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Escape Goat
(03-11-2017, 01:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

What.

What!
Macka
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(03-11-2017, 02:00 PM)
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Hush is probably my favourite episode. The Zeppo is up there too.
Media
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(03-11-2017, 04:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Prototype Viktor

.

if people didn't like Spike maybe the Emma/Hook wouldn't have been a thing in Once

Hey.

Prototype Viktor
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(03-11-2017, 05:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by BKatastrophe

Not really. Hook immediately plays the "repentant noble" as soon as he gets the hots for Emma. Also he and Emma have atrocious chemistry. Atrocious.

It's not nearly as fucked up and complicated as Spike and Buffy. In fact most of the bullshit in their relationship is on Emma.

only b/c the show hates the women on it. see them bring Robin back and forgetting people


also Fred was the better version of Season 1 Willow
anaron
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(03-11-2017, 08:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by dead souls

It's not even the best Angel season. That would be season four.

Yesssss


It makes me laugh when S5 is praised when it's lead female of four years (and seven across Buffy) is killed off and no one reacts to it. That's just disrespectful, trash writing.

And speaking of female leads, Fred was a boring Mary Sue and Illyria was the best thing to ever happen to her.
pretty done
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(03-11-2017, 08:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by anaron

Yesssss


It makes me laugh when S5 is praised when it's lead female of four years (and seven across Buffy) is killed off and no one reacts to it. That's just disrespectful, trash writing.

And speaking of female leads, Fred was a boring Mary Sue and Illyria was the best thing to ever happen to her.

Do you know what Mary Sue means

Rey from the shitty new Star Wars is a Mary Sue, Fred is just a nerd.
anaron
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(03-11-2017, 08:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by pretty done

Do you know what Mary Sue means

Rey from the shitty new Star Wars is a Mary Sue, Fred is just a nerd.

Fred is adorable but serves pretty much zero purpose as a member of Angel Investigations beyond her crazy stage. Everyone in the show is practically in love with her halfway through S3 and it's heightened grossly with Season five and she becomes this moral compass for everyone that's incredibly disingenuous. and the show just takes it to a whole new level with the gross "A Hole in the World" and the fallout from that.

Meanwhile Cordelia, founding member, vision girl and the heart of the show is killed off and the show doesn't have anyone react to it.

TRASH
Last edited by anaron; 03-11-2017 at 08:17 PM.
Eidan
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(03-11-2017, 08:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by pretty done

Do you know what Mary Sue means

Rey from the shitty new Star Wars is a Mary Sue, Fred is just a nerd.

Rey as a Mary Sue...I thought we collectively outgrew this idiotic argument.
bitbydeath
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(03-11-2017, 08:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by anaron

Meanwhile Cordelia, founding member, vision girl and the heart of the show is killed off and the show doesn't have anyone react to it.

TRASH

Cordy betrayed everyone and got pregnant to Angels son, by that stage everyone was ready for her to die.
ascii42
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(03-11-2017, 08:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by bitbydeath

Cordy betrayed everyone and got pregnant to Angels son, by that stage everyone was ready for her to die.

While true, wasn't she a victim of demonic possession or something? Didn't they do something to her so she could keep getting the visions without them killing her.
#sorrynotsorry
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(03-11-2017, 08:50 PM)
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All the seasons run together for me so I'm not sure on that front.

My favorite episode is Something Blue. I thought it was the most hilarious.

My favorite character is either Willow, Spike or Cordelia. Probably Willow.
Slaythe
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(03-11-2017, 09:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by anaron

Yesssss


It makes me laugh when S5 is praised when it's lead female of four years (and seven across Buffy) is killed off and no one reacts to it. That's just disrespectful, trash writing.

And speaking of female leads, Fred was a boring Mary Sue and Illyria was the best thing to ever happen to her.

How is it possible to be so horribly wrong in one post ?
Sheroking
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(03-11-2017, 09:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by pretty done

Do you know what Mary Sue means

Rey from the shitty new Star Wars is a Mary Sue, Fred is just a nerd.

Welp. It took you one more sentence to prove YOU don't know what a Mary Sue is, so I guess he could hardly be blamed.

Originally Posted by bitbydeath

Cordy betrayed everyone and got pregnant to Angels son, by that stage everyone was ready for her to die.

Cordelia did none of that. Jasmine was possessing her for the entirety of Season 4.

The last we saw of Cordelia Chase on Angel was the Season 3 finale, and then her brief return in Season 5 for the 100th episode.
Stallion Dan
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(03-11-2017, 09:52 PM)
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Everything after S3 is bad, and even 1-3 has a lot of awful.
anaron
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(03-11-2017, 09:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by bitbydeath

Cordy betrayed everyone and got pregnant to Angels son, by that stage everyone was ready for her to die.

Uh no? She was body jacked by a mass human eating demon.

And barring awful taste, how the hell can you be fan of Angel and want Cordelia gone?

Originally Posted by Slaythe

How is it possible to be so horribly wrong in one post ?

The truth hurts, I know.

Back to Buffy and speaking of Spike before they ruined him, Fool for Love and Intervention remain the best cases for that romance. If they had just followed through on how well it was initially executed. :(
Last edited by anaron; 03-11-2017 at 09:59 PM.
Stallion Dan
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(03-11-2017, 10:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Eidan

Rey as a Mary Sue...I thought we collectively outgrew this idiotic argument.

Nah, she perfect example of it. Knows how to do everything with no explanation (episode VIII putting in an explanation does not change episode VII as it is now, nor do explanations void her being so) and even her faults lead to her getting even better. Textbook.
Last edited by Stallion Dan; 03-11-2017 at 10:08 PM.
pretty done
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(03-11-2017, 10:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by anaron

Fred is adorable but serves pretty much zero purpose as a member of Angel Investigations beyond her crazy stage. Everyone in the show is practically in love with her halfway through S3 and it's heightened grossly with Season five and she becomes this moral compass for everyone that's incredibly disingenuous. and the show just takes it to a whole new level with the gross "A Hole in the World" and the fallout from that.

Meanwhile Cordelia, founding member, vision girl and the heart of the show is killed off and the show doesn't have anyone react to it.

TRASH

I thought Cordy was phased out because she was busy with filming other stuff or she was pregnant or something?

I agree her character was handled poorly from S4 on but it doesn't really make S5 any less great for me. Angel + Spike is the best duo in the universe and Gunn/Wesley/Fred/Illyria were all great in S5 imo. My biggest beef is with how they handled the ending, and less about how they handled Cordy.
Last edited by pretty done; 03-11-2017 at 10:04 PM.
Sheroking
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(03-11-2017, 10:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by anaron


And barring awful taste, how the hell can you be fan of Angel and want Cordelia gone?

Maybe you weren't around at the time, but pretty much everyone hated Cordy by the end of season 3.

They took a funny, likable character with lots of personality and turned her into a sanctimonious moralizer and dullard love interest for Angel. The whole bit about her getting possessed away at the end of Season 3 came as a change of plans, because there were a lot of people who did not want to see Cordelia and Angel as a couple.

When Charisma Carpenter pissed off Joss and THEN came to set pregnant, forcing them to re-write their plans for the year, she got written off. Spike in, Cordy out was perhaps the biggest cast upgrade the show ever had.
Eidan
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(03-11-2017, 10:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

Nah, she perfect example of it. Knows how to do everything with no explanation (episode VIII putting in an explanation does not change episode VIII as it is now, nor do explanations void her being so) and even her faults lead to her getting even better. Textbook.

Outside of force abilities, everything about Rey's skills are explained and make perfect sense. As for force abilities, it's the force. I need as much explanation for her ability to use it as I needed when Luke blew up the Death Star.
Sheroking
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(03-11-2017, 10:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Eidan

Outside of force abilities, everything about Rey's skills are explained and make perfect sense. As for force abilities, it's the force. I need as much explanation for her ability to use it as I needed when Luke blew up the Death Star.

The term Mary Sue has nothing to do with prodigious power or intelligence, anyway.

The internet has morphed a criticism of Star Trek fan-fiction authors writing themselves into stories as perfect snowflakes who everyone loves and turned into it "this character is too talented/nice for my liking".

There are basically no Mary Sue's in modern fiction at all.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(03-11-2017, 10:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by pretty done

Do you know what Mary Sue means

Rey from the shitty new Star Wars is a Mary Sue, Fred is just a nerd.

Embarrassing and sexist.

The term "Mary Sue" is nonsense on every level.
Stallion Dan
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(03-11-2017, 10:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Eidan

Outside of force abilities, everything about Rey's skills are explained and make perfect sense. As for force abilities, it's the force. I need as much explanation for her ability to use it as I needed when Luke blew up the Death Star.

Mary Sue's who attempt a bit of explanation are often top of their class, the first student to do whatever at the school and they hold the record for the thing. This being explained and put as a reason for doing things or not doesn't change anything.

She has no flaws and even her flawed moments are just set up for being even better. Luke screwed up multiple times, so did Anakin.
Eidan
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(03-11-2017, 10:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

Mary Sue's who attempt a bit of explanation are often top of their class, the first student to do whatever at the school and they hold the record for the thing. This being explained and put as a reason for doing things or not doesn't change anything.

She has no flaws and even her flawed moments are just set up for being even better. Luke screwed up multiple times, so did Anakin.

Top of her class? First student to do whatever? What are you even talking about? I swear the fact that Rey could pilot a fucking spaceship seems like it broke people.
Stallion Dan
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(03-11-2017, 10:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sheroking

The term Mary Sue has nothing to do with prodigious power or intelligence, anyway.

The internet has morphed a criticism of Star Trek fan-fiction authors writing themselves into stories as perfect snowflakes who everyone loves and turned into it "this character is too talented/nice for my liking".

There are basically no Mary Sue's in modern fiction at all.

Internet hasn't done anything of the sort. Mary Sue turned from 'perfect self insert' to general 'Perfect character' decades ago.
ascii42
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(03-11-2017, 10:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

Mary Sue's who attempt a bit of explanation are often top of their class, the first student to do whatever at the school and they hold the record for the thing. This being explained and put as a reason for doing things or not doesn't change anything.

She has no flaws and even her flawed moments are just set up for being even better. Luke screwed up multiple times, so did Anakin.

Yeah, but Luke's an obvious self-insert, given he takes his name from the author.
Sheroking
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(03-11-2017, 10:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

Internet hasn't done anything of the sort. Mary Sue turned from 'perfect self insert' to general 'Perfect character' decades ago.

It doesn't really matter who or when, only that the original point of the critique has long since died and been replaced with a hot-take criticism for internet message-board posters to use, often at the expense of any real analysis or context.
Last edited by Sheroking; 03-11-2017 at 10:31 PM.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(03-11-2017, 10:31 PM)
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Mary Sue means absolutely nothing. It's a generic sexist term that is used when men see a female character who is "perfect."

Yet those men haven't said shit for the decades and decades of male characters who fit that exact same mold. It's seeing a female in that position that activates something in their brains.

It's nonsense and using the term in a thread about an iconic feminist character is disheartening. Let's just drop the "Mary Sue" conversation all together, please.
ascii42
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(03-11-2017, 10:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

Mary Sue means absolutely nothing. It's a generic sexist term that is used when men see a female character who is "perfect."

Yet those men haven't said shit for the decades and decades of male characters who fit that exact same mold. It's seeing a female in that position that activates something in their brains.

It's nonsense and using the term in a thread about an iconic feminist character is disheartening. Let's just drop the "Mary Sue" conversation all together, please.

There is a male version of Mary Sue, Gary Stu. Well, TVTropes has Marty Stu for it. But yeah, Mary Sue discussions tend to be pretty pointless and aggravating.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(03-11-2017, 10:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by ascii42

There is a male version of Mary Sue, Gary Stu. Well, TVTropes has Marty Stu for it.

Right. And no one ever uses the term. Like, ever. That's kind of my point. The majority of the time when the "critique" comes up, it's about a female character.
Last edited by ZeoVGM; 03-11-2017 at 10:39 PM.
Bold One
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(03-11-2017, 10:37 PM)
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Tthanks for killing the thread, lads and laddettes....

fucking hell.

Hopefully we'll get back to Buffy/Angel sometime soon.
Stallion Dan
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(03-11-2017, 10:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

Mary Sue means absolutely nothing. It's a generic sexist term that is used when men see a female character who is "perfect."

This is not true and there has for an almost equal amount of time been a male version of it, Marty Sue.
Sheroking
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(03-11-2017, 10:38 PM)
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EDIT: Yeah, screw it. Not gonna continue this argument. Back to Buffy.

ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(03-11-2017, 10:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

This is not true and there has for an almost equal amount of time been a male version of it, Marty Sue.

Of course there has.





Stallion Dan
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(03-11-2017, 10:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

Right. And no one ever uses the term. Like, ever. That's kind of my point. The majority of the time when the "critique" comes up, it's about a female character.

It's because Marty Stu got run into the ground with 80's action stars. Are so many of them they get referred to as all sorts of things now. Action men, action stars, action heroes etc etc.

Pretty much all of them are a Marty Stu.

Originally Posted by ZeoVGM


"Action star."

That's quite the harsh term. Very insulting. Cuts deep.

The definition of perfect man and perfect woman are different for the trope, since each have different expectations. Read up here for an explanation.

Should also point out fanfiction, at least in the days of TOS Trek was mostly wrote by women, hence there being more Mary Sue's to spread that term over Marty.
Last edited by Stallion Dan; 03-11-2017 at 11:04 PM.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(03-11-2017, 10:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

It's because Marty Stu got run into the ground with 80's action stars.

That isn't a thing that happened.

Are so many of them they get referred to as all sorts of things now. Action men, action stars, action heroes etc etc.

"Action star."

That's quite the harsh term. Very insulting. Cuts deep.
Media
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(03-11-2017, 10:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by anaron

Uh no? She was body jacked by a mass human eating demon.

And barring awful taste, how the hell can you be fan of Angel and want Cordelia gone?


The truth hurts, I know.

Back to Buffy and speaking of Spike before they ruined him, Fool for Love and Intervention remain the best cases for that romance. If they had just followed through on how well it was initially executed. :(


At least you are right on Fool for Love and Intervention.





But he was also amazing in Once More With Feeling, and the Gift




It's a fight between him, Giles, and Wesley being the greatest actors on the show.
Last edited by Media; 03-11-2017 at 11:11 PM.
Shaanyboi
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(03-11-2017, 10:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

Everything after S3 is bad, and even 1-3 has a lot of awful.

Nah...
LionPride
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(03-11-2017, 10:57 PM)
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Not a big Buffy fan, first it was because it seemed like it never had a good plotline, the acting by most of the characters was not as good as Angel, even in a vaccuum, and there were like no black people ever.

I'm not a huge Whedon guy though period.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(03-11-2017, 11:05 PM)
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Back on topic, I'm a big Angel + Cordy guy, personally. It shocks me to this day that I'm saying that but everything about their relationship in season 3 made me happy.
Media
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(03-11-2017, 11:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

Back on topic, I'm a big Angel + Cordy guy, personally. It shocks me to this day that I'm saying that but everything about their relationship in season 3 made me happy.

Me too. Everyone gives Charisma so much shit, but as far as I recall, and I was HEAVY into fandom at the time, the pregnancy was a surprise, so they had to do some rewrites, and then Charisma got SUPER FUCKING SICK and had to be on bed rest half the pregnancy, hence all the scenes of Cordy in the bed or sitting and hardly any of her on her feet, so even more rewrites. Hell, I am impressed she even came to work in those conditions. Under those conditions I am sure a season is going to be fucked, but they did great with all the scary.

I never heard of her having a beef with Joss.
Stallion Dan
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(03-11-2017, 11:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shaanyboi

Nah...

Yeah!

S4 when Spike got defanged and first turned into a good guy.
It also the start of all the awful magic stories and metaphors. First magic is gay, then magic is drugs, then magic is evil, then magic some delicate tool or weapon/inner strength nonsense.

+1 Cordy best girl. Another reason S4 onwards mostly awful.
Media
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(03-11-2017, 11:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stallion Dan

Yeah!

S4 when Spike got defanged and first turned into a good guy.
It also the start of all the awful magic stories and metaphors. First magic is gay, then magic is drugs, then magic is evil, then magic some delicate tool or weapon/inner strength nonsense.

Us old fandom folk blame the 'magic is drugs' solely on Marty Nixon. They could have gone with a much better addicted to power thing but nooooooo
ascii42
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(03-11-2017, 11:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Media

Us old fandom folk blame the 'magic is drugs' solely on Marty Nixon. They could have gone with a much better addicted to power thing but nooooooo

Nope, got to have Willow go to a magic dealer in a magic den to get her magic fix otherwise she goes through magic withdrawal. Sigh.
Timedog
good credit (by proxy)
(03-11-2017, 11:19 PM)
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People forgot about the movie...
BobLoblaw
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(03-11-2017, 11:21 PM)
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This thread has encouraged me to do my first re-watch. Haven't seen the show in almost 10 years. I have Angel on DVD as well, but never watched it. Guess I'll be celebrating with everyone else!
Media
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(03-11-2017, 11:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Timedog

People forgot about the movie...

Even Joss wants to forget about the movie, his script was torn the fuck apart lol

Originally Posted by ascii42

Nope, got to have Willow go to a magic dealer in a magic den to get her magic fix otherwise she goes through magic withdrawal. Sigh.

AND IT WOULD HAGE BEEN PERFECT. Helpless little Wilow, discovering she has an affinity for magic, gets addicted the power of NOT BEING FUCKING HELPLESS anymore and suddenly she's stronger than the fucking Slayer and BAM. It all makes sense.

At least we got that scene where Buffy casually trusts Spike to take Dawn to the hospital even though they were currently fighting lol
Taruranto
<3 BioWare <3
(03-11-2017, 11:28 PM)
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Angel S4 is a mess from midpoint onward, you could see they were forced to hastily rewrite stuff because of Charisma's pregnancy.
AoM
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(03-11-2017, 11:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Media

I never heard of her having a beef with Joss.

Their relationship was definitely strained at the time.

https://youtu.be/Y_igTbXKPck?t=300
Media
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(03-11-2017, 11:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by AoM

Their relationship was definitely strained at the time.

https://youtu.be/Y_igTbXKPck?t=300

Huh, they kept that well hidden, fandom was fucking scary back then. We had shit leaked all the time.

Though I think they purposely leaked the Seeing Red AR scene a week early to emotionally prepare people lol
ascii42
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(03-11-2017, 11:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Media

Even Joss wants to forget about the movie, his script was torn the fuck apart lol



AND IT WOULD HAGE BEEN PERFECT. Helpless little Wilow, discovering she has an affinity for magic, gets addicted the power of NOT BEING FUCKING HELPLESS anymore and suddenly she's stronger than the fucking Slayer and BAM. It all makes sense.

At least we got that scene where Buffy casually trusts Spike to take Dawn to the hospital even though they were currently fighting lol

The problem with having her become too powerful was evident in Season 7, when they would often have her get knocked out early or be unwilling or at least hesitant to fight. Because otherwise fight scenes would last like two seconds.

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