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#PS4NoDRM #XboxOneNoDRM || Now do you "Believe?"

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Here is my immediate thought. If you are an indie developer, the chances are you are going to be digital only. Why does this effect you at all?

Because a healthy AAA market leads to a healthy ecosystem in which to sell indie games. Also when games are traded in the credit can be used to buy PSN/XBL vouchers which consumers can spend on online indie titles. The recycling of $2bn back into the gaming ecosystem from trading in games is beneficial for everyone, not just the big publishers.
 
UPDATED PLAN:

We have successfully made it very, very clear to Sony how we feel. It's our view that it would be best to back off tweeting directly at Sony employees for a bit but we do implore people to keep the hashtag #PS4NoDRM going. We know that this movement is bigger than just this forum and that people will continue to go on however they chose and that's totally cool. We are not trying to put the kabosh on people expressing themselves, but we did want to clarify our own plan.

After several days with just the hashtag simmering we will make one last push on Wednesday, June 5th and try to keep the momentum up on it into that weekend when everyone starts traveling to LA for E3. We will also try to build up a media presence by letting them know that this is coming so maybe we can get some press and the twitter thinking happening at once again.


As for third parties and Microsoft, keep tweeting them. Microsoft has said they are listening. The third parties will ignore us but we'll make sure that's impossible.

Also make sure you check out the last few pages of the thread, we may at any time during this lull be doing some more targeted or fun things. Never rude! Always polite. But, things like tweeting a link to people at Sony with the list of the 150+ links of stories about the movement may be happening, so go have a look.

Allright, I'm all in for the second push at June 5th. Someone else posted about another forum, can't find it now, that wants to give the twitter campaign another push. Should we let dem do their own thing or should we coordinate with them, and with other forums who are planing similar things? Theoretically we have enough time to coordinate something like this. If we could gather enough people for a planed second storm then we can sustain this longer.
Or is this the plan all along?
 
Because a healthy AAA market leads to a healthy ecosystem in which to sell indie games. Also when games are traded in the credit can be used to buy PSN/XBL vouchers which consumers can spend on online indie titles. The recycling of $2bn back into the gaming ecosystem from trading in games is beneficial for everyone, not just the big publishers.

I understand that, but this quote still puzzles me in context :-

As a developer, used game DRM would ensure that we still pocket some cash, at least with Microsofts proposed system, and make money from the sale of a game we created. This means we don’t lose out on as much money as we did with the old method of trading in a game, and that we wouldn’t have to use things such as Online Passes (as seen in use by EA in games like FIFA) or charge a fee because the player doesn’t have an activation code. This could possibly mean the original owner makes less money from the games sale itself.

So like I said, this doesnt seem like a realistic issue for an indie as they will be very unlikely be selling retail games in the first place.
 

Nebula

Member
I understand that, but this quote still puzzles me in context :-



So like I said, this doesnt seem like a realistic issue for an indie as they will be very unlikely be selling retail games in the first place.

I could start by saying that Indie devs don't always stay Indie, and can grow massively from one or two successful titles. This is the future we are looking at after all. I don't know if dojit will ever get that big though but it's still a valid point. I'm glad you read it and have some criticisms though. Thanks for the feedback.

Respect. That article was really well written and brought your point across in a clear, concise and well thought out manner. The fact that its from an indie dev as well gives it a different perspective as most people are probably used to seeing articles from a gaming/tech/mainstream media outlet. Hopefully this will be added to the site. Mind if I tweet it out?

Thanks for the feedback. Feel free to tweet it as well!

Because a healthy AAA market leads to a healthy ecosystem in which to sell indie games. Also when games are traded in the credit can be used to buy PSN/XBL vouchers which consumers can spend on online indie titles. The recycling of $2bn back into the gaming ecosystem from trading in games is beneficial for everyone, not just the big publishers.

Excellent post.
 

ItsYaboi

Neo Member
That is asinine, and there is nothing "smart" about it.
You are missing the entire point of this thread.

If you're a software developer then you cannot compete against gamestop if they're selling your game for a lower price.
That's the problem for developers, publishers....etc.

If you have a solution which is better than mine, which benefits developers as consumers then i'm happy to hear it.

NO DRM is no option, otherwise people will copy the game.
 
If you're a software developer then you cannot compete against gamestop if they're selling your game for a lower price.
That's the problem for developers, publishers....etc.

If you have a solution which is better than mine, which benefits developers as consumers then i'm happy to hear it.

NO DRM is no option, otherwise people will copy the game.

There are options.

Requiring the disc to be in the drive as a key might not be perfect - but it doesn't involve a check to a server that may or may not be running in 10-15 years.
 

10101

Gold Member
If you're a software developer then you cannot compete against gamestop if they're selling your game for a lower price.
That's the problem for developers, publishers....etc.

If you have a solution which is better than mine, which benefits developers as consumers then i'm happy to hear it.

NO DRM is no option, otherwise people will copy the game.
No one is suggesting that game shouldn't have copy protection on it, we are not pirates. There is clearly a difference between the current DRM to prevent that sort of thing and what is being proposed.

Software developers may have to compete against used, as do many other types of products. That does not mean that developers are entitled to a cut of second hand sales, I really don't see why they should be paid again. If there is a solution it does not involve restricting used sales or trying to get a cut of said sales. That is where the issue lies with this for many, it certainly is for me.
 

MasLegio

Banned
There are options.

Requiring the disc to be in the drive as a key might not be perfect - but it doesn't involve a check to a server that may or may not be running in 10-15 years.

yes

I think this would be a good enough secondary check if there is no internet connection or server available. This should not be able to work as long as the console has contact with activation servers though. The only way to bypass this check would be to completely disconnect the Xbox One from the internet. It could then do a recheck when it gets online. If the same unique license has been used at the same time on several consoles it could be locked on all systems until it is reactivated by putting the disc in the original system it was registered to. Further abuse would lead to permanent lock on the license.


with this system the actual game disc would work on all xbox ones if there is no communicatin with the servers. Futureproof.


The 360 has done this for years. Why not just play off the disc? Why bother having installs as an option?

It is more convenient to play installed games. You do not have to find and insert disc, put other disc back in other case. Games load faster
 
There are options.

Requiring the disc to be in the drive as a key might not be perfect - but it doesn't involve a check to a server that may or may not be running in 10-15 years.

The 360 has done this for years. Why not just play off the disc? Why bother having installs as an option?
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
If you're a software developer then you cannot compete against gamestop if they're selling your game for a lower price.
That's the problem for developers, publishers....etc.

If you have a solution which is better than mine, which benefits developers as consumers then i'm happy to hear it.

NO DRM is no option, otherwise people will copy the game.

3 month window for no used games, agreed by all main retail chains? (can't stop personal selling on ebay etc)

by then anyone that wants it badly will have it new, new prices will have dropped, and used won't be such a big impact.


Could probably narrow that to a month with no issues. I think the fact you get almost day one used games isn't good.
 
The 360 has done this for years. Why not just play off the disc? Why bother having installs as an option?
Well data streams off hard drives faster than optical discs. I think installs are a good thing, but I'd much prefer a simple disc check when offline rather than a 24 hour mandatory check in.

If you're a software developer then you cannot compete against gamestop if they're selling your game for a lower price.
That's the problem for developers, publishers....etc.

If you have a solution which is better than mine, which benefits developers as consumers then i'm happy to hear it.

NO DRM is no option, otherwise people will copy the game.
If you're a software developer you're already making a ton of money from GameStop from your new games. GameStops not so bad then, is it? And if they're beating you on price on their used games why can't you offer your digital version for cheaper? Their overhead for used games should be more than overhead on digital games, you should be able to compete.
 
The 360 has done this for years. Why not just play off the disc? Why bother having installs as an option?
Streaming data from an HDD is much faster than from a Blu-Ray drive, iirc.

The problem arises when people want to go "disc-less." I don't really get the latter - I mean it saves you a few seconds - yay?
 

dosh

Member
The 360 has done this for years. Why not just play off the disc? Why bother having installs as an option?

I suppose next-gen games will have huge amounts of data to load, which is faster from a hard drive. I'm ok with required installation if this means an improvement.
But I wouldn't mind having to put the disc in the tray to play. That's still a relevant "drm".

The problem arises when people want to go "disc-less." I don't really get the latter - I mean it saves you a few seconds - yay?
Yeah. And nobody removes the disc from the tray each time they stop playing. I'm currently right in the middle of the Bitterblack section of Dragon's Dogma: I'm not going to put the disc away when I decide to do something else.
 

FyreWulff

Member
The forced install option doesn't even hold water with me as games on the original Xbox were already capable of installing parts of themselves on demand. Halo 3 did this on the 360 if an HDD was present, which actually made it load slower when installed because it was copying from the hard drive to the hardrive, which kills the bandwidth.

... which they haven't clarified, because of the One can multitask, it means other apps can write data to the HDD while your game is reading, meaning HDD bandwidth is going to be affected.
 
Streaming data from an HDD is much faster than from a Blu-Ray drive, iirc.

The problem arises when people want to go "disc-less." I don't really get the latter - I mean it saves you a few seconds - yay?

As someone who wants their entire digital library on an HDD, tied to an account ala Steam, it's just so archaic to me and it's something that should have been a very temporary solution. I also like having physical media, so I suppose I'd be having my cake and eating it too, heh.

Install with a disc check still doesn't solve the piracy issue though.
 

DBT85

Member
3 month window for no used games, agreed by all main retail chains? (can't stop personal selling on ebay etc)

by then anyone that wants it badly will have it new, new prices will have dropped, and used won't be such a big impact.


Could probably narrow that to a month with no issues. I think the fact you get almost day one used games isn't good.

I suggested the exact same thing in a thread a few months ago.

I just don't know if the shops would bite or how gamers would react.

I suppose there would be nothing to stop you trading the games IN before the 3 months are up, but the store couldn't sell them until the specified date.
 
My Idea.

Give the consumer two options:

1) Require the disk to be in the drive just like 360 or PS3. (the current gen system).
2) Tie the game to the user's account. This is a one time thing and will make the disk useless. There would be some benefits to entice users to do it. One of which will be they are no longer required to have the disk in the drive and they can redownload it anytime. Maybe publishers can also give the user extra DLC or the platform holders give the users some Microsoft Points or PS cash to entice the user to do this. Like if you do this for 3-5 games then you get enough money to buy a downloadable game. Some carrot to entice users.

If you really care about selling your game then you just don't tie it to your account and can resell it later. If you don't then you get certain benefits.
 

10101

Gold Member
Streaming data from an HDD is much faster than from a Blu-Ray drive, iirc.

The problem arises when people want to go "disc-less." I don't really get the latter - I mean it saves you a few seconds - yay?
Streaming from a HDD definitely *should* be faster in most instances, 6x Blu Ray works out at about 27MB per second iirc. Still you have to factor in the drive type, interface type and of course fragmentation which could build up over time. Should still be quicker though.

I agree too, if the price of disk less is these DRM measures then that price is too high. If people want to go disk less, go the digital download route lol.
 
As someone who wants their entire digital library on an HDD, tied to an account ala Steam, it's just so archaic to me and it's something that should have been a very temporary solution. I also like having physical media, so I suppose I'd be having my cake and eating it too, heh.

Install with a disc check still doesn't solve the piracy issue though.
Pirates will find a way no matter what. This is a war on used games anyway, I'm sure of that. The pubs see GameStop's money and want a piece of the pie. With piracy there is no pie in the first place.
 
Goooood morning VietGAF!

Allright, I'm all in for the second push at June 5th. Someone else posted about another forum, can't find it now, that wants to give the twitter campaign another push. Should we let dem do their own thing or should we coordinate with them, and with other forums who are planing similar things? Theoretically we have enough time to coordinate something like this. If we could gather enough people for a planed second storm then we can sustain this longer.
Or is this the plan all along?

I'm currently talking with them and trying to convince them to join forces with us. Should be good!


On it, gimme a few.
 

MogCakes

Member
I would like one of the blue avatar thingies if i may :3 (my photoshop hates windows 7 x64 D:)

marrmit_No_DRM.jpg
 
So, EA has apparently dropped the online passes of certain games on XBL while the prices to unlock the pass on PSN still remain the same...
 
So, EA has apparently dropped the online passes of certain games on XBL while the prices to unlock the pass on PSN still remain the same...

A nice PR campaign for goodwill. Still shouldn't have any impact on what is trying to be accomplished. If EA truly wants to show that the company is done with online passes, get rid of the existing ones on PS3 as well. Don't just remove them from the console that your "business partner" already has on the market.
 

Lucid07

Member
So, EA has apparently dropped the online passes of certain games on XBL while the prices to unlock the pass on PSN still remain the same...

So while Microsoft are going their route with EA, I guess online passes are staying on PS4 meaning there is no DRM built into the system?
 

MMaRsu

Banned
So while Microsoft are going their route with EA, I guess online passes are staying on PS4 meaning there is no DRM built into the system?

Sounds good to me! I'll enjoy my ability to resell games at my own will! PS4 for the massive win!
 
So, EA has apparently dropped the online passes of certain games on XBL while the prices to unlock the pass on PSN still remain the same...

Let's wait for the PSN update before saying 100% that EA haven't dropped online passes on PSN. If they don't then I think it is some confirmation of what my third party contact was saying.
 
Let's wait for the PSN update before saying 100% that EA haven't dropped online passes on PSN. If they don't then I think it is some confirmation of what my third party contact was saying.

Obviously it could be nothing. But PSN has already updated for this week. And that seems like something that Sony could slip through without a store update. But I guess we'll see if anything changes next week.
 

Feorax

Member
I think it's an intersting comparison you can make with other media.

People don't have a problem with buying a movie or song on an itunes account, and having the content locked, but would they buy a dvd or cd if that could only be played in exactly the same way?

We might know the subtle difference, but I suspect a lot of the general gaming audience will sooner or later start thinking like this.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I don't want forced DRM, or blocking of used sales. But I also want the convenience of either digitally buying my games, or installing them from disc and not needing the disc to play. Doesn't the latter inevitably require the former though?

Maybe it's a question of choice. If I choose to play without a disc, I accept what that means (some kind of steam like online DRM at least for activation). But I also have the choice to play from the disc with no strings attached.
 
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