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Earendil
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(04-06-2017, 03:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by WillyFive

I've been troubled by Watchtower's decision to begin the letter writing campaign. It goes against the rule to remain neutral in political matters. Actively promoting every congregation around the world to do this feels out of left field, probably to promote good feelings amongst Witnesses for helping each other out, despite doing this at any other time would have caused Elders to reprimand you. What do you feel about this?



I know that, it's related to what I was referring to.



Absolutely. But should the Watchtower punish their members for choosing not to take that chance?

We wrote letters to Malawi in the 70s...
Agent Unknown
Member
(04-06-2017, 03:39 AM)
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Well folks, what can you say? History and ugly attitudes are gradually repeating itself in these times around the world. Hitler threw the Witnesses into the concentration camps for their "extremist" ways back then too because they obviously wouldn't support the Nazi state which they viewed as Satanic both due to Hitler putting himself in God's position ("Heli Hitler" transliterated to 'Salvation by Hitler') and his persecution and murder of the Jews all of which were enabled by the support he received from the churches which they openly and loudly exposed in their public literature all of which infuriated Hitler who said "I will wipe out the Bible students (as JWs were known then) in Germany!"

Jehovah's Witnesses Holocaust Museum information page:

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/...uleId=10005394

There are 23 Supreme Court Cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses in the U.S. which all helped uphold the 1st Amendment and free speech for all. This page also breaks down cases for other countries:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supr...ses_by_country

"How Jehovah's Witnesses are Changing Medicine,"
a three part series from 2015 by the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-d...g-medicine/amp

My brother in law who has been an elder for quite a few years told me that if evidence is found that someone has been physically or sexually abused, the direction he is given as an elder is that the wife/family is told they need to go to the authorities and if the person who committed the abuse happens to be an elder, the man is disfellowshipped for the abuse. He also added if the abuse was sexual in nature even if the man is sincerely repentant and is reinstated such a man can never be allowed to be in a position of authority in any congregation again. He said a woman is not disfellowshipped for divorcing her husband for physical abuse, the man is supposed to be disfellowshipped. If the wife and husband still seem to love each other then they will try to give them both strong advice they think may help them repair the marriage if it's salvageable but if the wife is in prolonged physical danger he said she needs to consider the option of divorce at that point but they can't make the decision for her either way, she has to decide herself as it's a very personal matter between her and God. He said there have been cases that have been mishandled but that is the direction they are supposed to follow. Not perfect but certainly better then how the Catholic Church has handled abuse in their ranks I'd say.
sergioalb64
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(04-06-2017, 03:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by WillyFive

I've been troubled by Watchtower's decision to begin the letter writing campaign. It goes against the rule to remain neutral in political matters. Actively promoting every congregation around the world to do this feels out of left field, probably to promote good feelings amongst Witnesses for helping each other out, despite doing this at any other time would have caused Elders to reprimand you. What do you feel about this?

I... feel bad. I haven't been as active as I wish I was and I completely didn't think of this. I'm in complete agreement with you. I wonder what the justification is?

Maybe we're missing something. If not, to be honest, yes, this is concerning. Thank you for pointing it out.
AzureRonin
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(04-06-2017, 03:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by WillyFive

I've been troubled by Watchtower's decision to begin the letter writing campaign. It goes against the rule to remain neutral in political matters. Actively promoting every congregation around the world to do this feels out of left field, probably to promote good feelings amongst Witnesses for helping each other out, despite doing this at any other time would have caused Elders to reprimand you. What do you feel about this?



I know that, it's related to what I was referring to.

It's mainly a legal issue, Witnesses have used the court system extensively to defend their rights to practice their religion. Letter writing campaigns have been done in the past, it's nothing new. It's making a defense of their beliefs.
Earendil
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(04-06-2017, 03:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by Agent Unknown


My brother in law who has been an elder for quite a few years told me that if evidence is found that someone has been physically or sexually abused, the direction he is given as an elder is that the wife/family is told they need to go to the authorities and if the person who committed the abuse happens to be an elder, the man is disfellowshipped for the abuse. He also added if the abuse was sexual in nature even if the man is sincerely repentant and is reinstated such a man can never be allowed to be in a position of authority in any congregation again. He said a woman is not disfellowshipped for divorcing her husband for physical abuse, the man is supposed to be disfellowshipped. If the wife and husband still seem to love each other then they will try to give them both strong advice they think may help them repair the marriage if it's salvageable but if the wife is in prolonged physical danger he said she needs to consider the option of divorce at that point but they can't make the decision for her either way, she has to decide herself as it's a very personal matter between her and God. He said there have been cases that have been mishandled but that is the direction they are supposed to follow. Not perfect but certainly better then how the Catholic Church has handled abuse in their ranks I'd say.

This. I have a friend who's ex husband was physically abusive (not sexually) to her and their two kids. She left him and divorced him, and she was perfectly justified in doing so. Her elders would never have told her that she was required to stay with him.
WillyFive
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(04-06-2017, 03:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by Earendil

We wrote letters to Malawi in the 70s...

Which was a major controversy at the time because that's all that was allowed to be done. Malawi Witnesses were going through horrid stuff (aka, torture) just because they weren't allowed to hold a political card; while in Mexico (this is at the same time, mind you), the Watchtowers allowed Witnesses to hold a political card (the Cartilla card) so that they didn't need to go to Military service. This caused a lot of discomfort because the Governing Body didn't allow Malawi Witnesses to do something Mexicans were allowed to do. My point is that it doesn't fit their normal stances on neutrality.
sergioalb64
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(04-06-2017, 03:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by AzureRonin

It's mainly a legal issue, Witnesses have used the court system extensively to defend their rights to practice their religion. Letter writing campaigns have been done in the past, it's nothing new. It's making a defense of their beliefs.

Like he said, and what I agree with, is that it is somewhat troubling. But when push comes to shove, wether neutral or not, pursuing freedom of ANY religion is what I wish to see.

I just wish no religion in any region was in this situation. Pipe dream.
Cyanity
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(04-06-2017, 03:49 AM)
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Just because Jehovas Witnesses are a giant cult doesn't mean they should be outright banned from a country. Russia being insane and dictatorial, as usual.
Nanashrew
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(04-06-2017, 03:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Agent Unknown

Well folks, what can you say? History and ugly attitudes are gradually repeating itself in these times around the world. Hitler threw the Witnesses into the concentration camps for their "extremist" ways back then too because they obviously wouldn't support the Nazi state which they viewed as Satanic both due to Hitler putting himself in God's position ("Heli Hitler" transliterated to 'Salvation by Hitler') and his persecution and murder of the Jews all of which were enabled by the support he received from the churches which they openly and loudly exposed in their public literature all of which infuriated Hitler who said "I will wipe out the Bible students (as JWs were known then) in Germany!"

Jehovah's Witnesses Holocaust Museum information page:

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/...uleId=10005394

There are 23 Supreme Court Cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses in the U.S. which all helped uphold the 1st Amendment and free speech for all. This page also breaks down cases for other countries:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supr...ses_by_country

"How Jehovah's Witnesses are Changing Medicine,"
a three part series from 2015 by the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-d...g-medicine/amp

My brother in law who has been an elder for quite a few years told me that if evidence is found that someone has been physically or sexually abused, the direction he is given as an elder is that the wife/family is told they need to go to the authorities and if the person who committed the abuse happens to be an elder, the man is disfellowshipped for the abuse. He also added if the abuse was sexual in nature even if the man is sincerely repentant and is reinstated such a man can never be allowed to be in a position of authority in any congregation again. He said a woman is not disfellowshipped for divorcing her husband for physical abuse, the man is supposed to be disfellowshipped. If the wife and husband still seem to love each other then they will try to give them both strong advice they think may help them repair the marriage if it's salvageable but if the wife is in prolonged physical danger he said she needs to consider the option of divorce at that point but they can't make the decision for her either way, she has to decide herself as it's a very personal matter between her and God. He said there have been cases that have been mishandled but that is the direction they are supposed to follow. Not perfect but certainly better then how the Catholic Church has handled abuse in their ranks I'd say.

Yeah, this is how I've known it. And most of my family who are Jehovah Witnesses.
harSon
(04-06-2017, 03:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Volimar

^Especially given blood shortages.




That's what I mean about the different orthodoxies. Some places ignore a lot of that or pay it lip service at best. The blood transfusion thing is a big one though. My uncle got pig cartilage in his knee and they seemed to be okay with that so <shrug>.

Indoctrinating kids has always been shitty and a strike against most organized religions for me. Believe what you want, but society has a vested interest in you not being able to refuse life saving treatments to children.

Doesn't the Watchtower kind of dictate that type of stuff? I suppose you do get some cultural influences than can make practices more strict or lenient. For example, my girlfriend who is Hispanic, had to deal with that traditional (Catholic influenced) Hispanic cultural upbringing on top of being in a JW household - that more Western congregations didn't necessarily have to deal with.
AzureRonin
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(04-06-2017, 03:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by sergioalb64

Like he said, and what I agree with, is that it is somewhat troubling. But when push comes to shove, wether neutral or not, pursuing freedom of ANY religion is what I wish to see.

I just wish no religion in any region was in this situation. Pipe dream.

well you can't expect perfection from imperfect people. Maybe it can be seen as not remaining politically neutral but frankly that's not completely possible when you consider the reality that we are part of society in general. It's all about balance.
Earendil
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(04-06-2017, 03:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by WillyFive

Which was a major controversy at the time because that's all that was allowed to be done. Malawi Witnesses were going through horrid stuff (aka, torture) just because they weren't allowed to hold a political card; while in Mexico (this is at the same time, mind you), the Watchtowers allowed Witnesses to hold a political card (the Cartilla card) so that they didn't need to go to Military service. This caused a lot of discomfort because the Governing Body didn't allow Malawi Witnesses to do something Mexicans were allowed to do. My point is that it doesn't fit their normal stances on neutrality.

I was just a kid during the Malawi stuff, so I don't remember the controversy. But it could have been that the card in Malawi had different requirements then the one in Mexico. Perhaps the Mexican one allowed for a neutral stance.

Either way, the organization has put a lot of energy into "legally establishing and defending the good news", much as the apostle Paul did in the first century when he went before Caesar. This campaign it's just an extension of that. It is not advocating one particular government or party over others, but simply asking that our brothers and sisters be allowed to worship in peace.
Agent Unknown
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(04-06-2017, 03:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by WillyFive

I've been troubled by Watchtower's decision to begin the letter writing campaign. It goes against the rule to remain neutral in political matters. Actively promoting every congregation around the world to do this feels out of left field, probably to promote good feelings amongst Witnesses for helping each other out, despite doing this at any other time would have caused Elders to reprimand you.

Our practice of remaining politically neutral mainly extends to things such as voting, going to war and violence. Letter writing and petitioning by the organization has gone on and been encouraged since the 1970s when the JWs were being viciously persecuted in Malawi and wrote to the government in Malawi.

It's not hypocrisy, it's based on Paul's appeals to the Roman authorities to be allowed to continue his public ministry in peace. Paul and the early Christians in the first century refused to vote, worship the emperor and go to war but Paul would appeal to the courts for relief whenever possible which he was able to do since Paul had dual citizenship both as a Roman and as a Jew and former Pharisee.

Paul, Phillipans 1:7: "It is only right for me to think this regarding all of you, since I have you in my heart, you who are sharers with me in the undeserved kindness both in my prison bonds and in the defending and legally establishing of the good news."

This and similar verses are used as the basis for the JW's appeals and many victories in the Supreme Court and for letter writing campaigns such as this.
Last edited by Agent Unknown; 04-06-2017 at 05:20 AM.
Volimar
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(04-06-2017, 04:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by harSon

Doesn't the Watchtower kind of dictate that type of stuff? I suppose you do get some cultural influences than can make practices more strict or lenient. For example, my girlfriend who is Hispanic, had to deal with that traditional (Catholic influenced) Hispanic cultural upbringing on top of being in a JW household - that more Western congregations didn't necessarily have to deal with.

Well sure, but I don't think it's strictly cultural. I think it's as much about what the local congregation is comfortable with. Like I said, there are two Kingdom Halls in my town with very different levels of interpretation.
WillyFive
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(04-06-2017, 04:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by Agent Unknown

Our practice of remaining politically neutral mainly extends to things such as voting, going to war and violence. Letter writing and petitioning by the organization has gone on and been encouraged since the 1970s when the JWs were being viciously persecuted in Malawi. It's based on Paul's appeals to the Roman authorities to be allowed to continue his public ministry in peace. Paul and the early Christians in the first century refused to vote, worship the emperor and go to war but Paul would appeal to the courts for relief whenever possible which he was able to do since Paul had dual citizenship both as a Roman and as a Jew and former Pharisee.

Paul, Phillipans 1:7: "It is only right for me to think this regarding all of you, since I have you in my heart, you who are sharers with me in the undeserved kindness both in my prison bonds and in the defending and legally establishing of the good news."

This and similar verses are used as the basis for the JW's appeals and many victories in the Supreme Court and for letter writing campaigns such as this.

Originally Posted by Earendil

I was just a kid during the Malawi stuff, so I don't remember the controversy. But it could have been that the card in Malawi had different requirements then the one in Mexico. Perhaps the Mexican one allowed for a neutral stance.

Either way, the organization has put a lot of energy into "legally establishing and defending the good news", much as the apostle Paul did in the first century when he went before Caesar. This campaign it's just an extension of that. It is not advocating one particular government or party over others, but simply asking that our brothers and sisters be allowed to worship in peace.

Originally Posted by AzureRonin

It's mainly a legal issue, Witnesses have used the court system extensively to defend their rights to practice their religion. Letter writing campaigns have been done in the past, it's nothing new. It's making a defense of their beliefs.

Originally Posted by sergioalb64

I... feel bad. I haven't been as active as I wish I was and I completely didn't think of this. I'm in complete agreement with you. I wonder what the justification is?

Maybe we're missing something. If not, to be honest, yes, this is concerning. Thank you for pointing it out.

Thanks for the replies. It's certainly something to keep in mind.
Agent Unknown
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(04-06-2017, 04:14 AM)
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Also, I certainly didn't send my letters to Russia last week to promote "good feelings." I sent my letters to Putin and government officials last week (futile though it may be ultimately) begging them to consider cutting my brothers and sisters there a break not out of good feelings but because 175,000 human beings are in imminent danger of being treated like their ancestors who were shipped off to Siberia for the same reason in the 1950s. This is all because the Orthodox Church knows we are gaining ground which scares them and they will get in bed with Putin gladly just to keep their own skins and their position just as sadly the Pope and the majority of the Catholic Church and other major churches got in bed with Hitler in Europe and openly supported him in WW II while 6 million Jews were sent off to the camps along with the Witnesses, Romani, Homosexuals and the disabled. That's one of the of the key historical reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to get involved in politics, it's not just imitation of Jesus and the early Christians' refusal to involve themselves in politics in the first century, it's the obvious fact that collusion between religion and the state has resulted in endless human misery and genocide for countless centuries.
Aaronology
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(04-06-2017, 04:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cyanity

Just because Jehovas Witnesses are a giant cult doesn't mean they should be outright banned from a country. Russia being insane and dictatorial, as usual.

Witnesses are no more of a cult than Catholics or any other sect of Christianity. I believe the primary thing that sets them apart is their attempt to actually adhere to their interpretation of the Bible.
Amir0x
demodded, not denutted
(04-06-2017, 04:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Damage Inc

Nah. Celibacy has nothing to do with it. I grew up with an older lady who is still around that partakes as one of the 144000. She has had children and is currently married.

Funny enough the ones that identify as part of the 144000 are the most chill people I have met.

Their whole purpose is to help rule with earthly experience after all is said and done.
Sorry for the double post.

I cant vouch for the lady, but celibacy is definitely part of it. I read JW literature proclaiming that, and spoke to multiple "chosen" at a Memorial after they partook of the wine and unleavened bread.

Very few women are part of the 144,000, and they are almost all extremely old (80+) and are fastly dying off.

For a while JWs preached that the end times would come before the last 144,000 died, but they since changed that.
WhiskerFrisker
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(04-06-2017, 04:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by harSon

My girlfriend is from a Jehovah's Witness family. There's A LOT of fucked up things in that religion, much more so than other religions.

- You're not allowed to associate yourselves with non Jehovah's Witness people, if at all possible. Basically, outside of any situations that make avoiding non-JW's an impossibility (work, school, etc) - you're not supposed to make a conscientious effort to befriend, associate or date non-JW's.

- They're REALLY big about public shaming. If you do something the church doesn't agree with, they will publicly air it - if not directly then heavily hinted at / implied - and you will be shunned by other JW's.

- If you break any rules, there's the possibility of being disfellowshipped. Meaning that you JW's are no longer supposed to interact with you. If your child is disfellowshipped for example, you're obligated to shun them. My girlfriend was kicked out of the house at 16, and sent to an Aunt's house after being disfellowshipped. And her parents didn't talk to her at all, and they still don't

- Physical abuse, and pedophilia are a HUGE problem with the JW church. So I suppose that's not so different from the Catholic church.

- They literally push for JW's not to pursue higher education, but instead, to pursue a higher education in the ways of the religion / church. Because what better education is there than God's teachings? It's by far the least educated religion I believe.

- The basis of the religion is literally isolating one's self from the world, which the church teaches is filled with 'worldly' things that will tempt you away from God's teachings. They discourage independent thinking in a BIG way.

- Opposite sexes are not allowed to be with one another without a chaperone, unless they are married.

- When a JW woman handles any responsibility that should be handled by a man, such as organizing groups for their preaching work, she needs to wear a head covering. They're do this in an act of submission, to show that they're not taking on duties reserved for men.

- You shouldn't accept a blood transfusion, even if death is a possibility. My girlfriend literally had a card on her, which she had no control over as a minor, saying not to give her a blood transfusion.

I just wanted to address this post and clarify some of the points you raised. I feel like I can do this since I am baptized as one of Jehovah's witnesses, but I have distance myself for almost a year now. Regarding your first point: this is not the entire truth. You can have associates in the "world", but you're​not supposed to become close with them. This is because of literal interpretation of Scripture in which God's people wouldn't be a part of the world. So having close friends who are non-believers can taint your faith. I can understand the thought process because it's what caused me to become very critical. My friends in high school and college always challenged me which in turn made me challenge my beliefs. But, you can have associates; it's literally unavoidable if you are law abiding and work to support a family.

Public shaming is absolutely false. Full stop. If a person gets disfellowshipped, the reasons for it remains secret unless someone besides the elders reveal what happened. In fact, I tried to pry information regarding what happened to one person and the elder told me it stays private. He said that he doesn't even tell his wife when and what occurs during these meetings.

Disfellowshipping is something I do not agree with at all, and it's a topic that infuriated me when it was discussed at a Sunday meeting last year, I believe. It's​ essentially hypocritical that Jehovah, a God whom we are taught that his supreme quality is love, would enact a policy which is down right cruel. However, Disfellowshipping is done as a last resort as the elders do not want to lose people in the organization. What they will always try is to reprove the person. It essentially is discipline by revoking certain "privileges" in the congregation. Although this really only applies to brothers since women have next to zero responsibilities within the congregation.

I can attest to the cover up of sexual assault. Within my congregation a older sister was being harassed by one of the elders. The only reason I knew about was because she told me herself while out in the ministry. She would tell me how she complained and the elders did nothing and one even suggested that she should switch congregations. Finally her son, who is not, Witness, told her to file a restraining order on the elder. I asked her why is that happening, and she simply told me that her trust is in Jehovah, and that he is in control, not men. I'm not sure what became of the incident since I haven't shown myself to anyone in the congregation for close to a year now. If that is happening in that congregation-where the elders were very, very strict- I can only imagine it happening elsewhere so I will not deny that at all.

The higher education ordeal is another thing that really grinds my gears. I felt that I was being subtlety attack for attending college by the organization through the watchtower which heavily discouraged it. I suspect that the governing body knows that college makes people incredibly critical and people are simply exposed to so many things that can cause them to leave. I know that college is when I finally had the ability to solidify what I believed in through reason, although doubt had already set in.

Women having to place head scarfs seems incredibly asinine to me. And the fact of the manner is that it's really a last resort option; they will even take a young teenage boy who is not baptized to take the lead in the ministry or any other activity that requires men. They made me do it when I was 14. What happened was that the older women basically backseat modded the entire way and I was a figure head. How can God relegate woman to such inferiority if he created her to be a "helper." It's incredibly sexist and it's something I cannot agree with or overlook.

Blood transfusion is what it is; a literal interpretation of Scripture which says you shall not take in blood. Since the fear/love of God supersedes all of your beliefs, you will follow it. It's believed that you will remain in God's memory should you die from not receiving blood.

So this is an incredibly long post but I thought it was important to give some clarity to your post and others too. Disfellowshipping hit hard for me because I simple do not want to be a Witness anymore, but if I leave I will be disfellowshipped. Ordinarily I wouldn't care but my mom raised me and my two siblings as witnesses. I am the only one who is baptized and it would break her heart if I got disfellowshipped. She is a single mother who really put her trust in Jehovah when my father left her with us. So I only remain because I care about her feelings. Disfellowshipping is simply a way to guilt trip a person to return to the organization.

Well, that's my two cents anyway.
Earendil
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(04-06-2017, 04:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

I cant vouch for the lady, but celibacy is definitely part of it. I read JW literature proclaiming that, and spoke to multiple "chosen" at a Memorial after they partook of the wine and unleavened bread.

Very few women are part of the 144,000, and they are almost all extremely old (80+) and are fastly dying off.

For a while JWs preached that the end times would come before the last 144,000 died, but they since changed that.

All members of the governing body are of the anointed, and with the exception of one, are all married. I'm not sure where you read the celibacy thing, but it's completely inaccurate.
Agent Unknown
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(04-06-2017, 05:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

I cant vouch for the lady, but celibacy is definitely part of it.

No it's not. Not sure what you read but celibacy has never been taught as a spiritual requirement for *anyone* including the 144,000. Some of the apostles including Peter were married. It has never been portrayed as anything more than a personal preference if a person simply feels they would be better off being single, neither Jesus nor Paul ever issued a command of celibacy. In one verse Paul said in *his opinion* it could be better if a man chose to remain single as that would possibly allow that person to focus on their ministry more but then added that the person should marry otherwise. Strict vows of celibacy and things such as forced refusal to eat certain kinds of food during ceremonies such as Lent are viewed as unscriptural teachings which is based on these verses from Paul at 1 Timothy 4:1-5, my grandmother left the Catholic Church and became a JW in the 1940s after reading these verses:

"Paul: However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron. 3 They forbid marriage and command people to abstain from foods that God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. 4 For every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over it."
Last edited by Agent Unknown; 04-06-2017 at 05:30 AM.
Amir0x
demodded, not denutted
(04-06-2017, 05:47 AM)
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Jw doctrine changes frequently, im gonna ask my sister if i can find the Literature that said this. When i was young though, i definitely got that impression from what i read and the annointed i talked to at a "Memorial" in Brooklyn. He def was not married.
Dopus
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(04-06-2017, 05:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

I cant vouch for the lady, but celibacy is definitely part of it. I read JW literature proclaiming that, and spoke to multiple "chosen" at a Memorial after they partook of the wine and unleavened bread.

Very few women are part of the 144,000, and they are almost all extremely old (80+) and are fastly dying off.

For a while JWs preached that the end times would come before the last 144,000 died, but they since changed that.

Celibacy is definitely not a part of it. I'm not sure where you're getting that from but there are many who consider themselves as part of the Annointed class, married, with children may I add.

As far as the comment regarding women is concerned, where are you getting the figures from? If I recall, they don't release them and only the number who partake in the memorial emblems are published - well until a few years back I believe.

And yeah, that's correct. It has to do without the contemporaries of a generation. I'm a bit iffy on the specifics as I left a couple of years ago.
LookAtMeGo
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(04-06-2017, 05:52 AM)
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I was always jealous that the anointed got to eat the bread and drink the wine. I wanted some too!
Prost
Member
(04-06-2017, 05:59 AM)

Originally Posted by Volimar

Wow, I never met anyone claiming to be one of the 144,000. Seems a tad presumptuous doesn't it?

Wasnt there a TV series called the 144,000? I may be off a few digits.
Irishmantis
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(04-06-2017, 06:02 AM)
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My Anti is a part of them, they definitely are weird cult like, but hey let them be!

It seems it affects no one but themselves (except when they knock at doors)
Agent Unknown
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(04-06-2017, 06:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

Jw doctrine changes frequently, im gonna ask my sister if i can find the Literature that said this. When i was young though, i definitely got that impression from what i read and the annointed i talked to at a "Memorial" in Brooklyn. He def was not married.

Ok, I'm fourth generation raised in this religion since birth and I've always been taught celibacy is not a requirement for anyone per the verses I posted above. And our doctrines do not change frequently, there have been times where they get properly refined as needed when there is a reason based in the scritptures to do so, this is in imitation of the apostles who were humble enough to make scriptural adjustments at times. The only reason I can think of is that someone who is anointed would maybe choose of their own accord not to be married because they would be worried about the emotional stress of not being with their mate later when they are in heaven. Otherwise many of the anointed have been married.
Last edited by Agent Unknown; 04-06-2017 at 06:09 AM.
Earendil
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(04-06-2017, 06:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

Jw doctrine changes frequently, im gonna ask my sister if i can find the Literature that said this. When i was young though, i definitely got that impression from what i read and the annointed i talked to at a "Memorial" in Brooklyn. He def was not married.

Perhaps that brother was not married, but that doesn't mean he was required to be celibate. For instance, the first three presidents of the Watchtower society (Russell, Rutherford, and Knorr) were all married, and all anointed.


Edit:

I'm just going to leave this here:

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1...13#h=2:0-4:348
Last edited by Earendil; 04-06-2017 at 06:20 AM.
dpunk3
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(04-06-2017, 06:32 AM)
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The only crime a witness commits is trespassing on my yard at 6 am ringing my doorbell to talk to me about Christ.

Seriously wtf? I mean, this is in the same country that had a couple of witnesses go on a rampage and killed 13 people.... but that was almost 10 years ago.
Earendil
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(04-06-2017, 06:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by dpunk3

The only crime a witness commits is trespassing on my yard at 6 am ringing my doorbell to talk to me about Christ.

Seriously wtf? I mean, this is in the same country that had a couple of witnesses go on a rampage and killed 13 people.... but that was almost 10 years ago.

Wait, what??
Dopus
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(04-06-2017, 06:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by dpunk3

The only crime a witness commits is trespassing on my yard at 6 am ringing my doorbell to talk to me about Christ.

Seriously wtf? I mean, this is in the same country that had a couple of witnesses go on a rampage and killed 13 people.... but that was almost 10 years ago.

Did they go on a rampage because they were Witnesses?

And 6AM? I doubt it.
Rest
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(04-06-2017, 06:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by WillyFive

I've been troubled by Watchtower's decision to begin the letter writing campaign. It goes against the rule to remain neutral in political matters. Actively promoting every congregation around the world to do this feels out of left field, probably to promote good feelings amongst Witnesses for helping each other out, despite doing this at any other time would have caused Elders to reprimand you. What do you feel about this?

Persecution is not a matter of politics, it's a matter of justice. No one should stand by and watch others be persecuted.
dpunk3
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(04-06-2017, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dopus

Did they go on a rampage because they were Witnesses?

And 6AM? I doubt it.

Yea, claimed they were on a mission from God or whatever.

And believe me, 6 am is accurate. They go out in service starting at 4 am.
Source: everyone in my family and their next door fucking neighbor is a witness.
Dopus
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(04-06-2017, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by dpunk3

Yea, claimed they were on a mission from God or whatever.

Mental illness then.

4AM? Where do you live? Field service starts at 9:30/9:45AM from my experience. Individuals can start earlier of course, but they won't knock doors that early. Just approach people on the street or businesses.
Last edited by Dopus; 04-06-2017 at 06:49 AM.
PHOENIXZERO
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(04-06-2017, 06:48 AM)
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IDK about Russia but calling them "extremist" seems pretty far fetched, especially when it comes to violence for the most part but Poots needs something to make an enemy out of to distract the masses as he and his cohorts continue to rob their people blind. But JW is definitely at the very least cult-like.

Originally Posted by Prost

Wasnt there a TV series called the 144,000? I may be off a few digits.

The 4400, was a Sci-Fi show on the USA Network.
Saturnman
Member
(04-06-2017, 10:04 AM)
Witnesses still go door to door? In my corner of the world, they've stopped doing that, opting instead to stand in busy train stations and crowded streets and wait for people to come to them.
siddx
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(04-06-2017, 10:23 AM)
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I consider them extremists because they interpret and follow their religion in what I consider an extreme way. Many religious sects are extremists.
But are they violent? Not even remotely. So this is a pretty transparent move to make sure the Russian orthodox church is the sole bastion of religious interpretation since its beliefs line up fairly well with the government's shitty and hateful policies.
Aytumious
Junior Member
(04-06-2017, 10:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rest

They're culty assholes as it is, persecuting them is a great way to turn them to extreme means.

Because they are. Read this:
I'm Perfect, You're Doomed: Tales from a Jehovah's Witness Upbringing

They've got it all, social pressure to to weird things, strict requirements of adherents, the concept of apostasy for those who dissent. It's not a good organization.

Do you consider Catholicism a cult?
Billy_Pilgrim
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(04-06-2017, 12:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Aytumious

Do you consider Catholicism a cult?

It began as a cult, as all religions do. JW's are in a cult, there's no two ways about it I'm afraid. Of course people who are in a cult do not recognise that they're in a cult until they leave the cult.

In this thread you have clear examples of people who are in a cult reacting with cult like responses to people pointing out they're in a cult.

"The JW's would never do X"
*Lists of examples of that exact thing happening*
Sorc3r3r
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(04-06-2017, 12:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Agent Unknown

Also, I certainly didn't send my letters to Russia last week to promote "good feelings." I sent my letters to Putin and government officials last week (futile though it may be ultimately) begging them to consider cutting my brothers and sisters there a break not out of good feelings but because 175,000 human beings are in imminent danger of being treated like their ancestors who were shipped off to Siberia for the same reason in the 1950s. This is all because the Orthodox Church knows we are gaining ground which scares them and they will get in bed with Putin gladly just to keep their own skins and their position just as sadly the Pope and the majority of the Catholic Church and other major churches got in bed with Hitler in Europe and openly supported him in WW II while 6 million Jews were sent off to the camps along with the Witnesses, Romani, Homosexuals and the disabled. That's one of the of the key historical reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to get involved in politics, it's not just imitation of Jesus and the early Christians' refusal to involve themselves in politics in the first century, it's the obvious fact that collusion between religion and the state has resulted in endless human misery and genocide for countless centuries.


Bullshit.
Prove it.
Culex
Member
(04-06-2017, 12:16 PM)

Originally Posted by Sorc3r3r

Bullshit.
Prove it.

Well, there is some truth to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope
WillyFive
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(04-06-2017, 12:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sorc3r3r

Bullshit.
Prove it.

This is pretty common knowledge. Even the Watchtower supported Hitler publicly at the 1933 convention before he turned on them the next year (which was followed by, you guessed it, a letter writing campaign in 1934).
LimitedTimeGamer
Member
(04-06-2017, 12:32 PM)
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Being a witness myself, i hope dearly that this doesnt go through, i feel sorry for the people in russia, being picked on just for doing what they believe.

As im also a postie, i see a lot of Letters coming through per day to Russia. I work in a small part of Australia, and just yesterday, a Large tub of Mail was completly filled with letters to Russia. Some post offices in my area have had to order extra $2.95 stamps, to keep up with the demand.
Eric the Red
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(04-06-2017, 12:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by WillyFive

This is pretty common knowledge. Even the Watchtower supported Hitler publicly at the 1933 convention before he turned on them the next year (which was followed by, you guessed it, a letter writing campaign in 1934).

I thought they don't support any politicians, why would they up and support a demagogue from Germany? Sounds fishy.
AzureRonin
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(04-06-2017, 01:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Billy_Pilgrim

It began as a cult, as all religions do. JW's are in a cult, there's no two ways about it I'm afraid. Of course people who are in a cult do not recognise that they're in a cult until they leave the cult.

In this thread you have clear examples of people who are in a cult reacting with cult like responses to people pointing out they're in a cult.

"The JW's would never do X"
*Lists of examples of that exact thing happening*

Lol, I guess people just refuse to understand what they don't know. Its far from a cult. You can leave any time. Research and thinking about your beliefs is encouraged. You get wacky people in the religion just like every other religion, people that take it to the extreme. In reality it's about balance. You don't even get baptized automatically. Everyone needs to make a personal decision in regards.
Billy_Pilgrim
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(04-06-2017, 01:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by AzureRonin

Lol, I guess people just refuse to understand what they don't know. Its far from a cult. You can leave any time. Research and thinking about your beliefs is encouraged. You get wacky people in the religion just like every other religion, people that take it to the extreme. In reality it's about balance. You don't even get baptized automatically. Everyone needs to make a personal decision in regards.

When leaving means cutting off your family, it is a cult. When you're forced to abstain from normal human relations and society, it is a cult. When you pay a tithe, it's a cult.

Do you deny that this was the focus of the conference last year?

I'm actually fairly well read on JWs and various other wacky denominations. I find it quite interesting tbf.
Damage Inc
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(04-06-2017, 02:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Billy_Pilgrim

When leaving means cutting off your family, it is a cult. When you're forced to abstain from normal human relations and society, it is a cult. When you pay a tithe, it's a cult.

Do you deny that this was the focus of the conference last year?

I'm actually fairly well read on JWs and various other wacky denominations. I find it quite interesting tbf.

We don't abstain from normal human relations and society (though that is a very broad sentence), we don't pay a tithe either..

You sure you are well read enough?
Last edited by Damage Inc; 04-06-2017 at 02:08 PM.
RefigeKru
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(04-06-2017, 02:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

They believe 144,000 make it into heaven (those who are celibate and adhere to the strictest form of JW worship), but the rest of those who have true faith will enter paradise after armaggedon.

Also they are no more a cult than Catholics. Nothing they believe makes them a cult. Misuse of the term is dangerous.

Well, the way my grandmother believed in them made it feel like a cult to me. On her deathbed they wouldn't let our family near her since we were not believers, until a day when she tells us to bring the whole family just so she could curse us and give away everything to the Jehova's witnesses instead.

Certainly felt like a cult when my grandmother would respond in scripture, felt like a cult the way they all dressed the same way. I remember some Jehova's witnesses knocking on my door once after my grandmother's death, they asked if anyone in my family was religious and I told them of her though she had passed and their eyes lit up, smiled and asked me if I wanted to go to heaven with her.

Always felt like a cult to me.
Billy_Pilgrim
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(04-06-2017, 02:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Damage Inc

We don't abstain from normal human relations and society (though that is a very broad sentence), we don't pay a tithe either..

You sure you are well read enough?


You do pay a tithe, just in a different way.

https://jwvictims.org/2015/06/16/jeh...n-for-support/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHGRs2bcybs

And you do abstain from normal human relations and social interactions. I see you're avoiding discussing the conference last year, which was specifically about this issue.
Last edited by Billy_Pilgrim; 04-06-2017 at 02:16 PM.
Arkeband
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(04-06-2017, 02:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronology

Witnesses are no more of a cult than Catholics or any other sect of Christianity. I believe the primary thing that sets them apart is their attempt to actually adhere to their interpretation of the Bible.

When it gets down to the distinction between a cult and a religion, it gets shady. Christianity had the benefit of being spread around a couple thousand years ago, when populaces were barely literate and easy to control. JW is a modern religion, created in the late 1800's, when people were more than capable of knowing better.

"The difference between a religion and a cult: In a cult, the founder knows it's bullshit. In a religion, that person is dead."

So yes, technically, it's a religion, but up until very recently, it was a cult. It "graduated", so to speak.

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