and Micheal Richards,
Micheal Richards's answer during Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee expressed his guilt, sadness and regret of the comedy club episode.
Mel Gibson: Robert Downey Junior said it best about redemption and IMO I believe that Gibson has reformed.
Hulk Hogan however, no because he was always an asshole and continued to be an ass whole for ver
Micheal Richards's answer during Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee expressed his guilt, sadness and regret of the comedy club episode.
Mel Gibson: Robert Downey Junior said it best about redemption and IMO I believe that Gibson has reformed.
Hulk Hogan however, no because he was always an asshole and continued to be an ass whole for ver
Choppasmith
Member
Basically this for me. I still enjoy movies like Lethal Weapon, Braveheart, and Maverick and despite getting creepier and more repugnant by the day, James Woods makes for a good Luthor in Justice League Action. Wouldn't want to meet our hang out with them though.
Skellig Gra
Member
Yes, art transcends its creator. DaVinci was stealing corpses and cutting them up. Am I supposed to disavow his contributions?
Only in hindsight and forgiveness. I still have fond memories of listening to Cosby albums as a kid laughing my ass off. I could never buy or own one now. Guys like Mel Gibson I can forgive, he seems to have his shit together now. Also he went off in a drunken rant I haven't heard of him actually doing anything like that.
I do. I think Rainer Werner Fassbinder is a great director but he was notoriously horrible person. One of his frequent actresses, Irm Hermann said he was physically and emotionally abusive. One time he bullied her into eating a steak because he knew she was vegetarian. She threw up and he made fun of her; in exasperation she threatened to commit suicide and he said something like "Go ahead".
Despite all of this, I love a lot of his films, moral hypocrisy be damned.
Despite all of this, I love a lot of his films, moral hypocrisy be damned.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Da Vinci was an entertainer?
Master Of Illusion
Member
I believe this past month there was a time where I watched The Road Warrior, Mighty Aphrodite, and spun that first Lostprophets album within 48hrs.
So yes, easily.
So yes, easily.
Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order
Member
Easily, most of the time.
My exceptions are usually cases where the "personality" is the product.
My exceptions are usually cases where the "personality" is the product.
Goldenroad
Member
I mean the person is the entertainer. If the question is "can I separate the person/entertainer from their work?", then I guess I usually can because in the case of a movie, or TV show or album or video game, there is usually more than one person involved in the making of it, and to discount all of the hard work of the other individuals involved because of the actions of one person seems pretty close minded.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
I do my best. There are occasions when my loathing of someone overwhelms my ability to enjoy anything they produce, but I find that this is usually limited to 'personality' entertainment types.
I'd have an empty bookshelf if I refused to read the works of people who have thought, said or done bad things.
I'm completely comfortable with the idea that my favourite musical types are usually complete bellends. Billy Corgan in particular.
Controversial people typically have more interesting backgrounds too. Take Ezra Pound. Lunatic, actual Nazi. Knowing his life story and how it all played out makes the poetry even more interesting.
I'd have an empty bookshelf if I refused to read the works of people who have thought, said or done bad things.
I'm completely comfortable with the idea that my favourite musical types are usually complete bellends. Billy Corgan in particular.
Controversial people typically have more interesting backgrounds too. Take Ezra Pound. Lunatic, actual Nazi. Knowing his life story and how it all played out makes the poetry even more interesting.
sixteen-bit
Member
won't stan for milkshake ducks
MickeyPhree
Member
I usually separate but anyone who has stood up and supported Polanski I try to avoid.
PixelatedBookake
Junior Member
*sigh* yeah
Fenderputty
Banned
I doubt anyone is 100% consistent in their application and everyone has varying degrees of what they pick and choose to be acceptable.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Im more willing to look the other way when I consume art if the person isnt a straight, White cisgendered male.
tearsintherain
Member
The end product I completely seperate from the people involved, if its a fairly involved product. For example movies and television shows involve hundreds or more people, and while the director or writer can be hugely influential they are not the only ones who worked on it.
I also seperate out however the financial bottom line, and avoid giving money to people I don't want to support. I wouldn't buy a Roman Polanski or Woody Allen movie because he would get money, but I might watch it on TV or Netflix or something. I think the Cosby Show is just fine because a ton of other people worked on it, but I wouldn't buy a ticket to a Bill Cosby comedy show.
Mostly I don't get too attached or involved with specific stars, like I really like The Fast and The Furious or Marvel comic book movies but I don't know a whole lot about the personal lives of the people involved and don't honestly care about what their religious, political, social, etc views are.
I also seperate out however the financial bottom line, and avoid giving money to people I don't want to support. I wouldn't buy a Roman Polanski or Woody Allen movie because he would get money, but I might watch it on TV or Netflix or something. I think the Cosby Show is just fine because a ton of other people worked on it, but I wouldn't buy a ticket to a Bill Cosby comedy show.
Mostly I don't get too attached or involved with specific stars, like I really like The Fast and The Furious or Marvel comic book movies but I don't know a whole lot about the personal lives of the people involved and don't honestly care about what their religious, political, social, etc views are.
Some people are abhorrent enough to affect my perception of their work, absolutely. At the same time, I understand humans are complicated and hypocrites by nature who grow and learn over time. Not looking for people to slip up so I can call them out and put them on my black list. And we rarely have insight into the true nature of people that work on something we enjoy. But I can't watch Cosby's material now and I have no desire to support Mel Gibson's current endeavors, if those are used as baselines for human trash.
There is a major difference between contemporary and historical figures here. The social and political context of DaVinci's work and his own political views and/or activities is no longer particularly relevant to modern american society.
Also I have no particular objection to stealing and cutting up corpses.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
I've never been a huge fan of Dragon Quest, but Koichi Sugiyama being a POS right-wing revisionist makes me want to not play the series even more.
brianmcdoogle
Member
Maybe I've been taught wrong all my life on what the phrase "separate the art from the artist" means, both in casual and academic settings, but it fucking drives me crazy that it is used by fans, not artists or entertainers, to absolve themselves from criticism for supporting, financially or with views, potentially terrible people. "Separate the entertainer from the person" or whatever means to me that you judge the quality of the work irrespective of how good or bad of a person the artist is. For example, it means going "Richard Wagner's work is amazing, and he's a terrible human being but that shouldn't besmirch his accomplishments in music" not "Richard Wagner is amazing and don't judge me or criticize me for financially supporting him!". The first makes it about the artist and their work, and the second makes it about you. And, it is a personal decision on what you decided to do with your money and eyeballs. If someone wants to keep paying to watch films by Polanski or Allen or Gibson or whoever, that is their prerogative; lord knows I am hypocritical as well as others when it comes to tacitly supporting terrible entertainers in the like. And, it's easy to abstract it when dealing with dead people, but it's more important when the person is alive to decide and take ownership for yourself. Just, own it and don't hide behind some contorted phrase.
No. I can separate the "art," from the "artist," in the sense that I can enjoy entertainment made by a shitty person if his shittiness doesn't seep into the product (though I'll try to stop myself from financially supporting it), but I can't separate the "entertainer," from the "person". They're one in the same, unless we're talking about something like Colbert.
Henchmen21
Banned
Yes. I can still watch the Lethal Weapon movies even though Mel Gibson is a pos. I can still watch The Cosby Show even though Bill Cosby is a sex offender.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
The older I get the more mistakes I make the more forgiving I've become. I'll watch a John Wayne movie and accept that he was a racist SOB. I'm not perfect and Lord knows I have said some shit and instill think certain things like an old man. Life is too short for certain things.
StAidan
Member
I'm generally able to separate my disdain for a person's actions from the person themselves, which maybe makes it easier to enjoy the entertainment as well.
Perhaps I'll get a lot of hate for that distinction, but I never agreed with the idea that we should avoid humanizing those people we consider to be "monsters," because, like it or not, they are very human. It's safer to regard them as cautionary tales against the potential for great evil that resides in all of us. Born and raised in different times or under other circumstances, any one of us could have been a psychopath, a murderer, a Nazi, a slave owner.
For example, JonTron is a guy who (as far as I know) lives a pretty normal American life, doing the same day to day stuff that all of us do. He happens to like video games (which is how most of us would know him). At the same time, he holds certain... ahem... opinions that stem from the same types of human fears and motivations that are universal to everyone.
These Weinstein revelations, while indescribably awful, demonstrate the corrupting effect that money and power bring with them wherever they go. It seems unlikely to me that Harvey Weinstein, as a child, aspired to be a serial sexual predator, rapist, etc. This is something that tends to happen a little bit at a time, smaller lapses in integrity leading to progressively larger ones until you feel free to do whatever you want to anyone.
With that said, I have a harder time with Bill Cosby. Not entirely sure why, but since I grew up watching him on a TV screen, I'd say the feeling is more akin to being betrayed by a family member. It's hard to go back and look at his old material today.
Perhaps I'll get a lot of hate for that distinction, but I never agreed with the idea that we should avoid humanizing those people we consider to be "monsters," because, like it or not, they are very human. It's safer to regard them as cautionary tales against the potential for great evil that resides in all of us. Born and raised in different times or under other circumstances, any one of us could have been a psychopath, a murderer, a Nazi, a slave owner.
For example, JonTron is a guy who (as far as I know) lives a pretty normal American life, doing the same day to day stuff that all of us do. He happens to like video games (which is how most of us would know him). At the same time, he holds certain... ahem... opinions that stem from the same types of human fears and motivations that are universal to everyone.
These Weinstein revelations, while indescribably awful, demonstrate the corrupting effect that money and power bring with them wherever they go. It seems unlikely to me that Harvey Weinstein, as a child, aspired to be a serial sexual predator, rapist, etc. This is something that tends to happen a little bit at a time, smaller lapses in integrity leading to progressively larger ones until you feel free to do whatever you want to anyone.
With that said, I have a harder time with Bill Cosby. Not entirely sure why, but since I grew up watching him on a TV screen, I'd say the feeling is more akin to being betrayed by a family member. It's hard to go back and look at his old material today.
Fulminator
Member
yeah i dont really think about the creator when i'm consuming entertainent.
it kind of just exists in a bubble for me
if i like something i will seek out the person who made it and see if they have more work that i like, but the content is generally independent of the person in my head
honestly it makes my life a lot easier that way, but it could be construed as me not caring if the person is a monster but eh
it kind of just exists in a bubble for me
if i like something i will seek out the person who made it and see if they have more work that i like, but the content is generally independent of the person in my head
honestly it makes my life a lot easier that way, but it could be construed as me not caring if the person is a monster but eh
I really don't want to support pieces of shit financially so I do my best to avoid stuff that would give them any support of that kind. I didn't watch hacksaw ridge because Gibson is a piece of shit. If I were once a wrestling fan or a hulk fan I wouldn't act as though hulk were still cool and i wouldn't quote anything from his dumbass to bolster his presence. I wouldn't enjoy videos from the dipshit you described in the OP anymore so that would be an easy drop. It cam be hard sometimes and I'm not about to do background checks on everyone to see if they're ok, but if it's known, then fuck 'em.
Costanza-san
Banned
I can do it as far as recognizing someone's talent for something, even though that talent may be wasted on a shit person.
I can't bring myself to support a shit person though by consuming whatever art/content they create.
I can't bring myself to support a shit person though by consuming whatever art/content they create.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
i've never had any trouble doing this. chinatown is still a damn good movie. i figure as long as i am able to enjoy that film i can ignore artists' personal lives.
Most of the time, but it's case-to-case. I can't retroactively watch Cosby anymore, certainly, much less anything new he says or does. Everyone has a limit on when they'll say "Alright, enough of you" and some are so bad that anything they did in the past before such revelation of their person is tainted.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
Generally, yes. I'd have no problem enjoying a Polanski film on its own merits, for instance. Knowing that John Lennon was a world-class asshole to his family doesn't make me appreciate his music any less.
Stand-up comedy and YouTube talking heads aren't things that I'm super into anyway, but I can see that being tougher to digest and why those example keep being brought up in the thread-- in those forms of entertainment, arguably more than music or movies, there's not as much of a separation between the entertainer and the product.
Stand-up comedy and YouTube talking heads aren't things that I'm super into anyway, but I can see that being tougher to digest and why those example keep being brought up in the thread-- in those forms of entertainment, arguably more than music or movies, there's not as much of a separation between the entertainer and the product.
Depends on who it is, what kind of thing they make/made, and what they did.
Some forms of art and entertainment are so personality dependent that it would be pretty impossible to separate the two. This hasn't come up for me so far, though, because pretty much every time someone who is either a presenter or comedian or something like that is revealed to be horrible, I never liked them anyway or always suspected they were more than a little off.
It's happened to me with writing more than once. I just grab books, often times old, that catch me for whatever reason without looking into the author or any of the context a lot of the time and this can surprise me sometimes - like finding out certain european writers were nazi sympathisers when the book I just read seems in total contradiction to that. Sometimes it turns out I was interpreting things how I see them rather than how the author did.
Yeah, it just depends. As a rule though, I don't really care what an artist is like in real life either good or bad. Sure good is always nice to know, I guess, but I try/don't really want to spend much time learning about the people behind the work.
Some forms of art and entertainment are so personality dependent that it would be pretty impossible to separate the two. This hasn't come up for me so far, though, because pretty much every time someone who is either a presenter or comedian or something like that is revealed to be horrible, I never liked them anyway or always suspected they were more than a little off.
It's happened to me with writing more than once. I just grab books, often times old, that catch me for whatever reason without looking into the author or any of the context a lot of the time and this can surprise me sometimes - like finding out certain european writers were nazi sympathisers when the book I just read seems in total contradiction to that. Sometimes it turns out I was interpreting things how I see them rather than how the author did.
Yeah, it just depends. As a rule though, I don't really care what an artist is like in real life either good or bad. Sure good is always nice to know, I guess, but I try/don't really want to spend much time learning about the people behind the work.
Agreed. Art is an extension of the person that creates it. Their fears, desires, emotional state, it all has at least some influence on the art itself.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Separating actors is easier than YouTube guys for me because YouTube guys aren't playing characters. For example I can still enjoy lethal weapon but I don't think I'd be able to watch a YouTube video of Mel Gibson talking for 10 min.
Violence Jack
Member
It depends on what they did. I can't watch another Chris Benoit match after knowing he murdered his wife and son. But I can still watch Stone Cold's old matches despite the fact that he used to beat women. I just have no respect for him outside of the ring.
And after meeting a good many celebrities during my convention security days, a lot of them are insufferable jerks, but I can enjoy their craft.
And after meeting a good many celebrities during my convention security days, a lot of them are insufferable jerks, but I can enjoy their craft.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Exactly. Youtube stars' content directly reflects who they are as a person. PDP's character is a complete reflection of him acting outrageous and saying outrageous things on camera for the enjoyment of other people.
His output is not comparable to a musician that might be writing from the perspective of another person, which happens when they create a concept album.
At around age 13, I became a huge Third Eye Blind fan. At around age 15 I met their lead singer and realized he was an incorrigible piece of shit.
In a way, I value that experience because it prepared me for future letdowns (never meet your heroes), and also got me accustomed to, from a young age, separating the art from the artist.
In a way, I value that experience because it prepared me for future letdowns (never meet your heroes), and also got me accustomed to, from a young age, separating the art from the artist.
SomedayTheFire
Member
No. Art is inherently personal, therefore I believe the person behind the art is a huge part of the art.
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