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Best CRT TV for old school systems...?

Goody

Member
Could be the signal. What kind of input are you using?

It is! The SNES was wavy as all get out, and so was my 64. They were both using the same model S-Video connector I bought on eBay. Signal was bad using either the S-Video hookup or the composite, regardless of the TV input I was using. My PS2 seemed fine though. I dug out an old official Nintendo A/V composite cable and it cleared right up.

Thanks so much for guiding me in that direction. Guess I need to find a good SNES/N64 S-Video connector now. Can anyone recommend one?
 

Zing

Banned
Yes, cheap svideo connectors will not have the luminance and chroma separated properly. Rule of thumb is to not buy a combo cable. Make sure it only has svideo.
 

inner-G

Banned
Heartbreak.

Got the Trinitron. It has all the hookups, got it all set up and running.

Color, awesome. Sound awesome. Buuuuut, the geometry is bad. It slopes down slightly only on the right side and no amount of pincushion adjustment in the service menu can fix it :(

(Does it on all inputs)
 

Zing

Banned
You are correct that horizontal bow is not adjustable. You can rotate the image a bit to try to offset it. The service mode setting is TROT, although some models have rotation right in the user menu.
 

BubbaMc

Member
Heartbreak.

Got the Trinitron. It has all the hookups, got it all set up and running.

Color, awesome. Sound awesome. Buuuuut, the geometry is bad. It slopes down slightly only on the right side and no amount of pincushion adjustment in the service menu can fix it :(

(Does it on all inputs)

Grab the service manual mate and crack open the case. There'll be pots on the circuit boards that should be able to adjust it out.
 

inner-G

Banned
Yeah, I've got it as close as she's gonna get.

Might switch back to the Toshiba after a side-by-side look. Tempted by a 34" XBR Trinitron on CL but its friggin 200lbs.

Grab the service manual mate and crack open the case. There'll be pots on the circuit boards that should be able to adjust it out.
I would but I'm paranoid of electrocuting myself, lol
 

Goody

Member
Just got component cables for my PS2. Omigoodness. Is so nice! Gonna get some good headphones and play Silent Hill 3 ASAP.

It's a shame the GameCube component cable is so pricy.
 
Is there a reason why people don't like HDTV CRT's for retro consoles? It seems like a lot of folks are flipping over the quality of the Sony PVM and BVM broadcast/medical Trinitron's. There is a good number of them that have "800 lines" of resolution which to me sounds like a sort of pseudo-HD monitor ... what's different about the HDTV's that somehow screw up 240p signals?

I've heard it's the scaling, but isn't there an option on a good many HDTV CRT's to disable the scaler? Do all TV's digitally scale to 1080i? I was under the impression that CRT's (HD, SD, ED, no matter) didn't have a "native" resolution.

I'm seeing BVM/PVM love across the internet for classic gaming, but I don't see any definitive reasons why HDTV CRT's wouldn't be appreciated equally/more-so.
 
HD CRTs are still HDTVs. Any time you're dealing with an older standard def signal on an HD set (CRT or otherwise), the set is going to have to convert the image and upscale the content to fit.

Resolution has nothing to do with it. It has to do with the original signal type.

I'm sure someone can give a much more technical explanation, but hopefully that makes some sense.
 

Tain

Member
Is there a reason why people don't like HDTV CRT's for retro consoles? It seems like a lot of folks are flipping over the quality of the Sony PVM and BVM broadcast/medical Trinitron's. There is a good number of them that have "800 lines" of resolution which to me sounds like a sort of pseudo-HD monitor ... what's different about the HDTV's that somehow screw up 240p signals?

I've heard it's the scaling, but isn't there an option on a good many HDTV CRT's to disable the scaler? Do all TV's digitally scale to 1080i? I was under the impression that CRT's (HD, SD, ED, no matter) didn't have a "native" resolution.

I'm seeing BVM/PVM love across the internet for classic gaming, but I don't see any definitive reasons why HDTV CRT's wouldn't be appreciated equally/more-so.

With every HD CRT I've seen (which hasn't been many, admittedly), 240p signals are still deinterlaced and scaled to HD resolutions. I'm pretty convinced that a CRT that can actually display in 1080i while also being able to show true scanline-laden 240p is a myth. I do think it's strange, given that CRTs naturally don't need everything to run at one resolution, but I think it's simply easier for the TV manufacturers to worry about a smaller range of HD resolutions than about a full range of resolutions that work for now-enthusiast hardware.

You can always bring up the TV's OSD and check out the resolution of that to be sure if there's scaling action going on. If you have a Genesis game running on an HDTV, bring up the TV's menu, and see that the menu is as crisp as it is watching a Blu Ray, well, it's obviously doing a lot of processing. Even without doing this, though, it's been obvious to me that CRT HDTVs do not produce the same kind of image as true low resolution ones (largely the scanline factor).

There's also the lag factor. Much of it comes from deinterlacing, some of it simply part of the TV's display pipeline. Same with any HDTV.
 
HD CRTs are still HDTVs. Any time you're dealing with an older standard def signal on an HD set (CRT or otherwise), the set is going to have to convert the image and upscale the content to fit.

Resolution has nothing to do with it.

If not the resolution, what's being upscaled? I guess I am not understanding what is going on. I figured when people refered to "upscaling" you are "taking content at one resolution, and scaling it to fit another resolution."

But in that respect, most NTSC CRT TV's were 720x486, no? And so what's going on with a "240p" signal like 256x224 being displayed on a 720x486 TV? Isn't this the same idea?

I just am trying to break down whats causing the problems along the way at displaying a good looking retro image. I've gotten tidbits of frameister talk, pvm talk, emulator talk .. and it's all sort of a jumbled collection of "this works for me" and nothing speaking on where things went wrong.

Also, HDTV CRT's do not have scanlines correct? Why? I thought a scanline was inherit to the CRT technology.
 

Asimov

Banned
What do you guys think about the scanline options in some emulators?

Maybe the emulators in the OUYA console will have scanlines and it will be a cheap alternative.
 
If not the resolution, what's being upscaled? I guess I am not understanding what is going on. I figured when people refered to "upscaling" you are "taking content at one resolution, and scaling it to fit another resolution."

But in that respect, most NTSC CRT TV's were 720x486, no? And so what's going on with a "240p" signal like 256x224 being displayed on a 720x486 TV? Isn't this the same idea?

I would have to come up with an analogy. The image difference and loss of quality comes from the conversion process.

It's like a digital phone line versus an analog phone line. One sends data packets and one sends tone.

Older fax machines were designed to work with tone. Modern digital phone lines will convert that tone to packets and send the data across the line. When the packets get where they're going, everything has to be converted back to tone again so that the other old fax machine can understand it.

The whole process works, but there's a lot of processing going on to make it happen.
 
What do you guys think about the scanline options in some emulators?

Maybe the emulators in the OUYA console will have scanlines and it will be a cheap alternative.

I've seen a few different scanlines in emulators, and I really wish I knew what "real high quality scanlines" are supposed to look like and why they're desirable. I've seen what composite going into an Orion (low end) branded TV looks like ... but that is crap compared to what people are reporting on the high high end Sony brand stuff.

I've played with Blargg's NTSC RGB plugin, and to me it looks a WHOLE lot closer to what I remember seeing on old CRT's than hitting the generic "scanline" option. The low brightness of a "scanline" filter seems to just kill the image, but at the same time ... is that really what real scanlines do? Kill every other line with a solid black line?
 

Tain

Member
Also, HDTV CRT's do not have scanlines correct? Why? I thought a scanline was inherit to the CRT technology.

Well... It has to do with how progressive scan works on an SDTV. SDTVs cannot do 480p. In order to do what we call "240p" (which is actually a number of different resolutions that all have around 240 lines) the screen is actually getting an interlaced signal, but instead of interlacing the odd and even lines every cycle, it draws them on top of each other. The even lines are shifted on top of the odd lines, in other words, meaning that you get "half" the lines at twice the speed. But you get gaps. The gaps are scanlines.

These don't exist on CRT HDTVs because, in actuality, the CRT HDTV is making an HD interlaced signal through its processing out of the "240p" signal it receives. Much like an LCD screen would make an progressive HD image out of a 240p one.
 

larvi

Member
Toshiba made a line of 480i CRTs with component input (or as they called it colorstream input). I still have several consoles hooked up to my Toshiba 36AF61. I'm dreading the day it dies and I need to figure out how to get it back out of my basement, but I'm pretty sure they made smaller screen models in the same line too.
 
Well... It has to do with how progressive scan works on an SDTV. SDTVs cannot do 480p. In order to do what we call "240p" (which is actually a number of different resolutions that all have around 240 lines) the screen is actually getting an interlaced signal, but instead of interlacing the odd and even lines every cycle, it draws them on top of each other. The even lines are shifted on top of the odd lines, in other words, meaning that you get "half" the lines at twice the speed. But you get gaps. The gaps are scanlines.

These don't exist on CRT HDTVs because, in actuality, the CRT HDTV is making an HD interlaced signal through its processing out of the "240p" signal it receives. Much like an LCD screen would make an progressive HD image out of a 240p one.

So does a scanline somehow "throw away" information? I see a lot of people talk about how they hate "emulated" scanlines. Well, isn't an "emulated" scanline perfectly identical to what occurs on a CRT in that the lines are completely blacked out? Why then would someone not like that?

When I tick a scanline filter, in essence, what is happening is a "mask" is being put over the image blocking out some of the image, and lowering the brightness because of the black mask. I assume the reason this doesn't happen on an old CRT is because of the fact that the phospers glow and lower the intensity of the scanline (i guess you could call it color bleed?)

I also see things like the "SLG3000" which will put scanlines on an HDTV signal. What makes the SLG3000 good, but emulated scanlines bad?

I'm just trying to get a good grasp on this, because I don't want to be a mindless drone who just "knows" that Sony Trinitrons make retro games look good.
 

Asimov

Banned
So does a scanline somehow "throw away" information? I see a lot of people talk about how they hate "emulated" scanlines. Well, isn't an "emulated" scanline perfectly identical to what occurs on a CRT in that the lines are completely blacked out? Why then would someone not like that?

When I tick a scanline filter, in essence, what is happening is a "mask" is being put over the image blocking out some of the image, and lowering the brightness because of the black mask. I assume the reason this doesn't happen on an old CRT is because of the fact that the phospers glow and lower the intensity of the scanline (i guess you could call it color bleed?)

I also see things like the "SLG3000" which will put scanlines on an HDTV signal. What makes the SLG3000 good, but emulated scanlines bad?

I'm just trying to get a good grasp on this, because I don't want to be a mindless drone who just "knows" that Sony Trinitrons make retro games look good.

The bolded part... I want to know that too, please.
 

Tain

Member
So does a scanline somehow "throw away" information? I see a lot of people talk about how they hate "emulated" scanlines. Well, isn't an "emulated" scanline perfectly identical to what occurs on a CRT in that the lines are completely blacked out? Why then would someone not like that?

When I tick a scanline filter, in essence, what is happening is a "mask" is being put over the image blocking out some of the image, and lowering the brightness because of the black mask. I assume the reason this doesn't happen on an old CRT is because of the fact that the phospers glow and lower the intensity of the scanline (i guess you could call it color bleed?)

I also see things like the "SLG3000" which will put scanlines on an HDTV signal. What makes the SLG3000 good, but emulated scanlines bad?

I'm just trying to get a good grasp on this, because I don't want to be a mindless drone who just "knows" that Sony Trinitrons make retro games look good.

I think you mostly have it with the idea that the phosphers lower the intensity of the scanlines.

These dedicated bits of hardware that people hook up to their TV to get scanlines and scale an image and all that really aren't much different from the final output of an emulator. I would never say that the MAME/MESS HLSL filter sucks and the Framemeister is a better way to go, for example.

Both emulators and dedicated scalers have their own slight issues in the form of timing (adapting a real or emulated console's slightly different display frequency to that of whatever your modern display is currently using being the main one), but that's mostly emulator lag territory and I'd say a particularly anal thing to worry about (though one that I hope gets more attention nonetheless).

Not having to think about lag is a factor in my decision to just use an SD CRT, and the look of "natural" scanlines is another. I don't really see myself getting on the dedicated scaler train unless I lose all my SD CRTs and still need to use my original hardware.
 
The bolded part... I want to know that too, please.

The obsession with old display technology and it's scanlines makes me wonder if someone sat and thought about this stuff over at Hyperkin when designing the new RetroN 5 that outputs in HDMI. There almost certainly has to be some sort of scanline fakery going on with the upcoming RetroN 5 ... unless Hyperkin really did ZERO research in what retro gamers want.

And, for all the money being spent on Framemeisters and XRGB's, and SLG3000's ... this most certainly can be accomplished with an emulator and the proper filters, no?

The point of expensive devices like the Framemeister is just to take the best output (SCART RGB usually) and simply increase the number of lines of resolution as fast as possible to an HDTV display without introducing lag.

To me, it seems emulators offer this with barely any performance requirement. So now you have your 100% digitally perfect scaled to any resolution with zero lag signal ... the ultimate goal of the $500 Framemeister. Now correct me if I am wrong, but as long as the emulation software is accurate, you essentially have the same signal a Framemeister will output, from a modern computer running an emulator.

Then you get to the SLG3000 which to me is sort of mystical. What does it do that a scanline filter doesnt? And if the SLG3000 is so popular, why not recreate its effect in a filter?
 
Indeed it was, mine is still going strong!

Some pics I've taken of it:

Wii 480P:
ZeldaTP_480P.jpg


PS3 Bluray 1080i:
Crank_Bluray_1080i.jpg
The colors are really nice. I have this tv in a closet cause I'm not using it right now. Great tv though.
 

Tain

Member
To me, it seems emulators offer this with barely any performance requirement. So now you have your 100% digitally perfect scaled to any resolution with zero lag signal ... the ultimate goal of the $500 Framemeister. Now correct me if I am wrong, but as long as the emulation software is accurate, you essentially have the same signal a Framemeister will output, from a modern computer running an emulator.

Then you get to the SLG3000 which to me is sort of mystical. What does it do that a scanline filter doesnt? And if the SLG3000 is so popular, why not recreate its effect in a filter?

There's no doubt that much of the desire for dedicated scalers stems from the desire to use original hardware and most of what they offer can be done with emulation.

With modern Windows PCs things do get a little shaky, though. The only emulator I've seen capable of offering a lag-free, tear-free, and stutter-free image (and I've looked), is BSNES running in an Aero-deactivated OS. And I haven't totally confirmed via high-speed camera that it's actually lag-free yet. With just about every other emulator, you have to either deal with screen tearing or lag (pick one), and often vsync stutter if you go with the latter.
 
There's no doubt that much of the desire for dedicated scalers stems from the desire to use original hardware and most of what they offer can be done with emulation.

With modern Windows PCs things do get a little shaky, though. The only emulator I've seen capable of offering a lag-free, tear-free, and stutter-free image (and I've looked), is BSNES running in an Aero-deactivated OS. And I haven't totally confirmed via high-speed camera that it's actually lag-free yet. With just about every other emulator, you have to either deal with screen tearing or lag (pick one), and often vsync stutter if you go with the latter.

I've been toying with "Higan" which does a bunch of Nintendo consoles ... I think the SNES component is BSNES.

Windows 8 from what I can gather does not use Aero, so I think I've experienced this first hand.

I didn't really care too much in the past about the "nitpick" stuff until I started to see some examples and got a real nostalgia rush and understood that the display technology and processing plays a huge impact on how that stuff looks.
 

Tain

Member
Windows 8 from what I can gather does not use Aero, so I think I've experienced this first hand.

I guess I shouldn't have said "Aero" specifically, as Windows 8 has a similar issue. It's "Desktop Composition" that I'm talking about. Windows 8 uses it, and it's always on. Programs can no longer deactivate it as they could in Windows 7, and the user has to go through some registry hackery to disable it.

The main thing this does is impose window management vsync on applications that don't use an "exclusive fullscreen" mode. BSNES is one of these.

The lag you'd get from this can be pretty subtle, but if you have a laggy display it can add up to be noticeable. Some of this stuff is kind of new to me, too, as I dug it up while writing a little game some months back. I feel like I can come off as a conspiracy theorist at times about it, lol.

It's also worth pointing out that these dedicated hardware scalers do have vsync lag of their own, it's just that it's often the minimum of one frame of lag rather than the multiple frames you often see in Windows.
 

inner-G

Banned
I couldn't handle the geometry problem with my kv-27fs13, so much to my wife's dismay, I bought my 3rd CRT from craigslist.

I got it. I FINALLY got it. A damn near perfect kv-27fs120 for $20.

I used the THX optimizer grid with the service menu and the geometry is amazing. The old one had weird faint white lines of interference of some kind on my PS2 components and this does not. Will post pics soon!
 
Man, some of you guys are picky! I rock a 2005 32 inch Sony Wega BUT I don't use any cables that didn't come equipped with the original consoles. No S video, HDMI or whatever (I don't know anything about this stuff, yet I have a massive - IMO - collection of retro games.) We didn't have anything of the sort back in the day, so I don't feel like I'm missing on anything. That being said, if a friend wanted to show me the way, I'd be open for a demonstration. However, I find that comparison shots on the Internet (using S video or SCART (whatever that is) and whatnot) are inconclusive at best through the lens of a computer screen.

P.S. Only thing I did though is have my NES top loader modded because there were these ridiculous vertical lines all over the screen and I didn't remember my original model doing this back in the day (basically, if it looks like it did in 1991, I'm fine with that).
 

inner-G

Banned
Even a 3rd party s-video cable will work for SNES/64. Official ones are better but more expensive.

I think the 3rd party ones are a composite signal broken out to s-video, but they make a noticeable difference in crispness for me, particularly on SNES.

GC/PS2 are best on components, but official Nintendo GC components will set you back about a hundo.
 

inner-G

Banned
Ok! Got some stuff to show.

Here's the Earthbound data load screen, it has a checkered background, you can really notice how tight the geometry is all the way to the corners:



Here's an in-game shot:



...and here's Cormano!




If you're reaaally interested here are some videos shot with my DSLR:

Earthbound Gameplay: http://youtu.be/2rRpyuViBNo
Mystical Ninja 64 intro: http://youtu.be/z63PW5xgQj4
 

teiresias

Member
Can anyone give me an opinion on how good a Sony KV-32FS100 is for 16-bit thru PS2-era gaming systems? There's one for sale locally if it hasn't already been spoken for. I already have a CRT at my dad's house, but I've always wanted a Sony CRT and was just wondering if anyone knew anything about this model?

Thanks guys.
 
Can anyone give me an opinion on how good a Sony KV-32FS100 is for 16-bit thru PS2-era gaming systems? There's one for sale locally if it hasn't already been spoken for. I already have a CRT at my dad's house, but I've always wanted a Sony CRT and was just wondering if anyone knew anything about this model?

Thanks guys.

It's a good set but it weighs about 200 lbs. If you have the space for it and the price it right, go for it.
 

Zing

Banned
Can anyone give me an opinion on how good a Sony KV-32FS100 is for 16-bit thru PS2-era gaming systems? There's one for sale locally if it hasn't already been spoken for. I already have a CRT at my dad's house, but I've always wanted a Sony CRT and was just wondering if anyone knew anything about this model?
I've owned several of this model. It is probably the most common model you will find. Fortunately, it is very good at what it does. It has a 3-line comb filter for decent composite output, the VM setting is in the user menu (which you will want to disable), and it has 16:9 compression for widescreen games, although this must be enabled manually each time you power on the system.

If someone asked me which TV to get if they wanted one ASAP, that is the model I would suggest. Otherwise, as I have probably already evangelized in this thread, the FV310 models are the overall pinnacle of 4:3 SDTV gaming.


As I mentioned in the other thread, the specs seem to be very good for this model, particularly the internal subwoofer. However, since almost all of your games are 4:3, you essentially have an overly large and heavy 20" TV. Those extra 6 inches are wasted.
 

Vashetti

Banned
As I mentioned in the other thread, the specs seem to be very good for this model, particularly the internal subwoofer. However, since almost all of your games are 4:3, you essentially have an overly large and heavy 20" TV. Those extra 6 inches are wasted.

Thanks for the advice!

I'm keeping my eye out for a pure 4:3 TV now. Preferably a Sony Trinitron as I have heard they are amazing.
 

Vashetti

Banned
I am about to trade off my 27" Sony Trinitron for something smaller. I saw a Sanyo DS20425 20" with S-Video locally on Craig's. Does anyone have any experience with this set?

edit: N/m, it sold before I could go check it out.
 
Toshiba made a line of 480i CRTs with component input (or as they called it colorstream input). I still have several consoles hooked up to my Toshiba 36AF61. I'm dreading the day it dies and I need to figure out how to get it back out of my basement, but I'm pretty sure they made smaller screen models in the same line too.

Would this be one of those types?
http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?section=2&group=521&product=197&category=

I have a buddy willing to give this to me for free but I want it mainly for 8 bit up to ps2 era, but I don't want the conversion happening like hdcrts debated in this thread.
 

baphomet

Member
So I scored a Sony PVM monitor the other day for cheap local. It's a thing of beauty, but I just have 1 problem. It accepts RGB over BNC connections. So I need a female RGB scart to BNC connections with an external sync which is no problem, but I don't know if I need JPN or Euro scart cables.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?
 

larvi

Member
Would this be one of those types?
http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?section=2&group=521&product=197&category=

I have a buddy willing to give this to me for free but I want it mainly for 8 bit up to ps2 era, but I don't want the conversion happening like hdcrts debated in this thread.

That looks similar to mine, I think the difference is that the 36AF61 has a flat tube where that one looks rounded. But looking at the specs it's definitely not a HDTV so you should be good for old school gaming on it. Just make sure the picture is good before you lug it home, while it's a bit lighter than mine (150lbs vs 200lbs) it's still pretty damn heavy.
 

Zing

Banned
Always test the TV before buying. I have looked at TVs listed on Kijiji as "working", then arrived to find that the entire screen's convergence was off. I bring a DVD player, s-video cable, and a DVD with test patterns. A single crosshatch pattern is all you need to immediately see any problems. Look for convergence errors (places where the colours separate into red/blue/green stripes) as these CANNOT be fixed in standard definition sets without physically opening the TV and tinkering with magnets. All TVs will have this problem to a degree in the corners, so minor errors are acceptable.

As someone who has bought, moved, and sold quite a few heavy TVs, I suggest being patient and waiting for "the one" instead of going through several trying to find the best.
 
That looks similar to mine, I think the difference is that the 36AF61 has a flat tube where that one looks rounded. But looking at the specs it's definitely not a HDTV so you should be good for old school gaming on it. Just make sure the picture is good before you lug it home, while it's a bit lighter than mine (150lbs vs 200lbs) it's still pretty damn heavy.
Thanks! Good thing I've been lifting recently;)
Honestly I'd prefer a flat screen but I guess most of them are typically the last gen HD CRT variant.
 
I have a pair of Ikegami TM20-18Rs coming to me tonight when I get off work. A recycling business in Austin was selling off a pallet of broadcast monitors and the TM20-18Rs were the only 20"ers. There were a couple of 13" PVMs, but I wanted something bigger. I keep reading that these things are pretty awesome. Crossing my fingers that they work OK. I'm going to have to make cables or modify the Y/C 7 pin in the back to fit a standard S-Video input.

Not sure what I've gotten myself into.
 
I hear good things about trinitrons.

I have a 21 inch Trinitron Monitor that can do 2560x1600 as desktop resolutions (and various lower resolutions at 120-100+ HZz) and I rigged a Composite to VGA adapter to the back of the VGA port and I LOVE running Brawl on there from my Wii. SO SMOOTH
 
Well, the XRGB Mini is the most modern scaler and still receives updates. It's also the most compatible option out there. The XRGB3 is also good but it has a few more limitations and is more difficult to use. Ignore anything older than that, however.

Also, the Mini outputs proper HDMI to a variety of resolutions which work better with HDTVs, I've found. The XRGB3 outputs via VGA or DVI (which doesn't pass audio).

I'm using a mix of SCART to mini-din for RGB input (best video quality) as well as s-video and component (for those systems where I have no other option). The XRGB is a Japanese device, however, so if you go for RGB you'll either want Japanese 21-pin cables or, if you have Euro SCART cables, you'll need a converter cable.

I recently took the plunge and bought an XRGB-mini, but I must say that I don't notice a big difference. The picture looks slightly better on a US SNES outputting through S-video, but I notice virtually no difference on my Genesis outputting via composite. Is this because I'm not using a better output such as SCART or am I "just doing it wrong? If it is the cable, any suggestions on how to address this since I have all US systems (I'd prefer not to mod them)?
 
Yeah, the Genesis' composite signal is awful. RGB or go home.

Actually, it's funny to think someone would invest in an XRGB without investing the comparatively miniscule cost of actual RGB cables. What's the benefit?
 
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