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Alpha Phoenix
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(03-21-2017, 12:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

it's more likely that was some kind of showreel or demo so it probably had animations that were specifically for those rigs, which might have changed for the final build.

that ryder looks a lot better, though.

If you're implying those animations aren't possible on current consoles, then no, they are absolutely doable.

It does look like someone else took over.
AaronMT86
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:16 AM)
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I refuse to support these shady business tactics, I will not be purchasing Andromeda.
Vigilant Walrus
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:16 AM)
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We've been here before. Several times. Now more than ever, it's important we remain skeptical of anonymous sources until we have confirmation.

I worked for a company that was story-based titan of gaming that got bought out by a company famous for throwing money at everything and still putting mediocrity out. I always thought it was ironic that our dominance started to fade when other companies began to succeed on a formula a female designer had pitched years before, that we had ignored: minimizing combat and focusing more heavily on story. I always wondered what might have happened if she had been listened to, taken seriously. My company was content to chase MMORPGs in a dying market and content to suffer through multiple layoffs.








The toxicity also extends to fans. Remember during the Dragon Age 2 era:

A Polygon article on the wider issue of developer harassment in the Games Industry has revealed that Jennifer Hepler, a senior writer on Dragon Age II and the upcoming Dragon Age: Inquisition, left Bioware this week to go freelance - after being at the centre of an internet abuse storm for her work on the series last year.

Hepler first came to the internet's attention when Dragon Age II released to decent reviews, yet also vociferous fan backlash against the game. The game's writing had drawn the ire of long time fans who didn't think the scope of the story and the characters matched with the wildly popular original, Dragon Age: Origins. At the same time angry fans dug up an interview Hepler had given to the website Killer Betties almost 6 years before the release of Dragon Age II. The original interview is no longer available on Killer Betties (archive here), but Hepler's old comments on video games as a writer lit the touchpaper to what would become a shameful act of harassment and abuse on the behalf of Video game fans




And of course Greg and Ray themselves who couldn't "handle" the criticisms they received from legions of fans who told them to fuck off.

The entire symbiosis at work here is highly problematic. If what these glass doors reviews are true- Then that is a damn shame. A quick google search shows you many anecdotals from anonymous claiming similar thing- That they have an outragous amounts of contracted workers who are let go, with little notice which ruins them.

I have no idea if any of that is true.One should be skeptical, but suffice to say- Over the last dozens of years more and more things have piled up that give a toxic impression of Bioware as a place of work and the fanbase which is passionate but also have fanatical subcultures. AND I mean fanatical in anything from erotica based fanfiction and fanart to homophobia and anger towards samesex romance options in the games and accusations that Bioware is being PC.


It is not unusual for people to become possessive, entitled and hostile towards fiction they care deeply about. George RR Martin lack of being able to finish his book and the anger from the fans of Ice of Ice and Fire, are a good example of consumers in other mediums who seriously need to take a step back and fucking reevaulate.


However- The disappointment and expectatons evolving Bioware are relatively unique and associated with a few individuals. Kojima and Bungie are two who also have rapid scrutiny, hype and idolization. The expectations for story, lore and gameplay are a lot higher than for your usual EA or Ubisoft game. The devoted fanbases go hands in hands with people on the flanks who don't keep their disappointment and hype consistent, but who attack or berade outside the artistic and technical attributes of the game.


I said back then that I condemn the ridicule of Greg and Ray, as I do with all other Bioware employees who've been harassed. Same goes for the hatred against BW Austin and the anger against James Ohlen and the other leads who orchestrated the SWTOR fiasco. The most expensive disappointment in the history of gaming, and also one of the largest.
That project was so gigantic it might have broken Bioware, but none of these people deserve harassment.

They'd never have used that terrible engine if they had known it would perform like that. It was a total sham- A switch and bait, and by the time MMO devs realized that this engine was a disaster, it was too late to go back and re-do it. Bungie ran into similar problems with their engine with Destiny. You *cannot* fix a ship if the ship is beyond fucked. But engine contractors tend to promise support and fixes and the world, and then you're stuck.

What has happened over the last many years at Bioware is terrible. Bioware the darling for many years. They revolutionized gaming narrative. This was the studio where the hardest job was being the writer. It was infamous for being a place where writers had to go through a trial of fire.
GlamFM
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

it's more likely that was some kind of showreel

Yep. As I said, a friend with some insight thinks that's what it is.
BossDarkseid
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by funkystudent

So we know Edmonton is working on EA Destiny 2k18 but will they also be making another Dragon Age?

If I remember correctly some big Dragon Age names left somewhat recently too. Is that IP in limbo?



Unless this game sells gangbusters I am not expecting a new Mass Effect for a long time if ever. And EA just Dead Space 3 it with 1 bad game nuking a franchise. Curious what will mean for the future of the Montreal studio.

I don't think DA is in Limbo, from what the various creatives say on twitter...not that they are working on 4 per se but certainly still on the IP. There are obviously lots of stories to tell, as well as more immediate stories about Solas etc, but I guess it's about what direction they go in. It's been well documented that BioWare didn't expect the backlash to Inq's side content because they never expected a majority of people to actually go for it, so there is a redressing to be done there. Mark Darrah mentioned in an interview he wanted them to have a game that was equal in the volume of content to Baldurs Gate 2, but acknowledged the difficulty of creating unique content in a 3D engine that quickly....I kinda suspect we will get a lower budget DA4 that perhaps allows them to do more with less.
Lime
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(03-21-2017, 12:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Big Nikus

Thing is, GAF is out for blood right now, total berserk mode. Even though OP pointed out that the subject of the thread is to be taken with a grain of salt, any thread related to BioWare will see dozens of brutal comments for no other reason than "this game I haven't played has some funny animations". Good reviews are ignored, as well as positive opinions, it's just... I don't know what's happening really. Not even counting the employee getting harassed because holy shit it shoud have made people regain their senses for a sec but no, let's double down.
You can find negative reviews for any company on glassdoor but this week the cool thing to do is hate on BioWare so let's take a review from mid-2016 and ignore all the positive ones to keep the hate train rolling.
I'm sure shitty stuff happens at BioWare like everywhere in the industry but the amount of shit getting thrown at the company as a whole, the employees and the game is just insane.

You're mistaking "hunting for blood" for understanding what went wrong with the production of Mass Effect Andromeda. We have clear signs and evidence of the troubled production that the game has been through with the subpar character creator, the atrocious facial animations, the departure of employees throughout the project, the lack of squad abilities, the many, many bugs, the weird marketing, the sudden announcement of a release date, the cancellation of Multiplayer beta, and so forth.

I don't know about hate train or anything, but this is more a conversation about what might have went wrong and not some kind of witch hunt or hate train or whatever you want to label it. By sticking our heads into the ground, we ignore what things went wrong that lead to the game and its developers suffering to such an extent that an unpolished and subpar game is released at the end.

Frankly, it's intellectually bankrupt to think this is just some "it's cool to hate on Bioware or something, when what people wants to do is understand what went wrong. This doesn't mean that the Glass Ceiling thing is correct or true, just that people are looking for answers after such a 5-year performance by multiple studios and hundreds of talented people.
texhnolyze
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:19 AM)
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Damn.. That's pretty sad.
Screamapillar
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(03-21-2017, 12:21 AM)
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Given the overall consensus taken from pretty much every review, "Some really good ideas marred by a messy and somewhat broken end product", the above allegations must be at least somewhat true. If the game was getting overwhelmingly positive praise from across the industry, it would signal good development, not troubled development.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable Jason Schreier story on this game's troubled creation, from start to finish.

Sadly, many of the issues ive seen in the issues seem like they couldve been ironed out or improved with six months of polish. The game is just unpolished. Shouldve been delayed til August or September.

"A bad game is always bad, but a delayed game is eventually good."
Vipu
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(03-21-2017, 12:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Lifeline

That leaked footage comparison, wtf happened?

Consoles + reality happened.
GlamFM
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(03-21-2017, 12:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Screamapillar

Given the overall consensus taken from pretty much every review, "Some really good ideas marred by a messy and somewhat broken end product", the above allegations must be at least somewhat true. If the game was getting overwhelmingly positive praise from across the industry, it would signal good development, not troubled development.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable Jason Schreier story on this game's troubled creation, from start to finish.

Sadly, many of the issues ive seen in the issues seem like they couldve been ironed out or improved with six months of polish. The game is just unpolished. Shouldve been delayed til August or September.

"A bad game is always bad, but a delayed game is eventually good."

Good development does not equal good game and vice versa.
Chumley
Banned
(03-21-2017, 12:22 AM)

Originally Posted by iShouldGoPro

what is bro culture?

Cliques and people who know eachother sticking around who they know, not being friendly to new people, doesn't necessarily only apply to men either.

It happens everywhere, happened on a movie set I worked on last year. Some people never grow out of high school.
AlexFlame116
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vipu

Consoles + reality happened.

Reality yes. Consoles, source?
Hari Seldon
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(03-21-2017, 12:25 AM)
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When you go from putting out some of the best games of the last generation to... whatever it is they are putting out now, it is clear that management is the problem.
Taelus
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:26 AM)
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This whole game's development could make for an interesting documentary.
Alpha Phoenix
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by AaronMT86

I refuse to support these shady business tactics, I will not be purchasing Andromeda.

Unfortunately, this is all too common in video game development, even the tech industry in general.
benzy
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by BiggNife

A lot of people accused him of being a shill for Bioware. The first MEA review thread was locked because people wouldn't shut up about it.

Man that sucks. I'm disappointed in you gaf. He was easily one of the best members on here.
Stormblessed
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(03-21-2017, 12:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaron

This game wasn't made by the Bioware you're familiar with though. They're working on an new IP. This is the C squad.

What we've seen of the studio culture of the various teams under the BioWare umbrella suggests they're all rather progressive. This anonymous post is so far the only thing I've seen that contradicts this.

Originally Posted by Darknessbear

Yep, absolutely. I've worked at a few game companies so far and it's really difficult to work when they force the Touch Football games every hour and the frequent "drink offs". Also it is a fireable offense if you don't refer to your coworkers as "bro" or "broseph" and woman as "babes".

sorry bout that overly sarcasticness. All the companies I worked at and know about aren't even close to that kind of culture. I'm sure that's more of a Lawyer, stock broker, marketing department thing... Not sure who started this idea that all game devs are womanizing bro's.

It's certainly the most out of place part of the whole thing. From the stories we got from Jeff Green about what it was like to work at EA, I really, really don't think "Bro Culture" could survive at any of its subsidiaries.
HoodWinked
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(03-21-2017, 12:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by GlamFM

Good development does not equal good game and vice versa.

yup red dead redemption, metal gear rising and sleeping dogs always come to mind for having troubled development only to become incredibly good games.
Schlorgan
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by AaronMT86

I refuse to support these shady business tactics, I will not be purchasing Andromeda.

Guess you can't buy any more video games ever then. xD
Last edited by Schlorgan; 03-21-2017 at 12:32 AM.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
(03-21-2017, 12:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by AaronMT86

I refuse to support these shady business tactics, I will not be purchasing Andromeda.

Just as an example, you're quite active in the BOTW OT. Do you think BOTW had rocky smooth development with absolutely no crunch when the team was told to cut Wii U specific features which led to rewrites and to make sure the game was ready for the Switch launch? Or is the game "good enough" that you can overlook what likely was very troubled development considering multiple delays, the creation of a new engine, cut features and crunch added due to having to be ready for the Switch's launch date, (which considering the performance issues, it isn't). Subsequently do you not consider those to be shady practices?
Last edited by Crossing Eden; 03-21-2017 at 12:32 AM.
bonesmccoy
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:28 AM)
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'castastrophy'

QA tester?

😉😉😉
PodcastFips
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(03-21-2017, 12:31 AM)
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Anyone could write that review, right?
BreezyLimbo
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(03-21-2017, 12:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by realcZk

Say this was true, regarding the animation quality reduction -- why?

I'm trying to understand this from a development perspective. Maybe they had to animate by hand for each scene and it was too much work so it was scraped for a less expressive (the current) animation system that just animates based off dialogue? That's the only excuse I can think of for it. (I know little about game development, just trying to make a logical justification for the changes).

They mightve figured it wasnt feasible to make the whole game reflect the fidelity of the leaked scene, so they decide to scrap those animations, particles, renders and effects to keep the consistency.
Darknessbear
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(03-21-2017, 12:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stormblessed

What we've seen of the studio culture of the various teams under the BioWare umbrella suggests they're all rather progressive. This anonymous post is so far the only thing I've seen that contradicts this.



It's certainly the most out of place part of the whole thing. From the stories we got from Jeff Green about what it was like to work at EA, I really, really don't think "Bro Culture" could survive at any of its subsidiaries.

Yeaa, most of us aren't that cool to be even considered bro's. Artists, programmers and designers aren't known for their bro-ness. There are definitely some at every studio (depending how you define a "bro"), but they are always in the minority (from where I worked) and don't usually have that much influence on anything creative.

Also, it's generally really hard to maintain your bro-status when you have a 15" Gandalf figure on your desk.

(sorry for being overly generalizing... just speaking from personal experiences!)
chillybright
Banned
(03-21-2017, 12:40 AM)
If only there is an occupation called journalism that can get the bottom of stuff like this.
Garrett Hawke
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(03-21-2017, 12:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Alpha Phoenix

If you're implying those animations aren't possible on current consoles, then no, they are absolutely doable.

It does look like someone else took over.

i'm not implying that at all :P

i'm implying they changed the face rigs so had to throw away those facial animations, or it was a progress/concept demo of some kind.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:42 AM)
Really a post about an anonymous review from a disgruntled employee? That's where we're at?
Doran902
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(03-21-2017, 12:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by PodcastFips

Anyone could write that review, right?

I believe so yes. The review isn't super far fetched for the gaming industry but there is no way from what I can tell of proving its authenticity.
Ushay
Banned
(03-21-2017, 12:44 AM)
What a shame, this means any updates and fixes for technical issues may be a lost cause :(
bonesmccoy
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(03-21-2017, 12:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Doran902

I believe so yes. The review isn't super far fetched for the gaming industry but there is no way from what I can tell of proving its authenticity.

Sounds like the corporate culture at lots of places. PIPs being used is hardly a new or drastic tactic.
npm0925
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:45 AM)
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Only 30 minutes to eat free lunch. Can someone insert that Wall Street Journal gif of the single parent who only makes $300,000?
Cyanity
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(03-21-2017, 12:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by npm0925

Only 30 minutes to eat free lunch. Can someone insert that Wall Street Journal gif of the single parent who only makes $300,000?


When you're being forced to work 80+ hour weeks, it gets insulting.
jdstorm
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:48 AM)

Originally Posted by GlamFM

Good development does not equal good game and vice versa.

This is true of so many artistic endevors. There are some truely great films which were horrible to work on. For an older example here are some stories from Singing in the rain.

There was a scene where one of the actors had to do a long musical number which included an acrobatic wall run backflip. It took them so many times to get it right that he was hospitalized from exhaustion. The production lost the footage and the actor had to redo the stunt days after being released from hospital.

That films Signature dance number where actor Gene Kelly sings the films title song was filmed at 2am, in a humid 100 degree warehouse while the actor had a raging fever.

Kelly's treatment of female Co Star Debbie Renalds was apparently so bad that he later publicly apologized for it.

Yet somehow they produced one of the best films ever made.
CaptainofIndustry
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(03-21-2017, 12:48 AM)
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Look at all the stuff they let Manveer Heir tweet. I'm not even going to link the tweets, just look at his twitter account. It's no wonder this game is in the shape that it's in. Bioware is a mess and this game is a mess.

Thank God for companies like CD Projekt Red.


Please don't disappoint me CD Projekt Red.
johancruijff
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(03-21-2017, 12:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by Chumley

Cliques and people who know eachother sticking around who they know, not being friendly to new people, doesn't necessarily only apply to men either.

It happens everywhere, happened on a movie set I worked on last year. Some people never grow out of high school.

That just sound like every office everywhere in the world though
a916
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(03-21-2017, 12:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by chillybright

If only there is an occupation called journalism that can get the bottom of stuff like this.

Jason Schreier get on it!
FlyinJ
Douchebag. Yes, me.
(03-21-2017, 12:49 AM)

Originally Posted by Lifeline

That leaked footage comparison, wtf happened?

Probably fired the talented animators because they weren't bro enough to cut it.
TheRedSnifit
Banned
(03-21-2017, 12:54 AM)

Originally Posted by Stormblessed

It's certainly the most out of place part of the whole thing. From the stories we got from Jeff Green about what it was like to work at EA, I really, really don't think "Bro Culture" could survive at any of its subsidiaries.

I don't think "bro culture" means what most people here are saying it means.

It usually just means it's very cliquish.
MarveI
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(03-21-2017, 12:55 AM)
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Sad to see Bioware's downfall. Were one of my fav devs.
meerak
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(03-21-2017, 12:55 AM)
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This squares with some of what I've heard locally about BioWare recently. All grapevine shit, but, is what it is.
NeptunePirate
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(03-21-2017, 12:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by MasterMenace

In addition, take a look at the below video comparing the leaked 2016 MEA footage to the current footage.

https://my.mixtape.moe/yugchn.mp4

Oh man, that is a huge difference. Crazy.
Chumley
Banned
(03-21-2017, 12:56 AM)

Originally Posted by johancruijff

That just sound like every office everywhere in the world though

I dunno, I think it varies, and even if it happens a lot it doesn't mean it's a good thing. It's alienating as fuck and toxic.
SmackAttack
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(03-21-2017, 12:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Big Nikus

Even shinobi, one of the most chill posters in the history of GAF has left and don't want to come back because a lot of shitty accusations were thrown at him..

Wait, really? I may lurk more than post but I really liked shinobi. It blows when a decent argument turns dark fast. Take care, shinobi.
Sizzel
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(03-21-2017, 12:58 AM)
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My understanding from reading the all the information I have is that Montreal is the C team-.firings, leavings whatever further caused a team that primarily worked on DLC to become even shallower, scope got out of hand, milestones blown and it was time to just get it out the door. They didn't have the talent to handle this maybe? It was a bad management decision to have a studio of this experience handle this project?

I also am led to believe they are very progressive/SJW/liberal/ whatever tag you want to throw on and from reading this that might have clashed with overall culture since it is Bro culture apparently. Chads and brads in khakis vs gender fluid purple hairs can be explosive. Work place conflict should be handled by HR or MGMT if employees can't. Again see non responsive HR..which also has management failure all over it.

Regardless I love ME and all shortcomings of the current release fall on managements head. Ultimately it is their call. Who loses? Everyone. Except people who troll ME I guess. Pretty sad. It will sell decently on the name alone and hopefully we get another shot.
Darknessbear
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(03-21-2017, 01:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

i'm not implying that at all :P

i'm implying they changed the face rigs so had to throw away those facial animations, or it was a progress/concept demo of some kind.

To me, it 100% looks like they redid their adaptive facial rigging system they use. Since it's not as simple as making one rig in this game, the characters have to procedurally be able to talk, since hand animating every face would be impossible in this type of game. So I'm sure they went through a ton of tech art solutions and redo's of the overall facial/body rig.
True Fire
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(03-21-2017, 01:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sizzel

I also am led to believe they are very progressive/SJW/liberal/ whatever tag you want to throw on and from reading this that might have clashed with overall culture since it is Bro culture apparently. Chads and brads in khakis vs gender fluid purple hairs can be explosive. Work place conflict should be handled by HR or MGMT if employees can't. Again see non responsive HR..which also has management failure all over it.

Nah, you'd be hard pressed to find any tech company with a quote "gender fluid purple hair" culture.

Bro culture is, in itself, self-destructive. Look at what's happening with Uber right now. Bro culture prioritizes nepotism, forcing team members to compete, and treating the workplace like a clique. Sexual harassment is thrown under the rug, senior employees can get away with anything because they're a part of the "in group"... companies like this are a mess.
HoodWinked
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(03-21-2017, 01:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by MasterMenace

https://my.mixtape.moe/yugchn.mp4

i wonder if the target is just the game running on unreal with all the matured assets, know how, and the gold version in just their attempt to move onto frostbite and troubles with ramping up to it, which makes sense since i'm sure there are tons of people experienced with unreal but much fewer on frostbite outside of sweden. unreal always looked really good when shit was wet.
Kinyou
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(03-21-2017, 01:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by MasterMenace

In addition, take a look at the below video comparing the leaked 2016 MEA footage to the current footage.

https://my.mixtape.moe/yugchn.mp4

Notice how the April 2016 leaked version has dramatically better animations, ESPECIALLY the facial animation when that guy starts coughing. What happened?!
.

Man, this is just depressing. That prototype looks like it would have set a new standard when it comes to a big rpg and facial animation. The final product does the opposite.
Last edited by Kinyou; 03-21-2017 at 01:14 AM.
Stormblessed
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(03-21-2017, 01:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheRedSnifit

I don't think "bro culture" means what most people here are saying it means.

It usually just means it's very cliquish.

Then they should say that, instead of attempting to invoke the image of immature fratboys.
namDa65
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(03-21-2017, 01:12 AM)
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Not supporting this game. Read a couple other reviews as well.

I am very against cultures who put the "old guard" at the top, and refuse to listen to their new employees.

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