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Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
(04-21-2017, 02:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tence

Somebody should start a thread about historical Jesus, because it is actually kind of interesting. It seems a rather controversial topic tbh. Some of the sources in this topic seem to be very influenced by who writes about it.
Like for instance in that Guardian article the writer says their is an abundance of written proof including Josephus, although some of his texts might be altered a bit.
The Wiki article on the other hand states out loud that the paragraphs on Jesus in Josephus' work were added centuries later and clearly false.

Did you read the full wikipedia article?

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to the biblical Jesus Christ in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18.

Scholarly opinion varies on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities, a passage that states that Jesus the Messiah was a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate, usually called the Testimonium Flavianum. The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian expansion/alteration. Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear, there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.

Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.

Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist also to be authentic and not a Christian interpolation

First one mentioned is believed to have been altered, but is also believed to have had an authentic nucleus.

Scholars almost overwhelmingly believe the other two passages that mention people that were close to Jesus are completely authentic.
Cindi Mayweather
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:22 PM)

Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

Can I show you a few files that say climate change is not real and vaccinations cause autism? That is the level of discussion you are having here.

Just because a few say he didn't exist, doesn't mean you should ignore the tons of papers that says he did.

This is why the science naturalists aren't as smart as they think they are, and in many ways are hypocritical. They purport they value "evidence" and "science" until it goes against their worldview. But mention climate change and all bets are off.

Hahahahaha
Tence
(04-21-2017, 02:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Trojita

Did you read the full wikipedia article?

I made a huge mistake! The link I read wasn't wikipedia but wiki.ironchariots.org.
The Albatross
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by MrS

By your own admission, it's not 100% clear that he did exist. Hence, stop mentioning religious figures.

There are more first hand, second hand, and third hand accounts of Jesus than any contemporary figure of his time, including Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Alexander the Great, and every other figure in world history. If you're going to argue that Jesus should be disqualified because you're not 100% convinced of his historical existence, then you'd have to apply the same criteria to every other of his contemporaries, and figures for several centuries after. Further, when you begin to come up with arbitrary reasons for disqualifying historical figures, you end up discovering some unsettling facts about history, like how virtually everything we generally accept about Julius Caesar was shaped by Shakespeare over 1000 years later, or that the actual first or second hand accounts of Caesar are limited to a tiny handful of orators whose words were transcribed by anonymous people lost to history.

Consider also that Jesus, from a historical perspective, was a political leader who led a movement in the middle East. He doesn't have to be religious. Historians are in 100% agreement that Jesus -- a leader of Jews from roughly 2000 years ago -- existed. Any person who argues otherwise isn't motivated by something other than historical objectivity.
Last edited by The Albatross; 04-21-2017 at 02:29 PM.
Fred-87
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by 4Tran

If we restrict ourselves to historical figures that we know existed, then Mohammed is a pretty good choice. Genghis Khan is also pretty well known.


Everyone who knows about Julius Caesar would know about Alexander the Great as well. And there will be people in Central Asia who would know about Alexander without ever hearing about Julius Caesar.

You would be suprised to know how many people dont know who Mohammed is. Everyone in my country know who Jesus is. Not all know who Mohammed is.
Majine
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:28 PM)
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Mao? He's an icon in the most populated country on earth.
Jesus is silly.

The historical Jesus and the reglious figure are two completely different characters.
Apzu
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon

Tsar literally translates to Caesar lol.

But yeah it is definitely Jesus. If not a religious figure then Ghengis before Caesar.

I only found out about that the other day, also that the same applies to Kaiser. I had never noticed it before, though.
ccbfan
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:30 PM)

Originally Posted by LeadenStride

I think philosophy is more likely to be Aristotle or even Plato.

LOL Confucius >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any of them.
ClosingADoor
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by PdotMichael

Jesus is silly.

The historical Jesus and the reglious figure are two completely different characters.

This goes for every character in history to some extend.
G-Unit
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by PdotMichael

Jesus is silly.

The historical Jesus and the reglious figure are two completely different characters.

No they are not. What's wrong with people? This kind of shat got Trump elected. Jeez.
Jazzy Geoff
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:36 PM)
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Gary Linekar
MrS
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by G-Unit

No they are not. What's wrong with people? This kind of shat got Trump elected. Jeez.

Read The Albatross' post above. He said the same thing, albeit more eloquently, and he has a point.
Apzu
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Fred-87

You would be suprised to know how many people dont know who Mohammed is. Everyone in my country know who Jesus is. Not all know who Mohammed is.

But that's the thing, most of us here live in western countries, we learn about jesus due to our culture. A lot of people won't learn much about other religions or their important figures like Mohammed, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world is living under the same culture as we are. Maybe someone from thailand could say that you'd be surprised that many people don't know who Jesus is but they do know who Bhumibol (their former king) is.
Izuna
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Apzu

But that's the thing, most of us here live in western countries, we learn about jesus due to our culture. A lot of people won't learn much about other religions or their important figures like Mohammed, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world is leaving under the same culture as we are. Maybe someone from thailand could say that you'd be surprised that many people don't know who Jesus is but they do know who Bhumibol (their former king) is.

I imagine that Jesus is far more known than Mohammed.

I think the fact that Islam exists is more famous than Mohammed.

At least, that's my experience of talking to Japanese people.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:43 PM)

Originally Posted by Mimosa97

Religious figure : Jesus
Historical figure : Hitler
Entertainer : Michael Jackson
Sportstar : Mohamed Ali
Scientist : Einstein

Finally somebody mentions Einstein, everybody has him as a reference for genius.
BasilZero
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makonero

Jesus Christ.

This
Cindi Mayweather
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:46 PM)

Originally Posted by Apzu

But that's the thing, most of us here live in western countries, we learn about jesus due to our culture. A lot of people won't learn much about other religions or their important figures like Mohammed, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world is living under the same culture as we are. Maybe someone from thailand could say that you'd be surprised that many people don't know who Jesus is but they do know who Bhumibol (their former king) is.

Christianity is surging in Asia and Africa. Your statement doesn't stand to actual scrutiny.

Here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-15-years.html

Here:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...ist-explains-6

Never mind that Christianity is exploding in the African continent, and the ones who aren't Christian are usually Muslim's, who believe Jesus to be a prophet.

Your hypothesis does not stand to scrutiny. It even seems really ignorant of current events worldwide.
GrizzleBoy
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:46 PM)
When all of civilization agrees to count the very passage of time starting on your birthday, because you were born, I'd say you're pretty famous.

Therefore, Jesus.
dan2026
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:47 PM)
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I would say Hitler is far more well known than Jesus these days.

Pretty much every school kid gets taught about WW2 to some extent.
They may not be religious or learn about Jesus though.
Lord of Castamere
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:48 PM)
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Jesus. I guess. I could see people not knowing who Caesar is, or even Hitler. Buddha and Mohammad would be in the top 5, for sure.

It just all depends on how you measure it. Khan and Caesar have been around longer, but right now I guarantee there are many people in the world who don't know their name.
orava
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedBullEnergy

Steve Jobs

Most teens have no clue who this is.
autumnleaf
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by dan2026

I would say Hitler is far more well known than Jesus these days.

Pretty much every school kid gets taught about WW2 to some extent.
They may not be religious or learn about Jesus though.

You don't need to be religious or learn about religion to know who Jesus is. The symbol of a man on a cross is almost universally recognised.

People will know of Jesus long after all the celebrities, politicians, sports stars and other people mentioned in this thread.
offtopic
He measures in centimeters
(04-21-2017, 02:52 PM)
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Are we measuring by how many people know about an individual?

If so, since human population has grown exponentially in the past 150 years (from less than 1 billion to 7.5 billion) I think it would have to be someone current and someone who is known throughout all parts of the world (facilitated by the internet). Obama, Trump, Xi, Beyonce, Cruise would be names that come to mind.
jmizzal
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makonero

Jesus Christ.

I saw on a documentary that their are more books about Ali then Christ
Adam_Vania
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(04-21-2017, 02:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Elfotografoalocado

Finally somebody mentions Einstein, everybody has him as a reference for genius.

he's a 20th century guy, just like most of these answers. they are very 20th century-centric and very western-centric.

there's a good argument for Jesus. the Bible being the first mass-published work, Christianity being the cultural arm of the Roman Empire, etc. however, there were thousands of years of culture before 0AD and again it centers "human history" around classical, boring Europe, ignoring the entire rest of the world.

we need to take into account differences in population and technology and geography and literacy, etc. a million different factors. is somebody really famous if it is from constant media over-exposure? the internet can bestow fame on someone instantaneously, all over the world. perhaps there were famous people thousands of years ago whose legends loomed large without the help of mass media. imo this is a more potent form of fame.
kswiston
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cindi Mayweather

Christianity is surging in Asia and Africa. Your statement doesn't stand to actual scrutiny.

Here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-15-years.html

Here:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...ist-explains-6

Never mind that Christianity is exploding in the African continent, and the ones who aren't Christian are usually Muslim's, who believe Jesus to be a prophet.

Your hypothesis does not stand to scrutiny. It even seems really ignorant of current events worldwide.

There's also something like 90 million Christians in China and India. They are more common in those countries than Jewish and Muslim people are in most western countries, and both religions are generally well known in broad strokes here, even if just by stereotypes that come with being in a sizable minority. Nevermind the ubiquity of American music and movies, and the influence both have had on domestic entertainment in other countries.
Sephzilla
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:56 PM)
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The answer is either Jesus or Hitler (for vastly different reasons, obviously)
Cindi Mayweather
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:57 PM)

Originally Posted by kswiston

There's also something like 90 million Christians in China and India. They are more common in those countries than Jewish and Muslim people are in most western countries, and both religions are generally well known in broad strokes here, even if just by stereotypes that come with being in a sizable minority. Nevermind the ubiquity of American music and movies, and the influence both have had on domestic entertainment in other countries.

The first link I posted poises China to be the largest Christian nation - some 200 million Christian's - by 2030.

But let's talk about how "Jesus is a western biased answer" (lol)
Ovid
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:59 PM)

Originally Posted by Hellraizer



Yes, 5 do not use it at all. And for Islamic countries the point of knowing Jesus still stands with or without counting from AD.

The rest of us use Gregorian as "civil calendar" or at least alongside the "local" one.

I'm surprised Ethiopia hasn't adopted the Georgian calendar.
Inferno313
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:02 PM)
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smh. Y'all aren't gonna lose your internet athiest cred just by acknowledging that Jesus probably existed. The vast majority of scholars believe him to have been a real man. How accurately the Bible actually depicted Jesus, is another topic. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a historian who believes that the man didn't even exist.
Cmerrill
You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
(04-21-2017, 03:08 PM)
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Actual people - Hitler or Ceaser.

Fictional - Santa or Jesus.

Edit: Einstein is a good one too.
capitalCORN
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:10 PM)
If anyone said Buddha already, I agree with them. I imagine he's known to the vast majority of Confusians and Hindus, aka, the largest slice of human population.
Jindrax
Banned
(04-21-2017, 03:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Mimosa97

Religious figure : Jesus
Historical figure : Hitler
Entertainer : Michael Jackson
Sportstar : Mohamed Ali
Scientist : Einstein

Jordan has any sports star beat by a landslide
offtopic
He measures in centimeters
(04-21-2017, 03:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jindrax

Jordan has any sports star beat by a landslide

I doubt it. Messi? Maradona? Pele?

I'd probably add Messi to my list of obama/trump/xi/beyonce/cruise. Over 2 billion people were born between 1985 and 2010 alone...who do 'all' these people know? I'm guessing it isn't Jesus or Mohamed. I'm not sure any historical figure figure can compete at all with current famous people in terms of number of people that know about them (not referencing Jordan here...just a general statement).
Roufianos
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(04-21-2017, 03:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon

Tsar literally translates to Caesar lol.

But yeah it is definitely Jesus. If not a religious figure then Ghengis before Caesar.

Haha that's true. Still, it's just a title though. The Russians didn't deny their Slavic origins and start erecting statues to Caesar and claiming they were Romans and his descendants as has happened in a small Balkan state.

Also Alexander is well known in the Middle East and India unlike Caesar.
Adam_Vania
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(04-21-2017, 03:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cindi Mayweather

The first link I posted poises China to be the largest Christian nation - some 200 million Christian's - by 2030.

But let's talk about how "Jesus is a western biased answer" (lol)

let's have an debate about something that may happen in 2030
autumnleaf
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(04-21-2017, 03:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by offtopic

I doubt it. Messi? Maradona? Pele?

I'd probably add Messi to my list of obama/trump/xi/beyonce/cruise. Over 2 billion people were born between 1985 and 2010 alone...who do 'all' these people know? I'm guessing it isn't Jesus or Mohamed. I'm not sure any historical figure figure can compete at all with current famous people in terms of number of people that know about them (not referencing Jordan here...just a general statement).

How many people do you think know who Obama and Beyonce are and DON'T know who Jesus is? In what places are people exposed to someone like Beyonce and not Jesus?

I mean Beyonce has sang songs about Jesus... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MZxf-lQD-o
Last edited by autumnleaf; 04-21-2017 at 03:35 PM.
Inferno313
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(04-21-2017, 03:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by offtopic

I doubt it. Messi? Maradona? Pele?

I'd probably add Messi to my list of obama/trump/xi/beyonce/cruise. Over 2 billion people were born between 1985 and 2010 alone...who do 'all' these people know? I'm guessing it isn't Jesus or Mohamed. I'm not sure any historical figure figure can compete at all with current famous people in terms of number of people that know about them (not referencing Jordan here...just a general statement).

Lots of people aren't into sports. I didn't know who Messi was until college, as shameful as that might not be. I never followed any sports, especially not soccer, growing up. It was only when I had a college roommate who was really into soccer did I learn about these dudes.
jmizzal
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(04-21-2017, 03:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by massoluk

Uhh actually how about Buddha, known by majority of East and Southeast Asia, including 1st and 2nd most populous countries

The prob is everywhere else in the world a lot of people dont know who he is, where as Jesus is known in Asia as well as everywhere else in the world
Cindi Mayweather
Banned
(04-21-2017, 03:32 PM)

Originally Posted by Adam_Vania

let's have an debate about something that may happen in 2030

China's Christian population is currently 90 or so million. Out of a country of 1 billion, this is a significant number already. The point is that most people in Asia know who Jesus is. Your point is silly as much as it is embarassing.
Apzu
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(04-21-2017, 03:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Izuna

I imagine that Jesus is far more known than Mohammed.

I think the fact that Islam exists is more famous than Mohammed.

At least, that's my experience of talking to Japanese people.

That's quite an interesting anecdote, I can somewhat understand Jesus being more famous than Mohammed in Japan. Also the idea that Islam may be more famous than Mohammed himself in countries with a small amount of muslims.

Originally Posted by Cindi Mayweather

Christianity is surging in Asia and Africa. Your statement doesn't stand to actual scrutiny.

Here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-15-years.html

Here:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...ist-explains-6

Never mind that Christianity is exploding in the African continent, and the ones who aren't Christian are usually Muslim's, who believe Jesus to be a prophet.

Your hypothesis does not stand to scrutiny. It even seems really ignorant of current events worldwide.

I won't deny I may be ignorant of worldwide events, that's part of my point in this thread all along, that is we (or maybe just me) don't know enough of other parts of the world to be so sure which person is the most famous. I did know there were millions of christians in China, but in a population of more than 1 billion people they were probably amounting to less than 5% of all chinese. The telegraph article though is quite interesting, as it seems that by 2030 they might get to something like 250 million, which i think would then be around 15% of the chinese by then.
capitalCORN
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:32 PM)

Originally Posted by jmizzal

The prob is everywhere else in the world a lot of people dont know who he is, where as Jesus is known in Asia as well as everywhere else in the world

Originally Posted by Cindi Mayweather

China's Christian population is currently 90 or so million. Out of a country of 1 billion, this is a significant number already. The point is that most people in Asia know who Jesus is. Your point is silly as much as it is embarassing.


Wanna ask any bumpkin from Guangzhou about Jesus? Maybe do a street survey in Pune?
Stabby McSter
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by offtopic

I doubt it. Messi? Maradona? Pele?

I'd probably add Messi to my list of obama/trump/xi/beyonce/cruise. Over 2 billion people were born between 1985 and 2010 alone...who do 'all' these people know? I'm guessing it isn't Jesus or Mohamed. I'm not sure any historical figure figure can compete at all with current famous people in terms of number of people that know about them (not referencing Jordan here...just a general statement).

you underestimate the power of the jordan crying face

and i guess he does have a pretty strong brand, idk
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
(04-21-2017, 03:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Airola

Do you require as much contemporary evidence of other ancient historical figures as you require of Jesus? If you do, it might be so that you should stop believing in the existence of several of them too.


The next thing I'm about to say doesn't really relate to what you wrote as it's about the later writings:
I don't understand why some don't want to accept the references for Jesus in the Bible as any sort of evidence towards his existence. People often want to see evidence outside of the Bible. But the thing is that those texts weren't always part of the Bible. So if we could go back in time when the letters and all were unrelated to each other, completely separate things written by different people, would people still say they don't count?
I mean, denying their reliability just because they are in the Bible is basically the same as denying any other collection of writings about some certain person just because they were at some point collected and put together.



So..
For Jesus to be completely fictional person there seems to be awfully lot of mentions about him as a real person. I'd say there are more references about him than some other historical figures whose existence we don't generally doubt.



And by the way, some of the contents of Paul's letters can be traced to comment on situations that happened very close to Jesus' death. So there is contextual connection. It's not a historical accounting of things like the gospels but it's someone writing to letter to someone else and saying something like "hey remember the time when this and that happened, when we were here and there" and those references can be traced back to very close of Jesus' death. So unless there was some elaborate plan to write about something that didn't really happen to just fool people they are casually writing about a person who didn't really exist then there are too many things connected to Jesus' existence to not believe he existed. And if you go to the route of it being this big plan to deceive people, well, all I say is I understand conspiracy theories are interesting things to delve into and good luck to you in your endeavors :D

The bible proves the existence of Jesus the same way Star Wars proves Darth Vader is real. In other words, it's not evidence.
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Member
(04-21-2017, 03:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by ForsakenLotus

I'm not a historical scholar, but it seems like most aspects of Jesus' life is in doubt other than a few basic things. This is putting aside the miraculous events.

So while historical Jesus most likely existed, his depiction is almost that of a fictions character. I suppose you could say the same thing about any religious or supernatural figure wherein the details are fuzzy but what is commonly represented are the potentially fabricated moments, miracles, etc. And I say potentially not to specifically doubt these things but to say that there is a separation between known fact and faith based belief - with some distant historical figures it's hard enough to nail down the facts, with important religioua figures it's exponentially more difficult.

Jesus is like all great American presidents of yore. Mostly fictional and fully deified
Tyaren
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(04-21-2017, 03:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by hobblygobbly

Religion: Jesus
Politics: Adolf Hitler
Science: Einstein
Sport: Pelé or Cristiano Ronaldo... I'm not sure which one, but definitely someone from football (soccer), it is by far the most played and followed sport globally for generations.
Music: Bach (or Beethoven/Mozart, tough call)
Literature: Shakespeare
Philosophy: Karl Marx

Fun fact: Karl Marx was born in my hometown (Trier, Germany) and China now officially gifted my town a huge 6 metre tall Karl Marx statue to honor his upcoming 200th birthday. It was an a bit controversial present, but the statue will now be erected.
Chinese flock here in tens of thousands each year to see his birthplace. He defiinitely is well kown around the world,
Last edited by Tyaren; 04-21-2017 at 03:45 PM.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
(04-21-2017, 03:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by bobbytkc

Is there actually any evidence that the jesus in the bible is a real person though?

Not really, but it doesn't stop people from claiming there's "tons of evidence" (there isn't). Mohammed has far more actual evidence to support his existence.
PnCIa
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:02 PM)

Originally Posted by Chmpocalypse

Not really, but it doesn't stop people from claiming there's "tons of evidence" (there isn't). Mohammed has far more actual evidence to support his existence.

I would put it this way: There may very well have been a dude, even by the same name, who was acting in ways similar to the descriptions in the bible. Meaning, he was kind of a revolutionary? A troublemaker for his time maybe.

We have to seperate the possible real person of "Jesus" from 2000 years ago and the fictional son of god described in the bible though.
Fritz
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(04-21-2017, 04:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by hobblygobbly

Religion: Jesus
Politics: Adolf Hitler
Science: Einstein
Sport: Pelé or Cristiano Ronaldo... I'm not sure which one, but definitely someone from football (soccer), it is by far the most played and followed sport globally for generations.
Music: Bach (or Beethoven/Mozart, tough call)
Literature: Shakespeare
Philosophy: Karl Marx

Cool, 6 out of the 10 most famous persons spoke German.

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