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Night.Ninja
Banned
(04-21-2017, 01:24 PM)
Savagery
Pepboy
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:46 PM)
Pepboy's Avatar

Originally Posted by Arkeband

But the act of defiling a corpse serves some symbolic and spiritual importance, which makes it useless in a secular society, and it just becomes gross instead of being righteous. When they beat the corpse with paddles, they were still punishing 'him'. Without the idea of a spirit, 'him' stops being 'him' once he dies.

So are you complaining that religion made them kill him, or that religion made them beat a dead corpse?

The latter seems far less worrying than the former.
sazzy
pronounced "sassy"
(04-21-2017, 02:34 PM)
sazzy's Avatar
and again...

A mob attacked a man and beat him brutally inside a mosque in Chitral after he was accused of uttering blasphemous remarks following Friday prayers.

The man, who is yet to be identified, is alleged to have pushed the imam of the mosque to allow him to speak after jummah prayers, a local present at the site told DawnNews. Eyewitnesses claim the man then uttered blasphemous remarks amidst the prayer gathering.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1328360/mo...hemous-remarks
dan2026
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:42 PM)
dan2026's Avatar
Isnt killing people against this religion?

Surely if you murder someone you too are going to whatever hell equivalent.
Izuna
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:45 PM)
Izuna's Avatar

Originally Posted by backslashbunny

Religion is a mistake.

What would you replace it with though?

Non-academics need a reason to follow the rules of society. Just like the bogeyman keeping kids in check, religion keeps the bullshit fabric of society untested... Well, it's supposed to anyway.

The problem is that I fear, these kids just wanted to fuck someone up and found an excuse to do so. I don't think they are solely motivated by their religious beliefs.

But you're not wrong that religion sucks.
Septic360
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Izuna

What would you replace it with though?

Non-academics need a reason to follow the rules of society. Just like the bogeyman keeping kids in check, religion keeps the bullshit fabric of society untested... Well, it's supposed to anyway.

The problem is that I fear, these kids just wanted to fuck someone up and found an excuse to do so. I don't think they are solely motivated by their religious beliefs.

But you're not wrong that religion sucks.

Nice- anyone who follows religion is part of that bullshit fabric of society. Well done.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:55 PM)

Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

Snip

Unless, you had something good to say with a thought provoking introduction statement instead of "clutching my pearls" it would have made sense to interject your opinion on a one to one discussion.

You're literally complaining about me asking to keep the level of the decorum in a discussion without profanities? Typical to hype it up as oppression.

As far as the rest of your post goes. LOL. I'm not going to even bother with you. I had a good look at your post history... seriously, keep up with the anti-Islam agenda. And keep insulting me trying to get personal about "English" being my first language.

And of course I will defend it. I'm Muslim, I know my religion better than you. I also know my country and its people better than you or anyone here infact. For some reason, it's a bad thing to condemn acts like these, being on the same side but then be generalized into the same clump of people by westerners because "you're still a Muslim tho" none the less. Logic.

If I start calling your beliefs stupid, moronic and absurd because some bad eggs decided to be assholes about it. That would be offensive to you as well.

Originally Posted by blu

You can clearly tell a participant in a conversation on a public forum has lost it when they ask other forumites to 'mind their own business'. Just saying.

I don't have a problem with people who aren't trying their hardest to be offensive on an initial post on purpose. Feel free to step in without getting personal.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 03:06 PM.
Smellycat
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mimosa97

Waiting for the religious brigade to tell us that religion isn't the problem and that the same stuff is happening in the western so we're in no place of judging

Horrifying story. Rip to the victim.

Religion is not the problem. I am Muslim and I know my religion. This is unacceptable behavior
SlimySnake
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:13 PM)
SlimySnake's Avatar

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Pakistan's roots were NOT... I repeat... NOT made on the principle of Islamic dominance. While at the same time, it was made to be able to avoid the persecution from Hindus in India as a majority theology and a daunting populous that made the Muslim community look like dwarfs. To which Indian Muslims are finally starting to go through as Hindu radicalism rises under Modi. It's too bad Pakistan has now become the exact embodiment of what it was trying to avoid. All this because the Quaid also passed away 2 years after the formation of Pakistan hence, the constitution of the country being hijacked from the get go.

If you want to see Pakistan's idea of secularism, it starts with the name itself, then the flag, it's provinces and the language we speak. Quite frankly, your argument at this point is embarrassing.

I mean damn, are you going to refute Jinnah's speech now? Guess you were right there as Jinnah's advisor, right. Please stop. You're reaching for straws.

Are you daft? The fact that I as a Pakistani am providing you facts and you choosing to refute them is borderline silly. I don't have to an apologist to you for Isis as wannabe Muslims just as how blasphemy law is something I don't even believe should exist. It was a political stance taken by the PPP during Bhutto's PM status and Zia Ul Haq's dictatorship. Pakistanis here have nothing to prove to you.

Yea, the point is to give you some historical context. If you think any Pakistani here ON NEOGAF has to denounce something like a "murder" of a person should skew your biased point of view against us in the first place is quite frankly hilarious.

i dont need to be given historical context. i was born in pakistan, and was taught their bullshit version of the history you are repeating right now and then looked up what really happened after i left. call it western propaganda but i trust BBC's versions of historical events more than PTVs. Same goes for Historical scholars over Pakistani textbooks.

Plenty of Pakistanis have denounced this murder. This is not about condemning the murder. thats easy. this is about Imran Khan and Pakistan's reluctance to repeal that law. The law is the root of the problem here. You cant have a law like that and not expect mobs to use that law to justify their barbaric behavior. All i have heard so far is people trying to justify Imran Khan's statements. All that tells me is that support to repeal this law just isnt there in Pakistan. That looks really bad on Pakistanis.

I am not saying pakistan was the original Islamic State. When i say Pakistan was created for muslims, i mean just that. A safe haven for muslims who didnt want to be marginalized by the hindu majority in India. You seem to agree with me on this. Whether or not it was a good idea to create Pakistan is a topic for another day.

Where did I refute Jinnah's statement? just what are you going on about? I literally said the blasphemy laws go against his ideals. He should've known better though. you cant create a country for muslims and then not expect them to implement sharia laws. you like to throw insults around so i will follow your lead and say he was a bit 'naive' and 'daft' to not expect muslims to turn pakistan into this super conservative hell it is right now.

Oh and no, you dont get to blame it all on a dictator like Zia ul Haq. PP has been in power THREE times since then and they could've repealed this law by democratic means but they didnt. Pakistanis have EVERYTHING to prove to me. Go out there and ask for this law to be repealed.
Last edited by SlimySnake; 04-21-2017 at 03:15 PM.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 03:15 PM)

Originally Posted by sephi22

Lmao. This isn't Pakistan or Saudi, uncle. No tonal policing here. Nothing unintelligible about swearing if it gets your point across.

Shukria, for the message Aunty. Must be so amazing to flail around behind the Atheism flag while being so "tolerant" of everyone else who do have beliefs. If religion didn't work for you. The that's fine. It was your own personal choice. The rest of what you're doing is projection.

"Religion is a cancer"... is as offensive of a tone as it gets.

Profanity is intelligible now? Let me trademark it;
Fuck: It WILL get your points across.
Lister
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:34 PM)
Lister's Avatar
Religion is absolutely the problem. Or one of the problems. Ignorance and poverty are others.

When you have a system that punishes the use of logic, skepticism and reason, like religion does, and isntead rewards ignorance, superstition and an absolute deference to authority (legitimate or not), well, it's a system in which horrible shit can, and WILL happen.

Christianity was hardly any better just a few centuries ago, it took a lot humanist and scientific/social luminaries to drag most of western civilization kicking and screaming into a morality that didn't include fucking everyone over who wasn't part of the principal religion.

When your entire moral system is based not on logic or reason or compassion for your fellow human being, but on differing intepretations of bronze age sheepherders mythology, well it's just as easy to convince some of these people to do good things as it is to convince them to do bad things.

Throw in ignorance and poverty and people in power all too interested in keeping the status quo, and you've got the perfect cocktail for religious extremists. The rulign elite can keep the bastards worried about the ::gasp:: homesexuals and blasphemers, and those other guys with a different religion, and praying 10 times per day, instead of thinking: "Gee, those fuckers up there sure are living it up, while we work our asses off in the fields and live in the dirt".
Last edited by Lister; 04-21-2017 at 03:38 PM.
sephi22
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by SlimySnake

snip

After that guy who was denouncing the blasphemy laws got killed by his own bodyguard, I don't see repeal of blasphemy laws getting traction anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Shukria, for the message Aunty. Must be so amazing to flail around behind the Atheism flag while being so "tolerant" of everyone else who do have beliefs. If religion didn't work for you. The that's fine. It was your own personal choice. The rest of what you're doing is projection.

"Religion is a cancer"... is as offensive of a tone as it gets.

Profanity is intelligible now? Let me trademark it;
Fuck: It WILL get your points across.

You conveniently ignored the rest of my post. Humans have believed in a higher power since we were cavemen, because we couldn't explain a lot of phenomenon occurring around us. We are smarter now, but if someone has faith, I respect them. But I don't respect organized religion.

There's a difference between believing that God has your back vs. believing everything in a book written by man, or believing what a self-appointed saint or sadhu tells you. It applies as much to the 'Jesus hates fags' crowd as well as 'Allah hates blashphemers' crowd. Perhaps this doesn't apply to you but it applies to the men who lynched this guy. Faith is good. Organized religion is just men subjugating other men through fear of a being that may or may not be real, and telling them what to do or think.

If you find that offensive, I don't know what to tell you. Sorry?
AcademicSaucer
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Smellycat

Religion is not the problem. I am Muslim and I know my religion. This is unacceptable behavior

13 countries in the world have the death penalty as punishment for blasphemy, in all of them the reason for that is Islam. You simply cannot say that religion isn't the problem.
BadWolf
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Smellycat

Religion is not the problem. I am Muslim and I know my religion. This is unacceptable behavior

It is the problem.

The core reason and justification for the man's death was based on religion.

Saying otherwise is complete ignorance.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:00 PM)

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

i dont need to be given historical context. i was born in pakistan, and was taught their bullshit version of the history you are repeating right now and then looked up what really happened after i left. call it western propaganda but i trust BBC's versions of historical events more than PTVs. Same goes for Historical scholars over Pakistani textbooks.

Plenty of Pakistanis have denounced this murder. This is not about condemning the murder. thats easy. this is about Imran Khan and Pakistan's reluctance to repeal that law. The law is the root of the problem here. You cant have a law like that and not expect mobs to use that law to justify their barbaric behavior. All i have heard so far is people trying to justify Imran Khan's statements. All that tells me is that support to repeal this law just isnt there in Pakistan. That looks really bad on Pakistanis.

I am not saying pakistan was the original Islamic State. When i say Pakistan was created for muslims, i mean just that. A safe haven for muslims who didnt want to be marginalized by the hindu majority in India. You seem to agree with me on this. Whether or not it was a good idea to create Pakistan is a topic for another day.

Where did I refute Jinnah's statement? just what are you going on about? I literally said the blasphemy laws go against his ideals. He should've known better though. you cant create a country for muslims and then not expect them to implement sharia laws. you like to throw insults around so i will follow your lead and say he was a bit 'naive' and 'daft' to not expect muslims to turn pakistan into this super conservative hell it is right now.

Oh and no, you dont get to blame it all on a dictator like Zia ul Haq. PP has been in power THREE times since then and they could've repealed this law by democratic means but they didnt. Pakistanis have EVERYTHING to prove to me. Go out there and ask for this law to be repealed.

Being born in Pakistan isn't enough for you to generalize people in an ever changing socio political situation that you have no idea about. Before, I thought you had some kind of party affiliated agenda but now I just see you're clueless. When was the last time you went to Pakistan? And which part of Pakistan are you from?

You're going to trust your post colonization overlords to give you a better version of history than the actual locals who went through the partition? I guess the Sikh, Mahajirs, Hindus, Bengalis, Balochi, Persian, Parsi, Pakhtuns, Hazara, Kashmiris, Christian and Muslim elders I've actually met in person must be lying out of their ass. And PTV is state owned. Why would I believe that? I've actually gone to Pakistan from 2011-2014 and studied whatever I could to understand my roots and discern my own idea while doing an M.Phil in Communications "by their standards" under a secular management.

And what bullshit? The fact that I presented videos to counter your lack of knowledge that you get from your parents or uncles? You're the one spewing nonsense since I saw your earlier posts. Most western Pakistanis living abroad have some kind of sense of superiority and look down on everyone else which coming back I totally felt.

You cannot reappeal a law with 90% of your populace being part of the indoctrinated looney bin. Even Musharraf didn't do this because he would be dead the next day even being an all powerful dictator. You want to know how Murderers are treated after being killed by the state? Look up Mumtaz Qadri's funeral on YouTube. He was the one who Murdered Salman Taseer, the then governer of Punjab. He's now hailed as a martyr and his son is now claimed to be some sort of religious beacon of hope.

If Jinnah was alive for at least 10 more years. We could have seen Pakistan in his vision. But let's agree that such a large Muslim populous turning out to be overwhelming against everyone else was already going to happen. This has happened everywhere around the world. You can see the same kind of dissent happening in western nations now with the full swing of the right. And secular education from the get go would have truly helped. I actually had my schooling done in a catholic private school in Pakistan till I was 6. Then Army schools. I had no comprehension of belief systems, race and other man made perceptive bullshit until I went to Canada and became a good hate target for some Caucasian kids at school at the age of 12. But the west is so "tolerant" they said. Never had it happen in Pakistan.

Last but not least, Pakistan is not a democracy anymore than it is by name. It's completely hijacked by corrupt elites who give no toss about fair governance instead of being capitalist dogs and filling their own pockets. Less is given to the economy and hence more extremism as poverty rises. I've had a gun stuck on my head before in Lahore for my phone. People can get desperate. But in no way did I generalize everyone poor because of a bad incident.

And lmao, PPP, Zardari and Bilawal are probably the worst examples you can give to put anything back into the fray. So you're asking a theif, a man who lives abroad but wants to govern Pakistan and his corrupt party some merit, then you're not well informed. All the blame goes on the PPP, the then Army dictator Zia Ul Haq and the Al Saud family including the CIA for funding Islamization in the 1970s. Pakistan is at fault for thinking they could use the "Mujahideen" Army made to destroy the USSR (to be used in Kashmir) only to become "terrorists" now. And no, Pakistanis have nothing to prove to you. The 10% of the liberals along with some ruling elites are feeling just as frustrated as anyone else. While the majority of moderates don't want to be a part of this bullshit.
HellforLeather
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:02 PM)
HellforLeather's Avatar

Originally Posted by BlackBanditSho

RADICAL religion gives you a hell of a mental justification.

No, just religion. If you believe your actions are justified by a holy entity who exists beyond space, time and human comprehension, who created the universe and all that is within it, that justifies any horrific act that their holy book prescribe.

People are only considered "radical" when they actually follow the text in their holy books. Basically non-radicals are they people who decide to cherry pick the good bits and discard at least some of the crazy shit.
Last edited by HellforLeather; 04-21-2017 at 04:07 PM.
Izuna
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Septic360

Nice- anyone who follows religion is part of that bullshit fabric of society. Well done.

We all are, religious or not.

What's your point though?

Religion isn't required to be a "good" person. What it does tho, is try to define what a "good" person is and sets various rules (some seemingly pointless since there are so many different sets) that have nothing to do with being "good". That creates an order in which people and society, in general, can be a bit more predictable.

What I'm trying to say is, is that Religion is just a very, very big cult. It has its benefits in doing so, especially if everyone follows it.
SlimySnake
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:15 PM)
SlimySnake's Avatar

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Being born in Pakistan isn't enough for you to generalize people in an ever changing socio political situation that you have no idea about. Before, I thought you had some kind of party affiliated agenda but now I just see you're clueless. When was the last time you went to Pakistan? And which part of Pakistan are you from?

You're going to trust your post colonization overlords to give you a better version of history than the actual locals who went through the partition? I guess the Sikh, Mahajirs, Hindus, Bengalis, Balochi, Persian, Parsi, Pakhtuns, Hazara, Kashmiris, Christian and Muslim elders I've actually met in person must be lying out of their ass. And PTV is state owned. Why would I believe that? I've actually gone to Pakistan from 2011-2014 and studied whatever I could to understand my roots and discern my own idea while doing an M.Phil in Communications "by their standards" under a secular management.

And what bullshit? The fact that I presented videos to counter your lack of knowledge that you get from your parents or uncles? You're the one spewing nonsense since I saw your earlier posts. Most western Pakistanis living abroad have some kind of sense of superiority and look down on everyone else which coming back I totally felt.

You cannot reappeal a law with 90% of your populace being part of the indoctrinated looney bin. Even Musharraf didn't do this because he would be dead the next day even being an all powerful dictator. You want to know how Murderers are treated after being killed by the state? Look up Mumtaz Qadri's funeral on YouTube. He was the one who Murdered Salman Taseer, the then governer of Punjab. He's now hailed as a martyr and his son is now claimed to be some sort of religious beacon of hope.

If Jinnah was alive for at least 10 more years. We could have seen Pakistan in his vision. But let's agree that such a large Muslim populous turning out to be overwhelming against everyone else was already going to happen. This has happened everywhere around the world. You can see the same kind of dissent happening in western nations now with the full swing of the right. And secular education from the get go would have truly helped. I actually had my schooling done in a catholic private school in Pakistan till I was 6. Then Army schools. I had no comprehension of belief systems, race and other man made perceptive bullshit until I went to Canada and became a good hate target for some Caucasian kids at school at the age of 12. But the west is so "tolerant" they said. Never had it happen in Pakistan.

Last but not least, Pakistan is not a democracy anymore than it is by name. It's completely hijacked by corrupt elites who give no toss about fair governance instead of being capitalist dogs and filling their own pockets. Less is given to the economy and hence more extremism as poverty rises. I've had a gun stuck on my head before in Lahore for my phone. People can get desperate. But in no way did I generalize everyone poor because of a bad incident.

And lmao, PPP, Zardari and Bilawal are probably the worst examples you can give to put anything back into the fray. So you're asking a theif, a man who lives abroad but wants to govern Pakistan and his corrupt party some merit, then you're not well informed. All the blame goes on the PPP, the then Army dictator Zia Ul Haq and the Al Saud family including the CIA for funding Islamization in the 1970s. Pakistan is at fault for thinking they could use the "Mujahideen" Army made to destroy the USSR (to be used in Kashmir) only to become "terrorists" now. And no, Pakistanis have nothing to prove to you. The 10% of the liberals along with some ruling elites are feeling just as frustrated as anyone else. While the majority of moderates don't want to be a part of this bullshit.

you had so much to say and yet the line below is all i needed.

You cannot reappeal a law with 90% of your populace being part of the indoctrinated looney bin.

90% of the population, by your own words, believe in the State killing people for blasphemy. What a crazy fucking country.
Abilidebob
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:16 PM)

Originally Posted by Arkeband

Without religion, what would the justification for killing someone and dragging their corpse around be?

Here in Brazil a man was beaten to death by an angry mob because they wrongly thought he was a child kidnapper. It has nothing to do with religion, let's not kid ourselves. People can use whatever they want to do fucked up stuff.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:17 PM)

Originally Posted by sephi22

After that guy who was denouncing the blasphemy laws got killed by his own bodyguard, I don't see repeal of blasphemy laws getting traction anytime soon.


You conveniently ignored the rest of my post. Humans have believed in a higher power since we were cavemen, because we couldn't explain a lot of phenomenon occurring around us. We are smarter now, but if someone has faith, I respect them. But I don't respect organized religion.

There's a difference between believing that God has your back vs. believing everything in a book written by man, or believing what a self-appointed saint or sadhu tells you. It applies as much to the 'Jesus hates fags' crowd as well as 'Allah hates blashphemers' crowd. Perhaps this doesn't apply to you but it applies to the men who lynched this guy. Faith is good. Organized religion is just men subjugating other men through fear of a being that may or may not be real, and telling them what to do or think.

If you find that offensive, I don't know what to tell you. Sorry?

I respect your opinion and agree to many points. Islam was intended to be easy and give people free will and human rights. It wasn't until one day I was praying at a random mosque and someome came up to me and was stern about how I was doing my Salat with disrespect. I'm like "mind your own business... it's between me and Allah and this is how I've always done this"... I could feel his anger as he left. I realized at that point that uh oh... this shit is happening now?

You don't have to apologize. I have always observed that wherever there is poverty... ignorance and faith follows in an extreme way.
BadWolf
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abilidebob

Here in Brazil a man was beaten to death by an angry mob because they wrongly thought he was a child kidnapper. It has nothing to do with religion, let's not kid ourselves. People can use whatever they want to do fucked up stuff.

Is beating kidnappers to death a regular thing in Brazil and supported by law?
azyless
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:28 PM)
azyless's Avatar

Originally Posted by Abilidebob

Here in Brazil a man was beaten to death by an angry mob because they wrongly thought he was a child kidnapper. It has nothing to do with religion, let's not kid ourselves. People can use whatever they want to do fucked up stuff.

You can use that argument for pretty much every crime but I don't see people on here handwaving away racism/homophobia-related crimes because "hey that person would have probably found another reason to kill anyway".
That guy literally died because of blasphemy and somehow some people still put their fingers in their ears while they scream that religion has nothing to do with anything. Religion truly is untouchable.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:30 PM)

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Snip

Here you go. Have a field day today and start to finally think beyond your mindhive.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/11/21/l...f-religion-are

What a crazy fucking ass world.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 04:33 PM.
Izuna
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by BadWolf

Is beating kidnappers to death a regular thing in Brazil and supported by law?

I'm gunna say yes and admit I'm only being half-edgy
Spaced Harrier
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar


And of course I will defend it. I'm Muslim, I know my religion better than you.

No that isn't how that works.
You may have more direct experience with your local version, but you don't automatically have better knowledge of it.

Most people are poorly educated on it.

Most Catholics in Ireland don't think Transubstantiation happens, and that it is symbolic.
The "fact" that it is not symbolic but "real" is a cornerstone of the difference between Catholics and Protestants (supposedly)

I also know my country and its people better than you or anyone here in fact.

Again, No not necessarily, knowledge and experience are different things. Also You are less likely to have any perspective. Sometimes it takes outsiders to cut through the bullshit.
SlimySnake
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

Here you go. Have a field day today and start to finally think beyond your mindhive.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/11/21/l...f-religion-are

What a crazy fucking ass world.

90% of pakistan believe in killing a man for blasphemy and I am part of a hivemind?
Van Bur3n
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:42 PM)
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Backwards ass country with backwards ass beliefs.

To think people actually commit these atrocities in the name of this made up shit, and for so many centuries at that.

Humans are an incredibly dumb species. Especially so in Pakistan, apparently.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:43 PM)

Originally Posted by azyless

Somehow some people still put their fingers in their ears while they scream that religion has nothing to do with anything. Religion truly is untouchable.

Lol, mate you sound like the extremist opposition with words like "why should I care?" even when given some solid arguments. Religion doesn't teach you right or wrong exclusively. Your nature, nurture, society and other caveats also come into the fray.

Plus, haven't you heard? He was framed and blasphemy was the easiest way to get him murdered knowing how easily the weak minded could be manipulated. Pakistan is the most non-religious... religious state I've ever been in. Nothing about it is Islamic because of hypocrisy but everyone acts like they pray 5 times a day.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

90% of pakistan believe in killing a man for blasphemy and I am part of a hivemind?

Read the article or stop wasting your and my time. Hint: 90% of people in rural areas.

Originally Posted by Spaced Harrier

No that isn't how that works.

You may have more direct experience with your local version, but you don't automatically have better knowledge of it.

Again, No not necessarily, knowledge and experience are different things. Also You are less likely to have any perspective. Sometimes it takes outsiders to cut through the bullshit.

What. The. Fuck.

I guess my Bachelors in Communications and Minors in Anthropology and Political Science from University of Toronto and then a joint M.Phil Thesis between my Canadian and Pakistani professors on History, Media and Politics from both a western and local perspective on Pakistani Immigration don't count for shit.

All those years studing qualitative and quantitative theories with cutting bias amounted to nothing as well because of your own idea about "perspectives"

Holy shit. The assumptions are fantastic here. Now what kind of credentials do you have on an academic and actual experience front for Pakistan?

Originally Posted by BadWolf

Is beating kidnappers to death a regular thing in Brazil and supported by law?

Sharia is not law in Pakistan. Neither is it supported by many who have education. Basically, the minority. Pakistan has its own justice system that is unfortunately corrupt. Most deem the judiciary system ineffective and un-islamic.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 05:10 PM.
azyless
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

Lol, mate you sound like the extremist opposition with words like "why should I care?" even when given some solid arguments. Religion doesn't teach you right or wrong exclusively. Your nature, nurture, society and other caveats also come into the fray.

Plus, haven't you heard? He was framed and blasphemy was the easiest way to get him murdered knowing how easily the weak minded could be manipulated. Pakistan is the most non-religious... religious state I've ever been in. Nothing about it is Islamic because of hypocrisy but everyone acts like they pray 5 times a day.

If you're not willing to admit that having laws against apostasy and blasphemy has anything to do with religion I don't know what to tell you.
Simone Biles-levels of mental gymnastics.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 05:34 PM)

Originally Posted by azyless

If you're not willing to admit that having laws against apostasy and blasphemy has anything to do with religion I don't know what to tell you.
Simone Biles-levels of mental gymnastics.

Don't selectively read my posts. I never said it wasn't part of religion. But I also said that actions on such cases shouldn't fall upon the people in that time in that society where mob mentality and lynching is a social murderous event fueled by the topic or issue at hand.

See lynching of Black People by Whites.

Religion also gives another MORE FAVORABLE option from the Quran rather than Hadith; "mind your own business and let god deal with it." Again, there is NO verse in the Quran that speaks of Blasphemy.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 06:05 PM.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
(04-21-2017, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by azyless

It must take a certain amount of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that deaths related to blasphemy or apostasy laws have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Originally Posted by azyless

You can use that argument for pretty much every crime but I don't see people on here handwaving away racism/homophobia-related crimes because "hey that person would have probably found another reason to kill anyway".
That guy literally died because of blasphemy and somehow some people still put their fingers in their ears while they scream that religion has nothing to do with anything. Religion truly is untouchable.

Yuuuup

Originally Posted by nynt9

Re: context of phrases:

Here's the problem. These phrases are used to justify extremism, because they can easily be taken out of context. You can choose to take in a lot of context and soften the blow of those phrases, but extremists often don't. You are taking a charitable reading. Many extremists simply contextualize these phrases as "we are in a constant state of war against unbelievers" and then boom, everything is allowed.

Thing is, a lot of people who become radicalized don't do intense readings of the text and choose that path. They are preached to by others who use radical interpretations of phrases like those. Which was exactly my point. To claim there is NO basis for extremism in the text is purely false. There is some basis for it. You can take those words as-is to justify it. Context should matter, but not everyone is willing to use the context to soften phrases like this. Extremists prefer to take the phrases as-is.

When texts contain phrases like that, where you have to explain people the greater context to make them sound not super horrible, that is a problem. Not everyone has the same goodwill. As we can see in the actions taken by people in the story in the OP.

This is the problem with religion. Everyone can claim their own interpretation is the most valid. Since it is not based on facts, and is often derived from vague, contradictory texts, people can take it a long way.

Yes. Therein lies the problem. The fact that it's not based on facts, but faith (which is inherently about believing without evidence), is what makes it so toxic.

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Unless, you had something good to say with a thought provoking introduction statement instead of "clutching my pearls" it would have made sense to interject your opinion on a one to one discussion.

No, that's not how it works. By the way, you are tone policing again.

You're literally complaining about me asking to keep the level of the decorum in a discussion without profanities? Typical to hype it up as oppression.

Hype it up as.... what? I am doing no such thing. You're just making shit up again.

As far as the rest of your post goes. LOL. I'm not going to even bother with you.

Yeah? there's literally 4 paragraphs following that statement. You wanna try that again?

I had a good look at your post history... seriously, keep up with the anti-Islam agenda. And keep insulting me trying to get personal about "English" being my first language.

I said that because I find your posts to be incredibly incoherent, full of rambling nonsense about things I didn't do and didn't say, so I wanted to give you the benefit of doubt. If English is indeed your first language and you feel insulted, well, I apologize. I guess the incoherent drivel in your posts can't be explained by the language barrier. *shrugs*

And of course I will defend it. I'm Muslim

Why can't you acknowledge that there is a problem with the source of your religion, that would make such beliefs against blasphemy become widespread?

Feel free to step in without getting personal.

I didn't get personal earlier, but you did, by telling me to "mind my own business" and then telling me I "live in an alternate reality" and all sorts of other things. Stop being an hypocrite and actually address what is being said instead of whining about being offended.

Originally Posted by HellforLeather

No, just religion. If you believe your actions are justified by a holy entity who exists beyond space, time and human comprehension, who created the universe and all that is within it, that justifies any horrific act that their holy book prescribe.

People are only considered "radical" when they actually follow the text in their holy books. Basically non-radicals are they people who decide to cherry pick the good bits and discard at least some of the crazy shit.

Indeed.
Linkup
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by azyless

Last I checked there wasn't any pope equivalent in Islam and it certainly wasn't you so I'm not sure why anyone should follow your interpretation of a verse compared to someone else's.
If your book is so easily manipulated by extremists maybe that's an issue the religion should deal with.
And I'll blame shitty "cultures" all I want, and yeah religion plays a big part in that.

Yes, there is no pope because there is no reinterpretation. You could say that the prophet and his champions were like a pope, but their wasn't another prophet as he was the last. So there is really only their interpretation of the Quran and it's what forms the basis of the religion. If you change that basis then you change Islam and to claim the Quran is a book from the creator after changing its meaning then it would make the religion no different from all the others and take away what has drawn many people to it.

I have no control over people trying to reinterpret the book and it's verses. Of course effort is made to explain the interpretation, but people can't be forced to listen so you will have those who don't.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 06:35 PM)

Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

No, that's not how it works. By the way, you are tone policing again.

You must be fun at parties. I am not tone policing. I am asking you to be civil, which you're clearly not. Triggered much?

I am doing no such thing. You're just making shit up again.

Denial. And I rest my case. Don't talk to me if you can't have a decent conversation.

Yeah? there's literally 4 paragraphs following that statement. You wanna try that again?

No. Most of your opinion is non-factual and emotional.

I said that because I find your posts to be incredibly incoherent, full of rambling nonsense about things I didn't do and didn't say, so I wanted to give you the benefit of doubt. If English is indeed your first language and you feel insulted, well, I apologize. I guess the incoherent drivel in your posts can't be explained by the language barrier. *shrugs*

Apparently, most of the posters even in opposition can give me salient arguments. But you're the only one having contextual and coherency problems. And that passive aggressive drive by at the end after an apology is just hilarious. Don't get personal fam.

Why can't you acknowledge that there is a problem with the source of your religion, that would make such beliefs against blasphemy become widespread?

Are you a perfect human being to discern the imperfection of every human being that follows said religion? Please humor me about how much you know about Islam and people that follow it, living in different regions of the world with its own cultural and societal complexities and how everyone probably thinks in the same way. The problem isn't the source, but the interpretations of human beings.

Can you acknowledge that maybe you don't know everything and are just biased?

I didn't get personal earlier, but you did, by telling me to "mind my own business" and then telling me I "live in an alternate reality" and all sorts of other things. Stop being an hypocrite and actually address what is being said instead of whining about being offended.

Serious question. Did you find me bullying the other person or something? If so, why take such an aggressive tone. It was unnecessary. As for the rest, again more emotional drivel. You're more than welcome to step into a conversation as long as you're not coming in with jibes at me and assuming my reactions.

I'm not here to argue with you. You can PM me from here on if this is going to get personal.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 06:38 PM.
spindoctor
Member
(04-21-2017, 08:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by azyless

It must take a certain amount of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that deaths related to blasphemy or apostasy laws have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

It's crazy isn't it? The guy was murdered because he was accused of blasphemy. And then you have people going...

"Guys, guys, it wasn't a religious thing!"

Yep, sure. Maybe he was killed because of the weather...
msdstc
Incredibly Naive
(04-21-2017, 08:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by spindoctor

It's crazy isn't it? The guy was murdered because he was accused of blasphemy. And then you have people going...

"Guys, guys, it wasn't a religious thing!"

Yep, sure. Maybe he was killed because of the weather...

What's crazy is this continues to happen and yet I keep being told this is unacceptable behavior according to that religion. Which is it? I'm honestly asking, it seems this type of reaction to apostates, blasphemy, homosexuality, adultery, etc is common in this particular area.
keuja
Member
(04-22-2017, 05:44 AM)
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Problem is in those countries, how can one even start acknowledging that there might be a problem with the religion when just saying out loud will subject you to the death penalty or being lynched by an insane murderous mob (which could include your own family) for "blasphemy".
And the government also uses religion as a way to control the people.
cameron
Member
(04-24-2017, 02:19 AM)
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If it's of any interest, BBC has an article up on the investigation and public sentiment in Pakistan about the attack.

"Could a student's death change Pakistan's blasphemy laws?"

What has the investigation found?

Over 20 people have been arrested, including a number of university employees. Leading figures of local branches of student political parties have also been linked to the mob attack.

Police say they are also searching for a man identified as a local councillor for Imran Khan's PTI political party. He is seen in a video, as the mob celebrates the killing, saying anyone who reveals who shot Mashal Khan is a "traitor".

Mashal Khan's friend has told police the university administration were "deadly against Mashal Khan" for openly criticising the running of the university in a recent TV interview. One suspect has suggested certain members of staff incited students against Marshal Khan.

University officials say they did everything in their power to save him and they are co-operating fully with the police inquiry.

How have the public reacted?

Blasphemy is legally punishable by death in Pakistan. People have received the death penalty but so far the state has not executed anyone. A number of people accused of blasphemy have been murdered, however.

There is often strong support for harsh punishment of blasphemers. After Mashal Khan's murder it was reported that a cleric in his village refused to lead his funeral prayers and urged others not to attend them.

However, there has been widespread support for Mashal Khan amongst the wider Pakistani public. Many have posted pictures and quotes from Mashal Khan's social media pages in solidarity with him. A number of demonstrations calling for his killers to be punished have been held across the country.

More in link. But basically,

But there is less agreement on whether blasphemy laws should actually be changed. Much of the condemnation has revolved around the mob "taking the law into their own hands". Activist Jibran Nasir told the BBC "so far rage has been directed towards calling for tough punishment of the offenders - not reform".


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