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HonMirin
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:43 PM)

Originally Posted by Bizmarkie76

Normal male behavior

No. No it's not.
gutter_trash
(03-20-2017, 11:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by iShouldGoPro

what is bro culture?

Seriously?

Like a Cliq hive mind type
Rozart
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by funkystudent

So we know Edmonton is working on EA Destiny 2k18 but will they also be making another Dragon Age?

If I remember correctly some big Dragon Age names left somewhat recently too. Is that IP in limbo?



Unless this game sells gangbusters I am not expecting a new Mass Effect for a long time if ever. And EA just Dead Space 3 it with 1 bad game nuking a franchise. Curious what will mean for the future of the Montreal studio.

There are two Edmonton teams if I'm not mistaken. The Dragon Age team and the OG Mass Effect team who are now working on EADestiny.
Zeusy
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:44 PM)
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this really saddens me :'(
Conduit
Banned
(03-20-2017, 11:44 PM)
Damn!

mreddie
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by iShouldGoPro

what is bro culture?



Basically male jerks all about sports and women.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by iShouldGoPro

what is bro culture?

In crowds and out crowds.
Ralemont
not me
(03-20-2017, 11:46 PM)
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There's probably more than a grain of truth to the idea that Edmonton is royalty and everyone else needs to cater to their whims. Austin's Shadow Realms was cancelled basically because people from Edmonton played it and were very unimpressed.

Not convinced it's unearned though.
MasterMenace
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lunafreya Nox Fleuret

Is the thread title meant to be the word disturbing, btw?

Sorry for the misspelling.
bethore
Junior Member
(03-20-2017, 11:48 PM)
Is this any different from other studios? It's common knowledge that developers are put under extreme levels of stress and the "crunch" is a normal part of most AAA game development. Amy Henning did an interview about the development cycle of the Uncharted games she worked on and the long hours it involved.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ngs-gotta-give

The Uncharted series is both a critical and commercial success so we don't really hear the stories of the hard work put into them, but we constantly hear the news of other studios all over being closed down over the years. Mass Effect just happened to be a game that didn't live up to expectations so now the attention is on Bioware.
Ramenman
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Gamer @ Heart

Ehhhh. Glass door is an anonymous site.

While this could be true, threads like these based on one post and ignoring the other positive reviews of the place are disingenuous.

We need press sneak fuck on the case to actually confirm sources.

Yeah, really.

I mean this kind of horror story (sadly) could happen in any kind of big games company (poor project management, core of bad leads that protect each other and their egos, too much overtime, etc).

Hopefully Kotaku or someone else is working on one of their big long-form articles about "why did this go bad"
Stormblessed
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:48 PM)
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I don't know that I buy any of that. BioWare wear their politics on their sleeve - it's very difficult to imagine that any part of it is steeped in "Bro Culture". It seems more like someone identified a troubled release from a highly visible but polarising studio, and constructed a story to explain how things went wrong in a way that makes the studio look bad. A number of elements they've included seem intended to discourage skepticism.

If a games journalist is prepared to do some real legwork, this would be a fine thing to look into.
B.O.O.M
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Van Bur3n

Andromeda was just a prank against Edmonton.

Seems plausible
Trago
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vinc

It's not like it was sabotage. If they couldn't get everything implemented on time and on budget, there's nothing they could do.

The thing about game development is that it involves making a lot of assumptions and bets, and taking a lot of technical risks. Devs in different departments can be spending months developing features that they EXPECT will work, but some tools programmer could have been wrong in an assumption and make the whole thing fall apart. Then the decision becomes do we rebuild everything to fit reality, or do we attempt to fix the tools to accomodate the work that was already done? Then they could attempt to do it and fail, causing even more lost time and money, etc.

EA could never justify doubling a game's budget, for instance, just to POTENTIALLY fix it.

And with hundreds of people on payrolls, it's not like you can stop a train that already departed the station, take a step back, tell everyone to stay home for a while with no salary, and get started again once everything is figured out. That's why having very experienced people in management positions is very valuable, and why ambition can be costly if not kept under control in a healthy pre-production cycle. But even that doesn't guarantee smooth sailing in game dev.

Very well put. But surely with a game as important to the company as a new installment of a popular IP, there should be extra steps taken to make sure things go smoothly. Or at least better than what we got.

This seems like a problem with AAA games. Although I guess poor managements could ruin any project.
Zasa
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by RexNovis

I guess we know why the sex scenes have demonstrably better animation than any other scenes in the game. Thanks bro culture... -_-

Think you have bro culture confused with Japanese weebo culture ;)
funkystudent
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by marzlapin

They haven't said publicly that they're working on Dragon Age but the rumor is that they are.

Ok I wouldn't be shocked if they are.

Despite its many flaws, Inquisition came out at a good time when people wanted a meaty game on console. It probably did fine.
RulkezX
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:50 PM)
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Given the mess the game is in maybe Edmonton's attitude is justified.

Glass door is great, but it's also full of salty ex employees shit talking companies anonymously. Maybe the management had a bad attitude because a flagship franchise was shaping up to be a mess.
Cerium
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by sibarraz

I have seen this term thrown a lot lately, but what is crunch?

Real Emails
Aaron
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stormblessed

I don't know that I buy any of that. BioWare wear their politics on their sleeve - it's very difficult to imagine that any part of it is steeped in "Bro Culture". It seems more like someone identified a troubled release from a highly visible but polarising studio, and constructed a story to explain how things went wrong in a way that makes the studio look bad. A number of elements they've included seem intended to discourage skepticism.

If a games journalist is prepared to do some real legwork, this would be a fine thing to look into.

This game wasn't made by the Bioware you're familiar with though. They're working on an new IP. This is the C squad.
Baron_Calamity
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lifeline

That leaked footage comparison, wtf happened?

My guess is while Bioware was learning Frostbite 3 and building tools, they created a significant amount content in Unreal 4. Mostly for prototyping. The port did not go well. That's my guess.
Big Nikus
Member
(03-20-2017, 11:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gamer @ Heart

Ehhhh. Glass door is an anonymous site.

While this could be true, threads like these based on one post and ignoring the other positive reviews of the place are disingenuous.

We need press sneak fuck on the case to actually confirm sources.

Originally Posted by Aurongel

dGlass doordoesn't verify shit and has never been a good measurement for anything in the software industry. In my experience, its usually a conduit for frustrated engineers to vent about their employer behind a veil of unverifiable anonymity.

It might sound plausible given the product but none of this is even remotely worthy of discussion. Plus those criticisms are things that I hear (rightfully so) about the industry as a whole so it's not really indicative of some sort of larger causative relationship. I've read similar criticisms of developers who've shipped GOTY candidates and commercial blockbusters.

Originally Posted by K.Jack

Wer're trusting Glassdoor now?

The negative stuff posted on there about Star Citizen got eviscerated on this forum.

I do see why people would want to believe it about Bioware, and not CIG though.

Thing is, GAF is out for blood right now, total berserk mode. Even though OP pointed out that the subject of the thread is to be taken with a grain of salt, any thread related to BioWare will see dozens of brutal comments for no other reason than "this game I haven't played has some funny animations". Good reviews are ignored, as well as positive opinions, it's just... I don't know what's happening really. Not even counting the employee getting harassed because holy shit it shoud have made people regain their senses for a sec but no, let's double down. Even shinobi, one of the most chill posters in the history of GAF has left and don't want to come back because a lot of shitty accusations were thrown at him.
You can find negative reviews for any company on glassdoor but this week the cool thing to do is hate on BioWare so let's take a review from mid-2016 and ignore all the positive ones to keep the hate train rolling.
I'm sure shitty stuff happens at BioWare like everywhere in the industry but the amount of shit getting thrown at the company as a whole, the employees and the game is just insane.
Last edited by Big Nikus; 03-21-2017 at 12:00 AM.
Darth Chief 117
Junior Member
(03-20-2017, 11:59 PM)
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No way! Supposed former employee says bad things about former employee when the gaming media's light is firmly upon said company?! Definitely true, bring me my pitchfork so I can march on the streets.

Game firmly in mid to high 70's on meta, tough time to be reviewed after Zelda and Horizon. It's just easy to be go with the crowd and moan about something that's actually got a good not great score because why not, if it's not a 9 it must be bad, let's set it and all who follow it alight!!
Last edited by Darth Chief 117; 03-21-2017 at 12:04 AM.
GlamFM
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Baron_Calamity

My guess is while Bioware was learning Frostbite 3 and building tools, they created a significant amount content in Unreal 4. Mostly for prototyping. The port did not go well. That's my guess.

A friend of mine with some insight thinks it's part of a Bioware artists show-reel and that it's not representative of the game in any state of its development.

Would make a ton of sense.
AlexFlame116
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zasa

Think you have bro culture confused with Japanese weebo culture ;)

???

Originally Posted by Cerium

Real Emails

Oh wow hahaha!!!!!
Swiggins
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cerium

Real Emails

Wow Nintendo...
AlexFlame116
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by Darth Chief 117

No way! Supposed former employee says bad things about former employee when the gaming media's light is firmly upon said company?! Definitely true, bring me my pitchfork so I can match on the streets.

Okay cool great. What else you got?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
(03-21-2017, 12:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Big Nikus

Thing is, GAF is out for blood right now, total berserk mode. Even though OP pointed out that the subject of the thread is to be taken with a grain of salt, any thread related to BioWare will see dozens of brutal comments for no other reason than "this game I haven't played has some funny animations". Good reviews are ignored, as well as positive opinions, it's just... I don't know what's happening really. Not even counting the employee getting harassed because holy shit it shoud have made people regain their senses for a sec but no, let's double down. Even shinobi, one of the most chill posters in the history of GAF has left and don't want to come back because a lot of shitty accusations were thrown at him.
You can find negative reviews for any company on glassdoor but this week the cool thing to do is hate on BioWare so let's take a review from mid-2016 and ignore all the positive ones to keep the hate train rolling.
I'm sure shitty stuff happens at BioWare like everywhere in the industry but the amount of shit getting thrown at the company as a whole, the employees and the game is just insane.

ND has a one star review from a former QA tester. We should seriously be worried about TLOU2 as a result.
Darth Chief 117
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by AlexFlame116

Okay cool great. What else you got?

What else would you like?
HueyFreeman
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by MasterMenace


*list*

This whole list makes it seem somehow like Bioware Edmonton (which we shouldn't even refer to that way - it's Bioware, the actual company, while BMontreal is a spin-off) is somehow the problem, when there's never been anything but positivity about the way things work there, the culture and the people there (it was at one point named one of the top companies in Canada to work for). There have certainly never been the suggestion of bro culture. EA is the problem here - they are killing the company the same way we've seen them kill almost every other studio they work with and EAs management of Bioware Montreal is the reason we see what we're seeing with MEA.

It really rubs me the wrong way Montreal blaming Bioware Edmonton (ie. Bioware).
AlexFlame116
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by Darth Chief 117

What else would you like?

Hmm...make it more like a heart wrenching story. With the power to make me cry!
Danis Saur
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:05 AM)
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Holy fuck the facial animation of the 2016 version is great!

Wow.
m_dorian
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:06 AM)
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Very sad if true.
Darth Chief 117
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by AlexFlame116

Hmm...make it more like a heart wrenching story. With the power to make me cry!

To be fair it sounds like you'd fall for it so probably not a good idea.
Darknessbear
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by iShouldGoPro

thanks!

i didn't have a clue that video game dev offices would be like that.
always pictured a straight laced setting, i guess

Yep, absolutely. I've worked at a few game companies so far and it's really difficult to work when they force the Touch Football games every hour and the frequent "drink offs". Also it is a fireable offense if you don't refer to your coworkers as "bro" or "broseph" and woman as "babes".

sorry bout that overly sarcasticness. All the companies I worked at and know about aren't even close to that kind of culture. I'm sure that's more of a Lawyer, stock broker, marketing department thing... Not sure who started this idea that all game devs are womanizing bro's.
AlexFlame116
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Darth Chief 117

To be fair it sounds like you'd fall for it so probably not a good idea.

Haha you may be right! Then again, evidence does help when something needs to be proven.
Stone Ocean
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:08 AM)
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Just what the fuck happened after that 2016 footage? The final footage barely has any discerneable facial expressions, it's like watching a cutscene from a game in the 90's where characters have static expressions.
Zasa
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by AlexFlame116

???

Just a bad joke on my part
Goldenroad
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:09 AM)
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Not to comment on the other issues, but our painters union agreement states that we get either a half hour paid lunch or an hour unpaid. Personally I always take the half hour paid, if I can, since that means I'm leaving a half hour earlier and never really had a problem with it.
NHale
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Madness

Or maybe Montreal tried to think it was as capable as Edmonton and then when issues piled up and Edmonton brought in they got resentful. Keep in mind Edmonton is the flagship studio. Montreal was new and unproven. One thing building an MP for ME3 and whatnot. Another to make a 50-100 hour game and an MP and a DLC and whatnot.

I blame EA for this. There is a reason the founders departed, how many studios have they caused issues for? Series they have run into the ground like Medal of Honor, Burnout, The Sims etc. They don't care about Mass Effect. They want to print money with Battlefront 2, and the 2 other Star Wara games being made by Respawn, Visceral etc.

If they didn't cared about the IP they would never put their resources to make another one. In every story there is always 2 versions, and to me this seems like a very complicated story that we will probably never know. But the facts are the current state of the game, the lack of marketing from EA that definitely looked like they didn't want to take any more risks with the game by injecting money to a big marketing campaign which would make their ROI even more difficult to achieve and also the fact that neither Microsoft or Sony decided to sign a marketing deal for the game which to me always felt weird.

To me the reaction to this by EA/Bioware will tell a lot of their commitment to the franchise in the long run, they need to turn this negative reaction and make a good lasting impression of the game. Keep patching it and improving it (even Deep Silver/Dambuster Studios made this for Homefront The Revolution, so they don't have any excuses not to keep working in the game) and also make all DLC free. Steps like that would at least make sure the biggest Mass Effect fans don't jump ship.
Patryn
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by funkystudent

So we know Edmonton is working on EA Destiny 2k18 but will they also be making another Dragon Age?

If I remember correctly some big Dragon Age names left somewhat recently too. Is that IP in limbo?

I know that David Gaidar, the previous head writer, left. But Patrick Weekes, who I consider one of Bioware's best writers, has taken over. And the first piece of content he worked on was Trespasser, which was pretty universally praised as far as I can tell by those who played it.

Mike Laidlaw, the Creative Director for Dragon Age, is still around.
Snagret
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by bethore

Is this any different from other studios? It's common knowledge that developers are put under extreme levels of stress and the "crunch" is a normal part of most AAA game development. Amy Henning did an interview about the development cycle of the Uncharted games she worked on and the long hours it involved.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ngs-gotta-give

The Uncharted series is both a critical and commercial success so we don't really hear the stories of the hard work put into them, but we constantly hear the news of other studios all over being closed down over the years. Mass Effect just happened to be a game that didn't live up to expectations so now the attention is on Bioware.

Crunch time isn't unusual but it still shouldn't be normalized. It's an abusive practice that overworks employees and ultimately hurts creative output.

If everything else in the op is true, that's really sad and gross. Hopefully the people that left can find a better work environment somewhere else, hopefully they can fix their toxic work culture but these things can be really hard to reverse without significant structural changes and proper disciplinary action against those creating this environment.
Sword Of Doom
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Swiggins

Holy shit, the game on the right actually looks like a Mass Effect game...

.
riotous
(03-21-2017, 12:11 AM)
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Nothing here really all that disturbing to me; even if 100% true.

This part in particularly made me not really trust this person's impressions of things:

Putting people on performance improvement program (PIP Program) is the new tactics to get rid of people.

I mean.. if your performance is poor, there's a good chance a company will get rid of you. That doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory; it sounds like basic logic. If you have to be reprimanded at work your job is at stake.

The HR stuff is pretty common across all industries, not just software or gaming. HR is there for serious complaints like sexism or someone being abusive; it's not there for you to complain about company policy.
AlexFlame116
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zasa

Just a bad joke on my part

Oh crap! I didn't mean to quote you! My bad!
Jinroh
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:11 AM)
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What the hell happened? Did they actually spend resources to downgrade the damn game? It's not just the dude's animation which is different, all the assets look worse...
Permanently A
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Big Nikus

Even shinobi, one of the most chill posters in the history of GAF has left and don't want to come back because a lot of shitty accusations were thrown at him.

wait what happened?
Blastoise
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:12 AM)
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The difference in quality between the leak and final build is insane. Animation, effects, and facial expressions are on another level.
BiggNife
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Permanently A

wait what happened?

A lot of people accused him of being a shill for Bioware. The first MEA review thread was locked because people wouldn't shut up about it.
LegalEagleMike
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Permanently A

wait what happened?

Lots of accusations of him being a paid shill.
Schlorgan
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by NHale

If they didn't cared about the IP they would never put their resources to make another one. In every story there is always 2 versions, and to me this seems like a very complicated story that we will probably never know. But the facts are the current state of the game, the lack of marketing from EA that definitely looked like they didn't want to take any more risks with the game by injecting money to a big marketing campaign which would make their ROI even more difficult to achieve and also the fact that neither Microsoft or Sony decided to sign a marketing deal for the game which to me always felt weird.

To me the reaction to this by EA/Bioware will tell a lot of their commitment to the franchise in the long run, they need to turn this negative reaction and make a good lasting impression of the game. Keep patching it and improving it (even Deep Silver/Dambuster Studios made this for Homefront The Revolution, so they don't have any excuses not to keep working in the game) and also make all DLC free. Steps like that would at least make sure the biggest Mass Effect fans don't jump ship.

I've seen Playstation commercials (basically sizzle reels) with Mass Effect along with Infinite Warfare and The Show.

Not sure if that counts.

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