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Ysiadmihi · Feb 28, 2011

dalemurphy said:
But how does everyone know it's not a game that someone wants to play.

The conclusions that some of you are jumping to are amazing. From the demo I played, it wasn't that different at all from the first game. There's a conversation wheel, a few less skills, more (optional) button mashing, one main character, and a better graphics engine. The "streamlining" comments are really overblown, especially for console players.

Some people are so allergic to the thought of making something more appealing to the masses that they can't enjoy something for what it is.

The demo I played felt significantly different from DA:O. It feels like a clumsy mish-mash of an action game and tactical RPG and excels at neither.

By the way, you don't have to remind everyone that they've only played a demo of the full game. We know. A demo is supposed to give you a taste of what to expect in the full game and if it's really doing it's job, then I know the game is not for me (at least not until it's cheap as hell on Steam).

HeadlessRoland · Feb 28, 2011

dalemurphy said:
So now it sucks? That is an amazing leap that you just made.

Some people are so allergic to the thought of making something more appealing to the masses that they can't enjoy something for what it is.

What? If an IP in a bid to attract a broader audience becomes a game one does not like (sucks) why would they care if it is continued?

I think the issue is that the masses are stupid, so a game that panders with them in mind is by default a negative. Which is why DA2 is a button masher with graphics that are on a sega CD level.

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

My biggest problem with DA:O (which I enjoyed on console) was stupid shit that comes from its PC heritage. The whole affair was buggy as hell, especially when you get to the DLC. I defy anyone to play Awakenings all the way through without the Rosetta Stone of Wikia to help you through all the bullshit.

Oops, Sigrun's companion quest won't start if you've already done the unrelated "Law and Order" quest (actually, L&O messes up several things unless you do it at the end, which is dumb because it's the very first thing you're presented with the first time you step into the game's only city).
Oops, Justice and Sigrun's approval systems are bugged and don't work if you've already done the unrelated Blight Orphans quests.
Oops, Sigrun doesn't become a Grey Warden unless you leave the dungeon early, go back to Vigil's Keep and let her join, then return to the dungeon and finish. Even though she doesn't want to become a grey Warden until you finish the dungeon.
Oops, my player character suddenly has an arm sticking out like he's holding a sword. Nobody knows what triggers this, but it'll be that way for the rest of the game, unless I go back to an earlier save.
Oops, "Bombs Away" can't be finished for no goddamned reason.
Oops, several other quests can't be finished, also for no reason.
Oops, people constantly move their lips with no sound (which you're then supposed to respond to, without knowing what they said).
Oops, when you enter the Silverite Mine, there's a 50/50 change all your gear disappears forever. If you save afterwards, you've broken your playthrough. You won't know this until twenty minutes after the stuff disappears, because in the story you get captured and stripped of your goods. If the bug happens, you never get it back.
Oops, unless you've uninstalled the Warden's Keep DLC, the best Armor in the game can't be seen. Oh, Wade will still make it for you, but you just can't see it, even when it's equipped.
Oops, the same statement applies to the best sword in the game. By the way, on PS3, the only way to uninstall Warden's Keep is to uninstall everything, then reinstall everything except Warden's Keep.

I could go on and on. This list could easily be three times as long. AND, this is all stuff that's wrong with Awakenings. Don't even get me started on how often Darkspawn Chronicles crashes. Or how Witch Hunt has the cruelest bug of all at the very end, which, if it happens, requires you to replay ALL 20+ hours of all the DLC again (if you still care enough to fix it).

So why do I blame PC gaming for this bullshit? Because the vast majority of these issues have a fix of some kind, if you delete a .dll or copy/paste an .exe, or install somebody's mod. In most cases, Bioware figured said fix was good enough, and the console audience could go fuck themselves. Ironically, this is the kind of PC gaming stupidity that has always kept me on consoles. You put in the game and it works. Bioware comes from a PC background where they expect consumers to research how to fix their games. A "patch it later" mentality.

So if DA2 is catered more toward 360/PS3, I'm totally on board. Especially if that refers to the level of compatibility.

HeadlessRoland · Feb 28, 2011

You simply have to be kidding. The buggy mass produced DLC is from the lineage of PC games?

graywolf323 · Feb 28, 2011

LOL this is a great OT

subversus · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
So why do I blame PC gaming for this bullshit? Because the vast majority of these issues have a fix of some kind, if you delete a .dll or copy/paste an .exe, or install somebody's mod. In most cases, Bioware figured said fix was good enough, and the console audience could go fuck themselves. Ironically, this is the kind of PC gaming stupidity that has always kept me on consoles. You put in the game and it works. Bioware comes from a PC background where they expect consumers to research how to fix their games. A "patch it later" mentality.

So if DA2 is catered more toward 360/PS3, I'm totally on board. Especially if that refers to the level of compatibility.

yeah, I see and understand frustration but damn, I love me some fixing! Definitely not for everybody though.

truly101 · Feb 28, 2011

How did the console versions of DA:O do? I thought they were pretty successful. I think that was the one thing I was always confused about in this redesign or streamlining or whatever.

psykomyko · Feb 28, 2011

Amazing OT!

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

HeadlessRoland said:
You simply have to be kidding. The buggy mass produced DLC is from the lineage of PC games?

Can you think of a console game that has ever been this ridiculous? And it wasn't just the DLC, the main game had plenty, too, although they cared enough to patch most of it. Which to me, shouldn't fly either. I've spent my whole life playing games where you pull the cartridge out of the shrink wrap, and it's a finished product.

Yes, buying games that they'll get around to finishing later (or in this case, NOT ever finishing) comes from the PC gaming world.

subversus said:
yeah, I see and understand frustration but damn, I love me some fixing! Definitely not for everybody though.

Well... I can almost kind of see this argument. I do understand that tweaking things and fooling around on PC is a lot of the fun for some people. But shame on Bioware for putting the same game on consoles, where you CAN'T fix it.

FLEABttn · Feb 28, 2011

AranhaHunter said:
I played the demo on PS3 and am kinda interested. Should I play the DA1 first?

Maybe you'll like it and maybe you won't, but the framerate for the PS3 version is just awful. Detracts from the game in a big way.

I didn't play Origins on PC, but I don't felt like it translated to console well, so it's hard to say. Either either your game, or it's not, and even if it's your kind of game, you might not like how it plays on the PS3.

Ysiadmihi · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Can you think of a console game that has ever been this ridiculous? And it wasn't just the DLC, the main game had plenty, too, although they cared enough to patch most of it. Which to me, shouldn't fly either. I've spent my whole life playing games where you pull the cartridge out of the shrink wrap, and it's a finished product.

Yes, buying games that they'll get around to finishing later (or in this case, NOT ever finishing) comes from the PC gaming world.

Maybe you should blame Bioware instead of using PC gaming as a scapegoat.

But that's okay. I blame the dumbing down of DA2 on console gaming so I guess that makes us even...or something?

truly101 said:
How did the console versions of DA:O do? I thought they were pretty successful. I think that was the one thing I was always confused about in this redesign or streamlining or whatever.

I could be way off with this, but I thought I heard somewhere that EA always wanted DA:O to play like DA2 but it was already too far along in development to just change everything when they picked up Bioware, so if that's true I guess they got their wish with DA2.

vocab · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
So why do I blame PC gaming for this bullshit? Because the vast majority of these issues have a fix of some kind, if you delete a .dll or copy/paste an .exe, or install somebody's mod. In most cases, Bioware figured said fix was good enough, and the console audience could go fuck themselves. Ironically, this is the kind of PC gaming stupidity that has always kept me on consoles. You put in the game and it works. Bioware comes from a PC background where they expect consumers to research how to fix their games. A "patch it later" mentality.

dur hur dur. Consoles become more like PC's every day. Ever since they got internet connectivity, the release now, patch later mentality has been in full effect. Have fun with your mini PC. The reason PC is so god damn amazing is because the community works harder than the actually developers. Also, it's not the communities fault that the devs are downright stupid. A respectable Dev fixes the problems.

I blame consoles for Horse armor.

Duane Cunningham said:
Can you think of a console game that has ever been this ridiculous?

Fallout 3.

dalemurphy · Feb 28, 2011

Ysiadmihi said:
The demo I played felt significantly different from DA:O. It feels like a clumsy mish-mash of an action game and tactical RPG and excels at neither.

I agree with that and actually think they should have gone further down the action route. The first game also had combat that felt like a clumsy mish-mash but I enjoyed it regardless.

By the way, you don't have to remind everyone that they've only played a demo of the full game. We know. A demo is supposed to give you a taste of what to expect in the full game and if it's really doing it's job, then I know the game is not for me (at least not until it's cheap as hell on Steam).

RPGs are one of the hardest genres to demo. For instance, what kind of conclusions could you draw about the gameplay from any demo of FF13?

What? If an IP in a bid to attract a broader audience becomes a game one does not like (sucks) why would they care if it is continued?

I think the issue is that the masses are stupid, so a game that panders with them in mind is by default a negative. Which is why DA2 is a button masher with graphics that are on a sega CD level.

There are two points:

1. You don't know that it sucks
2. Making something appealing to a broader audience doesn't make it suck, and in most cases, I'd argue that it actually improves the final product. Complexity != depth.

And I'm STILL waiting to see what's so different and dumbed down about DA2.

HeadlessRoland · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Yes, buying games that they'll get around to finishing later (or in this case, NOT ever finishing) comes from the PC gaming world.

No, it comes from shitty developers world. Spammed buggy DLC is targeting the console demographic, period. Every single example you gave was related DLC, yet you are trying to attribute this to PC game development which is derp.

So while your blaming of the PC is moronic, blaming consoles for shitty graphics, gouging horse armor DLC and dumbed down gameplay is blatantly the results of pandering to console gamers.

There are two points:

1. You don't know that it sucks
2. Making something appealing to a broader audience doesn't make it suck, and in most cases, I'd argue that it actually improves the final product. Complexity != depth.

There are two rebuttals.

1. Knowing that it sucks has no bearing on the argument, period. You bringing it up demonstrates you simply do not understand the conversation.

2. Who said appealing to a broader audience automatically makes it suck? Im sure to the majority (morons) it is seen as a vast improvement. Sadly to those that are not dumb view it as a negative.

-tetsuo- · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Can you think of a console game that has ever been this ridiculous? And it wasn't just the DLC, the main game had plenty, too, although they cared enough to patch most of it. Which to me, shouldn't fly either. I've spent my whole life playing games where you pull the cartridge out of the shrink wrap, and it's a finished product.

Yes, buying games that they'll get around to finishing later (or in this case, NOT ever finishing) comes from the PC gaming world.

Well... I can almost kind of see this argument. I do understand that tweaking things and fooling around on PC is a lot of the fun for some people. But shame on Bioware for putting the same game on consoles, where you CAN'T fix it.

You're blaming PC gaming for bugs that Bioware failed to fix? Really?

Zeliard · Feb 28, 2011

_tetsuo_ said:
You're blaming PC gaming for bugs that Bioware failed to fix? Really?

To be fair, that isn't the most hilarious thing posted in this thread.

Ysiadmihi · Feb 28, 2011

Zeliard said:
To be fair, that isn't the most hilarious thing posted in this thread.

I'm curious how he'd react if DA2 ends up a buggy mess on console as well.

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

Don't get me wrong, BioWare deserves plenty of blame, too. But I think they got away with it, to an extent, because on PC there are customers willing to help with the lifting.

To put it another way, THIS:

vocab said:
The reason PC is so god damn amazing is because the community works harder than the actually developers.

Doesn't strike me as a positive. At all.

chris-013 · Feb 28, 2011

Old video ? http://www.gamespot.com/shows/now-playing/?event=now_playing_dragon_age_ii20110222

HadesGigas · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Don't get me wrong, BioWare deserves plenty of blame, too. But I think they got away with it, to an extent, because on PC there are customers willing to help with the lifting.

To put it another way, THIS:

Doesn't strike me as a positive. At all.

More of a positive than being shit outta luck on consoles. Either way it's a negative that the devs are slow/lazy with fixes, naturally.

vocab · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Doesn't strike me as a positive. At all.

Why? We do what the devs don't. It's fucking sad because they have the financial backing to get shit fixed, but people who love the game, fix it for free. You can't get that anywhere else.

Leatherface · Feb 28, 2011

Probably one of the best |OT| threads I've read in some time. Nice work! lol

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

Ysiadmihi said:
I'm curious how he'd react if DA2 ends up a buggy mess on console as well.

Actually, the demo crashed on me right at the end. I was so pissed off I was ready to cancel my Sig Edition. But I didn't.

DA is the only BioWare game I've ever played (maybe that's part of the problem too). I'm probably done with them, thanks to how buggy the first one was, but I played it over 200 hours, read the novels, played the flash games, etc etc, and really did enjoy the lore, dialogue, voices and the gameplay, etc. So I am looking forward to DA2, but if it's another bugfest... fuck 'em.

Ysiadmihi · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Don't get me wrong, BioWare deserves plenty of blame, too. But I think they got away with it, to an extent, because on PC there are customers willing to help with the lifting.

Bioware deserves all of the blame for the bugs. They also deserve all of the blame for throwing a shoddy port at console gamers. Maybe you should find another way to vent your rage at PC gaming?

FunkyPajamas · Feb 28, 2011

Ysiadmihi said:
I'm curious how he'd react if DA2 ends up a buggy mess on console as well.

When, not if, when.

HeadlessRoland · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Actually, the demo crashed on me right at the end. I was so pissed off I was ready to cancel my Sig Edition. But I didn't.

So even when the game is focusing on consoles it was still a buggy mess? Seems to undermine your "point".

mjc · Feb 28, 2011

All the hate for this game is entertaining. I can see how the changes to gameplay might have turned people off, but those changes make for an infinitely more enjoyable experience on consoles. DA:O's combat was sooooooooo slow and clunky on consoles it wasn't even funny.

Zeliard · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Don't get me wrong, BioWare deserves plenty of blame, too. But I think they got away with it, to an extent, because on PC there are customers willing to help with the lifting.

How do you argue this as a negative for PC gaming? The onus is on the developer to make his game work properly.

That the PC is an open enough platform to allow for a very wide range of free and substantial post-release content from the community should be seen as a very GOOD thing. Some user-created mods on the PC have been created into entire franchises, like Team Fortress, which got its start as a mod for the original Quake.

dalemurphy · Feb 28, 2011

HeadlessRoland said:
There are two rebuttals.

1. Knowing that it sucks has no bearing on the argument, period. You bringing it up demonstrates you simply do not understand the conversation.

2. Who said appealing to a broader audience automatically makes it suck? Im sure to the majority (morons) it is seen as a vast improvement. Sadly to those that are not dumb view it as a negative.

1. I understand the conversation, but I'm trying to cut it off at the head because the whole conversation starts off with the dubious assumption..

2. That's the basis for the whole DA2 resistance. Every single complaint is that it's "dumbed down," so therefore it must suck. And I STILL am waiting for someone to explain exactly how it's dumbed down, especially on the console side.

Fimbulvetr · Feb 28, 2011

truly101 said:
I think you can streamline without dumbing down, and to me, ME2 is an example of this. I'm sure lots of people disagree, but those people won't admit that the original ME was a really shitty RPG.

That said, I've never believed that DA needed the ME treatment. Its a traditional RPG

Mass effect 1 was a mediocre game, but lack of streamlining had nothing to do with it.

It was the the shitty menus, haphazard loot system, awkward controls, bland and featureless planets, and repetitive side missions.

But I loved it somehow, maybe I just really wanted the concept to come true.

That said, streamlining and dumbing down are not always one and the same.

dalemurphy said:
RPGs are one of the hardest genres to demo. For instance, what kind of conclusions could you draw about the gameplay from any demo of FF13?

That it's linear as all hell?

HeadlessRoland · Feb 28, 2011

So you can follow the conversation and have read the thread yet are STILL waiting to understand how its been dumbed down? And you are not "cutting off" anything, you just dont understand whats being discussed.

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

Zeliard said:
How do you argue this as a negative for PC gaming? The onus is on the developer to make his game work properly.

That the PC is an open enough platform to allow for a very wide range of free and substantial post-release content from the community should be seen as a very GOOD thing. Some user-created mods on the PC have been created into entire franchises, like Team Fortress, which got its start as a mod for the original Quake.

Well, obviously fun mods using the same engine aren't a negative. I mean, that's always true. One day I played every Zelda hack/mod I could get my hands on, and it was a lot of fun.

But, expecting the debug process (or some degree of it) for the actual product to happen on the user side is just nonsense.

Salsa · Feb 28, 2011

Hey Evil, do you even own consoles ?

just curious

KittyKittyBangBang · Feb 28, 2011

The greatness of this thread can not be understated. Pure gold

GuitarAtomik · Feb 28, 2011

Haunted said:
Well neither does DA2, apparently.

Bullshit.

Honestly the only differences I've noticed from the demo and DA:O combat wise is that it's faster paced, a little stylized (ie more exaggerated/less realistic moves), your characters are more responsive, and you can't pull the camera up as far. All of these made it more fun to me (though the stylization I could take or leave).

Zeliard · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
But, expecting the debug process (or some degree of it) for the actual product to happen on the user side is just nonsense.

Of course it is, but that's a problem with the developer, not the PC gaming community. If some devs are feeling complacent because PC gamers will simply take matters into their own hands, again, that's a problem with those developers. They're just not doing their jobs.

Ysiadmihi · Feb 28, 2011

dalemurphy said:
That's the basis for the whole DA2 resistance. Every single complaint is that it's "dumbed down," so therefore it must suck. And I STILL am waiting for someone to explain exactly how it's dumbed down, especially on the console side.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how it hasn't been.

...see how that works? You could list a billion reasons why you think a certain aspect of the game is better and I could say no to every single one of them. You like the faster paced combat? I don't, so the combat is dumbed down. Stop asking dead-end questions

vocab · Feb 28, 2011

SalsaShark said:
Hey Evil, do you even own consoles ?

just curious

He does.

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

HeadlessRoland said:
So even when the game is focusing on consoles it was still a buggy mess? Seems to undermine your "point".

My optimism that having the gameplay be more console oriented will equal better, more console-like QA standards is probably too optimistic. Yes, I know that.

Confidence Man · Feb 28, 2011

dalemurphy said:
1. I understand the conversation, but I'm trying to cut it off at the head because the whole conversation starts off with the dubious assumption..

2. That's the basis for the whole DA2 resistance. Every single complaint is that it's "dumbed down," so therefore it must suck. And I STILL am waiting for someone to explain exactly how it's dumbed down, especially on the console side.

Less class flexibility
Less tactical combat
No playable races
No isometric camera
No upgradable skills
Can't change party members' attire
Can't change party members' weapon specializations
I'm sure there's more we don't even know about yet.

Skirn · Feb 28, 2011

The screenshots at the bottom of the OP are pretty funny. The look on the dude's face when he's totally engulfed in flames; it's like he's staring into the Void... and the "DK Mode" Darkspawn in the third screen (camera angle, I know). :lol

truly101 · Feb 28, 2011

Ysiadmihi said:
Maybe you should blame Bioware instead of using PC gaming as a scapegoat.

Well you have a lot of PC snobs blaming consoles for this trainwreck, when again, its Bioware at fault, not the PS3 or 360.

vocab · Feb 28, 2011

truly101 said:
Well you have a lot of PC snobs blaming consoles for this trainwreck, when again, its Bioware at fault, not the PS3 or 360.

It's true. Bioware sold out, and completely forgot where they came from. Happens to a lot of good PC devs, and they become mediocre developers to make money instead of good games.

HeadlessRoland · Feb 28, 2011

truly101 said:
Well you have a lot of PC snobs blaming consoles for this trainwreck, when again, its Bioware at fault, not the PS3 or 360.

All of the changes are entirely related to the console focus, this is not conjecture the developer freely admits it. Yes, its Biowares fault for pandering to consoles. Nobody is blaming the console itself, where as one dude is directly blaming PC's for some reason that nobody has been able to discern.

Coxswain · Feb 28, 2011

HeadlessRoland said:
So you can follow the conversation and have read the thread yet are STILL waiting to understand how its been dumbed down? And you are not "cutting off" anything, you just dont understand whats being discussed.

I haven't seen anybody offer a cogent explanation of how the game's combat has been dumbed down, other than a few people being worried that shunting friendly fire up a couple of difficulty levels comes part and parcel with other changes that water down the difficulty at higher levels of the game (despite the direct effects of FF being unchanged between DAO and DA2).

Plenty of people pointing out depth-neutral changes like combat speed and the introduction of 'fodder' enemies, then trying and failing to connect those to the idea of "dumbing it down", but not a whole lot of reasoned arguments. "This is different -> I don't like it now -> It is therefore dumbed down" is not an argument.

You can make better arguments about non-combat areas of the game, but considering 95% of the gameplay in both games is contained in the combat, I don't know if that's really an avenue worth pursuing.

kai3345 · Feb 28, 2011

truly101 said:
Well you have a lot of PC snobs blaming consoles for this trainwreck, when again, its Bioware at fault, not the PS3 or 360.

There's a difference between bugs, and changing the playstyle of the game.

tmacairjordan87 · Feb 28, 2011

Mediocre is highly subjective and is expected coming from hurt pc fans. They just put out one of the best games this gen last year, and juding from the lurking I did back then on here, is perceived as "consolized" (which is starting to mean that the game is really damn good to me, judging from gaf's track record with that term)

Stinkdog · Feb 28, 2011

This whole thread is hysterical! Thank you, Gaf, for keeping me entertained all day at work. 8D

kai3345 · Feb 28, 2011

Duane Cunningham said:
Can you think of a console game that has ever been this ridiculous? .

Mass Effect was pretty buggy, that was console exclusive.

Same with GTA IV.

Both of these were only ported to PC months after release.

Duane Cunningham · Feb 28, 2011

HeadlessRoland said:
So even when the game is focusing on consoles it was still a buggy mess? Seems to undermine your "point".

HeadlessRoland said:
So while your blaming of the PC is moronic

HeadlessRoland said:
All of the changes are entirely related to the console focus, this is not conjecture the developer freely admits it. Yes, its Biowares fault for pandering to consoles. Nobody is blaming the console itself, where as one dude is directly blaming PC's for some reason that nobody has been able to discern.

Quit it.

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