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Shadow Puppetry
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(04-05-2017, 06:17 PM)
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This blows my mind.
LookAtMeGo
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(04-05-2017, 06:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Arkeband

One I knew was disowned from her family for being gay, so there's that.

But then again, that happens in Christian and Muslim families too, albeit without protocols and guidelines surrounding cutting people out of your life.

People characterizing them as "those nice people who knock on your door" are being a little reductive.

(Obviously, what Russia is doing is wrong, however, as that will only lead to them actually being extreme)

Extreme how? They already got put in camps alongside the Jews in Nazi Germany and they never became "extremists"
GTP_Daverytimes
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(04-05-2017, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

A good way to show you care is to let your kids get blood transfusions when they need them. It's what a good parent would do. If your religion is more important to you than your kids you are a bad parent.

What an idiotic statement, are we somehow now forgetting the myriads of risks involved in blood transfusions? So if one looks at those risks and decides they rather try a bloodless alternative they are bad? Jehovah's witnesses have pioneerd bloodless surgeries and alternatives to transfusions, alternatives that are universally praised. Its not really hard to look up, it's good to understand something before trying to demonize it.
AbortedWalrusFetus
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(04-05-2017, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

A good way to show you care is to let your kids get blood transfusions when they need them. It's what a good parent would do. If your religion is more important to you than your kids you are a bad parent.

Edit: I guess I don't really have a dog in this fight, we don't let Witnesses refuse transfusions for their kids in Canada anyways.

I don't disagree with you. I wouldn't label them extremists because of that viewpoint. Especially considering how much effort, time and investment they spend trying to create medical alternatives. The Atlantic had a pretty good article on it recently. Surgery Without Blood Transfusions If they were extremists they wouldn't care about the fallout of their decisions. It's very obvious they do care, and are working to find a means to preserve life within the confines of their beliefs.
Simon Belmont
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(04-05-2017, 06:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by GTP_Daverytimes

What an idiotic statement, are we somehow now forgetting the myriads of risks involved in blood transfusions? So if one looks at those risks and decides they rather try a bloodless alternative they are bad? Jehovah's witnesses have pioneerd bloodless surgeries and alternatives to transfusions, alternatives that are universally praised. Its not really hard to look up, it's good to understand something before trying to demonize it.

They're so amazingly effective that real doctors stil use transfusions. Get out of here with your alternative medicine bullshit.
LookAtMeGo
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(04-05-2017, 06:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

They're so amazingly effective that real doctors stil use transfusions. Get out of here with your alternative medicine bullshit.

Real doctors also use the alternatives to blood transfusions

That said. I've always had issue with the stance against blood transfusions in many cases
AbortedWalrusFetus
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(04-05-2017, 06:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

They're so amazingly effective that real doctors stil use transfusions. Get out of here with your alternative medicine bullshit.

As you will see in the article linked, the American Association of Blood Banks advocates many of the techniques. Alternative medicine.
GTP_Daverytimes
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(04-05-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

They're so amazingly effective that real doctors stil use transfusions. Get out of here with your alternative medicine bullshit.

The hell are you talking about, who said anything about "Alternative MEDICINE"? They pioneered alternatives TO BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS, alternatives that are hundred percent medical and far safer than blood transfusions. Again poor understanding and an unwillingness to understand is why groups like Jehovah's Witnesses face persecution, because even so called educated individuals (which am sure you are) spout nonsense based on nothing about them.
MagnaderAlpha
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(04-05-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Putin must have a thing against old ladies going door to door handing out Watchtower magazines. He lets the doorbell ring and hides while taking careful peeks out the window, thinking if he stays hidden, they'll think no one's home and move on to the next house.
Simon Belmont
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(04-05-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by LookAtMeGo

Real doctors also use the alternatives to blood transfusions

That said. I've always had issue with the stance against blood transfusions in many cases

Unless they really need to use a blood transfusion, in which case they will.

Anyways, if you can square loving your kids with letting them die from bloodloss after traumatic injuries, that's great for you I guess?

Like I said, we don't put up with that bullshit where I come from.
Rats Off To Ya
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(04-05-2017, 06:29 PM)
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Coming from a family of Witnesses I'm certainly no fan of the sect, but dangerous extremists, they are not.
Damage Inc
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(04-05-2017, 06:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nabbis

Though i don't know how similar they are to the Finnish counterparts in other countries.

Actions are no different anywhere in the world. It is literally unified worldwide.

I was wondering when this topic would come up here, was curious to see the take here. I was raised and still attend. I have met a lot of great folks and I have had a pretty awesome life because of it.

Extremist is a terrifying term to be applied to the situation. Literally the most peaceful people you will find.
Spaced Harrier
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(04-05-2017, 06:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by GTP_Daverytimes

All that hatred you have, a shame.

Strange, I didn't see any in my post. Was it the bit where I called Putin a monster?
Michael F. Assbender
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(04-05-2017, 06:33 PM)
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As someone who was raised as a member of Jehovah's Witnesses, I find this laughable.

I don't agree with the religious dogma now, but I can vouch for the fact that they're about as far from extreme as you can get. You're not even allowed to serve in the military as a JW, ffs.
badblue
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(04-05-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by AbortedWalrusFetus

They are pacifists, completely apolitical, non-materialistic, and virtue obsessed.

Sounds exactly like the sort of people we should label extremists.

Not the first time Russia has done this.
EchoChamber
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(04-05-2017, 06:37 PM)
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I guess putin was chilling in his room playing overwatch main hanzo obviously but someone was at the door and he was the only one in the house so he had to answer obviously was a witness and talked about jehova and shit, because of that his team lose the ranked match and everybody blamed putin because he was AFK making putin very mad and he decided to make that decision.
Or maybe not, I don't know it's just a theory.
Muppet of a Man
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(04-05-2017, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by BY2K

Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Jehovah’s Witnesses.

WHAT.

I remember another infamous authoritarian state that was particularly heinous to Jehovah's witnesses. Looks like Russia is just following in the 3rd Reich's footsteps.
Resident_UA
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(04-05-2017, 06:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by GTP_Daverytimes

Witnesses do not reject the state, do not confuse their pacifism as a rejection of the system they live under. "Give ceasers things back to ceaser", witnesses are law abiding citizens of whatever country they live in. They pay their taxes and respect the laws of the land aslong as that law does not require them to kill. If taking up a gun or 'voting' is the only criteria one has to be judged on for accepting a state then the world is truly fucked up. Anyways, I made an argument a few years ago that Russia wasn't quite a dictatorship (at that time) but it seems they are firmly one now and the government is truly asinine. Should they ban Jehovah's witnesses I hope the government gets what it deserves, because that group is among the most peaceful religious groups on earth (unfortunately among the most persecuted too).

So this is crossing the line in your mind? Thousands of Chechens, Ukrainians, Georgians, and Syrians killed were OK with you, but now suddenly you are anti-Russian government?

Obviously Putin is doing everything to stay in power for as long as possible. This is just one of many ways in which Russian government is trying to control the people. Just read a bit about Russian church.

None of the actions that Russian government take are random or accidental as you suggested before (i.e. Crimea just felt like leaving). All of this is very well panned and is working as intended. Russia is playing a long game and is kicking everybody's ass. And the response from the world community is either "but America in 2002 did..." or "this is just one side of the story".
Last edited by Resident_UA; 04-05-2017 at 06:56 PM.
Arkeband
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(04-05-2017, 06:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Damage Inc

Actions are no different anywhere in the world. It is literally unified worldwide.

I was wondering when this topic would come up here, was curious to see the take here. I was raised and still attend. I have met a lot of great folks and I have had a pretty awesome life because of it.

Extremist is a terrifying term to be applied to the situation. Literally the most peaceful people you will find.

What happens if you leave?
Enzom21
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(04-05-2017, 06:43 PM)
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Da-Kid
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(04-05-2017, 06:46 PM)
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Calling Jehovah's Witnesses extremists and picking them out to be among other religions is like cutting a flower amongst weeds.

I grew up a Jehovah's Witness and most people have the weirdest and flat untrue views on them. They're peace loving people, the stories you heard from ex-JWs are from jaded people who did something wrong and got disciplined for it. They're simply butthurt.

JWs are NOT perfect so yeah, there are some flaws here and there but a lot of folk take all flaws as absolute and anything good as exaggerated or fabricated. Yes, they don't believe in blood transfusions but rather alternatives, blood transfusions not only go against the Bible (which most Christians know it does so stop fucking playing) but also comes with huge risks.
Derwind
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(04-05-2017, 06:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nanashrew

They don't vote and they abide by the law of the land. They show respect for government and obey the law. There's really no extremism at all.

It's just really messed up.

They take being non-confrontation to the EXTREME!

Seriously though, Russia has no room to talk about extremism considering how they treat their lgbtq community among other blatant human rights violations.
Newline
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(04-05-2017, 06:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Arkeband

What happens if you leave?

It depends. If you were baptised then you'd be have to be classed as 'dis-fellowshipped'. This means that as a JW you shouldn't associate yourself with this person. Even if they're a close relative.
It often leads to individuals being completely exiled from their social support group (friends and relatives).
Last edited by Newline; 04-05-2017 at 06:53 PM.
Da-Kid
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(04-05-2017, 06:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Arkeband

What happens if you leave?

N-O-T-H-I-N-G
I still interact with JWs all the time, they will try to ask you to come back to church, but that's it, and they will stop if you request or see clearly you don't.
Damage Inc
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(04-05-2017, 06:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Arkeband

What happens if you leave?

Depends on how you leave I suppose.

To give you a brief history of my time. After I got married I slowly faded away. Was very sporadic in attendance to pretty much nothing. I had my own doubts of faith. Was like that for years until the last few years. I started to attend again and resolved my doubts. During that time I didn't live my life any different as far as morals went and my family is still together and happy.

Now if I say cheated on my wife and left I would be disfellowshipped which I would agree with. If I chose that action I wouldn't want my actions to affect others.

Even if that were to happen you can still come back. My father had lots of issues with alcoholism and eventually was disfellowshipped. During that time he was able to quit his dependence on it, repair his own relationship at home and when he was reinstated he was happier for it. That is one year he says made all the difference for his relationships all around.
GameAddict411
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(04-05-2017, 06:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by RavenSan

Vaccines? We don't have a view of vaccines at all. People should get them.

Well, the Jehovah witnesses in the area I live in are anti vaccines. I assumed that all Jehovah witnesses share their beliefs. I apologise.
Newline
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(04-05-2017, 06:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Da-Kid

Calling Jehovah's Witnesses extremists and picking them out to be among other religions is like cutting a flower amongst weeds.

I grew up a Jehovah's Witness and most people have the weirdest and flat untrue views on them. They're peace loving people, the stories you heard from ex-JWs are from jaded people who did something wrong and got disciplined for it. They're simply butthurt.

JWs are NOT perfect so yeah, there are some flaws here and there but a lot of folk take all flaws as absolute and anything good as exaggerated or fabricated. Yes, they don't believe in blood transfusions but rather alternatives, blood transfusions not only go against the Bible (which most Christians know it does so stop fucking playing) but also comes with huge risks.

There seems to be two main groups of ex JW's. Those that absolutely abhor the practices they undertake and those that are apologists and defend them, suggesting everything they do is in good faith. It's a really difficult discussion to have. On one hand they're just like any other ultra conservative group that put their faith above anything else in their lives. On the other hand that unwillingness to bend their faith for the ones they should supposedly love, creates deep emotional scars for some that leave. Another issue in this argument is that not every JW practices in the same way, some parents are very strict while others interpret the rules alot more loosely. This adds to the differing in experiences of ex Jehovahs Witnesses.
Da-Kid
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(04-05-2017, 06:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Newline

It depends. If you were baptised then you'd be have to be classed as 'dis-fellowshipped'. This means that as a JW you shouldn't associate yourself with this person. Even if they're a close relative.

It often leads to individuals being completely exiled from their social support group (friends and relatives).

Not true, you're only dis-fellowshiped if you do something against the Bible that's considered a gross sin,that's only if you're caught, someone tells, or you tell on yourself but if you just leave, you're just labeled as inactive. If you say you don't want to be a witness, you're not disfellowshiped.
Rest
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(04-05-2017, 06:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Arkeband

What happens if you leave?

You're shunned. But hey, apparently, according to people in this thread, being forced to cut off close friends or family members if they come to the conclusion they don't believe the same things you do isn't the behavior of a cultish or a corrupt organization, so it's okay!
Brewmont
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(04-05-2017, 06:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nanashrew

They don't vote and they abide by the law of the land. They show respect for government and obey the law. There's really no extremism at all.

It's just really messed up.

I mean, they do the whole "if you dare leave the church, your family stops speaking to you" thing, which I find batshit crazy.
Damage Inc
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(04-05-2017, 06:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by GameAddict411

Well, the Jehovah witnesses in the area I live in are anti vaccines. I assumed that all Jehovah witnesses share their beliefs. I apologise.

Maybe you ran into one person who believed that but it isn't an organizational thing. 32 years of it in my past. Myself and my kids are vaccinated. Now my aunt doesn't believe in vaccines because their child died after a vaccine.
Newline
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(04-05-2017, 06:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Da-Kid

Not true, you're only dis-fellowshiped if you do something against the Bible that's considered a gross sin,that's only if you're caught, someone tells, or you tell on yourself but if you just leave, you're just labeled as inactive. If you say you don't want to be a witness, you're not disfellowshiped.

The 'gross sin' category is a huge moral grey area. For instance a wife divorcing a husband that she claims is physically abusive is still considered enough to be disfellowshipped if the woman was to stand by her decision. Edit: Only until recently, giving blood to your dying child was also enough to be disfellowshipped. Smoking? Disfellowshipped. Sex before marriage? Disfellowshipped. Homosexual? Disfellowshipped. It's a huge moral grey area that leads tonnes of people to be completely cut off from their social network for simply living their lives in the way they deem appropriate or healthy.
Last edited by Newline; 04-05-2017 at 07:01 PM.
Brewmont
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(04-05-2017, 07:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Newline

There seems to be two main groups of ex JW's. Those that absolutely abhor the practices they undertake and those that are apologists and defend them, suggesting everything they do is in good faith. It's a really difficult discussion to have. On one hand they're just like any other ultra conservative group that put their faith above anything else in their lives. On the other hand that unwillingness to bend their faith for the ones they should supposedly love, creates deep emotional scars for some that leave. Another issue in this argument is that not every JW practices in the same way, some parents are very strict while others interpret the rules alot more loosely. This adds to the differing in experiences of ex Jehovahs Witnesses.

Yeah any group that inflicts pain on people they claim to "love" for no reason other than rules, immediately makes me think of them as awful. I dated a girl who was an ex-witness and the amount of turmoil she had to go through, all while her family would say how much it hurts them to not be able to speak to her......was bullshit.
Miles X
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(04-05-2017, 07:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rest

You're shunned. But hey, apparently, according to people in this thread, being forced to cut off close friends or family members if they come to the conclusion they don't believe the same things you do isn't the behavior of a cultish or a corrupt organization, so it's okay!

My gran cut my aunt off because she had an affair (which isn't great, but to abandon your daughter). Nevermind that my aunt hadn't been in the religion for like 3 years anyway.

Are we really arguing for them though? They're as grossly homophobic as your average homophobic Russian at this point ...
Rats Off To Ya
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(04-05-2017, 07:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Da-Kid

Calling Jehovah's Witnesses extremists and picking them out to be among other religions is like cutting a flower amongst weeds.

I grew up a Jehovah's Witness and most people have the weirdest and flat untrue views on them. They're peace loving people, the stories you heard from ex-JWs are from jaded people who did something wrong and got disciplined for it. They're simply butthurt.

JWs are NOT perfect so yeah, there are some flaws here and there but a lot of folk take all flaws as absolute and anything good as exaggerated or fabricated. Yes, they don't believe in blood transfusions but rather alternatives, blood transfusions not only go against the Bible (which most Christians know it does so stop fucking playing) but also comes with huge risks.

My mother was disowned by her entire family just for making the decision to remove herself and her three children from the church. You can fuck right off with that shit.
Damage Inc
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(04-05-2017, 07:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Newline

The 'gross sin' category is a huge moral grey area. For instance a wife divorcing a husband that she claims is physically abusive is still considered enough to be dis-fellowshipped if the woman was to stand by her decision.

I'm going to look into that because I'm not sure that's the case. Pretty sure that isn't the case. Easy to find out tho. Abuse in my view is considered grounds. Especially if authorities are involved.
Menchi
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(04-05-2017, 07:02 PM)
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Ehh, people forgetting that JW cartoon which basically said Kids of LGBT couples should get their parents to change so they don't go to hell. They're not extremists, but they're as despicable as any other religious institution.

Still, freedom to believe in whatever you like should be a basic right so can't agree with them being singled out like this.
AbortedWalrusFetus
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(04-05-2017, 07:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Menchi

so they don't go to hell.

They don't believe in hell. They believe you cease to exist in all forms upon death.
AlexFlame116
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(04-05-2017, 07:06 PM)
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I've met plenty of Jehovah's Witnesses in recent times, especially during the 2 years. Yes some of their beliefs are unorthodox in my opinion but they are in no way extremists! Not even close!
Menchi
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(04-05-2017, 07:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by AbortedWalrusFetus

They don't believe in hell. They believe you cease to exist in all forms upon death.

Well that video, pretty clearly indicated that the parents "wouldn't be with Jehovah" if they didn't stop being gay. I'm not going to argue semantics of afterlife terms. The fact is they sent a message that kids if these couples should be stopping their parents going against Jehovah. That is the abhorrent part.

The vid for clarity
Last edited by Menchi; 04-05-2017 at 07:12 PM.
Newline
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(04-05-2017, 07:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Damage Inc

I'm going to look into that because I'm not sure that's the case. Pretty sure that isn't the case. Easy to find out tho. Abuse in my view is considered grounds. Especially if authorities are involved.

From my knowledge domestic abuse is behaviour that can be altered and modified. A woman shouldn't resort to divorce in this case as they see the mans behaviour as being fixable. From my experiences getting the authorities involved is to be avoided if at all possible. It should be handled by the elders of the congregation.
Simon Belmont
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(04-05-2017, 07:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Newline

The 'gross sin' category is a huge moral grey area. For instance a wife divorcing a husband that she claims is physically abusive is still considered enough to be disfellowshipped if the woman was to stand by her decision. Edit: Only until recently, giving blood to your dying child was also enough to be disfellowshipped. Smoking? Disfellowshipped. Sex before marriage? Disfellowshipped. Homosexual? Disfellowshipped. It's a huge moral grey area that leads tonnes of people to be completely cut off from their social network for simply living their lives in the way they deem appropriate or healthy.

I'm just curious, when Doctors in Canada give medically necessary blood transfusions to 12-year-olds against the wishes of her parents is it the parents who get the scarlet letter? Or the girl?
Mister Wolf
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(04-05-2017, 07:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rest

You're shunned. But hey, apparently, according to people in this thread, being forced to cut off close friends or family members if they come to the conclusion they don't believe the same things you do isn't the behavior of a cultish or a corrupt organization, so it's okay!

I'm whats considered inactive because I don't attend much or at all and I haven't been shunned at all. All I receive is love from my Witness family members and Witness associates I grew up with. Encouragement from my mother and others to come back occasionally because they care. My best friend who I grew up with is still a regular member and I talk, game, and hang out with that person on a regular basis.
Last edited by Mister Wolf; 04-05-2017 at 07:18 PM.
Aiustis
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(04-05-2017, 07:15 PM)
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Jehovah's Witnesses can't catch a break.
Damage Inc
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(04-05-2017, 07:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Newline

From my knowledge domestic abuse is behaviour that can be altered and modified. A woman shouldn't resort to divorce in this case as they see the mans behaviour as being fixable. From my experiences getting the authorities involved is to be avoided if at all possible. It should be handled by the elders of the congregation.

I sent my brother in law a text. He is an elder so it will be easy to find out.
Newline
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(04-05-2017, 07:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

I'm just curious, when Doctors in Canada give medically necessary blood transfusions to 12-year-olds against the wishes of her parents is it the parents who get the scarlet letter? Or the girl?

I'm pretty sure they'd be fine, it was against the girls and her parents wishes. Anyway getting blood transfusions are fine now. It's now left up to the parents to decide rather than a flat out no from the church.
Drazgul
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(04-05-2017, 07:18 PM)
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Good, their reign of terror pestering people at their homes must end.
Earendil
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(04-05-2017, 07:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Simon Belmont

I'm just curious, when Doctors in Canada give medically necessary blood transfusions to 12-year-olds against the wishes of her parents is it the parents who get the scarlet letter? Or the girl?

Neither, it was against any of their wishes.
GameAddict411
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(04-05-2017, 07:18 PM)
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Considering I am seeing people on here part of the faith, I would like to for you to explain to me how people are disfellowshipped for the stupidest reasons? I know a few of my friends who grew up in Jehovah witnesses families but they were abused for being gay(demonized even) or for simplist violation of their beliefs. They were kicked out of their homes when they are very young as well. Families are torn apart. How can there be justification for that?
Da-Kid
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(04-05-2017, 07:20 PM)
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If there was one thing I agreed with is a better way to discipline than being Disfellowship. That's just too much mental and social anguish.

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