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SlimySnake
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cocaloch

The Partition, along with everything surrounding it, is one of, if not the, most complicated events in the sub continent's history. At some level it was indeed made for Subcontinental Muslims. That isn't to say it was made to be an Islamic state for them. I'm not a historian of Modern India so I don't want to tread on toes by going further here, but I would recommend reading about the partition if you are actually interested.

Again this is literally the most simplistic narrative of the partition possible. It was made for Muslim people yes.

I mean what does this mean, it's a fairly bizarre category that doesn't pay heed to the realities of decolonization and the federalist movements. What's going on here is far more complicated than you're making it out to be. Would you say India is a country made for Hindus? If you would nuance that you should probably nuance Pakistan's creation.

Why do you care? Let people be upset if they want to be, I mean it's not like their agitation comes out of nowhere either. There are pretty salient historical reasons for it on top of the fact that we clearly are living in an age of intense Islamophobia in the West.

Why do I care? Why do I care that innocent civilians are being brutally murdered on streets in the name of Islam? For supposedly insulting the quran? And btw there is ZERO reason for getting agitated or upset over blasphemy or drawing the prophet. i dont care if you live in the west or in Pakistan, we live in the 21st century and no excuse for violence in the name of islam. Maybe if muslims (especially in western countries) stopped protesting every time a western cartoonish drew Mohammed, we wouldnt be seen as a threat to the western civilization.

And no, it IS as simple as I am making it out to be. India was supposed to be granted independence and muslims and hindu leaders all fought for it together, until the late 30s early 40s when muslim leaders changed their minds and decided they wanted their own nation of muslims. I would never say india is a country for hindus because they didnt ask for a hindu only country. in fact, there are more muslims living in India than in Pakistan. They have a huge Sikh and Christian population too.

Israel is a pretty secular country right now but it was created for jews. Aside from Pakistan, it is the only country created in the name of religion. you can argue semantics and whether or not it is a simplistic version of the whole truth, but Pakistan was created for Muslims just as Israel was created for the jews.
AcademicSaucer
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by nynt9

Nah dude. Stop being an apologist. It's not completely anti-Islam.

33:57-61:



9:123:



There is plenty justification in Quran without looking at hadiths to justify violence against those who blaspheme or do not act in accordance of the religion. It's one of the main reasons why I left it and why I do not talk about my lack of faith in the presence of other Muslims in my country, because oftentimes it has resulted in them getting aggressive with me. I've been threatened before for it, and I've seen friends get assaulted.

You can claim that there are more white-washed translations of these verses (though I'd say that these translations are pretty accurate to the original reading IMO) and that the context makes them better (I disagree, having read it all), but you can't claim that it's completely beyond the religion.

Yeah, for example people say these kind of acts are made by extremists, but being an extremist doesnt automatically lead to violence, if you are an extreme adherent to a religion that hasnt expanded through violence and preaches asceticism and the seek of peace through self examination in silence, etc . no one has to worry about you doing something violent even if you are an extremist.

If we can draw a straight line between the Bible saying "Curse the man who sleeps with another man" andd other passages with christians showing anti-LGBT behaviours we also can draw a straight line between the Quran and acts of violence such as this one.
Last edited by AcademicSaucer; 04-21-2017 at 05:34 AM.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
(04-21-2017, 05:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Betty

No it's just a waste of time. Other than Buddhism it's all about making a select few powerful men even more powerful.

That's all it's ever been about.

Convince the masses their souls are in danger and that they must obey to save themselves no matter the price.

Well, and Hinduism.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
(04-21-2017, 05:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Heshinsi

It ain't just Muslims and it's not just Pakistan. They're lynching Muslims in India over cows. I'm pretty sure it isn't about animal welfare that muslim men are being killed by mobs in India. So if Muslims are lynching people, and Hindus are lynching people, what the hell is in the water in that part of the world?

I understand the urge for whataboutism, but would you rather be an atheist in India or Pakistan? What about a Christian? What about a Jewish person? What about an Ahmadi or Shia? You can answer if you want, but I really just want you to think honestly about it.
SlimySnake
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Heshinsi

It ain't just Muslims and it's not just Pakistan. They're lynching Muslims in India over cows. I'm pretty sure it isn't about animal welfare that muslim men are being killed by mobs in India. So if Muslims are lynching people, and Hindus are lynching people, what the hell is in the water in that part of the world?

lol i read about that the other day and the fact that you would even compare the two as if hindus have been doing this for decades is a bit disingenuous.

yes, public lynchings are a subcontinent cultural phenomenon but it happens way more often in Pakistan than in India.

Yes there are sectrearian tensions/riots in India, but do you want me to list the dozens of bombings in Ahmedi and Shi'te mosques in pakistan the last few years?
Heshinsi
"playing" dumb? unpossible
(04-21-2017, 05:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Chairman Yang

I understand the urge for whataboutism, but would you rather be an atheist in India or Pakistan? What about a Christian? What about a Jewish person? What about an Ahmadi or Shia? You can answer if you want, but I really just want you to think honestly about it.

India. Of course India. I'm just saying this lynching stuff seems to be cultural rather than being specifically religious. The Hindu riots against Sikhs and Muslims a few decades back show that groups there can be triggered by anything they feel justifies such mayhem. I absolutely can not stand the idiocracy on display in Pakistan. As I mentioned earlier, a few years back they did the exact same thing to two brother for what was assumed as theft by the mob. They did this in Ramadan, and they had over 100 people including children kill these two boys. They were innocent. If you are accused of blasphemy, they'll lynch you. If they think you stole, they'll lynch you. Is it religion that's driving them to murder like this?

^ Dude I know what they do against Ismaili and the ahmediya. My best friend is a Hazara, so I'm pretty versed in the terror they inflict on anyone they perceive as different.

I remember a few years back when the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia of all places, was saying how fucked up Pakistan was for some of things happening there. This was around the time they did that whole national prophet day, and people were threatening violence and death at anyone who dared to keep their shops open that day.
Last edited by Heshinsi; 04-21-2017 at 05:44 AM.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Why do I care? Why do I care that innocent civilians are being brutally murdered on streets in the name of Islam?

You're twisting my words so much there I have to read it as intentional. Go back and look at what I was responding to. You made a classic "just don't be offended point" in response to people being upset that their religion was uncritically essentialized . There really isn't a reason to make such a point usually unless the person making it is offended by someone taking offense.

Either way absolutely nothing I said in any way condones murdering people. Not only that I can't see how you could possibly think it did unless you chose to ignore the quote I was responding to.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Why do I care? Why do I care that innocent civilians are being brutally murdered on streets in the name of Islam? For supposedly insulting the quran? And btw there is ZERO reason for getting agitated or upset over blasphemy or drawing the prophet. i dont care if you live in the west or in Pakistan, we live in the 21st century and no excuse for violence in the name of islam. Maybe if muslims (especially in western countries) stopped protesting every time a western cartoonish drew Mohammed, we wouldnt be seen as a threat to the western civilization.

People can protest if they don't do anything violent. Why do you care? Why are you the arbiter of when people get to protest.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

And no, it IS as simple as I am making it out to be.

That's why the books written are the petition are literally one sentence long right? Look chances are if you're talking about something in history and you're making a point about how it is simple you are incorrect. Few things are. For instance

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

India .

One word in and you're already running into problems. Why is India a single unit under the British? What does that mean? What are the implications for their understandings of Nationalism. This is actually central to the entire event.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

India was supposed to be granted independence and muslims and hindu leaders all fought for it together, until the late 30s early 40s when muslim leaders changed their minds and decided they wanted their own nation of muslims.

I'm not going to go word by word to unpack this, but even this sentence has a lot of problems. Why? Supposed by who? Most importantly you completely managed to avoid the much deeper history of two nations theory, and the history of Hindu and Pakistani national ideas going back into the 19th century.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

I would never say india is a country for hindus because they didnt ask for a hindu only country.

And yet there were powerful Hindu nationalist movements essentially asking for this,along with the fact that the modern state of India, literally exactly as much as Pakistan, was made by the partition.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

They have a huge Sikh and Christian population too.

The issue was never every single person in the country is Hindu or Muslim. Pakistan has religious minorities, and had many more at the time of the partition.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Israel is a pretty secular country right now but it was created for jews. Aside from Pakistan, it is the only country created in the name of religion. you can argue semantics and whether or not it is a simplistic version of the whole truth, but Pakistan was created for Muslims just as Israel was created for the jews.

Well first off plenty of countries are essentially made for religion. Belgium and Northern Ireland are example off of the top of my head. Either way the fact that the country was made for those people doesn't mean that the country wasn't designed to be secular which was my point. I never argued that Pakistan wasn't made for Muslims, just that acting like that's all that was going on is simplistic to the point of absurdity. I'm also not sure how that's a semantic argument.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 06:14 AM)

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

This is a terrible post. Smear campaign? The guy himself said he wasn't guilty of blasphemy and thus shouldn't have been killed. How fucking absurd is that?

And no, these kind of incidents don't just happen everywhere. Isolated or not, 60 incidents in 27 years is still pretty insane. There were a few recently where a mob attacked and killed a pregnant Christian woman for allegedly insulting the quran.

And Pakistan is literally the only country in the world made in the name of Islam. It's literally called the Islamic republic of Pakistan.

Excuse me? Cut down on your use of the word "fuck" and please look a bit intelligible.

If you don't know what he meant then don't assume and make up a vindictive narrative in your own mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJzfUFq5XWs

Also, can you stop spreading misinformation and total ignorance?

Here's a speech by Muhammad Ali Jinnah a.k.a the Quaid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syjim9cmqWg

And this is the famous one for August 11, 1947...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0UQ6VoceXY

Text version here: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...mbly_1947.html

"You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed -- that has nothing to do with the business of the State." - Quaid e Azam

Now, what is this agenda you're on? If you're not Pakistani then stop spreading complete lies.

Originally Posted by nynt9

Nah dude. Stop being an apologist. It's not completely anti-Islam.

33:57-61:



9:123:



There is plenty justification in Quran without looking at hadiths to justify violence against those who blaspheme or do not act in accordance of the religion. It's one of the main reasons why I left it and why I do not talk about my lack of faith in the presence of other Muslims in my country, because oftentimes it has resulted in them getting aggressive with me. I've been threatened before for it, and I've seen friends get assaulted.

You can claim that there are more white-washed translations of these verses (though I'd say that these translations are pretty accurate to the original reading IMO) and that the context makes them better (I disagree, having read it all), but you can't claim that it's completely beyond the religion.

I like how all of these are contextually removed from events such as persecution, besieged cities and times of warfare. Again, most of those verses inciting violence; you will also find in the Torah and Bible as well. Why act like it's just meant for Islam or came from it? Since you were a former Muslim you would know this.

Besides that, you leaving Islam doesn't bother me to the least. You have your own life to live. The prophet and the Quran advocates forgiveness in every manner. But who am I to judge you in the first place. It's between you and god. Those aggressive people are a matter of the society and product you lived in. And although in the Hadith "an apostate" is marked to death, there is no such passage in the Quran that strays outside of context of the stories. Abrahamic God, Yahweh or Allah is the same by the way.

I could bring in the same argument for many religions in the world.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 06:35 AM.
SlimySnake
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

Excuse me?

Can you stop spreading misinformation and total ignorance?

Here's a speech by Muhammad Ali Jinnah a.k.a the Quaid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syjim9cmqWg

And this is the famous one for August 11, 1947...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0UQ6VoceXY

Text version here: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...mbly_1947.html

"You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed -- that has nothing to do with the business of the State." - Quaid e Azam

Now, what is this agenda you're on? If you're not Pakistani then stop spreading complete lies.

Lies? Misinformation? What are you on about? Do you disagree that Pakistan wasn't made for Muslims? If so, why split India in the first place?

And that's a nice speech. Jinnah was a nice guy who would be turning in his grave right now. The blasphemy laws go against this very speech and yet i don't see you or several other Pakistanis here asking to get rid of those laws that punish minorities and essentially takes away everyone's freedom of speech.

Instead we are stuck discussing obvious questions like who Pakistan was built for in the first place and laughable arguments about whether or not Pakistan once was or currently is a secular country... In a thread where they just brutally murdered a man for insulting Islam. Bastion of secular civilization people.
Cocaloch
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Instead we are stuck discussing obvious questions like who Pakistan was built for in the first place

No one disagreed with you here.

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

laughable arguments about whether or not Pakistan once was or currently is a secular country... In a thread where they just brutally murdered a man for insulting Islam. Bastion of secular civilization people.[

Was that really what the discussion was about? Why don't you go back and reread the thread. No one claimed this. But you did a good job putting words into people's mouths and not actually addressing points.
wisdom0wl
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:18 AM)
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Religion is one hell of a drug
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 07:19 AM)

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

Lies? Misinformation? What are you on about? Do you disagree that Pakistan wasn't made for Muslims? If so, why split India in the first place?

And that's a nice speech. Jinnah was a nice guy who would be turning in his grave right now. The blasphemy laws go against this very speech and yet i don't see you or several other Pakistanis here asking to get rid of those laws that punish minorities and essentially takes away everyone's freedom of speech.

Instead we are stuck discussing obvious questions like who Pakistan was built for in the first place and laughable arguments about whether or not Pakistan once was or currently is a secular country... In a thread where they just brutally murdered a man for insulting Islam. Bastion of secular civilization people.

Pakistan's roots were NOT... I repeat... NOT made on the principle of Islamic dominance. While at the same time, it was made to be able to avoid the persecution from Hindus in India as a majority theology and a daunting populous that made the Muslim community look like dwarfs. To which Indian Muslims are finally starting to go through as Hindu radicalism rises under Modi. It's too bad Pakistan has now become the exact embodiment of what it was trying to avoid. All this because the Quaid also passed away 2 years after the formation of Pakistan hence, the constitution of the country being hijacked from the get go.

If you want to see Pakistan's idea of secularism, it starts with the name itself, then the flag, it's provinces and the language we speak. Quite frankly, your argument at this point is embarrassing.

I mean damn, are you going to refute Jinnah's speech now? Guess you were right there as Jinnah's advisor, right. Please stop. You're reaching for straws.

Are you daft? The fact that I as a Pakistani am providing you facts and you choosing to refute them is borderline silly. I don't have to an apologist to you for Isis as wannabe Muslims just as how blasphemy law is something I don't even believe should exist. It was a political stance taken by the PPP during Bhutto's PM status and Zia Ul Haq's dictatorship. Pakistanis here have nothing to prove to you. You can build all the insidious narratives you want in your head at this point.

Yea, the point is to give you some historical context. Most of the people of Pakistan are just as angry because of this, and then there are others who completely believe it was done in justice of the faith which is highly anti-Islamic (since you don't like to catch up on hints of what side a person like I would be on). If you think any Pakistani here ON NEOGAF has to denounce something like a "murder" of a person should skew your biased point of view against us in the first place is quite frankly hilarious.

Originally Posted by Cocaloch

Was that really what the discussion was about? Why don't you go back and reread the thread. No one claimed this. But you did a good job putting words into people's mouths and not actually addressing points.

I just wish he/she would understand that arguing with extremists that kill on the name of blasphemy even without proof are nutjobs. You won't and can't come out alive. All it takes is one twisted imam's or cleric's fatwa and your life is over. It doesn't matter if you're the richest or the most powerful man in the world, you're dead. And this is the same fear all Muslims who are moderate go through. We have to deal with people and their constant criticism of denouncing the extremists in the west when the reality is they don't understand that on both fronts either side is crushing us to death.

Originally Posted by Heshinsi

I remember a few years back when the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia of all places, was saying how fucked up Pakistan was for some of things happening there. This was around the time they did that whole national prophet day, and people were threatening violence and death at anyone who dared to keep their shops open that day.

The wahabbi's of Al Saud shouldn't be talking bullshit because they're the main problem in the region. This extreme form of Islam came straight from their homeland and has migrated over to Pakistan, that's some powerful indoctrination happening since the 1970's. Who the hell do you think funded all the Madrasa's in Pakistan? Also, you seem to be a bit naive into thinking that the Hazara's in Baluchistan are exclusively persecuted by Muslims when Indian RAW is completely active in Pakistan to destabilize it and cause an overwhelming separatist sentiments within the local tribes.
Last edited by Gaminar; 04-21-2017 at 07:49 AM.
Morrigan Stark
Banned
(04-21-2017, 07:54 AM)

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Excuse me? Cut down on your use of the word "fuck" and please look a bit intelligible.

He said fuck like, once. Stop clutching your pearls.

I like how all of these are contextually removed from events such as persecution, besieged cities and times of warfare.

Ah, that makes it okay then /s

Again, most of those verses inciting violence; you will also find in the Torah and Bible as well.

Whataboutisms

And although in the Hadith "an apostate" is marked to death, there is no such passage in the Quran that strays outside of context of the stories.

That's still really really bad. Funny how you don't seem to realize that. The "context" is no excuse or justification.

Besides, are you saying all the hadiths are bullshit? Interesting.

Abrahamic God, Yahweh or Allah is the same by the way.

I could bring in the same argument for many religions in the world.

More whataboutisms

If the best defense for your faith is that other religions are "just as bad", colour me unimpressed.
Gaminar
Banned
(04-21-2017, 08:07 AM)

Originally Posted by Morrigan Stark

He said fuck like, once. Stop clutching your pearls.

How about you mind your own business? You can stop clutching your pearls over me clutching mine.

Ah, that makes it okay then /s

I guess it's ok for the west to go about the Islamic world and interfere in internal politics? Ah. Putting words in my mouth again... love it.

Whataboutisms

Perception.

That's still really really bad. Funny how you don't seem to realize that. The "context" is no excuse or justification.

Besides, are you saying all the hadiths are bullshit? Interesting.

Unless I said, I agree with the context and not follow the better alternative known as forgiveness and compassion... you as well have built a completely alternate reality in your mind. I choose to go with the better options over opinions as an example. This one of yours especially.

No, hadiths can be "wrong" as well. I guess if I call your beliefs bullshit as well, it makes me a real libertarian. Right?

More whataboutisms

Most Insightful with your vague analysis.

If the best defense for your faith is that other religions are "just as bad", colour me unimpressed.

Nice to be selective and choose to ignore all the good things that religions can teach as well. Any religion as a matter of fact.

Now stop being angry and bring a real conversation. I believe mods should close this thread because you people have no respect for Muslims or their beliefs and generalize us in the shadows of people like the Taliban or ISIS or these murderers.
Morrigan Stark
Banned
(04-21-2017, 08:24 AM)

Originally Posted by Gaminar

How about you mind your own business? You can stop clutching your pearls over me clutching mine.

There's no "mind your own business" on a public forum. I can definitely call out your nonsensical tone policing if I see it.

I guess it's ok for the west to go about the Islamic world and interfere in internal politics? Ah. Putting words in my mouth again... love it.

...What?

Perception.

...What? It's not perception, you literally wrote a whataboutism.

Unless I said, I agree with the context and not follow the better alternative known as forgiveness and compassion... you as well have built a completely alternate reality in your mind. I choose to go with the better options over opinions as an example. This one of yours especially.

????

Man, there's an irony there for sure. Religion's one hell of a drug.

No, hadiths can be "wrong" as well.

Okay.

I guess if I call your beliefs bullshit as well, it makes me a real libertarian. Right?

...What?

Most Insightful with your vague analysis.

???
What I wrote is the opposite of vague.

What are you even talking about? Seriously, most of this post is such nonsense, I can barely parse it. I hope English isn't your native language, because you write very confusing stuff. :|

Nice to be selective and choose to ignore all the good things that religions can teach as well. Any religion as a matter of fact.

There is literally nothing that religion can teach that cannot be taught without it.

Now stop being angry and bring a real conversation. I believe mods should close this thread because you people have no respect for Muslims or their beliefs and generalize us in the shadows of people like the Taliban or ISIS or these murderers.

Yeah, yeah, didn't take long before we got the defensiveness over Islam being criticized. It's funny how you decide to make it about Muslims being victimized (in a thread about a victim of violent, regressive Islam, no less), when I didn't mention Muslims once and only criticized scripture.

Ain't my fault your holy book is full of this stuff.
tpfkanep
Member
(04-21-2017, 08:33 AM)

Originally Posted by Steven Weinberg

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil that takes religion.

.
Isotropy
Banned
(04-21-2017, 08:38 AM)
Less than a dozen posts before we got the "but it's not religion!" shrieks.

Yes it is. It is fucking religion.

These texts contain poison - and without acknowledging that and working to counteract it, its power won't weaken. Responsible religious people will recognise and combat the darkness lurking in their belief systems, not sweep it under the rug so insanity like this happens.
azyless
Member
(04-21-2017, 08:43 AM)
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It must take a certain amount of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that deaths related to blasphemy or apostasy laws have absolutely nothing to do with religion.
Game-Biz
Member
(04-21-2017, 08:47 AM)
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Religion truly is poisonous. Sickening story.
1st Course
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:04 AM)
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Apparently there's​ is video floating around showing the students stepping over his dead body while shouting Allah Akbar. Horrible stuff.
Tecnniqe
Would die a thousand deaths just for one gun
(04-21-2017, 09:28 AM)
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Brainwashing is a problem.
KonradLaw
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:31 AM)
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I hope that Wajahat bastard will get successfully accused of blasphemy in the future too.
witchedwiz
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Chairman Yang

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/2...versity-shocks





Horrible story, especially because everyone seems complicit with this. Young, well-educated students, elderly religious conservatives, the government, the courts, the military, the intelligence services...radical Islam has become an integral part of Pakistan.

what he did counts as something a "well-educated student" would do?
lolwut?
Septic360
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by daviyoung

the Quran has some very juicy parts regarding blasphemers and what shall be done with them so it's not really the case of people spinning it for their own agendas

Please show us these 'juicy parts'
azyless
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Septic360

Please show us these 'juicy parts'

maybe :

The only punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is that they should be murdered, or crucified, or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. This shall he a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement. Except those who repent before you overpower them; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
 Qur'an, [Quran 5:3334]

Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time: They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
 Qur'an, [Quran 33:5761]

Klocker
(04-21-2017, 09:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by AcademicSaucer

So Islam isnt a factor? So being a muslim living in a majority muslim country with the death penalty for blasphemy has no relation with killing someone for blasphemy?

That is fucking insane
Septic360
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by azyless

maybe :

Sorry not a single one of those verses has anything to do with prescribing a punsihment for blasphemy?

The first surah, the most mis-quoted Surah is about conduct at the time of war.

The second verse you listed doesn't talk about any punishments that people can administer??
Jonnax
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:50 AM)
One thing people need to resize is that being "well educated" does not make you a nice person.

Think of all the weapons, bombs, poisons etc in the world designed by well educated scientists and engineers.
Melkezadek
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Septic360

Sorry not a single one of those verses has anything to do with prescribing a punsihment for blasphemy?

The first surah, the most mis-quoted Surah is about conduct at the time of war.

The second verse you listed doesn't talk about any punishments that people can administer??

Not meaning to jump in, but for those who see the West as an enemy to Islam, would they not use those verses to justify their actions? (Not speaking on those in this story, but others who use violence in the name of Islam)

Not saying their interpretations are "true" or the correct way to interpret.
azyless
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Septic360

Sorry not a single one of those verses has anything to do with prescribing a punsihment for blasphemy?

The first surah, the most mis-quoted Surah is about conduct at the time of war.

The second verse you listed doesn't talk about any punishments that people can administer??

I don't care if that wasn't the original meaning of that chapter, it's obviously being used to justify blasphemy laws and punishment. Not that hard to make blasphemers into "people waging war against allah".
And if you don't consider "they shall be seized and slain" as a punishment I don't know what to tell you.
keuja
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(04-21-2017, 10:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Klocker

That is fucking insane

Even worse, death penalty for being atheist.
NutJobJim
(04-21-2017, 10:16 AM)
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The overly cynical part of me thinks that fanatics capable of this should simply be erased.

They are running defective software. Erase from system.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
(04-21-2017, 10:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Gaminar

How about you mind your own business? You can stop clutching your pearls over me clutching mine.

You can clearly tell a participant in a conversation on a public forum has lost it when they ask other forumites to 'mind their own business'. Just saying.
Septic360
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(04-21-2017, 10:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by azyless

I don't care if that wasn't the original meaning of that chapter, it's obviously being used to justify blasphemy laws and punishment. Not that hard to make blasphemers into "people waging war against allah".
And if you don't consider "they shall be seized and slain" as a punishment I don't know what to tell you.

If you don't care for the meaning of the chapter and what that actually chapter says a few lines below then what more is there to tell you. You share the same attitude with those that twist the verse for their own purposes.

There is no prescribed punishment in the Qur'an for blasphemy as far as I know. Pakistan's approach is quite extreme to say the least.

And all this goes contrary to express verses in the Qur'an that really set out the attitude in light of blasphemy etc:

6:108:

And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did

5:08
Let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is nearer to righteousness…

33:48
And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

So if a Muslim has taken upon themselves to take someone's life contrary to all the above, taken the authority that is really God's authority, what more can you say to them?

Also, abusing and utilising the extreme Pakistani law in order to protect yourself after you have committed a murder is hardly rocket science. A murderer or a group of them will use any protection afforded to them. Almost like abusing self-defence as a defence.

So blanket statements like screw religion or Islam don't really do the topic justice. There is much more to it.
BlackBanditSho
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(04-21-2017, 10:50 AM)

Originally Posted by HellforLeather

religion gives you a hell of a mental justification

RADICAL religion gives you a hell of a mental justification.
EuropeOG
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(04-21-2017, 10:52 AM)
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Obviously the fault of the US's foreign policies.
azyless
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(04-21-2017, 11:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Septic360

If you don't care for the meaning of the chapter and what that actually chapter says a few lines below then what more is there to tell you. You share the same attitude with those that twist the verse for their own purposes.

I said I don't care for the original meaning of the chapter, why should I ? Are you refuting the fact that these chapters are/have been used to justify blasphemy laws ? I'm guessing other muslims, even scholars, would say you are the one twisting the words.
Not my fault there are as many interpretations of the quran as there are muslims.
Linkup
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(04-21-2017, 11:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by azyless

I said I don't care for the original meaning of the chapter, why should I ? Are you refuting the fact that these chapters are/have been used to justify blasphemy laws ? I'm guessing other muslims, even scholars, would say you are the one twisting the words.
Not my fault there are as many interpretations of the quran as there are muslims.

You should because anyone can try to justify their actions using anything, but in this cause the original meaning shows that the verse doesn't actually approve of their actions so why try to blame Islam exactly?

So why are you trying to blame Islam rather than the culture or more accurately the classmates? Their law on this is based on their culture and what people feel about the subject rather than any supporting evidence from the Quran/Sunnah, but you wouldn't know about that supporting evidence since you just tried to write it off.

He is not the one twisting words, his interpretation follows the original as far as I can tell, it's you, ISIS sympathizers, and these students that are trying to justify their views/actions by reinterpreting these verses.
sirap
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(04-21-2017, 11:31 AM)
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All these verses taken out of context. Yep, it's gonna be one of those threads.
azyless
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(04-21-2017, 11:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Linkup

You should because anyone can try to justify their actions using anything, but in this cause the original meaning shows that the verse doesn't actually approve of their actions so why try to blame Islam exactly?

So why are you trying to blame Islam rather than the culture or more accurately the classmates? Their law on this is based on their culture and what people feel about the subject rather than any supporting evidence from the Quran/Sunnah, but you wouldn't know about that supporting evidence since you just tried to write it off.

He is not the one twisting words, his interpretation follows the original as far as I can tell, it's you, ISIS sympathizers, and these students that are trying to justify their views/actions by reinterpreting these verses.

Last I checked there wasn't any pope equivalent in Islam and it certainly wasn't you so I'm not sure why anyone should follow your interpretation of a verse compared to someone else's.
If your book is so easily manipulated by extremists maybe that's an issue the religion should deal with.
And I'll blame shitty "cultures" all I want, and yeah religion plays a big part in that.
Nev
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(04-21-2017, 11:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by DrkSage

Religion is a necessary evil

It was in some situations. Nowadays it's just a sickening tumour.

Blasphemy in 2017. Disgusting.
sephi22
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(04-21-2017, 11:50 AM)
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Eh. Religion is cancer. I have no problem with that statement. Faith in a higher power is nice but when you let other humans/conmen package that in a box and turn it into 'us' vs 'them' it becomes cancer.

And I say this as a former Hindu who's now an atheist. Someone called Hinduism one of the 'good ones' in this thread but it's as BS as the rest imo.

Originally Posted by Gaminar

Excuse me? Cut down on your use of the word "fuck" and please look a bit intelligible.

Lmao. This isn't Pakistan or Saudi, uncle. No tonal policing here. Nothing unintelligible about swearing if it gets your point across.
nynt9
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(04-21-2017, 11:55 AM)
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Re: context of phrases:

Here's the problem. These phrases are used to justify extremism, because they can easily be taken out of context. You can choose to take in a lot of context and soften the blow of those phrases, but extremists often don't. You are taking a charitable reading. Many extremists simply contextualize these phrases as "we are in a constant state of war against unbelievers" and then boom, everything is allowed.

Thing is, a lot of people who become radicalized don't do intense readings of the text and choose that path. They are preached to by others who use radical interpretations of phrases like those. Which was exactly my point. To claim there is NO basis for extremism in the text is purely false. There is some basis for it. You can take those words as-is to justify it. Context should matter, but not everyone is willing to use the context to soften phrases like this. Extremists prefer to take the phrases as-is.

When texts contain phrases like that, where you have to explain people the greater context to make them sound not super horrible, that is a problem. Not everyone has the same goodwill. As we can see in the actions taken by people in the story in the OP.

This is the problem with religion. Everyone can claim their own interpretation is the most valid. Since it is not based on facts, and is often derived from vague, contradictory texts, people can take it a long way.
Last edited by nynt9; 04-21-2017 at 12:01 PM.
Melkezadek
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(04-21-2017, 12:01 PM)
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I think the question should be, why are those verses there in the first place? If we all accepted that none of these verses should be taken literally, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. We see it with Christianity as well. There is nothing in the Bible that tells you to write laws preventing same sex marriage, but it would be bold to say that Yahweh has no problem with homosexuality. The Quran, like the Bible, creates a narrative that allows these things to be interpreted and applied to today's world.

They are imperfect books with good intentions. Criticizing the Quran or Islam does not mean you're generalizing or condemning all Muslims. Yes, there are a ton of morons, bigots, and racists who will try use that as a way to spread hate, but it's important to separate the two. We do the same thing with Christianity in America.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
(04-21-2017, 12:03 PM)
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Went through Mashal Khan's Twitter account I think a few days ago. Absolutely heartbreaking. He was just a harmless guy.

https://twitter.com/mashalkhan20
sephi22
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(04-21-2017, 12:03 PM)
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I just saw the video of the mob stomping his naked, lifeless body on liveleak. Fucking savages were tripping over each other trying to have a go at it, all while doing the chant I won't repeat.

Also.. https://twitter.com/AsYouNotWish/sta...97489963425792
SMH

Indignant
They sweep our floors, wash our clothes, shush and sway our crying children, cook our food, obey our every command and bow before our meaningless tantrums.They are our poor maids and servants.
And yet we find them sitting vacantly and awkwardly whilst a priveliged family eats out delicious food at a restaurant,completely oblivious of how they feel. (Image 1,2,)
But then in the same society,we also find other humans, though not privileged, they do take care of tongueless animals.(Image 3)

https://www.facebook.com/mashal.khan...96233197111683

This guy was a real G. Fuck. No one even came to his defense
Last edited by sephi22; 04-21-2017 at 12:06 PM.
GhostTrick
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(04-21-2017, 12:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Arkeband

Without religion, what would the justification for killing someone and dragging their corpse around be?


Skin color, sexual orientation, gender, social class, physical appearance...
People dont need religion to justify the most horrible things.
Melkezadek
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(04-21-2017, 12:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by GhostTrick

Skin color, sexual orientation, gender, social class, physical appearance...
People dont need religion to justify the most horrible things.

But does religion address things like skin color, sexual orientation, gender, social class? If so, what do they say about them?

Of course people don't *need* religion for a justification, but it gives them one.
GhostTrick
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(04-21-2017, 12:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Melkezadek

But does religion address things like skin color, sexual orientation, gender, social class? If so, what do they say about them?


What do you mean ?
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, my point was that with or without religions, people always found a way to discriminate people and even kill others this way.
I'm not saying anything is okay or whatsoever, I'm saying that people who think that, without religions, people would be more in peace are kinda wrong.



Edit: Right, I just saw your edit. Yeah I get your point indeed. It's true that religions can justify horrible things but only with horrible people, imo.

I mean you have to be pretty wicked to kill someone even for your religious beliefs.
iPaul93
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(04-21-2017, 12:53 PM)
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I don't know how people can do this to eachother over some bs.RIP.

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