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Piecake
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:40 AM)
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VOROKHOBINO, Russia — A dedicated pacifist who has never even held a gun, Andrei Sivak discovered that his government considered him a dangerous extremist when he tried to change some money and the teller “suddenly looked up at me with a face full of fear.”

His name had popped up on the exchange bureau’s computer system, along with those of members of Al Qaeda, the Islamic State and other militant groups responsible for shocking acts of violence.

The only group the 43-year-old father of three has ever belonged to, however, is Jehovah’s Witnesses, a Christian denomination committed to the belief that the Bible must be taken literally, particularly its injunction “Thou shalt not kill.”

Yet, in a throwback to the days of the Soviet Union, when Jehovah’s Witnesses were hounded as spies and malcontents by the K.G.B., the denomination is at the center of an escalating campaign by the authorities to curtail religious groups that compete with the Russian Orthodox Church and that challenge President Vladimir V. Putin’s efforts to rally the country behind traditional and often militaristic patriotic values.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/w...extremist.html
Nanashrew
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:48 AM)
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Yeah... I was talking about it earlier this afternoon. My grandma even sent a letter to Russia a couple of weeks ago pleading for this not to happen.
BY2K
Membero Americo
(04-05-2017, 05:49 AM)
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Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Jehovah’s Witnesses.

WHAT.
theWB27
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:49 AM)
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My moms is a witness
evil solrac v3.0
(04-05-2017, 05:50 AM)
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A congregation was recently attacked by a mob of people.
Prost
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:51 AM)
Well, they are extreme in the whole 'no blood transfusions'... but they're not on par with ISIS.
Tevious
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:52 AM)
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JWs don't even vote. What are they afraid of?
norm9
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:52 AM)
Somebody came into my work needed help printing a letter that was going to addressed to Putin about being nicer to JW's. Bless their heart, but I don't think it'll make a difference.
Noisy Ninj4
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tevious

JWs don't even vote. What are they afraid of?

Running out of scapegoats.
Nanashrew
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tevious

JWs don't even vote. What are they afraid of?

They don't vote and they abide by the law of the land. They show respect for government and obey the law. There's really no extremism at all.

It's just really messed up.
Amir0x
demodded, not denutted
(04-05-2017, 06:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nanashrew

They don't vote and they abide by the law of the land. They show respect for government and obey the law. There's really no extremism at all.

It's just really messed up.

Yup. They wont even pick up a gun. I dont agree with them, but to call them extremist is laughable.
Piecake
Member
(04-05-2017, 02:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Noisy Ninj4

Running out of scapegoats.

That, and it goes in line with Putin's authoritarian tendencies because Witnesses essentially reject the state.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Piecake

That, and it goes in line with Putin's authoritarian tendencies because Witnesses essentially reject the state.

Witnesses do not reject the state, do not confuse their pacifism as a rejection of the system they live under. "Give ceasers things back to ceaser", witnesses are law abiding citizens of whatever country they live in. They pay their taxes and respect the laws of the land aslong as that law does not require them to kill. If taking up a gun or 'voting' is the only criteria one has to be judged on for accepting a state then the world is truly fucked up. Anyways, I made an argument a few years ago that Russia wasn't quite a dictatorship (at that time) but it seems they are firmly one now and the government is truly asinine. Should they ban Jehovah's witnesses I hope the government gets what it deserves, because that group is among the most peaceful religious groups on earth (unfortunately among the most persecuted too).
DrROBschiz
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:09 PM)
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Extremists?

Damn son
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tevious

JWs don't even vote. What are they afraid of?

House visits.
kess
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:11 PM)
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This is a return to Stalin era policies on the Jehovah's.
Peccavi
Junior Member
(04-05-2017, 05:15 PM)
You've knocked on my door for the last time, comrade.

Really though Putin's government is scary and fucked up.
Piecake
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by GTP_Daverytimes

Witnesses do not reject the state, do not confuse their pacifism as a rejection of the system they live under. "Give ceasers things back to ceaser", witnesses are law abiding citizens of whatever country they live in. They pay their taxes and respect the laws of the land aslong as that law does not require them to kill. If taking up a gun or 'voting' is the only criteria one has to be judged on for accepting a state then the world is truly fucked up. Anyways, I made an argument a few years ago that Russia wasn't quite a dictatorship (at that time) but it seems they are firmly one now and the government is truly asinine. Should they ban Jehovah's witnesses I hope the government gets what it deserves, because that group is among the most peaceful religious groups on earth (unfortunately among the most persecuted too).

I should have worded that more clearly because I agree with this
Dude Abides
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:29 PM)
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Isn't Russian Orthodoxy the de facto state religion? Maybe they don't like the competition.
Kwixotik
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:30 PM)
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I wouldn't call them extremists, but I would call them a cult based on what former Witnesses have told me.
sechsterangriff
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by BlazinSkatinAxel

House visits.

I know I shouldn't, but I chuckled :(
SMattera
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:31 PM)
It's definitely a cult.
AcademicSaucer
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by BlazinSkatinAxel

House visits.

Especially when you are waiting for something or someone and you rush to the door and its one of them
John Kowalski
#thor2thedarkworld
(04-05-2017, 05:34 PM)
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Anxiously waiting until Russia begins ethnic cleansing in earnest.
RavenSan
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kwixotik

I wouldn't call them extremists, but I would call them a cult based on what former Witnesses have told me.

I'd take that with a grain of salt, there's most assuredly bias and some spin in their accounts.

On topic -- yeah, there was a huge campaign to letter-write. Numbers haven't been released yet, but it's most likely upwards of a million letters.

It's also nice to see so many people standing up for, instead of bashing JW's in this thread. Thanks, GAF.
astroturfing
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:46 PM)
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i'm as atheist as they come but this is fucked. just let people be who they are (as long as they're not fascists trying to restrict others' rights).
Earendil
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by RavenSan

I'd take that with a grain of salt, there's most assuredly bias and some spin in their accounts.

On topic -- yeah, there was a huge campaign to letter-write. Numbers haven't been released yet, but it's most likely upwards of a million letters.

It's also nice to see so many people standing up for, instead of bashing JW's in this thread. Thanks, GAF.

Agreed. Some may find Witnesses annoying for knocking on their doors on Saturday mornings, but I can't imagine anyone seriously considering us extremists.

I don't think the point of sending the letters was to change the minds of those in the Russian government, but more to bring awareness to what is happening, and to help those Witnesses in Russia to know that they are not alone.

Originally Posted by Rest

They're culty assholes as it is, persecuting them is a great way to turn them to extreme means.

That didn't happen when the Soviet Union forced them all to Siberia, or Hitler put them in concentration camps, and it's not going to happen this time either.
Last edited by Earendil; 04-05-2017 at 05:52 PM.
Sectorseven
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:48 PM)
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If anyone has read the Metro 2033 novels, Jehovah’s Witnesses are depicted as sort of cult like.

Granted it's post-apocalyptic sci-fi, but it's still a Russian series.
Rest
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(04-05-2017, 05:49 PM)
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They're culty assholes as it is, persecuting them is a great way to turn them to extreme means.

Originally Posted by Sectorseven

If anyone has read the Metro 2033 novels, Jehovah’s Witnesses are depicted as sort of cult like.

Because they are. Read this:
I'm Perfect, You're Doomed: Tales from a Jehovah's Witness Upbringing

They've got it all, social pressure to to weird things, strict requirements of adherents, the concept of apostasy for those who dissent. It's not a good organization.
Last edited by Rest; 04-05-2017 at 05:52 PM.
adamantypants
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:50 PM)
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Yeah outside of knocking on my doors on the weekends, I've only had positive experiences with Jehovahs Witnesses. This is baffling
Arkeband
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Prost

Well, they are extreme in the whole 'no blood transfusions'... but they're not on par with ISIS.

One I knew was disowned from her family for being gay, so there's that.

But then again, that happens in Christian and Muslim families too, albeit without protocols and guidelines surrounding cutting people out of your life.

People characterizing them as "those nice people who knock on your door" are being a little reductive.

(Obviously, what Russia is doing is wrong, however, as that will only lead to them actually being extreme)
Spaced Harrier
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:55 PM)
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JWs absolutely are extremists with cultist tendencies, no need to downplay that because Putin is a monster.

Wonder what scapegoat comrade Putin goes after next.
Cartman86
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:57 PM)
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No blood transfusions especially for children who can't make the choice themselves is a huge issue for me and one that the government should step in on (if we are talking about interfering with religious beliefs). My grandmother had horror stories about them excommunicating her and accepting her pedophile husband. As an organization they can fuck off.

Banning is always the wrong decision though.
TankRizzo
Banned
(04-05-2017, 05:58 PM)
They've had enough of those early Saturday morning knock on the door.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rest

They're culty assholes as it is, persecuting them is a great way to turn them to extreme means.


Because they are. Read this:
I'm Perfect, You're Doomed: Tales from a Jehovah's Witness Upbringing

They've got it all, social pressure to to weird things, strict requirements of adherents, the concept of apostasy for those who dissent. It's not a good organization.

Deconstructing your argument as to why JW's are a cult will not only take time but it more than likely would not change your mind judging from the tone of your text. The easier argument to have though is your assertion that they would become extreme if persecuted, what evidence suggests that assertion? Because it seems to me that it comes from a really poor if not downright ignorant assesment of the group by you, doesn't seem like you know much about anything.
Nabbis
Member
(04-05-2017, 05:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Spaced Harrier

JWs absolutely are extremists with cultist tendencies, no need to downplay that because Putin is a monster.

Wonder what scapegoat comrade Putin goes after next.

Yeah, i suppose the only positive thing is that they are non-violent and law abiding or at least offer a smokescreen. Though i don't know how similar they are to the Finnish counterparts in other countries.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Spaced Harrier

JWs absolutely are extremists with cultist tendencies, no need to downplay that because Putin is a monster.

Wonder what scapegoat comrade Putin goes after next.

All that hatred you have, a shame.
xtrasauce
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cartman86

No blood transfusions especially for children who can't make the choice themselves is a huge issue for me

Yeah, that one alone makes them extremists in my eyes. I don't need any other reason to consider them as such.
Xiao Hu
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:04 PM)
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Of all the religious nut jobs out there they've decided to pick on the them? I bet the Orthodox church is behind this
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:05 PM)
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They are pacifists, completely apolitical, non-materialistic, and virtue obsessed.

Sounds exactly like the sort of people we should label extremists.
GameAddict411
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:07 PM)
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I do consider Jehovah's witnesses to be extreme in their beliefs, but they are not the violent type of extremism. The way they treat people who left the faith by completely disowning them, or how their ideals about vaccines and blood transfusion is ridiculous and does get some people killed.
EPaul
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:07 PM)
Yup, read an article on this on my local new site and the comments section blow up about the JW being a cult or not. Did some research, i find some of their doctrine strange( the 144,000 heaven limit, the government in heaven etc) and some bad ( blood transfusion and disfellowship). But i suppport the cause against being call extremist by russia of all places
Simon Belmont
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:08 PM)
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Not allowing blood transfusions for children is an evil right up there with the worst things in this world. Frankly they should be banned as an organization until they remove that from their principles. In my opinion, of course.

Originally Posted by AbortedWalrusFetus

They are pacifists, completely apolitical, non-materialistic, and virtue obsessed.

Sounds exactly like the sort of people we should label extremists.

Letting kids die of curable diseases is pretty extreme to me.
RavenSan
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(04-05-2017, 06:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by GameAddict411

I do consider Jehovah's witnesses to be extreme in their beliefs, but they are not the violent type of extremism. The way they treat people who left the faith or their ideals about vaccines and blood transfusion is ridiculous and does get some people killed.

Vaccines? We don't have a view of vaccines at all. People should get them.
Poppy
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:09 PM)
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they do seem like a cult to me after having known one and looking into them, but its not like they are harmful in any way. though it probably is worth examining how religion affects kids for every religion, because it squicks me out to think about having a kid just to brainwash them. but whatever

also for some reason i thought adventists were just an american thing
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by GameAddict411

I do consider Jehovah's witnesses to be extreme in their beliefs, but they are not the violent type of extremism. The way they treat people who left the faith or their ideals about vaccines and blood transfusion is ridiculous and does get some people killed.

They don't have any negative views on vaccines. Just blood transfusions.

Since when is having a single extreme viewpoint (blood transfusions) enough to make people extremists?

Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

Not allowing blood transfusions for children is an evil right up there with the worst things in this world. Frankly they should be banned as an organization until they remove that from their principles. In my opinion, of course.

Letting kids die of curable diseases is pretty extreme to me.

They don't let their kids die. There are non-blood alternatives that they advocate. Blood expanders, and other techniques. They try pretty hard to embrace modern medicine in order to find ways around the blood restrictions. I don't agree with it, but to say they are uncaring is ridiculous.
Mr. Giggles
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:11 PM)
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Wait, those nice smiling people that come to my door from time to time are now extremists? What? How...in any way or form are they extremists?
LookAtMeGo
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(04-05-2017, 06:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by theWB27

My moms is a witness

My whole family is except for me and one brother.

End times are near!!
Simon Belmont
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by AbortedWalrusFetus

They don't let their kids die. There are non-blood alternatives that they advocate. Blood expanders, and other techniques. They try pretty hard to embrace modern medicine in order to find ways around the blood restrictions. I don't agree with it, but to say they are uncaring is ridiculous.

A good way to show you care is to let your kids get blood transfusions when they need them. It's what a good parent would do. If your religion is more important to you than your kids you are a bad parent.

Edit: I guess I don't really have a dog in this fight, we don't let Witnesses refuse transfusions for their kids in Canada anyways.
Mister Wolf
Member
(04-05-2017, 06:13 PM)
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Never knew I was an extremist. Learn something new everyday.

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