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Foffy
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:35 AM)
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I've felt so far with nearly a third of the Shrines done and half of the Divine Beast dungeons done that what I miss most are traditional Zelda-ish dungeons, ones with a theme that seemed to focus on something unique only to that location, but also feeling like an actual place. Twilight Princess did some of that really well.

Of course, I get why my desires are not being fulfilled; by "taking off the chains" they've really made no place inherently off limits outside of the "tutorial" part of the game. Even Shrines that have some of the harder enemies can be cheesed with lower level equipment and tactics, which I like. I've apparently finished some of the hardest combat Shrines in the game before taking down any Divine Beast.
SMgamer83
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:35 AM)
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Hi Developer! Another fellow developer here. I love the thoughtfulness of your feedback, as it's well written. I however feel like you are looking at it from the wrong player perspective, which is limiting how you can perceive the game. Please allow me to give you some rebuttal.

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

I finally finished BotW last night (all memories, all 120 shrines, most quests completed, etc.)

First, as a developer, you need to understand there are a LOT of types of players out there. You played the game to completion, which is something for an average game, is usually around 5% of your audience at best. Most players won't do everything in your game. This doesn't mean you need to make that 100% experience any worse, but it does mean you need to make sure the experience works for all player types. I'll get into that a bit more...

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

So without further ado, let's start with my criticism:

The Open World:
Generally speaking, I thought the world was too big...

At Moon, we have this 'fun per inch' principle - If we have the player just running for too long without any varied interactivity and fun content, then the level design is probably not great and should be reworked.

So, normally I would agree with you. I also personally HATE open world games. However, it's very important here to note that Nintendo's primary goal here was to make a game like Zelda 1, a game like Miyamoto's old experiences as a child exploring, a game where you are truly on an adventure. Exploring a large vast world. I don't disagree with your philosophy at Moon, but I do think player experience is being ignored if you have a hard and fast rule. In this case, Nintendo is focusing on pacing and separation, where they want the player to look around, choose a goal, journey towards that goal, then experience that goal. Each element of that player journey should be meaningful. If it was too short or dense, then choice paralysis can kick in, as well that part of the journey is no longer meaningful, and instead becomes a chore.

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

The problem here is that since the world is that big and a developer only has 24 hours in a day, repetition is the key to get the project to a finish line. And repetition is all over Breath of the Wild:

As a developer, I'm sure you understand the concept of limited resources, so the question comes is it worth that artists time, or that engineers time, and for what gain? So a small puzzle will feel a little different? That's probably not the best use of resources, that could instead go somewhere else.

In addition, as I mentioned about player experience, not every player is going to do every shrine. If 95% of your audience will only do half the shrines, is it that detrimental if a few repeat (and let's be fair, they don't actually REPEAT, they are just super similar...no different that certain stars in Mario 64 for example.)

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

Also, the combat shrines... They're literally all the exact same. Seriously, nobody was able to come up with something more interesting here? You have 3 different enemy types in those shrine, but they're literally all the same: You walk in, a single enemy spawns and you need to defeat that enemy in order to complete the shrine. Not once did I fight multiple enemies in there, let alone more varied types - It's always the same walking guardian types. Couldn't Nintendo have mixed it up a bit more by putting a walking guardian AND a flying guardian in one of the combat shrines just to make things a LITTLE more interesting? That design decision was baffling to me.

The same is true for the Korok Challenges...

So if I sound harsh, I apologize...but this is where you're missing that Nintendo design mentality. Each shrine was designed in a way that it could be your first. (I know, you're thinking Major ones wouldn't fit that bill.) But the point is if you had such a stark difference in difficulty, you risk ruining a players experience because they happened to stumble onto this particular shrine. Each shrine is meant to be about the same, and could be your very first.

The same is true with Korok seeds. They are meant to be a small thing to reward being observant. That's it. Not some series of challenges to overcome with a difficulty curve. It's clear that's why there are 900 of them...and why you hear most players go "Wow I only have like 40-60!" They are meant to cover a wide range of player experiences, so the likeliness of people finding a few is very high.

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

Enemy Camps: Again, most of these are just the exact same setup.

Same comments as before. I kind of agree with this one, but everything comes at a cost. When I saw my 3rd skull cave with a lantern hanging though, I wondered if it's a bit much as well. This could just be some small level design of making sure similar structure types feel different enough.

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

Combat / Controls: This is the most baffling to me, since I think the controls are quite a bit too convoluted. The Quick-Weapon switching with the 'Dpad' is all kinds of weird to me (the game pauses while doing that... really?) and breaks the games flow, the combat in general is just a notch over the traditional 3d Zelda combat, things like Shield Surfing require the player to press 3 buttons... all of that makes the game feel a bit less polished than what you usually expect from a Nintendo game. Regarding the UI in general, Brad Colbow made a great video about improving BOTW's UI that I 100% agree with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0td--XguPXA

There's a lot in this one so let me try to break it down.
If combat didn't pause, it would likely be to difficult for a large audience. Again, Nintendo's goal is accessibility, and while I know it sort of "dampers the experience" for seasoned gamers, trying to imagine a less skilled gamer running from enemies trying to bring out the next weapon seems less than ideal for that audience.

Shield Surfing is indeed complex. I agree with that. As a developer though, pointing out the problem is 10% of the battle. The other 90% is finding a better solution. Thought?

And lastly I watched that UI video. While it starts off well enough, the solution is sort of specialized. The suggested UI that pops up would ONLY WORK for chest instances. If this UI popped up each time you tried to pick up a weapon, that would pause game play even more, which would be really annoying every time you accidentally picked up a stick. It does improve the chest opening part though for sure! So again, its a question of resources and return.

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

Quests:

I haven't done enough to get a full grasp here, but overall I'd likely agree. These always seem like super optional stuff, which is why they never seem that meaningful.

Originally Posted by thomasmahler

Dungeons: I'd argue that Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess had way better designed dungeons.)

You'd of course be right. Again, resources. Nintendo chose to focus on the WORLD, not the dungeons. I'd barely even call the beasts dungeons.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Knowing how GAF works, I likely put too much time into a response no one will read anyway. If you have any questions, PM me as I don't read GAF that often anymore.
watershed
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by darkistheway

My complaint with the open world design is the same as it was for FFXV - I can't help but feel like the game would be better with half the expansiveness. I think this is going to be a problem with open world games for a while. Going bigger is cheap compared to increasing the density and as of yet we are not "punishing" developers for it.

I totally agree about BOTW's controls. They are not as immersive as they could be. I'm sure it could be improved upon.

You think developers should be "punished" for making open worlds like BOTW's? The density and the quality and the expansiveness of BOTW's open world is amazing. There's always interesting and fun stuff to do. This open world isn't just bigger, its more handcrafted and finely tuned than any previous open world I can think of.
Shamrock7r
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nickle

Dungeons, items, tunic's, masks, songs, heart pieces, bomb bags, quivers, stamina upgrades, bottles, etc. Almost all of these were substantial upgrades to Link's toolset, and let him do new things.

So a bunch of stuff that BOTW offers from the beginning, or also offers throughout the game?
ajjow
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:36 AM)
What I can get from this developer design debate is that games are truly art.

You are arguing why the director did that and not the other thing. Why all the shrines look the same, when Nintendo said that they took it from the japanese art Jomon Period.

Why the music is that way and not the other way around. The lack of constant things to do is better or worse than just looking and apreciating the vista?

All things considered, you are trying to entertain your consumer the way you think it`s more fited to your proper vision of fun. Some like fries, others love hambrguers and i love pizza.

There`s no such thing as saying they should improve this or that. BoTW is the expression of a japanese team about what they consider fun.

I dont like pausing to change weapons. But I know that Assassin`s Creed 2 can never play like BloodBorne. The design choices are different and make each game feel like it`s own entity.

The question is: Did the choices make sense with the game I`m playing? If they change this or that the game will really improve?

People complained about the fact that you can`t run and gun in Resident Evil 4. But does that make the game worse?

The Scream (Edvard Munch) would look better if it was using realistic drawn? I don`t think so.
RichiRamjag
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by WordsintheWater

At the end of the day I would trade in all 120 shrines and 900 Korok seeds for 6 solidly designed dungeons.

Personally, I wouldn't. I like the bite sized puzzles and I think overall it's more approachable for a good portion of people.
Plum
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nickle

Dungeons, items, tunic's, masks, songs, heart pieces, bomb bags, quivers, stamina upgrades, bottles, etc. Almost all of these were substantial upgrades to Link's toolset, and let him do new things.

I assume you mean "dungeon items" by those first two? Because dungeons aren't upgrades and items are a bit broad of a thing to list.

As for the others, the majority (heart pieces, bomb bags, quivers, stamina, bottles) are simply arbitrary limitations on things you could already do. Heart pieces and stamina upgrades have a direct equivalent in this game in the form of shrines, and the rest aren't needed because the game doesn't restrict you.

As for songs, masks and tunics, apart from a few exceptions they were almost always just keys for different locks. The fire tunic, for example, is just a way to get into the fire zone which, again, has a direct equivalent in BotW in the set that makes you impervious to heat.

EDIT: I'd like to add that there are certain armour sets you can only get in shrines. The climbing and barbarian sets are all found exclusively in shrines, the latter being the rewards for doing three pretty damn major challenges. The only difference between those and tunic upgrades from previous games is that you have to go into a shrine and get this game's version of a heart piece to get them.
Last edited by Plum; 03-19-2017 at 02:45 AM.
Rodin
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:41 AM)

Originally Posted by SMgamer83

Hi Developer! Another fellow developer here. I love the thoughtfulness of your feedback, as it's well written. I however feel like you are looking at it from the wrong player perspective, which is limiting how you can perceive the game. Please allow me to give you some rebuttal.



First, as a developer, you need to understand there are a LOT of types of players out there. You played the game to completion, which is something for an average game, is usually around 5% of your audience at best. Most players won't do everything in your game. This doesn't mean you need to make that 100% experience any worse, but it does mean you need to make sure the experience works for all player types. I'll get into that a bit more...



So, normally I would agree with you. I also personally HATE open world games. However, it's very important here to note that Nintendo's primary goal here was to make a game like Zelda 1, a game like Miyamoto's old experiences as a child exploring, a game where you are truly on an adventure. Exploring a large vast world. I don't disagree with your philosophy at Moon, but I do think player experience is being ignored if you have a hard and fast rule. In this case, Nintendo is focusing on pacing and separation, where they want the player to look around, choose a goal, journey towards that goal, then experience that goal. Each element of that player journey should be meaningful. If it was too short or dense, then choice paralysis can kick in, as well that part of the journey is no longer meaningful, and instead becomes a chore.


As a developer, I'm sure you understand the concept of limited resources, so the question comes is it worth that artists time, or that engineers time, and for what gain? So a small puzzle will feel a little different? That's probably not the best use of resources, that could instead go somewhere else.

In addition, as I mentioned about player experience, not every player is going to do every shrine. If 95% of your audience will only do half the shrines, is it that detrimental if a few repeat (and let's be fair, they don't actually REPEAT, they are just super similar...no different that certain stars in Mario 64 for example.)



So if I sound harsh, I apologize...but this is where you're missing that Nintendo design mentality. Each shrine was designed in a way that it could be your first. (I know, you're thinking Major ones wouldn't fit that bill.) But the point is if you had such a stark difference in difficulty, you risk ruining a players experience because they happened to stumble onto this particular shrine. Each shrine is meant to be about the same, and could be your very first.

The same is true with Korok seeds. They are meant to be a small thing to reward being observant. That's it. Not some series of challenges to overcome with a difficulty curve. It's clear that's why there are 900 of them...and why you hear most players go "Wow I only have like 40-60!" They are meant to cover a wide range of player experiences, so the likeliness of people finding a few is very high.


Same comments as before. I kind of agree with this one, but everything comes at a cost. When I saw my 3rd skull cave with a lantern hanging though, I wondered if it's a bit much as well. This could just be some small level design of making sure similar structure types feel different enough.


There's a lot in this one so let me try to break it down.
If combat didn't pause, it would likely be to difficult for a large audience. Again, Nintendo's goal is accessibility, and while I know it sort of "dampers the experience" for seasoned gamers, trying to imagine a less skilled gamer running from enemies trying to bring out the next weapon seems less than ideal for that audience.

Shield Surfing is indeed complex. I agree with that. As a developer though, pointing out the problem is 10% of the battle. The other 90% is finding a better solution. Thought?

And lastly I watched that UI video. While it starts off well enough, the solution is sort of specialized. The suggested UI that pops up would ONLY WORK for chest instances. If this UI popped up each time you tried to pick up a weapon, that would pause game play even more, which would be really annoying every time you accidentally picked up a stick. It does improve the chest opening part though for sure! So again, its a question of resources and return.


I haven't done enough to get a full grasp here, but overall I'd likely agree. These always seem like super optional stuff, which is why they never seem that meaningful.


You'd of course be right. Again, resources. Nintendo chose to focus on the WORLD, not the dungeons. I'd barely even call the beasts dungeons.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Knowing how GAF works, I likely put too much time into a response no one will read anyway. If you have any questions, PM me as I don't read GAF that often anymore.

Oh i certainly did, great read. I actually made some similar points in my post.

Originally Posted by ajjow

What I can get from this developer design debate is that games are truly art.

You are arguing why the director did that and not the other thing. Why all the shrines look the same, when Nintendo said that they took it from the japanese art Jomon Period.

Why the music is that way and not the other way around. The lack of constant things to do is better or worse than just looking and apreciating the vista?

All things considered, you are trying to entertain your consumer the way you think it`s more fited to your proper vision of fun. Some like fries, others love hambrguers and i love pizza.

There`s no such thing as saying they should improve this or that. BoTW is the expression of a japanese team about what they consider fun.

I dont like pausing to change weapons. But I know that Assassin`s Creed 2 can never play like BloodBorne. The design choices are different and make each game feel like it`s own entity.

The question is: Did the choices make sense with the game I`m playing? If they change this or that the game will really improve?

People complained about the fact that you can`t run and gun in Resident Evil 4. But does that make the game worse?

The Scream (Edvard Munch) would look better if it was using realistic drawn? I don`t think so.

Another good post.

Originally Posted by RichiRamjag

Personally, I wouldn't. I like the bite sized puzzles and I think overall it's more approachable for a good portion of people.

Actually, all it was needed was to make those 4 bigger and with a more intricated level design. The puzzle themselves were amazing in the three i did, just make more of them in more rooms.
Shamrock7r
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by Plum

I assume you mean "dungeon items" by those first two? Because dungeons aren't upgrades and items are a bit broad of a thing to list.

As for the others, the majority (heart pieces, bomb bags, quivers, stamina, bottles) are simply arbitrary limitations on things you could already do. Heart pieces and stamina upgrades have a direct equivalent in this game in the form of shrines, and the rest aren't needed because the game doesn't restrict you.

As for songs, masks and tunics, apart from a few exceptions they were almost always just keys for different locks. The fire tunic, for example, is just a way to get into the fire zone which, again, has a direct equivalent in BotW in the set that makes you impervious to heat.

To add to that, BOTW not only has those same additions, but expands upon those ideas and their uses (elemental arrows, variety in clothes, etc)
Thoraxes
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(03-19-2017, 02:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rodin

Your complaint kind of works with FFXV because 1) it doesn't have much meaningful content and especially 2) because traversing is shit. You just sit in a car and look at the vistas to go to objective A that directs you to B and from there you go to C, then you go back to B which tells you to report to A and you just spent 10 minutes in your car doing nothing other than changing old FF tunes at the radio that don't fit with the game's aesthetics. Fast travel isn't really an option since it takes minutes to load the game and at that point you're better off with just enjoying the pretty landscape.

Hardly the case in Breath of the Wild, where even going from a to b can be a puzzle and you find tons of compelling shit on your way to your objective.

Yeah, this. XV's world felt big for the sake of being big, to the point that the car felt like a means for you to actively not engage with the game while you traversed it due to its auto-pilot. I pretty much played through half of Pokemon Sun/Moon while I was "playing" XV due to that means of traversal.
Totakeke
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by SMgamer83

...

I know this post is generally positive, but I did expect a discussion from this angle a bit more. More thoughts on issues and fixes, thinking why they did things the way they did it, while assuming the same amount of resources is available to come up with solutions.
Rogue Agent
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by SMgamer83

So if I sound harsh, I apologize...but this is where you're missing that Nintendo design mentality. Each shrine was designed in a way that it could be your first. (I know, you're thinking Major ones wouldn't fit that bill.) But the point is if you had such a stark difference in difficulty, you risk ruining a players experience because they happened to stumble onto this particular shrine. Each shrine is meant to be about the same, and could be your very first.

Actually, that's a great point and I didn't realise this when OP mentioned this as a critique.

One of my first shrines was a Major Combat Trial and I'm glad it wasn't a shrine with dangerous obstacles and an enemy that devastated me with difficult-to-avoid attacks. Also, it still managed to slice me in a single hit and that felt like a challenge.

Despite that, it'd be cool to get more variety with the Guardian things.
Chill Penguin
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(03-19-2017, 02:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by obijkenobi

I keep going back and forth on the size of the map. I think for hardcore gamers like us that post on NeoGAF, sinking 3 hours a shot into exploring the map could make it tedious. Getting all 120 shrines this close after the release date is a sign of playing the game A LOT.

The flip side is that you have other types of hard core players that are literally going to Calamity Ganon ASAP. I'm sure most of those players will eventually see all 120 shrines, but not as quickly as the OP for example.

Then you have the players in the middle. I work full time and go to grad school full time, so while I'd love to play the game and just get lost in it all the time, I literally don't have that kind of time. So the game is continuously fresh even if I only get to 1-2 shrines, max 4 or 5, in a game session.

BUT! because the land is so big, sometimes I wish I could just get to the next shrine and be done with it. My gaming time is so precious, I don't want to traverse to what looks like an interesting area to "only" get a Korok seed.

I guess what I'm saying is, I can see it from multiple points of view. Overall,this is an amazing game, and everyone needs to play it....but I can see everyone's point of view on that particular aspect.

I agree with you here. I think this game is going to generate a lot of debate once the honeymoon period ends. It's brilliant at what it does but it's not without it's flaws, like many reviews would have you believe. After the first 25 hours I was convinced this was the greatest game ever created. It still might be and I love the new direction, but as time goes on the games flaws become more apparent.
Stereogatari
Banned
(03-19-2017, 02:53 AM)

Originally Posted by kunonabi

It still feels like a letdown regardless of the path. Instead of receiving a gift from the dragon or something else new and exciting you get yet another shrine. Exploring just stops being satisfying when almost all roads lead to one of two outcomes: shrines or korok seeds.

This I agree with. Epic Dragon side quest with great Sino-Japanese music, and anti-climactic shrine afterwards...
Kadin
Member
(03-19-2017, 02:54 AM)
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What a well written perspective, OP. I always think it's great to try and make great things even better. This was a heck of a game but there are always things to improve on.

While I love open world games in general, I am starting to find that they're not as awe-inspiring anymore like they once were. I love just going out and exploring the world but I'm starting to realize that usually this doesn't equate to any increased value at the end of the day so I do it less and less. But it doesn't stop me from thinking, 'I wonder what's over that hill?'
xevis
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(03-19-2017, 02:55 AM)
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Love the OP.

Purports to give a game design critique. Delivers the same generic layman criticism levelled at every open world game ever.
Ziocyte
Junior Member
(03-19-2017, 02:55 AM)
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World size: I'm having the opposite reaction 80 hours into the game. They struck a delicate balance between periods of rising action and measured rest. The downtime between interactions, for me at least, was usually short lived and it was a chance to appreciate and absorb the region I was in. The game is absolutely oozing with atmosphere. The dialed back score in the over-world helped to emphasize the sounds of nature like the wind rolling over the grass, thunder clouds rolling overhead or the simple sound of your character running over a stone bridge with your equipment jangling. If you haven't tried playing BotW with a good pair of headphones I highly recommend it!

There was one particular instance in my playthrough where I felt I was in an area that just felt totally barren and uninteresting. It was right after I completed the Labyrinth in the Akkala Sea. I went to fly off and landed on the shore with a huge cliff face ahead of me. There were a few random octoroks shooting at me from various angles, not much to explore, and limited options for creatively traversing the landscape. This was one time in 80 hours.

Shrines: I've thought a lot about the subtext of BotW's story and how we see that manifest in the game world. Everything related to Sheika technology is presented as very cold, mass produced, and manufactured. Now, if this was a product of development constraints or the original vision, we don't know. If it was a product of constraint, however, they certainly went all in with this idea and applied it as a core part of the game's mythology. It serves to contrast against the over world which is rich and full of life.

Mechanically, I thought the combination of shrines, over-world puzzles, world bosses, and divine beasts / dungeons was enough to scratch all the various itches I got from previous entries in the series.
Last edited by Ziocyte; 03-19-2017 at 02:58 AM.
Shamrock7r
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(03-19-2017, 02:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stereogatari

This I agree with. Epic Dragon side quest with great Sino-Japanese music, and anti-climactic shrine afterwards...

Don't consider that the end of the side quest
CronoShot
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(03-19-2017, 03:01 AM)
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I very much disagree with the "fun per inch" concept, at least in terms of an open world game.

That space is very important, not only to give your discoveries impact, but also to encourage the act of simply looking around. I don't know how many points of interest I found by simply panning the camera around while running in an empty field on my way to a different objective. If there are too many things in too little space, that can overwhelm the player and give them a sense of tunnel vision.

The act of getting sidetracked is a hugely important part of BotW.
Nocturnowl
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(03-19-2017, 03:01 AM)
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I think it's always worth pointing out that the simpler shrines or reward shrines based off solving a challenge beforehand are almost certainly a good thing for the younger or lesser skilled audience.
If every shrine was packing puzzles out the arse it'd be great for me but I can't forget the kids who would walk into a number of them and have to leave after not figuring out what to do, these fellas need their spirit orbs to!

It actually reminds me of Mario games 120 stars syndrome.
Through my modern lense of consuming platforming challenges you've got a number of stars that are filler like or just not requiring much effort (eg: Toad just gives you a star because you talked to him) but when I recall my younger days playing the game the stars you could quickly nab to inflate your number were much appreciated for opening more stages and getting closer to the end without having to tackle certain tasks because you better believe a number of stars just had me stumped for instance (Blast away the wall, boy that was logical huh)
sanstesy
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(03-19-2017, 03:02 AM)
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Doing all the shrines has also multiple rewards so there is a overarching reward on top of the usual rewards. I definitely feel with the rewards themselves they have done a very good job this time around. The only thing that feels lacking in that regard is weapon rewards in the late-game when you have already enough of most of the best weapons in the game but that is kind of unavoidable. Rewards, rewards, rewards.
Jobbs
Ghostly member
(03-19-2017, 03:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by xevis

Love the OP.

Purports to give a game design critique. Delivers the same generic layman criticism levelled at every open world game ever.

I would critique Zelda more harshly than many other major open world games. It's bigger, and it has less varied content. I hope you like fighting the same 3 enemy types because that's what the world has.

For the record, I finished Zelda and liked it quite a bit -- But I've been pretty mystified by the 10/10 scores and all of the hyperbole and praise. It's not a 10/10 game. Lack of enemy variety, lack of challenge, lack of things to do, no good dungeons, no good bosses... I just don't get it.

I could understand the hype and 10/10 scores somewhat in my first 15 hours with the game. At that point the world felt alive and full of possibilities... Eventually I realized I'd seen and done basically everything the game had to offer in those first 15 hours. The wonder, challenge, and feeling of discovery completely -- completely falls apart after a bit further into the experience.

If I explore more I might find another bokoblin or moblin or lizard dudes -- Same as the other ones.. ANd I won't want to bother with them anyway because they're not challenging or interesting and my weapons will just break.

Or maybe I'll find more shrines and increase my hearts so I can be safer in a game that already doesn't threaten me in any way... (two of the divine beast bosses didn't even hit me once in the first time I fought them -- Not even once! And I'm not an amazing gamer or anything)

I think there'll increasingly be a backlash against the game -- Not because it's a bad game or worthy of scorn, but because of the disparity between the metacritic and what many actual normal humans playing the game think of it.
Nickle
Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
(03-19-2017, 03:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Shamrock7r

So a bunch of stuff that BOTW offers from the beginning, or also offers throughout the game?

When you get a stamina upgrade in Wind Waker, you double the amount of stamina you get. In BotW, you need 4 orbs just to upgrade your stamina a small amount. Every upgrade you get in past Zelda games is more substantial then the small upgrades that you get in BotW.

Originally Posted by Plum

I assume you mean "dungeon items" by those first two? Because dungeons aren't upgrades and items are a bit broad of a thing to list.

As for the others, the majority (heart pieces, bomb bags, quivers, stamina, bottles) are simply arbitrary limitations on things you could already do. Heart pieces and stamina upgrades have a direct equivalent in this game in the form of shrines, and the rest aren't needed because the game doesn't restrict you.

As for songs, masks and tunics, apart from a few exceptions they were almost always just keys for different locks. The fire tunic, for example, is just a way to get into the fire zone which, again, has a direct equivalent in BotW in the set that makes you impervious to heat.

EDIT: I'd like to add that there are certain armour sets you can only get in shrines. The climbing and barbarian sets are all found exclusively in shrines, the latter being the rewards for doing three pretty damn major challenges. The only difference between those and tunic upgrades from previous games is that you have to go into a shrine and get this game's version of a heart piece to get them.

Finding a dungeon is the best reward you could possibly hope for in a Zelda game.

Items are the things that give you new abilities that let you solve new puzzles and access new parts of the world, they are a fantastic reward. BotW basically stops giving you them after you leave the Plateau.

Getting a new tunic with heat or cool resistance is very rewarding in BotW, just like it is in the other games. That's only a few objects in an 80 hour game, though.

Stat boosting items are nice to recieve, but new abilities, such as the champion abilities are much more rewarding to recieve, and you don't really find those by exploring.
Shamrock7r
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(03-19-2017, 03:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

I would critique Zelda more harshly than many other major open world games. It's bigger, and it has less varied content. I hope you like fighting the same 3 enemy types because that's what the world has.
.

That's not true though? Those 3 are obviously the most common, and I'm with you to an extent that they could have varied more (one of my main complaints), but only 3 enemy types isn't close to true.

Originally Posted by Nickle

When you get a stamina upgrade in Wind Waker, you double the amount of stamina you get. In BotW, you need 4 orbs just to upgrade your stamina a small amount. Every upgrade you get in past Zelda games is more substantial then the small upgrades that you get in BotW.

Finding a dungeon is the best reward you could possibly hope for in a Zelda game.

Items are the things that give you new abilities that let you solve new puzzles and access new parts of the world, they are a fantastic reward. BotW basically stops giving you them after you leave the Plateau.

Getting a new tunic with heat or cool resistance is very rewarding in BotW, just like it is in the other games. That's only a few objects in an 80 hour game, though.

Stat boosting items are nice to recieve, but new abilities, such as the champion abilities are much more rewarding to recieve, and you don't really find those by exploring.

"finding" dungeons was part of the natural progression of previous Zelda games. They really weren't a product of discovery, they were part of the main story structure and couldn't be avoided.

You mention that stat boosting items are nice but not that rewarding, yet in your previous post you specifically mentioned larger quivers, bomb bags, heart containers and stamina upgrades as these great things that previous Zelda games had over BOTW, lol.


A lot of the upgrades I think you are wrapping your head around from previous Zelda games (specifically dungeon items like the boomerand, hookshot, korok leaf, etc) are items and abilities that are given to you from the get go. Obviously the idea behind BOTW is you have the main tools available to you from the beginning, and the only real limitation is you figuring things out. I understand the idea of getting a new, permanent item from a treasure chest has a sense of accomplishment and progression attached to it, but I think BotW does this in a much more natural way, while still offering a slew of upgrades, outfits, and other secrets.
Last edited by Shamrock7r; 03-19-2017 at 03:18 AM.
Skyzard
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(03-19-2017, 03:07 AM)
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I agree in that there is less variety than I would have liked.

Combat shrines, enemy outposts and a slight lack of interesting things to come across - not enough Eventide Island or even just enemy variety and parts of the landscape that aren't ruins or towns but something inbetween.

I like the design of the game, I just wish there was more variety. Even more to explore, see and hear.

And more dungeons/complex shrines.

Really enjoyed my 55 hours so far but the pattern of things available in the game is getting pretty obvious and a little disappointing. The icons aren't on the map...but it's got a lot of repetition. I was expecting a little more interesting content.
The few things there that are good are pretty great. But I wish I came across more in my traveling.
Last edited by Skyzard; 03-19-2017 at 03:10 AM.
MiamiWesker
(03-19-2017, 03:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by sanstesy

This is the most varied Zelda of all time, alright. You are not exactly thinking this through. The difference compared to past entries is that you aren't forced to do anything in any specific way or order because there are multiple approaches to literally everything.

That's why that one Shrine quest in the Korok forest stands out so much in how rigid it is.

I don't think that is true at all. I think if you string together all the unique things you can do in this game and remove all the repetition you get about the same amount content as past zelda games just spread out and padded to a ridiculous degree. I would also argue that content isn't as good as past zelda games, mainly because dungeons are so much better than anything in this game.

And no I don't think it's that varied. Any dungeon in past zelda games had many unique cool ideas and of course a new item which served as a brand new gameplay mechanic hours into your adventure. This game has none of that, you are doing the same things from the start till the end. Now you can accomplish things in different ways but after many many hours it all starts to blend together.

Originally Posted by Crayolan

BotW is full of minigames though. Off the top of my head:
-Surfing minigame
-Bowling minigame
-"Golfing" minigame (and I don't just mean that one shrine)
-Superman 64 minigame (I say this jokingly, it's actually one of my favorites)
-Break the Targets, but in midair
-Horse jumping minigame

I'm sure there's others I've forgotten too. Outside of minigames BotW also has a bunch of really cool moments unlike any other Zelda game:
-Survival on Eventide island
-Navigating through the darkness in Typhlo Ruins
-Every time you use the game's physics to your advantage to do something really silly in combat is an awesome feeling. In no other Zelda game can you manipulate your enemies to getting hit by lightning.
-One of the few places in the game where you can walk into a room and immediately have like 4-5 lasers aimed at you. That "holy shit what have I done" feeling is not something I ever get out of Zelda games.
-Going to Hyrule Castle immediately. Not everyone will do this, but for those who do it's some crazy Metal Gear shit where everything is so terrifying you feel the need to sneak around and if you get spotted you gotta run because everything can kill you easily and killing anything is not realistic, at least not till you find some good gear. It's unlike anything I've done any other Zelda game and is one of the best experiences you can have with this game, at least for me.

Again the freedom is top notch and I will try some super weak run at some time. And yeah there are mini games and it's probably on par with past zeldas, but the size of the world is not on par with past zeldas so you get a game that doesn't fill the world with the amount of unique content it feels it needs. It's not just the mini games but the dungeons and new items that always added to the feeling of doing new stuff. I get bored in this zelda game, I almost never got bored in past zelda games. This is not a wrong or right opinion, just for me personally, I perfer smaller more packed with content than big and filled with repetition.
Last edited by MiamiWesker; 03-19-2017 at 03:25 AM.
watershed
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(03-19-2017, 03:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

I would critique Zelda more harshly than many other major open world games. It's bigger, and it has less varied content. I hope you like fighting the same 3 enemy types because that's what the world has.

For the record, I finished Zelda and liked it quite a bit -- But I've been pretty mystified by the 10/10 scores and all of the hyperbole and praise. It's not a 10/10 game. Lack of enemy variety, lack of challenge, lack of things to do, no good dungeons, no good bosses... I just don't get it.

I could understand the hype and 10/10 scores somewhat in my first 15 hours with the game. At that point the world felt alive and full of possibilities... Eventually I realized I'd seen and done basically everything the game had to offer in those first 15 hours. The wonder, challenge, and feeling of discovery completely -- completely falls apart after a bit further into the experience.

If I explore more I might find another bokoblin or moblin or lizard dudes -- Same as the other ones.. ANd I won't want to bother with them anyway because they're not challenging or interesting and my weapons will just break.

Or maybe I'll find more shrines and increase my hearts so I can be safer in a game that already doesn't threaten me in any way... (two of the divine beast bosses didn't even hit me once in the first time I fought them -- Not even once! And I'm not an amazing gamer or anything)

I think there'll increasingly be a backlash against the game -- Not because it's a bad game or worthy of scorn, but because of the disparity between the metacritic and what many actual normal humans playing the game think of it.

You've been saying this since day 1 and I think you're desperately seeking confirmation bias. If you want to know what actual normal human beings feel about this game, just direct yourself to the numerous overwhelmingly positive threads here on gaf and across the rest of the gaming community. It's not just reviewers who are in love with this game. People love this game. The fact that you don't doesn't mean there is a slowly boiling consensus that aligns with what you think.
LotusHD
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(03-19-2017, 03:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

I think there'll increasingly be a backlash against the game -- Not because it's a bad game or worthy of scorn, but because of the disparity between the metacritic and what many actual normal humans playing the game think of it.

The hell is this part lol

I gotta say, it always amuses me when people realize they're in the minority regarding a game's positive reception, and then go on to basically say they can't wait for everyone to finally come to their senses. It's just weird to be biding around, waiting for something like that.
Last edited by LotusHD; 03-19-2017 at 03:18 AM.
Jobbs
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(03-19-2017, 03:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Shamrock7r

That's not true though? Those 3 are obviously the most common, and I'm with you to an extent that they could have varied more, but only 3 enemy types isn't close to true.

In my first few hours I found two types of world boss and it led me to believe this game was full of different shit to find. Those turned out to be pretty much the only types (centaur is not classified as a boss, and there's also a sand worm thing).

So we've got a few world boss types, we've got a centaur guy, we've got bokoblins, moblins, and lizard dudes. We've also got variants of those guys who shoot rocks at you and a few different types of wildlife.

I mean... It's not enough. For a world this size, it's not enough. In the first few hours you're likely to see all or most of the enemy types in the entire game.

The controls are nailed. Climbing and especially gliding -- I love those things. They're fun to do. In a way, they're their own reward. That's what kept me playing long enough to do a lot of extra content off of the critical path. It just feels like a huge missed opportunity that there's so little variety -- and so little incentive to actually explore. The game has no incentive and no meaningful character progression. Getting more hearts or more stamina after a certain point isn't exciting because everything is trivial. My save basically feels like godmode. Between having 16 hearts and near limitless access to healing items, there's just no threat to be found.

The bosses in this game are fucking terrible in every single way. These Ganon creatures are boring to look at and pose no challenge whatsoever (you could argue that the Gerudo Ganon actually bothers to attack you and thus feels like a fight -- But the others? The Rito and Goron Ganons didn't hit me even once. They spend a lot of time shooting bullets but none ever seem to hit me. It's weird)

The only enemy in the game that poses a challenge is the centaur. The only one. It's harder than fucking Ganon himself (who is another boss who basically doesn't put up a fight -- This game had the most anticlimactic finale I could have ever imagined). He shoulda put a centaur in charge of the castle.

Originally Posted by watershed

You've been saying this since day 1 and I think you're desperately seeking confirmation bias. If you want to know what actual normal human beings feel about this game, just direct yourself to the numerous overwhelmingly positive threads here on gaf and across the rest of the gaming community. It's not just reviewers who are in love with this game. People love this game. The fact that you don't doesn't mean there is a slowly boiling consensus that aligns with what you think.

Clearly I'm not talking about hardcore fans and forum types enraptured by Zelda hype.. I merely said the game is soooo fucking not a 10 to me that I strongly suspect that'll be the case for a lot of other people and we'll see the effects of that as time passes.
Last edited by Jobbs; 03-19-2017 at 03:19 AM.
Timeaisis
(03-19-2017, 03:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nickle

A lot of you are complaining that he's just biased because he doesn't like open world games, but does that mean that the open world formula shouldn't be subject to criticism? He doesn't like open world games for a reason, and he doesn't feel that BotW fixes all the problems with the open world genre.

Like I said, I don't think the game is for everyone, and that is fine. Personally, I almost universally dislike traditional open world games but absolutely love sandbox and less story focused ones. I think BotW does solve many, many open world problems, nearly every reason I dislike most, but the fact remains it's still designed to be big and open. It is what it is, and I don't know if there's an apparent solution to fixing the "emptiness" without sacrificing the open world aspect. Some things come at a cost.

That being said, I understand the criticism against BotW in regards to the dungeons, but this doesn't detract from my love of the core gameplay loop. The Zelda franchise offers so many varieties of gameplay accross the series, and BotW capitalizes on only a few of them, albeit the few I happen to happen love the most.
Plum
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(03-19-2017, 03:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nickle

When you get a stamina upgrade in Wind Waker, you double the amount of stamina you get. In BotW, you need 4 orbs just to upgrade your stamina a small amount. Every upgrade you get in past Zelda games is more substantial then the small upgrades that you get in BotW.

Finding a dungeon is the best reward you could possibly hope for in a Zelda game.

Items are the things that give you new abilities that let you solve new puzzles and access new parts of the world, they are a fantastic reward. BotW basically stops giving you them after you leave the Plateau.

Getting a new tunic with heat or cool resistance is very rewarding in BotW, just like it is in the other games. That's only a few objects in an 80 hour game, though.

Stat boosting items are nice to recieve, but new abilities, such as the champion abilities are much more rewarding to recieve, and you don't really find those by exploring.

Stamina upgrades are small, but in such a large game they need to be as you've got something to look towards. Compared to how I began, now I have nearly 3 whole rings of stamina I feel like I can go anywhere; before I could barely climb a small hill. There's also the fact that you only get one stamina upgrade in Wind Waker so of course it has to be substantial; stamina upgrades like that for every 4 orbs you get would break the game's climbing system.

As for items, yeah there are fewer overall in the world, but again most items are literally only used once or twice outside of their respective dungeons. They "open up new parts of the world" because it's the game's way of blocking progress, got nothing to do with exploration.

You argue that "there are only a few items in an 80 hour game," when that's hardly the case. There are two major sets of clothing that pretty much open up entire regions to explore, there are many other more minor sets that make a certain part easier/more accessible.

"You don't really find those by exploring."

If you turn off the mini-map and remove the quest markers then yes, you get those by exploring. A lot more than previous games in which each dungeon was practically sign-posted to you by the respective game's helper/map system. If dungeons and dungeon items are obtained through exploring in previous games then they are damn sure obtained by exploring in this one; saying otherwise seems to be a heavy case of double standards.

Originally Posted by Jobbs

Clearly I'm not talking about hardcore fans and forum types enraptured by Zelda hype.. I merely said the game is soooo fucking not a 10 to me that I strongly suspect that'll be the case for a lot of other people (again, not vocal fans and hyped up people we're likely to see on forums).

So if you discount people posting on forums, what other avenues of "backlash" are there? Will "normal people" on Twitter, Facebook, etc start posting about how the game is actually an 8/10 and that the gaming media's reviews are fake news?

Full disclosure here, I don't agree with the 10/10 reviews; the game's still my GOTY but it's more a 9/10 than a 10/10 to me, I just seem to get roped in to these types of arguments because they're often not very good arguments.
Last edited by Plum; 03-19-2017 at 03:24 AM.
Lilo_D
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(03-19-2017, 03:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by LotusHD

The hell is this part lol

I gotta say, it always amuses when people realize they're in the minority regarding a game's positive reception, and then go on to basically say they can't wait for everyone to finally come to their senses. It's just weird to be biding around, waiting for something like that.

Apparently I'm not actual human being :p
effingvic
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(03-19-2017, 03:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

I think there'll increasingly be a backlash against the game -- Not because it's a bad game or worthy of scorn, but because of the disparity between the metacritic and what many actual normal humans playing the game think of it.

🙄

Give me a break.
phanphare
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(03-19-2017, 03:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

I think there'll increasingly be a backlash against the game -- Not because it's a bad game or worthy of scorn, but because of the disparity between the metacritic and what many actual normal humans playing the game think of it.

any day now

any day now
watershed
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(03-19-2017, 03:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs


Clearly I'm not talking about hardcore fans and forum types enraptured by Zelda hype.. I merely said the game is soooo fucking not a 10 to me that I strongly suspect that'll be the case for a lot of other people (again, not vocal fans and hyped up people we're likely to see on forums).

The fact is that the reception to BOTW has been overwhelmingly positive as told by reviews, podcasts, on forums, from gamers, developers, youtubers, sales, etc. Every available metric says people love this game far more than they dislike it. Your opinion is your opinion but I think you're wrong to try to force reality to conform to your opinion. For example by suggesting people are caught up in "Zelda hype" and that your opinion is somehow more clear headed or that people will eventually, at some future date, agree with your opinion.
ExVicis
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(03-19-2017, 03:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by OrbitalBeard

The fact that you just wrote an entire essay specifically addressing BotW's faults and yet you still consider it to be one of the best games Nintendo has ever made just shows how special this game truly is.

Most of your criticisms are totally valid too. The game is great, but there's tons of room for improvement moving forward. Can't wait to see how they improve on this formula for the next entry.

Yep, great first post.

A Great Game doesn't need to be perfect to be that way. You can completely see the flaws in something and still know that despite those flaws it's a 10/10. And as you said being able to see those flaws and having them being overwritten by how everything plays speaks to how strong of a game it is.
Jobbs
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(03-19-2017, 03:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by phanphare

any day now

any day now

Doesn't happen overnight.

GTA4 has a 98 mc. -- I remember when GTA4 came out. I remember the hype, and the "this game.." type comments for that game.

I can't speak for all people, but it certainly seems that a lot of people don't like GTA4 now. I'm certainly one of them.

Right now people are blinded by how amazing it is that a dog spins when you spin (but it can't fetch a stick) or saying "this game..." because a horse ate an apple but the excitement of simple, shallow, pointless interactions with a game do wear off eventually.

Originally Posted by watershed

The fact is that the reception to BOTW has been overwhelmingly positive as told by reviews, podcasts, on forums, from gamers, developers, youtubers, sales, etc. Every available metric says people love this game far more than they dislike it. Your opinion is your opinion but I think you're wrong to try to force reality to conform to your opinion. For example by suggesting people are caught up in "Zelda hype" and that your opinion is somehow more clear headed or that people will eventually, at some future date, agree with your opinion.

I mean we're in a thread made by a developer who was fairly critical of the game.

Also GTA4 98
MGS4 94
Skyzard
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(03-19-2017, 03:25 AM)
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I think there is some merit to people being more disappointed the more hours they put in due to the lack of variety and repetition that becomes apparent after a lot of hours.

That's not to say it's not a great game. But it could do with a little more variety to the enemy encounters and open world design - for such a large game that you want to get sucked up in.

The lack of handholding, sense of adventure and the style in this game is superb for the first 30 hours, after that it drops a bit. The combat gets better (or you are more competent at taking advantage of opportunities), though perhaps being too easy at some point due to mechanics. But after a while you also feel like you've seen most of what it has to offer and still haven't progressed through the story because you were possibly hoping to see more that isn't really there.

You want to put in 120 hours with how much area there is to explore...but it doesn't feel like it has enough variety to keep it interesting past 70 hours. Which is still decent, but not ideal for an awesome open world game despite a great aspect being that you can finish it faster if you want.
If you want to take your time and explore it, the patterns of gameplay opportunities become underwhelming. Still fun and cute, but a little lackluster.
Last edited by Skyzard; 03-19-2017 at 03:41 AM.
Sanctuary
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(03-19-2017, 03:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by thomasmahler

If you're not a game developer, here's a bit of info on how these open world games are built: You usually start with a large terrain and sculpt the landscape, then you fill in the landscape with content. This video gives you a basic idea of how these worlds are crafted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozXYKpUugd8

Even if you're not a game developer, it should be pretty obvious this is how most (if not all) of the open world games are built. Which is why too many of them are either just full of...nothing, or the developer realized how empty they were, so all of the random "points of interest" or "collect this trash" ends up being dispersed throughout to give players "more to do", even if that "more to do" is vapid.
Shamrock7r
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(03-19-2017, 03:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

In my first few hours I found two types of world boss and it led me to believe this game was full of different shit to find. Those turned out to be pretty much the only types (centaur is not classified as a boss, and there's also a sand worm thing).

So we've got a few world boss types, we've got a centaur guy, we've got bokoblins, moblins, and lizard dudes. We've also got variants of those guys who shoot rocks at you and a few different types of wildlife.

I mean... It's not enough. For a world this size, it's not enough. In the first few hours you're likely to see all or most of the enemy types in the entire game.
.

Just off the top of my head


Moblins (various types)
Bokoblins
Lizard (various elemental types)
The night time Skeletons (I think there are around 4 or 5 different ones)
The Octo monsters (various typed)
The small rock enemies
The dancing wizards with the elemental rods
The gooey eyeball guys that throw the fire skulls
The Bat enemies (various elemental types)
The chuys? (the bubbly enemies that explode, various elemental types)
The Yiga Clan guys
Hinnox
Skull Hinnox
The Giant Rock mini boss (various elemental versions)
the Centaurs
The Guardians (various types)
The Heli Guardians
The wildlife that attacks you such as the wolves


I mean, again, you can always have more variety, and like I said, I think they could have used some more basic enemies, but you are being a little unfair in your description. I do agree with you that the main bosses at the dungeons were pretty weak in comparison to previous games.
Last edited by Shamrock7r; 03-19-2017 at 03:33 AM.
sanstesy
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(03-19-2017, 03:29 AM)
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It's not like some people don't have the same complaints as you do, Jobbs. There are actually multiple people that have voiced similar complaints. It's just that not everyone is weighing these the same way as you do. Games are not checklists and never were rated as such.

And it's getting kind of weird that you post your feelings about Breath of the Wild in every relatable thread imaginable as you were every time posting them for the first time as well. You could almost copy paste them at this point. But do what you do.
SalvaPot
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(03-19-2017, 03:29 AM)
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I never felt like I was wasting my time or the world was too big because every piece of terrain I explored was fun in its own way. The game presents you with interesting visuals and little mysterys for you to go out of your way to explore if you feel like it.

I was always surprised whenever I looked at my map and realized I had traveled half the map without even realizing. Getting lost in this game is so easy and so much fun.

I do agree that the Korok tasks are mindless and repetitive, but the real challenge is on finding them, not doing the task to summon them. I don't see myself looking for all 900 of them to be honest, but I enjoy when I see one of them around.
NewGame
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(03-19-2017, 03:30 AM)
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I don't understand why people don't like the mono style of the shrines, to me they feel like Portal test chambers and it feels great to complete them.
Shamrock7r
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(03-19-2017, 03:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by NewGame

I don't understand why people don't like the mono style of the shrines, to me they feel like Portal test chambers and it feels great to complete them.

I won't hate on anyone who prefers more classic dungeons. I prefer the shrines as I felt Zelda's dungeons were getting ridiculously long to finish, but I know that is just a preference for me.
phanphare
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(03-19-2017, 03:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

Doesn't happen overnight.

GTA4 has a 98 mc. -- I remember when GTA4 came out. I remember the hype, and the "this game.." type comments for that game.

I can't speak for all people, but it certainly seems that a lot of people don't like GTA4 now. I'm certainly one of them.

Right now people are blinded by how amazing it is that a dog spins when you spin (but it can't fetch a stick) or saying "this game..." because a horse ate an apple but the excitement of simple, shallow, pointless interactions with a game do wear off eventually.

to be clear I'm sure there are people who don't/won't like breath of the wild and will be quite vocal about it compared to the critical reception. it is a zelda game, after all.

I just think it's funny how many times I've seen you post something like that, so sure that the people who love the game aren't seeing things as clearly as you. the way you always frame that argument puts your opinion on a pedestal and seeks to invalidate the opinion of others. that's pretty much it. it's not that you don't like the game or think the reception could cool in the future, it's the smugness with which you present your opinion.
watershed
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(03-19-2017, 03:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jobbs

Doesn't happen overnight.

GTA4 has a 98 mc. -- I remember when GTA4 came out. I remember the hype, and the "this game.." type comments for that game.

I can't speak for all people, but it certainly seems that a lot of people don't like GTA4 now. I'm certainly one of them.

Right now people are blinded by how amazing it is that a dog spins when you spin (but it can't fetch a stick) or saying "this game..." because a horse ate an apple but the excitement of simple, shallow, pointless interactions with a game do wear off eventually.



I mean we're in a thread made by a developer who was fairly critical of the game.

Also GTA4 98
MGS4 94

Again you are actively living out confirmation bias. There is nothing wrong with your opinion. You didn't enjoy the game as much as others have. As you say, you liked the game yourself. That's fine. But what if, your opinion is a minority opinion and not representative of the majority or the critical consensus of BOTW? Maybe, just maybe most people who play the game like it more than you do. It seems like you can't let that go. You need to be right about how this game isn't as great as other people say it is and you're employing some pretty disingenuous mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion like "when real human beings play this game, they'll agree with me."
Jobbs
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(03-19-2017, 03:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by sanstesy

It's not like some people don't have the same complaints as you do, Jobbs. There are actually multiple people that have voiced similar complaints. It's just that not everyone is weighing these the same way as you do. Games are not checklists and never were rated as such.

And it's getting kind of weird that you post your feelings about Breath of the Wild in every relatable thread imaginable as you were every time posting them for the first time as well. You could almost copy paste them at this point. But do what you do.

That's fair. For me, the game was exciting and amazing for 15 hours and by the time I'd done 2 or 3 divine beasts and a lot of shrines it was just.. Utterly boring. I felt obligated to just get on with it by going through the last boring divine beast and the last boring boss and the horribly boring and anticlimactic castle finale.

The reason for the boredom is the game taught me the only incentive to explore is just more of the same shit you've already found. More hearts don't matter after 13. More weapons aren't fun to find because they all play the same and break quickly. Getting new armor is always fun but it's relatively rare and because the game is so easy and there are no new combat challenges to meet it just doesn't feel like it matters. They did a terrible job at presenting the player with more challenges beyond the opening hours and they did a terrible job with populating the world with a variety of things to see and do.

It's a good game, yes. I like the game, and I think it's absolutely the right overall direction for the series... But it feels like, again, they've taken steps in the right direction but they're just not there yet.

Originally Posted by watershed

Again you are actively living out confirmation bias. There is nothing wrong with your opinion. You didn't enjoy the game as much as others have. As you say, you liked the game yourself. That's fine. But what if, your opinion is a minority opinion and not representative of the majority or the critical consensus of BOTW? Maybe, just maybe most people who play the game like it more than you do. It seems like you can't let that go. You need to be right about how this game isn't as great as other people say it is and you're employing some pretty disingenuous mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion like "when real human beings play this game, they'll agree with me."

I've encountered more people saying a low score is not valid (the 7/10 stuff). I think everyone's entitled to their opinion. If you think the game is a 10/10, you're not wrong.

Just looking at the game and its actual qualities I think there'll be something of a backlash as time passes. If you still think it's a 10/10 a year from now, that's fair. I won't take that away from you and that wasn't the point of my posts.
Last edited by Jobbs; 03-19-2017 at 03:37 AM.
LotusHD
Member
(03-19-2017, 03:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Shamrock7r

I won't hate on anyone who prefers more classic dungeons. I prefer the shrines as I felt Zelda's dungeons were getting ridiculously long to finish, but I know that is just a preference for me.

I'm surprised as to how much I ended up liking shrines. Relatively brief, and figuring how the puzzles, or shortcuts to the puzzles, is so satisfying to me. Whereas dungeons, I admittedly tend to take forever to figure shit out sometimes, and they take up so much time to fully explore. I love them anyways, but yea, I welcome this shake-up so far.

Originally Posted by phanphare

to be clear I'm sure there are people who don't/won't like breath of the wild and will be quite vocal about it. it is a zelda game, after all.

I just think it's funny how many times I've seen you post something like that, so sure that the people who love the game aren't seeing things as clearly as you. the way you always frame that argument puts your opinion on a pedestal and seeks to invalidate the opinion of others. that's pretty much it. it's not that you don't like the game or think the reception could cool in the future, it's the smugness with which you present your opinion.

Yep.
Lilo_D
Member
(03-19-2017, 03:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by watershed

Again you are actively living out confirmation bias. There is nothing wrong with your opinion. You didn't enjoy the game as much as others have. As you say, you liked the game yourself. That's fine. But what if, your opinion is a minority opinion and not representative of the majority or the critical consensus of BOTW? Maybe, just maybe most people who play the game like it more than you do. It seems like you can't let that go. You need to be right about how this game isn't as great as other people say it is and you're employing some pretty disingenuous mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion like "when real human beings play this game, they'll agree with me."

The 'real human' part is disgusting and I don't respect his opinion now
Now I will definitely see this person jumping around in GOTY threads later this year
Hope gaff has personal ban system
MiamiWesker
(03-19-2017, 03:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Shamrock7r

Just off the top of my head


Moblins (various types)
Bokoblins
Lizard (various elemental types)
The night time Skeletons (I think there are around 4 or 5 different ones)
The Octo monsters (various typed)
The small rock enemies
The dancing wizards with the elemental rods
The gooey eyeball guys that throw the fire skulls
The Bat enemies (various elemental types)
The chuys? (the bubbly enemies that explode, various elemental types)
The Yiga Clan guys
Hinnox
Skull Hinnox
The Giant Rock mini boss (various elemental versions)
the Centaurs
The Guardians (various types)
The Heli Guardians
The wildlife that attacks you such as the wolves


I mean, again, you can always have more variety, and like I said, I think they could have used some more basic enemies, but you are being a little unfair in your description. I do agree with you that the main bosses at the dungeons were pretty weak in comparison to previous games.

I think the problem is past zelda games had this much variety if not more and they are no where close to as big. The bigger you get the more things you need to put in.

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