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Primethius
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Chairman Yang

I think Sunni Islam is one of the real, underlying causes. I mean, what else would it be? It's not poverty or inequality--plenty of the worst religious radicals are wealthy and well-connected. It's not solely Western imperialism--China, India, and non-Muslim Africa were all royally screwed but don't have the same level of religious oppression. It's not education--this problem has been happening in liberal universities (and on the flipside, barely happens in non-Muslim poorly-educated places around the world).

I don't think it's a stretch to think that an ideology that prescribes death for blasphemers or apostates ends up killing lots of perceived blasphemers and apostates.

Islam didn't have to be this way (and Saudi Arabian style Wahhabism is a big reason it became this way), but the problem is real and getting worse.

I think you misunderstand my point. Even if you replace Islam here with another religion, the cutural makeup of Pakistan, especially in certain govern-less areas is quite extreme in practice. The religion is often used as a convenient excuse that masks underlying cultutral issues or just disgusting practices and beliefs.

There's areas within the country that take Christianity and distort beliefs in much of the same way to serve ulterior, non-religious beliefs but that's not reflective of the religion but a deeper underlying issue.

I mean, so much of Pakistans various societies attempt to add validitiy to their practices via religion. And that in itself is a cause of a lot of inner-cultural conflict. There have been dudes who have tried to use religion to justify selling off kids to sex traffickers and the like. They prey on the uneducated, and religion is just that extra tool in the arsenal to help them to do so.

You could take it out but I don't think it would remotely come close to solving the problem.

Edit: For example, when I was a kid in Peshawar, our neighbors went out and killed another guy because he had cut them off in traffic. They threw a celebration for having killed him and invited my dad alongside most of the neighborhood. Their justification for the murder was religion but we all know that's just a mask. And a lot of that happens in Pakistan. Way too much.
Last edited by Primethius; 04-21-2017 at 01:33 AM.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 01:21 AM)

Originally Posted by see5harp

Everybody here knows how I am using the word. To denounce obvious radicals who do not represent the entire people of Pakistan. It's not vague.

I hope that's the case because you said "people in that country".
AcademicSaucer
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:22 AM)
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And this wasnt ISIS , Al Qaeda or Boko Haram. University students man, Im really sorry for the religious minorities and atheists living in muslim majority countries
crazy monkey
holds a masters in liberal arts
(04-21-2017, 01:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by Chairman Yang

Here's my problem with Imran Khan's statement: he only objects to the killing based on the fact that the student didn't actually commit blasphemy. What if he had committed blasphemy? Would it have been okay to kill him then? (The apparent answer according to Pakistani society is "yes", by the way.)

I agree. That was a bad statement.
see5harp
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:25 AM)

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Tone down your elitism and ethnocentric warped myopic thinking. You're downright offensive.

This goes for some others in this thread as well.

I admit that I'm a snob and elitist but I honestly don't think it's ethnocentric to look down or judge people who murder in the name of religion. Its not like I'm clowning them for not being fans of Radiohead or organ meat.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by see5harp

Everybody here knows how I am using the word. To denounce obvious radicals who do not represent the entire people of Pakistan. It's not vague.

And yet you can't divorce the usage of the word from the framework that it depends on. That was my point.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 01:32 AM)

Originally Posted by see5harp

I admit that I'm a snob and elitist but I honestly don't think it's ethnocentric to look down or judge people who murder in the name of religion. Its not like I'm clowning them for not being fans of Radiohead or organ meat.

Just because you identify yourself as such doesn't mean it's an alright thing to do. You can judge the murderers all you want. Just don't generalize the whole nation with the same kind of mindset.

And what they did was completely Anti-Islam. Don't put religion into cultural and mob mentality.

Originally Posted by Chairman Yang

Here's my problem with Imran Khan's statement: he only objects to the killing based on the fact that the student didn't actually commit blasphemy. What if he had committed blasphemy? Would it have been okay to kill him then? (The apparent answer according to Pakistani society is "yes", by the way.)

If he did commit blasphemy then he would have taken them to judicial court which is the sensible thing to do... one of the bodyguards of the governer of Punjab murdered the governer for blasphemy... dude was hung after 2 years but was given a standing ovation of being a martyr by the extremist crowd. One rare instance if the law working because the man killed was an elite (personally I don't agree with such a thing as blasphemy because the prophet himself would forgive people who wronged him and yet in the accounts of Hadiths you have other companions of the prophet murdering blasphemers in his name). I don't know why you're putting words in my mouth or think what Pakistanis think. I don't agree with you AT ALL.

Unless everyone was an indoctrinated villager then I would agree with you. But right now, you're not helping this case.

Originally Posted by AcademicSaucer

And this wasnt ISIS , Al Qaeda or Boko Haram. University students man, Im really sorry for the religious minorities and atheists living in muslim majority countries

And yet you're dismissive of the persecution of Muslims living in the Palestine, Kashmir, Burma, China and even the west to some extent. This kind of selective thinking helps no one. And fuck all those murderous institutions you named... they are as far from being Islamic let alone human.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 01:51 AM.
Garrett Hawke
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:52 AM)
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I seriously recommend anyone who still thinks that these despeciable acts are an exclusively Muslim phenomenon read about the current drug war in the Philippines. There have been over 2,000 extrajudicial killings in the Philippines in the last year alone - their state religion is Catholicism.

Radicalisation happens regardless of the religion. Religion plays a part, but it's not just Islam - it's all of them that include any kind of judgement of others.

RIP to the victim, this is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 01:55 AM)

Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

I seriously recommend anyone who still thinks that these despeciable acts are an exclusively Muslim phenomenon read about the current drug war in the Philippines. There have been over 2,000 extrajudicial killings in the Philippines in the last year alone - their state religion is Catholicism.

Radicalisation happens regardless of the religion. Religion plays a part, but it's not just Islam - it's all of them that include any kind of judgement of others.

RIP to the victim, this is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable.

Thank you.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

I seriously recommend anyone who still thinks that these despeciable acts are an exclusively Muslim phenomenon read about the current drug war in the Philippines. There have been over 2,000 extrajudicial killings in the Philippines in the last year alone - their state religion is Catholicism.

Radicalisation happens regardless of the religion. Religion plays a part, but it's not just Islam - it's all of them that include any kind of judgement of others.

RIP to the victim, this is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable.

Has anyone in the thread said this?
Garrett Hawke
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cocaloch

Has anyone in the thread said this?

A lot of people itt seem to be saying that this "vigilante" culture only develops in predominantly Muslim communities, which isn't true.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 01:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

A lot of people itt seem to be saying that this "vigilante" culture only develops in predominantly Muslim communities, which isn't true.

Which posts?
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:00 AM)

Originally Posted by Cocaloch

Which posts?

Really? Page 1 is a fantastic indication.
see5harp
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:01 AM)

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Just because you identify yourself as such doesn't mean it's an alright thing to do. You can judge the murderers all you want. Just don't generalize the whole nation with the same kind of mindset.

And what they did was completely Anti-Islam. Don't put religion into cultural and mob mentality.

I never once did that. When I mentioned "this country" I was referring to the USA when I earlier referred to people waiting in line on Black Friday as savages. The Catholics in the phillippines selling anti gay exorcisms and voodoo necklaces can all get it too. im not about singling out Islam as like the only bad ones. White supremacists do it in the name of religion too and I hardly think many here have much sympathy for those country dimwits.
Jumeira
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:03 AM)
Tragic, more infuriating is the Pakistanis that deny and deflect this type of barbarism that is prevalent in thier societies.

Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

I seriously recommend anyone who still thinks that these despeciable acts are an exclusively Muslim phenomenon read about the current drug war in the Philippines. There have been over 2,000 extrajudicial killings in the Philippines in the last year alone - their state religion is Catholicism.

Radicalisation happens regardless of the religion. Religion plays a part, but it's not just Islam - it's all of them that include any kind of judgement of others.

RIP to the victim, this is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable.


Yeah, its common in regions with poor security and poor enforcement of human rights, a Muslim man was dragged and beaten to death in India because a mob Hindus claimed he had stored some beef in house for consumption (turned out it was Goat).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...y_to_clipboard

Mob mentality is quite powerful and snowballs quickly, these killers, in this case will be in for a tough time based on religious judgement for murder, i do hope they get the book thrown at them.
Last edited by Jumeira; 04-21-2017 at 02:06 AM.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
(04-21-2017, 02:04 AM)
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Its not always religion. Any ideology that people hold up as the only truth, and worth murdering over, is awful.

But since communism is dead... it's usually religion.
Cocaloch
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(04-21-2017, 02:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

Really? Page 1 is a fantastic indication.

I read through it earlier and I didn't see anything like that. I certainly saw people going too far with claiming causality, but that's fundamentally different than suggesting that only Islam leads to vigilantism. I've very willing to read if you have an example though.
Zapages
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:06 AM)
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Seriously this is not common at all! Much like the the folks here, everyone in Pakistan is appalled as to what happened. :|

So please trying to label like this is common thing in Pakistan. It really is not!
Garrett Hawke
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jumeira

Yeah, its common in regions with poor security and poor enforcement of human rights, a Muslim man was dragged and beaten to death in India because a mob Hindus claimed he had stored some beef in house for consumption (turned out it was Goat).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...y_to_clipboard

Mob mentality is quite powerful and snowballs quickly, these killers, in this case will be in for a tough time based on religious judgement for murder, i do hope they get the book thrown at them.

this is the crux of it imo.

RIP to that victim.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Each thing is the same with itself and different from another; D = D.
(04-21-2017, 02:08 AM)
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Religious extremism is one of the worst things ever to disgrace this planet

So much life lost in the name of faith
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:10 AM)

Originally Posted by see5harp

I never once did that. When I mentioned "this country" I was referring to the USA when I earlier referred to people waiting in line on Black Friday as savages. The Catholics in the phillippines selling anti gay exorcisms and voodoo necklaces can all get it too. im not about singling out Islam as like the only bad ones. White supremacists do it in the name of religion too and I hardly think many here have much sympathy for those country dimwits.

Alright, I apologize in that scenario. I'm on the same boat as you. I hate dimwits everywhere regardless of nationality.

Originally Posted by Cocaloch

I read through it earlier and I didn't see anything like that. I certainly saw people going too far with claiming causality, but that's fundamentally different than suggesting that only Islam leads to vigilantism. I've very willing to read if you have an example though.

When people start calling "religion a cancer" while probably having their own belief system it's not hard to assume that people are insidiously giving the nod to Muslims being a problem in accordance to this thread (and some are probably being honest which still sets us in an us versus them camp). You're causality ties in with subtlety. Somethings don't need to be said to be understood.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 02:16 AM.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

When people start calling "religion a cancer" while probably having their own belief system it's not hard to assume that people are insidiously giving the nod to Muslims being a problem in accordance to this thread (and some are probably being honest which still sets us in an us versus them camp). You're causality ties in with subtlety. Somethings don't need to be said to be understood.

I don't think anyone should call religion a cancer. That doesn't mean that other poster should misrepresent peoples' positions. I highly doubt anyone in this thread actually believes on Islam produces vigilantism. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them believes it, as an ideal type, is more likely to do so than other belief systems though.

I agree people certainly took it much too far though. Yet, I have a feeling you're overestimating the number of people that are making these claims that are against Muslims in particular. A lot of them are probably coming at this from a secular perspective.
Sesha
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Simply Sami

https://www.dawn.com/news/1327745

I actually saw this the other day.

The death penalty for blasphemy law needs to go. It encourages violent, unhinged and bloodthirsty individuals carte to murder whoever they want based on no evidence whatsoever. Getting rid of it won't prevent all such murders, but it's a start. I realize it's probably easier said than done.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:28 AM)

Originally Posted by Cocaloch

I don't think anyone should call religion a cancer. That doesn't mean that other poster should misrepresent peoples' positions. I agree people certainly took it much too far though. Yet, I have a feeling you're overestimating the number of people that are making these claims that are against Muslims in particular. A lot of them are probably coming at this from a secular perspective.

If only people actually talk to someone who has actual experience living in that country. The only Pakistanis I see here moved away in the 1970's or Early 2000's and sound bitter. One sounds like he's a pathan from Peshawar and the other is on some smear campaign against Imran Khan. I go back every 2-3 years and have to literally slam this in some people's brains there that Pakistan was made in the name of secularism.

And things aren't as bad as everyone claims. Isolated incidents happen everywhere. You're probably thinking I'm overestimating which you have every right to claim but it's out of assumption in reality that people aren't always going to be open about their agendas. Hopefully, I wish you're correct and I am wrong.
Cocaloch
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(04-21-2017, 02:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

If only people actually talk to someone who has actual experience living in that country. The only Pakistanis I see here moved away in the 1970's or Early 2000's and sound bitter. One sounds like he's a pathan from Peshawar and the other is on some smear campaign against Imran Khan. I go back every 2-3 years and have to literally slam this in some people's brains there that Pakistan was made in the name of secularism.

And things aren't as bad as everyone claims. Isolated incidents happen everywhere. You're probably thinking I'm overestimating which you have every right to claim but it's out of assumption in reality that people aren't always going to be open about their agendas. Hopefully, I wish you're correct and I am wrong.

I mean I certainly think there are a lot of people that do believe things like that out there. I just have a feeling GAF isn't where they congregate. GAF's community seems relatively more bent towards "New Atheism" than Islamophobia. The abrasiveness of the former is bad, but it's certainly much better than the hate and xenophobia of the later.
AcademicSaucer
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(04-21-2017, 02:34 AM)
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So Islam isnt a factor? So being a muslim living in a majority muslim country with the death penalty for blasphemy has no relation with killing someone for blasphemy?
Last edited by AcademicSaucer; 04-21-2017 at 02:39 AM.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by AcademicSaucer

So Islam isnt a factor? So being a muslim living in a majority muslim country with blasphemy laws has no relation with killing someone for blasphemy?

The question is if something in particular about Islam was at play here because what this line of thinking tends to lead to for people is essentializing arguments about how Islam is bad.

Obviously you can't divorce a religion from its local, social, political, and cultural contexts, but by the same turn you also can't isolate it as a factor.

There is value in understanding that. Yet, it is too often used as a way to say that Islam itself is somehow bad and that both doesn't hold and fuels some really negative sentiments in the West.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
(04-21-2017, 02:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by AcademicSaucer

So Islam isnt a factor? So being a muslim living in a majority muslim country with blasphemy laws has no relation with killing someone for blasphemy?

Indeed. Because in some other countries, people kill people for various reasons. QED /s
Garrett Hawke
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(04-21-2017, 02:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

Indeed. Because in some other countries, people kill people for various reasons. QED /s

This is really reductive. The common elements in countries where many extrajudicial killings happen are 1) a religion 2) poverty 3) lack of enforcement of human rights.

There is probably an argument to be made about how these societies got that way, but it would probably involve world wars and foreign governments as much as radicalised religions.

None of this makes this situation any less shitty though and I don't want to discuss it any further because I don't want to even appear to be defending something so abhorrent.
gdt
blow in her face and
she'll follow you anywhere
(04-21-2017, 02:44 AM)
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I don't know what we can do about things like this....

Like, an entire group of people got together and murdered someone in a public place over religion...in 2017. Like....I can't wrap my brain around this. I don't understand.
AcademicSaucer
Member
(04-21-2017, 02:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

Indeed. Because in some other countries, people kill people for various reasons. QED /s

But this thread is about a very specific act , the murder of a person by a mob that thought he was a blasphemer, this murder happened in a majority muslim country where there are laws that say that the punishment for blasphemy is death and said laws are derived from the religion.
LordKasual
Banned
(04-21-2017, 02:54 AM)

Originally Posted by EGM1966

Can we stop with this notion? Yes people can make anything a cause for murder but as the statistics show from many Western countries the less patriotism/region engenders a culture where this kind of act is acceptable the less it happens.

People don't just maintain steady rates of murder and find any justification for it, the less justification there is and the more they're raised in a culture that actively negates such act the less you see such acts.

There's no way to reduce incidence to zero but you're arguing as if there's some absolute tendency to violence as a percentage of population which simply isn't true.

And let's not use US as some barometer as the statistics well show how, due to prevalence of gun ownership and other aspects of the countries culture, it has a high incidence of gun related deaths vs other Western nations.

Pakistan still has a law that allows people to be killed for blasphemy and as historic precedence shows that (along with the other confirming aspects of the religious culture) increases the incidence of people acting on this on their own.

It's about degrees and percentages of incidence and having such outdated religious laws makes things objectively worse and removing them would improve the situation as it has in other countries that have already progressed through repealing such laws and removing them from their culture.

The point is what you teach and how you teach it and I agree with you on your points in US recently - but again the right response here isn't to see it as some inevitable situation, it's to push, push, push for reform as has been proven elsewhere to reduce the likelihood of cultural acceptance and individual psychology colliding to deadly effect.

I don't see it as some inevitable thing. Although I do currently believe that such acts of tribal violence are simply inherent in our genetics to a degree.

I'm not really commenting on whether or not we should sit back and let it happen. I was just pointing out that the issue really has little to do with religion...or rather, it isn't something exclusive to religion. I'm saying that religion is just a vector, admittedly a tried and true one, but that's all it is. All you need is an emotional and convincing argument. In its absence, people will just find some other tribal affiliation that they can be convinced to kill and die for. A long time ago, leaders simply learned that the fear of death and promise of an afterlife is the most convincing and emotional argument of them all, because death applies to everyone.

My point here is that placing the finger on religion is not going to solve the greater issue. Yeah, sure, it's obviously at the root because the laws in question are religious ones. But these people are so extreme in their beliefs that it overrides their basic humanity. I no longer believe that simply fingering their religion is going to make them change their minds. But what it DOES do for certain is create another tribal situation, Islam vs. everyone else, and that just makes the initial problem even harder to solve.

Humans are just shitty creatures.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
(04-21-2017, 03:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by AcademicSaucer

But this thread is about a very specific act , the murder of a person by a mob that thought he was a blasphemer, this murder happened in a majority muslim country where there are laws that say that the punishment for blasphemy is death and said laws are derived from the religion.

....Yes I know. /s means sarcasm lol
AcademicSaucer
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

....Yes I know. /s means sarcasm lol

I noticed that late, but I saw people seriously trying to make that argument in this thread
SlimySnake
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:31 AM)

Originally Posted by Gaminar

If only people actually talk to someone who has actual experience living in that country. The only Pakistanis I see here moved away in the 1970's or Early 2000's and sound bitter. One sounds like he's a pathan from Peshawar and the other is on some smear campaign against Imran Khan. I go back every 2-3 years and have to literally slam this in some people's brains there that Pakistan was made in the name of secularism.

And things aren't as bad as everyone claims. Isolated incidents happen everywhere. You're probably thinking I'm overestimating which you have every right to claim but it's out of assumption in reality that people aren't always going to be open about their agendas. Hopefully, I wish you're correct and I am wrong.

This is a terrible post. Smear campaign? The guy himself said he wasn't guilty of blasphemy and thus shouldn't have been killed. How fucking absurd is that?

And no, these kind of incidents don't just happen everywhere. Isolated or not, 60 incidents in 27 years is still pretty insane. There were a few recently where a mob attacked and killed a pregnant Christian woman for allegedly insulting the quran.

And Pakistan is literally the only country in the world made in the name of Islam. It's literally called the Islamic republic of Pakistan.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by SlimySnake

This is a terrible post. Smear campaign? The guy himself said he wasn't guilty of blasphemy and thus shouldn't have been killed. How fucking absurd is that?

And no, these kind of incidents don't just happen everywhere. Isolated or not, 60 incidents in 27 years is still pretty insane. There were a few recently where a mob attacked and killed a pregnant Christian woman for allegedly insulting the quran.

And Pakistan is literally the only country in the world made in the name of Islam. It's literally called the Islamic republic of Pakistan.

It was relatively secular until the 80s. He was right. It wasn't really made in the name of Islam either, that's a really simplistic understanding of the Partition.
Zapages
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(04-21-2017, 04:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by SlimySnake

This is a terrible post. Smear campaign? The guy himself said he wasn't guilty of blasphemy and thus shouldn't have been killed. How fucking absurd is that?

And no, these kind of incidents don't just happen everywhere. Isolated or not, 60 incidents in 27 years is still pretty insane. There were a few recently where a mob attacked and killed a pregnant Christian woman for allegedly insulting the quran.

And Pakistan is literally the only country in the world made in the name of Islam. It's literally called the Islamic republic of Pakistan.

happened later on in the early or mid 1950s...

Seriously think about the population size of Pakistan and the area that they live in... Its very congested region.

Also take a look at what other Pakistanis are saying about this:

http://gupshup.org/gs/pakistan-and-w...y-charges.html

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...emy-in-Sialkot

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...asphemy-police

Pakistan was made for equal representation/rights for the Muslim population in the governance of the in the government.

Jinnah feared that if Muslim were to become a minority then their voices would not be heard in an larger India where the major power players were Hindus and Sikhs.

Jinnah presented Congress, which was basically Nehru and his friends points where they/minorities like Muslims will have more say in the government. Nehru rejected that and a lot more things occurred at the same time which lead to creation of modern day Pakistan and India. (Major simplifications here)....

Also technically East Pakistan was supposed to be separate country, but British refused that too... Eventually we know what happened. :|
Last edited by Zapages; 04-21-2017 at 04:48 AM.
Sho_Nuff82
(04-21-2017, 04:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by womfalcs3

The article cites 65 deaths since 1990. It's a sad story, but far from commonplace.

I believe that number as much as the "official" stats on lynching in the 1920s US.
Obliterator
cousin investments
(04-21-2017, 04:43 AM)
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Horrific shit.

And equally disturbing that by law people can be killed for saying something opposed to a religion. That's some medieval era practices.
MikeMyers
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(04-21-2017, 04:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cocaloch

It was relatively secular until the 80s. He was right. It wasn't really made in the name of Islam either, that's a really simplistic understanding of the Partition.

What was the reasoning? Wasn't it made for the Muslim minorities in Punjab and Bengal?
Zapages
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by MikeMyers

What was the reasoning? Wasn't it made for the Muslim minorities in Punjab and Bengal?

read my post above... I will post more a bit tomorrow if I have time and the thread is still active.
keuja
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(04-21-2017, 04:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

I seriously recommend anyone who still thinks that these despeciable acts are an exclusively Muslim phenomenon read about the current drug war in the Philippines. There have been over 2,000 extrajudicial killings in the Philippines in the last year alone - their state religion is Catholicism.

Radicalisation happens regardless of the religion. Religion plays a part, but it's not just Islam - it's all of them that include any kind of judgement of others.

RIP to the victim, this is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable.

Not a good comparison. They don't do in the name of their religion. In fact Duterte is more anti religion than any of the previous President.
SlimySnake
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:51 AM)

Originally Posted by Cocaloch

It was relatively secular until the 80s. He was right. It wasn't really made in the name of Islam either, that's a really simplistic understanding of the Partition.

Originally Posted by Zapages

happened later on in the early or mid 1950s...

Seriously think about the population size of Pakistan and the area that they live in... Its very congested region.

Also take a look at what other Pakistanis are saying about this:

http://gupshup.org/gs/pakistan-and-w...y-charges.html

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...emy-in-Sialkot

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...asphemy-police

Come on guys, Pakistan was made as a country for Muslims. That was the entire reason India was split in two countries. It remains to this day the only Muslim country to be created just for Muslims.

I am sure Pakistanis are outraged. I just don't hear people asking to even get rid of this law. Pakistan and Muslims in general need to lighten up and stop getting so upset every time someone insults their religion.
Sunster
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(04-21-2017, 04:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by keuja

Not a good comparison. They don't do in the name of their religion. In fact Duterte is more anti religion than any of the previous President.

How about the Buddhists in Myanmar waging genocide against the Muslim minority?

not defending any religion here. just giving you a better example for the sake of the conversation.
Last edited by Sunster; 04-21-2017 at 04:55 AM.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by MikeMyers

What was the reasoning? Wasn't it made for the Muslim minorities in Punjab and Bengal?


The Partition, along with everything surrounding it, is one of, if not the, most complicated events in the sub continent's history. At some level it was indeed made for Subcontinental Muslims. That isn't to say it was made to be an Islamic state for them. I'm not a historian of Modern India so I don't want to tread on toes by going further here, but I would recommend reading about the partition if you are actually interested.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Come on guys, Pakistan was made as a country for Muslims. That was the entire reason India was split in two countries.

Again this is literally the most simplistic narrative of the partition possible. It was made for Muslim people yes.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

It remains to this day the only Muslim country to be created just for Muslims.

I mean what does this mean, it's a fairly bizarre category that doesn't pay heed to the realities of decolonization and the federalist movements. What's going on here is far more complicated than you're making it out to be. Would you say India is a country made for Hindus? If you would nuance that you should probably nuance Pakistan's creation.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Pakistan and Muslims in general need to lighten up and stop getting so upset every time someone insults their religion.

Why do you care? Let people be upset if they want to be, I mean it's not like their agitation comes out of nowhere either. There are pretty salient historical reasons for it on top of the fact that we clearly are living in an age of intense Islamophobia in the West.
Last edited by Cocaloch; 04-21-2017 at 05:08 AM.
RM8
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:05 AM)
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It's never a nice feeling being reminded that a lot of humans are pure shit, and that it'll always be the case.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
(04-21-2017, 05:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zapages

happened later on in the early or mid 1950s...

Seriously think about the population size of Pakistan and the area that they live in... Its very congested region.

Also take a look at what other Pakistanis are saying about this:

http://gupshup.org/gs/pakistan-and-w...y-charges.html

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...emy-in-Sialkot

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...asphemy-police

I read those links and came away even more depressed about the future of Pakistan and Islam.

I see lots of people commenting on how religion has completely dominated their society and that coming out as atheists would threaten their lives. Islam in Pakistan has become a totalitarian ideology, enforced not by the state, but ordinary people.
MikeMyers
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(04-21-2017, 05:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cocaloch

The Partition, along with everything surrounding it, is one of, if not the, most complicated events in the sub continent's history. At some level it was indeed made for Subcontinental Muslims. That isn't to say it was made to be an Islamic state for them. I'm not a historian of Modern India so I don't want to tread on toes by going further here, but I would recommend reading about the partition if you are actually interested.

Yeah it looks like the reasoning is more complicated than it seems, even the real reasoning for Britian leaving the subcontinent has been questioned too.

In that Bollywood thread I posted earlier how apparently a lot of present day Pakistan was actually carved out of what was Afghanistan (Durand Line). So there's another elephant in the room there.
nynt9
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(04-21-2017, 05:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

1. To all those calling Islam as the basis of the problem, the Quran has nothing of blasphemy. It's the Hadiths that can be misinterpreted which institutions like Daesh are also using everyday to kill every Muslim as well. And there are people who will always use it out of context to get what they want.

Originally Posted by Gaminar

And what they did was completely Anti-Islam. Don't put religion into cultural and mob mentality.

Nah dude. Stop being an apologist. It's not completely anti-Islam.

33:57-61:

57. Verily, those who annoy Allah and His Messenger Allah has cursed them in this world, and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating torment.

58. And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.

59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

60. If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease (evil desire for adultery, etc.), and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah, cease not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbours but a little while.

61. Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter.

9:123:

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

There is plenty justification in Quran without looking at hadiths to justify violence against those who blaspheme or do not act in accordance of the religion. It's one of the main reasons why I left it and why I do not talk about my lack of faith in the presence of other Muslims in my country, because oftentimes it has resulted in them getting aggressive with me. I've been threatened before for it, and I've seen friends get assaulted.

You can claim that there are more white-washed translations of these verses (though I'd say that these translations are pretty accurate to the original reading IMO) and that the context makes them better (I disagree, having read it all), but you can't claim that it's completely beyond the religion.
Heshinsi
"playing" dumb? unpossible
(04-21-2017, 05:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Come on guys, Pakistan was made as a country for Muslims. That was the entire reason India was split in two countries. It remains to this day the only Muslim country to be created just for Muslims.

I am sure Pakistanis are outraged. I just don't hear people asking to even get rid of this law. Pakistan and Muslims in general need to lighten up and stop getting so upset every time someone insults their religion.

It ain't just Muslims and it's not just Pakistan. They're lynching Muslims in India over cows. I'm pretty sure it isn't about animal welfare that muslim men are being killed by mobs in India. So if Muslims are lynching people, and Hindus are lynching people, what the hell is in the water in that part of the world?

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