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Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
(08-12-2017, 08:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by low-G

I didn't bother posting any sources because it's common knowledge. You don't have to source that the sky may be blue.

But here's a Harvard medical source with 17 references that by extrapolation (if it causes some it causes some) supports my statement "a lot of disease in the world caused by these carbs not in the form of obesity"

No, it's common knowledge that overeating causes diabetes, which is what your article suggests. The problem with your argument is that you're linking large overconsumption of specific types of carbohydrates with a completely generalized proposition that carbohydrates cause disease because obesity is even more heavily linked to overconsumption of carbohydrates (and food in general) than diabetes is. Massive overconsumption of literally anything is linked to negative health conditions.

Saying "carbs cause diabetes" is both incredibly oversimplifed and highly misleading.

Originally Posted by All Hail C-Webb

According to his BMI, he was obese, and BMI is about as in depth as 'calories in, calories out.'


The whole low-carb empire thing is insane.

First, most people who use Keto as a way of life are not following Atkins (most atkins products aren't even very good for Keto.)
Second, the real empire is the 'low calorie, high sugar' food industry. There is no Keto industry, shit, it's really difficult to find Keto friendly options outside, and they're certainly never marketed as such.
Walk into a supermarket and look at all the 100 calorie snack packs, and shit like that. That's the empire that is fighting to convince you that Calories in is what matters, and that the surge in diabetes is not at all related..

If nobody was doing Atkins they wouldn't still have a company named "Atkins" 10 years after he died. I mean, are you attempting to argue that literally no money is being made off his name?
Last edited by Angry Grimace; 08-12-2017 at 08:19 PM.
All Hail C-Webb
Member
(08-12-2017, 08:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by low-G

I didn't bother posting any sources because it's common knowledge. You don't have to source that the sky may be blue.

But here's a Harvard medical source with 17 references that by extrapolation (if it causes some it causes some) supports my statement "a lot of disease in the world caused by these carbs not in the form of obesity"

LOL, every time I post I see someone who has said what I was trying to say, but better.

To me, it's crazy how hard people fight against Keto. Ordering at a restaurant, my colleagues at work, even paying at the supermarket, it's always like, that's so bad for you, how are you eating that... Then a few months later, they're all like, omg, maybe you were right, teach me more about your way of eating.

Angry Hamburgler doesn't get to see the results in person, so it's going to be harder for him to get woke. Try low carb bro, your mind will clear right up, and these concepts will not be so difficult for you to follow any more.

Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

No, it's common knowledge that overeating causes diabetes, which is what your article suggests. The problem with your argument is that you're linking large overconsumption of specific types of carbohydrates with a completely generalized proposition that carbohydrates cause disease. Massive overconsumption of literally anything is linked to negative health conditions.

Saying "carbs cause diabetes" is both incredibly oversimplifed and highly misleading.



If nobody was doing Atkins they wouldn't still have a company named "Atkins" 10 years after he died. I mean, are you attempting to argue that literally no money is being made off his name?

No, it's common knowledge that overeating sugar causes diabetes. When people are trying to go low calorie, they tend to overeat sugar. It's pretty simple really.
Atkins is a fad diet, Ketosis is not a diet. Have you seen any of the Keto people mention Atkins?
Last edited by All Hail C-Webb; 08-12-2017 at 08:23 PM.
deadscreensky
Member
(08-12-2017, 08:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

I have an alternate theory you stopped checking for the same reason fad diets make their creators lots of money and the same reason you never apparently looked it up in the first place and had to ask me to do research about YOUR diet.

Fun fact: Dr. Atkins died at 260 pounds.

I stopped checking because your second link about 'low carb diets' featured a diet that was 40% carbs. That's not a keto diet. You're not talking about what we're talking about, and I think that might be because you're not even reading your links.

But let's look over the the last three of your examples. I see a study I can't even read without a subscription. Did you read through it? Was it an actual diet like what we're talking about or more nonsense like your second example? I have no way to check. The fourth one has some scientists pretending insulin apparently has no effect on body fat (!) so I think we can safely treat it as questionable.

I don't even think you looked at your last link, because to suggest it's anything but slightly cautious towards low carb would be silly. "Ask your doctor before you choose a diet" is not some kind of unusual advice that implies danger.

For the record I also didn't ask you to give me any evidence. I don't need anybody else to do my Google searches for me. I've done my (not Google-based) research ages ago, and I'm more than reasonably confident low carb is safe and healthy. (I keep an open mind, because science, but this isn't as uncertain as maybe it sounds.) If other people are interested they could use something Good Carbs, Bad Carbs as a starting point, or Taubes's follow-up, Why We Get Fat, if they want something a little easier to parse.

I've never tried Atkins and honestly I've never really given it a serious look, so I have no opinion one way or another. The diet in the appendix of Why We Get Fat is basically what I've been following for a while now, but I don't think it's online or I'd link it here. It's a fairly basic low carb thing, nothing fancy or faddish, and that ~10 pages of the book is definitely not making anybody rich.

I mean, you can do whatever you want, but I guarantee you will not be doing low-carb in 5 years.

I've been low carb for more than 5 years now. I don't see any reason I'd stop, I feel great and love what I eat. I have taken very occasional breaks just to see (again, science), and I always go back to low carb because it feels so much better and I'm so much healthier on it. If I can stick with a keto diet for 5 years with no problems I'm not sure why you think I can't last another 5. Cue the disingenuous Google searches?
Last edited by deadscreensky; 08-12-2017 at 08:35 PM.
Disxo
Member
(08-12-2017, 08:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lego Boss

Eggs are bad for you. Too much cholesterol

LOL
deadscreensky
Member
(08-12-2017, 08:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by All Hail C-Webb

Have any other Keto people realized how different food tastes now? It's amazing how things that I used to think tasted like crap now taste incredible.

Yep! This has definitely been one of the more interesting side-effects from dropping carbs. I enjoy a much broader range of tastes now. In particular I'm way more down with stuff I would have previously seen as too bitter or sour.

It also seriously changes how sugar tastes. I only very rarely have candy -- basically just a social thing -- but when I do I'm amazed at how overpoweringly sweet the taste now is to me. It's very clear to me now why candy from places outside of the US tends to be less sweet in general, because most other countries don't have everybody eating 80+ pounds of sugar every year.
Last edited by deadscreensky; 08-12-2017 at 08:32 PM.
Amikami
Member
(08-12-2017, 08:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/30/health...res/index.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15007396

http://annals.org/aim/article/746013...ity-two-cohort

http://web.archive.org/web/201201250...ghprotein.html

http://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/high...ohydrate-diets

Like one of the posters said, your resources aren't that great.

CNN: Assuming they're reporting a real study, these paticipants did not even adhere to the diet, and the report itself says following a diet is all about finding something thats not only sustainable, but sustainable to you. These diets were measured against each other for effectiveness. Because it's a study and one on weightloss at that, mortality is quite common. This article does mention that low carb was effective but because of the dropoff it's overall effectiveness was lowered.

NCBI: reduced weight and lower risk of cardiovascular disease. The downside as higher cholesterol, a known risk if your not careful with the type of protein. Seems to be a net positive. dropoff rate is reported however.

Analls: The study specifically looks at animal based low carb vs vegetable based low carb. The study says nothing about low carb. There was an increased mortality rate associated with animal based and a decreased mortality rated in the vegetable based low carb. No where does it say low carb was bad. The study uses two cohorts. The second cohort is older at the baseline. 59 with a 26 year followup for women and 75(!?) for men with a 20 year followup. We have no idea of how many deaths occurred in the younger cohort vs older but I would imagine their would be some risk associated with the heart at an older age. Finally, the study itself states that it does not account for lifestyles differences nor do we have any measurement of the standard error so we have no idea how different the values really are. I don't personally have access to the full version. If you use a scientific journal, you have to first remember it correlation, not causation. There can be alternative explanations, which a researcher knows. This researcher specifically used "associated with. Even if you absolutely took the conclusion as true, the conclusions states that plant based low carb is fine.

Hopkins: "Diets high in protein tend to be high in fat" There's plenty of animal proteins that are lean. If you are serious about keto you're tracking your macros. Fats are the only macros you aren't trying to hit. Second, keto is not High protein, it's moderate protein. The end of the article states CICO is the way. Keto is still CICO with other layers.

WebMD: Did you even read this one. Doesn't think it help your argument at all. It helps mine.

Your resources aren't that effective at showing that the health risk are worse than the health risk of being overweight. I can't drink hot coffee without increasing risk of throat and stomach cancer. The studies you provided doesn't equate to keto is bad. It equates to keto isn't for everyone and to beware of other health pitfalls if you engage in keto.

Originally Posted by All Hail C-Webb


Have any other Keto people realized how different food tastes now? It's amazing how things that I used to think tasted like crap now taste incredible.

Lol yep. I think its having so little sugar in your diet makes food taste a lot better. Like taking a bite of tomato or eating peanut butter feels way sweeter and the taste is more refined.
Last edited by Amikami; 08-12-2017 at 08:39 PM.
banjo5150
Junior Member
(08-12-2017, 08:52 PM)
I eat a small amount of carbs. I don't shun them, carbs can be important fuel for the body. To me the problem is you only need so much fuel and after that is when the weight gain can creep in. IMO.
Last edited by banjo5150; 08-12-2017 at 09:09 PM.
MTE
Member
(08-12-2017, 08:57 PM)
Glad to see some posters dropping some knowledge, and combating the stupid personal responsibility mantra.

Ketosis is good for you. You're born in ketosis. Insulin resistance causes overeatng, not being a "glutton".
Queen Vulpix
Junior Member
(08-12-2017, 08:58 PM)
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I tried going low carb (around 50g a day) for a few weeks early this year, while I wasn't hungry very often it was extremely expensive and I struggled to eat at least 1200 calories a day. One night after getting up to use the bathroom I blacked out and my head went right through my bathroom wall and was in the hospital for the night with a concussion and sprained wrist, never again will I go low carb. I'm a healthy weight anyway and just meal plan/weigh my food and eat a balanced diet (lean meat, fish, whole grains,vegetables, fruit) 1400-1500 a day with some light walking. While everyone worries about high blood pressure I on the other hand suffer from moderate hypotension so I require far more sodium then the average person so I don't count my sodium intake in the least.
Last edited by Queen Vulpix; 08-12-2017 at 09:01 PM.
AnAnole
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:05 PM)
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Man, this thread is rife with ignorance. Carbs per se may not be the cause of diabetes, especially in certain populations better adapted to agriculture and/or exhibiting greater degrees of physical activity, which has a large effect on glucose tolerance. But just because something isn't necessarily the cause of disease (pathological) doesn't mean that reducing or eliminating that thing won't have a therapeutic effect. There are a plethora of studies that demonstrate large improvements in glycemia, independent of calorie intake, in both type 1 and 2 diabetics, simply be greatly limiting glycemic load (the absolute amount of digestible carbohydrates in grams). This is incontrovertible. There are also other medical reasons to reduce the glycemic load in one's diet. Does the OP have any idea why his coworker is eating a low carb diet?
All Hail C-Webb
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Queen Vulpix

I tried going low carb (around 50g a day) for a few weeks early this year, while I wasn't hungry very often it was extremely expensive and I struggled to eat at least 1200 calories a day. One night after getting up to use the bathroom I blacked out and my head went right through my bathroom wall and was in the hospital for the night never again will I go low carb. I'm a healthy weight anyway and just meal plan/weigh my food and eat a balanced diet (lean meat, fish, whole grains,vegetables, fruit) 1400-1500 a day with some light walking. While everyone worries about high blood pressure I on the other hand suffer from moderate hypotension so I require far more sodium then the average person so I don't count my sodium intake in the least.

Had you done a lot of research before trying low carb? Why did you decide to try it?

I don't know if you were able to enter ketosis when just dropping to 50g of carbs a day, but with the issues you mentioned, you might have.

Salt intake is very important on Ketosis, you do not get enough of it, and Ketosis dehydrates you on top of it. I have liquid electrolytes and a sodium pill that I often take.

Low blood pressure and low blood sugar are also dangerous. My wife went from pre-diabetes to a morning blood sugar of 70. Even if she doesn't feel like it, she knows she needs to eat in the morning. So she has her butter drink (yes, butter drink) ready for each morning, and that keeps her level from getting too low before her next meal.

It is also time consuming, and expensive to eat this way.

All that being said; if you have a purpose for trying ketosis, and you do all the research, it can be extremely beneficial and worth the early effort.

Just noticed, Ketosis comes up as a misspelled word. Empire, my ass.
NIN90
fish heads fish heads
roly-poly fish heads
(08-12-2017, 09:10 PM)
After almost a year of low carb (pretty sure I I was in Ketosis for the majority of the time since I pretty much only ate chicken breast and eggs Monday through Friday but weekends are more lax) I finally got a few weeks off work and I'm kinda eating whatever the fuck I want and not monitoring my carbs intake at all.

Here's a couple of things I've noticed in the past two weeks:

  • I sweat like a freaking pig the second I do any exercise and it's not like I'm totally out of shape (not obese, walk 50+ km every week and I lift weights 3 days a week)
  • I'm so goddamn sleepy all the time. I can nap like 2 or 3 hours every day without any problem.
  • I'm never really full. I can eat all the time and I'm way earlier hungry in the day despite eating way more every day.

Yeah these carbs ain't worth it. Gonna go back to low carb tomorrow.
Goodbye pancakes, we had some wonderful weeks.
Last edited by NIN90; 08-12-2017 at 09:13 PM.
claviertekky
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:14 PM)
Valid for added sugar.

Americans eat too much sugar and salt.

Avoid large dinners or meals before sleeping/napping.
TheTylerRob
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:18 PM)
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Carbs are bad and they make you fat. But they're delicious.
Amikami
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Queen Vulpix

I tried going low carb (around 50g a day) for a few weeks early this year, while I wasn't hungry very often it was extremely expensive and I struggled to eat at least 1200 calories a day. One night after getting up to use the bathroom I blacked out and my head went right through my bathroom wall and was in the hospital for the night with a concussion and sprained wrist, never again will I go low carb. I'm a healthy weight anyway and just meal plan/weigh my food and eat a balanced diet (lean meat, fish, whole grains,vegetables, fruit) 1400-1500 a day with some light walking. While everyone worries about high blood pressure I on the other hand suffer from moderate hypotension so I require far more sodium then the average person so I don't count my sodium intake in the least.

That sounds terrifying. It's really important to do your research and talk to a dietrician, especially when you have conditions already. Low carbs causes a large reduction in electrolytes (salts, potassium, magnesium) and considering you already have low sodium, it looks like it caused a bad reaction. On keto, it's very important to 1) stay hydrated, and 2) keep you're electrolytes up because you lose a lot, expecially in the early stages. We often fuel up on broths and make what we call ketorade which is literally home made gatorade/electrolyte drink without the sugar. some choice sodium and potassium supplements. All of that said, I don't blame you for never wanting to try it again. You have to do what works for you.
Weckum
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(08-12-2017, 09:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wafflecakes

... I hate to break this to you...

Complex carbs and pure sugar aren't exactly the same.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
(08-12-2017, 09:24 PM)
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I mean, I get it. It’s the exact same thing with the Paleo Guys in the Paleo threads we get every once in a while or the rare Raw Food Diet thread. Someone writes a blog post/book/pamphlet that suggests that “it’s not your fault you’re fat, it’s [common food that is part of the local culture]!”

People buy into the lifestyle and culture and the feeling that they’re in a secret club abusing some lifehack nobody else knows about. It's the daily ways to reinforce the culture: the posting to the secret Fad Diet subreddit; the knowing look you give others on the same diet; the smug satisfaction of converting some co-worker who will give it up after a week to give the Fad Diet a try. That’s how fad diets work; if they didn’t they wouldn’t be a fad diet.

Its just telling that the same behaviors arise every time - the true believers say “my whole life feels better now that I stopped eating [cooked food/non-caveman food/carbohydrates]” and besides, all of the studies saying this is bad are flawed because of [some nitpick].” It’s the same thing here - how you “feel” is like 90% mental - that’s why double-blind trials exist - because placebos work and are a real thing. If you sincerely believe eating donuts all day will enrich your life, it probably will. And studies always break the same way, people find some way to nitpick them, e.g. “LOL that only tested 40% calories from carbs, that’s not a keto diet!” Except keto diets ask for as low as 4% calories from carbs. How does one figure that the health effects of carb-restriction would improve when you decrease your intake even more than the study did? It doesn’t make sense. But it doesn’t really matter what any given study says, the fad diet practitioner is going to find some way to distinguish and dismiss it in favor of the book written by the guy selling products supporting the fad diet.

Is there a person out there who can follow keto for a decade? Sure, but he won't because it won't be the fad diet a decade from now. And the people who commit to dieting fads like a religion are far and few between, despite the claims that "well I'm doing it so it's obviously sustainable!" Eating a balanced diet is susstainable. Cutting your portions is sustainable. Cutting out entire categories of food for nebulous reason is not.
All Hail C-Webb
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

I mean, I get it. It’s the exact same thing with the Paleo Guys in the Paleo threads we get every once in a while or the rare Raw Food Diet thread. Someone writes a blog post/book/pamphlet that suggests that “it’s not your fault you’re fat, it’s [common food that is part of the local culture]!”

People buy into the lifestyle and culture and the feeling that they’re in a secret club abusing some lifehack nobody else knows about. It's the daily ways to reinforce the culture: the posting to the secret Fad Diet subreddit; the knowing look you give others on the same diet; the smug satisfaction of converting some co-worker who will give it up after a week to give the Fad Diet a try. That’s how fad diets work; if they didn’t they wouldn’t be a fad diet.

Its just telling that the same behaviors arise every time - the true believers say “my whole life feels better now that I stopped eating [cooked food/non-caveman food/carbohydrates]” and besides, all of the studies saying this is bad are flawed because of [some nitpick].” It’s the same thing here - how you “feel” is like 90% mental - that’s why double-blind trials exist - because placebos work and are a real thing. If you sincerely believe eating donuts all day will enrich your life, it probably will. And studies always break the same way, people find some way to nitpick them, e.g. “LOL that only tested 40% calories from carbs, that’s not a keto diet!” Except keto diets ask for as low as 4% calories from carbs. How does one figure that the health effects of carb-restriction would improve when you decrease your intake even more than the study did? It doesn’t make sense. But it doesn’t really matter what any given study says, the fad diet practitioner is going to find some way to distinguish and dismiss it in favor of the book written by the guy selling products supporting the fad diet.

Is there a person out there who can follow keto for a decade? Sure, but he won't because it won't be the fad diet a decade from now. And the people who commit to dieting fads like a religion are far and few between, despite the claims that "well I'm doing it so it's obviously sustainable!" Eating a balanced diet is susstainable. Cutting your portions is sustainable. Cutting out entire categories of food for nebulous reason is not.

You don't get it, and I doubt you're capable of getting it.
Ketosis literally changes the way your body works. It's not a mental thing, it's a scientifically verified thing.

Your comment about the study just proves your ignorance. You wouldn't be in Ketosis with 40% calories from carbs. None of the studies you linked to were about Ketosis.

This sustainable thing is also just dumb. What are we limiting ourselves from that makes it unsustainable? I guarantee you I enjoy my food far more than you do, and I don't feel hungry.
120v
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:35 PM)

Originally Posted by NIN90

After almost a year of low carb (pretty sure I I was in Ketosis for the majority of the time since I pretty much only ate chicken breast and eggs Monday through Friday but weekends are more lax) I finally got a few weeks off work and I'm kinda eating whatever the fuck I want and not monitoring my carbs intake at all.

Here's a couple of things I've noticed in the past two weeks:

  • I sweat like a freaking pig the second I do any exercise and it's not like I'm totally out of shape (not obese, walk 50+ km every week and I lift weights 3 days a week)
  • I'm so goddamn sleepy all the time. I can nap like 2 or 3 hours every day without any problem.
  • I'm never really full. I can eat all the time and I'm way earlier hungry in the day despite eating way more every day.

Yeah these carbs ain't worth it. Gonna go back to low carb tomorrow.
Goodbye pancakes, we had some wonderful weeks.

yeah, i mean, i really try not to be a low carb/keto evangelist but... the benefits are pretty evident. i don't see how it could be a placebo effect, a fad. or whatever

i wouldn't call it "life changing" per se but the benefits are just too abundant to handwave
TerryVincent
Junior Member
(08-12-2017, 09:35 PM)

Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

I mean, I get it. It’s the exact same thing with the Paleo Guys in the Paleo threads we get every once in a while or the rare Raw Food Diet thread. Someone writes a blog post/book/pamphlet that suggests that “it’s not your fault you’re fat, it’s [common food that is part of the local culture]!”

People buy into the lifestyle and culture and the feeling that they’re in a secret club abusing some lifehack nobody else knows about. It's the daily ways to reinforce the culture: the posting to the secret Fad Diet subreddit; the knowing look you give others on the same diet; the smug satisfaction of converting some co-worker who will give it up after a week to give the Fad Diet a try. That’s how fad diets work; if they didn’t they wouldn’t be a fad diet.

Its just telling that the same behaviors arise every time - the true believers say “my whole life feels better now that I stopped eating [cooked food/non-caveman food/carbohydrates]” and besides, all of the studies saying this is bad are flawed because of [some nitpick].” It’s the same thing here - how you “feel” is like 90% mental - that’s why double-blind trials exist - because placebos work and are a real thing. If you sincerely believe eating donuts all day will enrich your life, it probably will. And studies always break the same way, people find some way to nitpick them, e.g. “LOL that only tested 40% calories from carbs, that’s not a keto diet!” Except keto diets ask for as low as 4% calories from carbs. How does one figure that the health effects of carb-restriction would improve when you decrease your intake even more than the study did? It doesn’t make sense. But it doesn’t really matter what any given study says, the fad diet practitioner is going to find some way to distinguish and dismiss it in favor of the book written by the guy selling products supporting the fad diet.

Is there a person out there who can follow keto for a decade? Sure, but he won't because it won't be the fad diet a decade from now. And the people who commit to dieting fads like a religion are far and few between, despite the claims that "well I'm doing it so it's obviously sustainable!" Eating a balanced diet is susstainable. Cutting your portions is sustainable. Cutting out entire categories of food for nebulous reason is not.

The difference between 40% calories from carbs and 4% is the staggering difference in how much insulin your body produces. You really have no idea what you are talking about. This is just a long winded paragraph of lecturing on something you are not informed about. I don't know how your getting into the placebo effect, ask anyone who has done keto if they felt "good" when they started the diet. Almost everyone will tell you the first week or two of transitioning out of carbs can be fucking awful.
Spoiled Milk
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Red

Nutrition science is not a mess. The popularization of nutrition science is a mess.

^
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
(08-12-2017, 09:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by All Hail C-Webb

You don't get it, and I doubt you're capable of getting it.
Ketosis literally changes the way your body works. It's not a mental thing, it's a scientifically verified thing.

Your comment about the study just proves your ignorance. You wouldn't be in Ketosis with 40% calories from carbs. None of the studies you linked to were about Ketosis.

This sustainable thing is also just dumb. What are we limiting ourselves from that makes it unsustainable? I guarantee you I enjoy my food far more than you do, and I don't feel hungry.

I mean, there is no scientific concensus that ketosis is either more effective or healthy in either the short or the long term. The Paleo guys said the same thing. The raw food guys say the same thing. The juice fasting guys say the same thing.

There's a reason they're often called "diet cults." They all operate on the same pseudo-scientific principle - this is called "woo"; things that sound scientific but don't stand up to any scrutiny, e.g. Ketosis being a magic secret of health that science just didn't know about until some guy wrote it in a book or blog. Telling skeptics they're dumb and wrong and just "don't get it" is part of fad diet culture and part of why fad diets keep persisting.
Amikami
Member
(08-12-2017, 09:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

I mean, I get it. It’s the exact same thing with the Paleo Guys in the Paleo threads we get every once in a while or the rare Raw Food Diet thread. Someone writes a blog post/book/pamphlet that suggests that “it’s not your fault you’re fat, it’s [common food that is part of the local culture]!”

People buy into the lifestyle and culture and the feeling that they’re in a secret club abusing some lifehack nobody else knows about. It's the daily ways to reinforce the culture: the posting to the secret Fad Diet subreddit; the knowing look you give others on the same diet; the smug satisfaction of converting some co-worker who will give it up after a week to give the Fad Diet a try. That’s how fad diets work; if they didn’t they wouldn’t be a fad diet.

Its just telling that the same behaviors arise every time - the true believers say “my whole life feels better now that I stopped eating [cooked food/non-caveman food/carbohydrates]” and besides, all of the studies saying this is bad are flawed because of [some nitpick].” It’s the same thing here - how you “feel” is like 90% mental - that’s why double-blind trials exist - because placebos work and are a real thing. If you sincerely believe eating donuts all day will enrich your life, it probably will. And studies always break the same way, people find some way to nitpick them, e.g. “LOL that only tested 40% calories from carbs, that’s not a keto diet!” Except keto diets ask for as low as 4% calories from carbs. How does one figure that the health effects of carb-restriction would improve when you decrease your intake even more than the study did? It doesn’t make sense. But it doesn’t really matter what any given study says, the fad diet practitioner is going to find some way to distinguish and dismiss it in favor of the book written by the guy selling products supporting the fad diet.

Is there a person out there who can follow keto for a decade? Sure, but he won't because it won't be the fad diet a decade from now. And the people who commit to dieting fads like a religion are far and few between, despite the claims that "well I'm doing it so it's obviously sustainable!" Eating a balanced diet is susstainable. Cutting your portions is sustainable. Cutting out entire categories of food for nebulous reason is not.

1. You undermine and demean people as lazy "take no responsibility for their health" for trying to be proactive and take responsibility for their health. When you leave in a culture, you often eat what the culture provides you with. You are a product of your environment in terms of dietary health until you choose not to be. I'm guessing your a healthy individual that leads a balanced diet lifestyle, but have you seen the state of America. Even if it's a norm in your community, its becoming less of a norm in the country overall. It's important to address how the environment influences kids and parents.

2. Placebos are real, but weightloss is not. Does it bother you that people will lose weight in a way other than you yourself would. Are you buying my meals. No? then what's your problem. Or are you itching to buy my hospital care when I have a health problem due to being overweight.

3. Studies are designed to be critiqued. Articles are too. If you want to critique other peoples critiques. Go for it. This is a discussion isn't it. Don't dismiss the fact that you didn't read your own articles. You did a google search.

4. You have yet to prove that Keto is unhealthy, or a fad. Furthermore, if it is a fad, why is it a problem for you or anyone else. Since you haven't proven negative health results, shouldn't be a positive that people have latched on to a lifestyle that will make them more healthy than not. It doesn't have to be your way.

5. You're under the impression that it's easy or too good to be true. There are plenty of days I want bread, pasta, and cake. Any sweet is a huge weakness for me. That's gone for the most part unless I make the decision to plan a treat day...which isn't a problem as long as you can get back on the wagon, which is any weightloss plan.

6. Again, telling people what is sustainable and what is not based off of your experience just makes you sound like an asshole if I'm being honest. Furthermore, you act like you are constantly doing CICO. you aren't. You have days when you overeat, over drink for a party, an event, a birthday. A day out at cheesecake factory, or a wedding. Keto is the same. It will take some time to get back into ketosis, but there are plenty of people who engage in low carb that will simply take days off to have what they want, especially if it's more for lifestyle and not weightloss. Few are cutting out carbs, and as shown to you with resources, it's hardly nebulous...but maybe it is to you. Do more reading. Either way, carbs remain a part of a healthy diet. But Some of us have decided we rather not overload most of the time.

I'm so over this argument at this point. It doesn't matter what you believe, but holding your nose up at people and suggesting that they are irresponsible and looking for the easy way out with their only crime being that they decided to buy and eat whatever the hell they want is your problem and you should consider your hobbies.
Last edited by Amikami; 08-12-2017 at 09:53 PM.
Zefah
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:47 PM)
I almost responded to one of Angry Grimace's inane posts, but then I saw he just went on and on as the thread continued and lost the willpower to even argue against such willful ignorance. Really impressive stream of hot garbage.
AnAnole
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

His wife claimed this, but his death certificate listed him as obese. The problem is that the coroner doesn't have an empire to maintain that might be ruined by him being 260 pounds when he died.

You're really horribly misguided.
elrechazado
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zefah

I almost responded to one of Angry Grimace's inane posts, but then I saw he just went on and on as the thread continued and lost the willpower to even argue against such willful ignorance. Really impressive stream of hot garbage.

And totally rife with logical fallacies. There are fad diets, so I get to lump every type of diet in together with zero evidence while literally ignoring every single post pointing out how incorrect I am.

It's absurd and has a wonderful fingers in ears trumpian quality.
HariKari
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:54 PM)
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Carbs aren't essential. The body will happily run without them. So eliminating or minimizing their intake is a viable way to manage weight.
Caelus
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:56 PM)
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Low or reduced carb and intermittent fasting work because they lead to chemical changes in the body beyond just reduced caloric intake.

Obviously any diet with reduced caloric intake will result in fat loss - but the quickness of fat loss, overall mood and energy, these are all affected by the type of diet.

I'd say it's been pretty easy to maintain low carb + fasting. Pretty simple to eat a chicken salad with some hard boiled eggs and brazil nuts at 3 pm for 'lunch'.

I'm not usually fond of anecdotal stuff, but the doctors in my family who live in Bangladesh - so a very rice-heavy diet in general - suggest lowering carb intake as well, helped my grandmother with her diabetes and my family members with weight loss and mood. It's not like you can't eat any carbs ever, it's more like you aren't constantly consuming them so your body isn't overloaded with excess energy.
GodofWine
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:56 PM)
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The typical American gets far too many carbs, mainly in sugar. Carbs in fiberous foids dont have the same impact.

I eat very low carbs until dinner because i know that i will probably get more than enough with dinner and any snacking i do at night.

Its more that sugar is bad, and many foods have so many added sugars.


Going full Keto is hard though.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:59 PM)
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I've been on keto for 4 months, and the reason I've done it is because when I have carbs in my system, it makes me want to eat more than I need because of the spikes they cause. Once I get to my goal weight, I will slowly ease them back in and have it in the back of my mind that I can't over do it.
Jumeira
Member
(08-12-2017, 11:59 PM)
He's being efficient, our bodies are extremely good at harvesting it as it was a scarce source of nutrition, given our modern lifestyle (we don't hunt we buy cheap) where there's an abundance of sugar, starch etc we can easily build a surplus.

It takes a lot of willpower to avoid so I really commend your colleague, it's tough, he'll look good or is on the way to achieving it.
Last edited by Jumeira; 08-13-2017 at 12:01 AM.
Kisaya
Member
(08-13-2017, 12:17 AM)
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It's a lot easier for me to maintain my weight without always having carbs in every one of my meals. It sucks to give up cause I enjoy most carbs, but I rather not be 30 pounds heavier.
andythinkpad
Member
(08-13-2017, 12:19 AM)
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Carb gets hate because the US government has not done a reasonable job to warm people against sugar.
tearsintherain
Member
(08-13-2017, 12:26 AM)
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90% of people don't need to bother, if you are around your target weights and don't have issues with blood pressure, diabetes, etc.

Type 2 diabetes however is a result of your body unable to correctly regulate your sugar intake, releasing too much insulin based on mostly sugar and carb intake amounts. If you are pre-diabetic or suffer from T2 diabetes, sure you can take insulin shots to try and compensate and other medications OR you can just eat very little carbs and sugar, thereby eliminating the source of the problem. Yes, potentially eating too much protein or fat can mess with other organs, so don't be the idiot who only eats 1 pound of bacon every day.

You can be on a low carb diet and still eat like shit, eating heavily processed food will still kill you faster. Eating too many calories is still bad.

From 3 years experience of low carb though, its far easier to simply avoid sugar completely by staying low carb, whereas before I could eat nearly endless amounts of pizza, chips, ice cream, etc and never feel "full". Far more than most people. My blood sugar levels were approaching pre-diabetic, and as someone who has relatives who suffered early T2 diabetes that was a problem. Since then I measure my blood sugar levels every six months and no problems at all, its actually the lowest its ever been in my life. With low carb I get fully with extremely small portions, like literally a quarter of food compared to what I used to eat before. I also usually only eat one meal a day now, with maybe a few nuts as a snack in the evening.

There are many others reasons too, for most people again its more a choice than anything important but for some people - morbidly obese, those who have a hard time with junk food and willpower, those who have T2 diabetes (T1 is VERY different and genetic) it can be a literal life saver. Sticking with it can be hard, and way too many people think its about eating lots of protein (its really fat, and just enough protein to satiate) and not eating any carbs (veggies are good and full of fiber and low carb, fruits are not that great though) or being able to eat junk - no, processed food is still pretty bad for you and should be minimal. Veggies, fish, meat you prepare, nuts, small amounts of dairy, etc.
Last edited by tearsintherain; 08-13-2017 at 12:28 AM.
sam12
Member
(08-13-2017, 01:11 AM)

Originally Posted by AnAnole

Does the OP have any idea why his coworker is eating a low carb diet?

To keep the weight off, according to them
Zefah
Member
(08-13-2017, 01:29 AM)

Originally Posted by sam12

To keep the weight off, according to them

And why are you skeptical of your coworker other than being affected by your old country nostalgia?
sam12
Member
(08-13-2017, 01:53 AM)

Originally Posted by Zefah

And why are you skeptical of your coworker other than being affected by your old country nostalgia?

That is besides the point. I am not concerned about why they are doing it. The whole point was to ask why all carbs are looked at so negatively and why are all (including things like beans, lentils etc are grouped in as evil along with processed goods). They are constantly saying "Carbs are bad for you," when they really are not as simple sugar is different from complex Carbs.
brianjones
Member
(08-13-2017, 01:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by HariKari

Carbs aren't essential. The body will happily run without them. So eliminating or minimizing their intake is a viable way to manage weight.

yeah but who wants to live a life without sandwiches?
Wafflecakes
(08-13-2017, 01:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Weckum

Complex carbs and pure sugar aren't exactly the same.

That isn't what you said though.
Korey
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by sam12

I don't understand the mentality developing which labels all carbs as evil, blaming for chronic disease development. Have a coworker who eats meat, dairy and some veggies for every meal and shuns carbs. That person also doesn't understand that veggies have carbs in them as well. Majority of the world outside of western nations eats Carbs every day with a very small amount of meat. The country I came from, we used to eat things like Rice, whole wheat, lentils, beans, cooked veggies, fruit, nuts, potatoes etc every day and only had meat like two-three times a week. Is this only a western idea to shun Carbs when they should actually distance themselves from processed foods/baked goods.

To put it simply, carbs are literally toxic to your body. It's like poisoning your blood every time you eat some.

Most humans have a tolerance for it though. Through insulin they can efficiently remove it from their bloodstreams to be used as energy or stored as fat.

If you eat too many carbs, this tolerance grows weaker. Your insulin won't work as well since your body is working overtime producing it to deal with all the poison in your blood. Over time, you could become diabetic.

Diabetics have less to no tolerance for it. So it stays in their blood longer, clogging up their blood cells and reducing oxygen delivery. This is why some diabetics need to have their extremities amputated, or go blind -- reduced oxygen delivery to their feet or eyes.

Just because "the country you came from" historically has a certain diet and people generally are ok, that doesn't make carbs good. Carbs, unlike fats and protein, are not essential to your body. You can have a healthier life eating only fats and protein.

Unfortunately, everything that tastes good in this day and age has carbs.
Kickz
Banned
(08-13-2017, 02:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by XenodudeX

Is butter a carb?

No.. Its a fat.
jiggle
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:12 AM)
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I hate carbs
Cuz I can't have more of it


Originally Posted by Kickz

No.. Its a fat.

I don't think so gretchen
Korey
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by jiggle

I don't think so gretchen

...yes it is.
Harrison Bergeron
Junior Member
(08-13-2017, 02:14 AM)
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I will agree with those who say nutrition science is a mess.

I do prefer as low carb a diet as possible, but I find with my running routine my performance vastly increases if I up my carb intake. I lost 45lbs running, lifting, and hitting a target caloric intake which mostly consisted of eggs and avocados.

Doesn't the proliferation of humans coincide with the development of agriculture and a heavily carb based diet?
Korey
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Harrison Bergeron

Doesn't the proliferation of humans coincide with the development of agriculture and a heavily carb based diet?

Yes, but that just means they found an easy way to make food instead of hunting. It's still bad for them.
dralla
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Korey

...yes it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8_POt2KlfQ
Harrison Bergeron
Junior Member
(08-13-2017, 02:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Korey

Yes, but that just means they found an easy way to make food instead of hunting. It's still bad for them.

Are there not still populations that have high carb diets and have very long lifespans and generally good lifelong health as well?
The Shadow
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by sam12

I don't understand the mentality developing which labels all carbs as evil, blaming for chronic disease development. Have a coworker who eats meat, dairy and some veggies for every meal and shuns carbs. That person also doesn't understand that veggies have carbs in them as well. Majority of the world outside of western nations eats Carbs every day with a very small amount of meat. The country I came from, we used to eat things like Rice, whole wheat, lentils, beans, cooked veggies, fruit, nuts, potatoes etc every day and only had meat like two-three times a week. Is this only a western idea to shun Carbs when they should actually distance themselves from processed foods/baked goods.

Carbs are "evil" in the sense that they're basically one step away, digestively, from sugars. Even sugar isn't evil, but at least in the US, people eat way too much sugar and carbs, which contributes to obesity.

And yeah, it's true the some veggies have carbs and fruits have sugars. Nutritionally, they also provide fiber and vitamins, making them less "empty", so to speak. Breads, which if you really look for them are in practically everything in Western diets, are basically just carbs and nothing else. No real nutritional value, aside from filling you up and turning into sugars.


How do I know this? Both me and my wife started conscientiously cutting carbs out of our diet (and reducing portion amount). We're both losing 2+ pounds a week without additional exercise or doing anything else differently. It seems absolutely bizarre to me that I can have a giant steak for dinner and still see weight loss.

Edit: Obligatory https://youtu.be/ue_KpuWiIO4
Last edited by The Shadow; 08-13-2017 at 02:28 AM.
Icedburden
I'm a giant fucking idiot.
If I complain about this tag, tell me to grow up.
(08-13-2017, 02:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by Transistor

People look to blame anything other than their own laziness and bad habits

This

Originally Posted by Red

Nutrition science is not a mess. The popularization of nutrition science is a mess.

And this.
h1nch
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:27 AM)
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Switching to a low-carb/medium protein/high fat diet has done wonders for me. I have more energy, less food cravings, and have been steadily losing weight (20 lbs since June) without any increase in excercise.

That's not to say that carbs are inherently evil. But a typical western diet has *way* too much carbohydrate to be healthy IMO. And yes, eating too much excess carbs can lead to type-2 diabetes. Furthermore, eating a ketogenic diet is the best thing a pre-diabetic person can do to reverse the trend and lower their A1c back to normal, healthy levels.

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