Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Why don't they just make her play with the men and cut out all the controversy?
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AFLW block transgender athlete, Hannah Mouncey, from 2018 draft
- Thread starter lush
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SkateorDi3
Member
There are plenty of college intramural sports that have girls and boys on them. My collegiate ultimate Frisbee team had girls
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
It's tricky because the hormone therapy makes her weaker and slower than before, but her bone density and strength still eclipse those of a born woman.
The sheer absurdity of comparing college intramural frisbee to a professional sport is killing me.
cartographer
Member
Because she's not a man.
I think most male leagues have a no exclusion policy.
The problem with female sports in general (with a few major exceptions like tennis) is that they're not popular(with fanbase and participation rate). And to be frank, they're afraid of this killing the participation rate.
Like the womens soccer leagues are incredibly unpopular even compared to MLS, but they do get girls more active and participating in sports at a younger age.
Queen Vulpix
Member
The article didn't mention it when I read it or I missed it so I don't know if Hannah is taking hormone therapy but to my knowledge which significant time on hormone thereapy, i.e 2-3 years, any muscular advantage between the sexes is made moot as testosterone is the main component in building muscles for the most part and Trans women who take hormones have Testosterone levels that of the average Cis woman so any real advantage their wouldn't exist.
As far as bone structure that depends on the person, I am a woman with a slightly larger then average bone structure as are quite a few women in my family however I have a guy friend who bone wise is smaller then most of the other women I have ever seen in my life.
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As to the article itself I'm torn on one hand I believe trans women are women period and Hannah being excluded from competing in the women's league is a bit unfair, however I do understand the concerns over her size and whether her hormone levels have been that of the average cis woman for a significant amount of time as that to me if what causes a far greater potential advantage and would be unfair to the other women if Hannah had the advantage hormonal wise. Hopefully the Olympic requirements regarding this become the standard for all sports going forward.
As for the posters saying why she doesn't play in the Mens league it's because well she's not a man. If she or any transwoman never has undergone hormone therapy thats one things but to my knowledge if she has and for any significant time she would be outclassed far more by the men in the mens league then the women in the womens league would by Hanna. Though I agree there's no perfect solution most of the time.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I didn't say she was. That's not really a good answer either. If she's too strong and dangerous for the women, why not just play with the men?
Where did they say how strong she was? I must have missed that.
cartographer
Member
Because she's not a man. Because making her play in a men's league when she chooses not to and identifies as a woman is insulting to her identity and sending the message of "you aren't really a woman and society won't ever see you that way." Because the science isn't really behind the idea that she's too strong and dangerous for ciswomen. Because HRT does a number on your body and she doesn't have the physical capabilities of a cisman.
In short: it's real shitty.
I disagree at the most fundamental level with the bolded. A sport is just a concept, a bunch of manufactured equipment and arbitrary rules. I do not care about the integrity of such a thing over people.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
True. The harsh truth is that if you're transgendered on either side, you'll face issues. MtF will easily dominate the competition due to the genetic advantages of having been a man.
FtM will have trouble competing die to the genetic advantages his opponents will have due to being men.
The harsh reality of it is that your right to your self image ends long before you get to professional sports. The integrity of the sport is more important than one person's desire to attain their goal of playing professional sports as the gender they identify as. Professional sports are inherently ableist.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
They would allow it for 6 months to a year. When you have the worst ratings of all time for the sport, they would change the rule due to money.
Yes there is. 10nmols is incredibly high for a woman and well outside the range.
This is the normal range for women. Olympics allows 10nmol/L for women
1570 ng/dL (0.522.4 nmol/L)
cartographer
Member
She's reportedly well below that standard. By a few factors, according to some articles, not as though she got 0.1 nmol/L below and called it good.
The Fatal Englishman
Member
It isn't mentioned. However, the AFL also measured her bench press and squat in addition to her weight and height when making their decision.
There probably needs to be a longer period of time on hormone therapy before allowing competition. 1 year out of men's league is not enough. Of course there is also issues like bone density that won't really change regardless.
In the end the issue comes down to whether her biological advantages are so far beyond the league norm that it makes her playing impossible, or are their women in the league who have strength, speed, etc. profiles that within that range already. The other piece of that being, we don't currently put any limits on men or women in sports even if they are exceedingly naturally gifted, some people just have better genetics, so is it then necessary for us to do so with transgender athletes?
In the end the issue comes down to whether her biological advantages are so far beyond the league norm that it makes her playing impossible, or are their women in the league who have strength, speed, etc. profiles that within that range already. The other piece of that being, we don't currently put any limits on men or women in sports even if they are exceedingly naturally gifted, some people just have better genetics, so is it then necessary for us to do so with transgender athletes?
She's below the 10 or within the actual range for women? Not that it matters, like I said, the Olympic range is a problem anyway.
Yeah this is a harsh reality that will just have to be faced, heck I have amblyopia and lack depth perception which means I always had to work twice as hard at ball related sports and means I'l never be any sort of professional athlete.
That a large number of people dedicate their entire lives to, and a much larger number of fans invest their time, money, and emotion to on the basis of (amongst other things) fair competition. Sport goes way beyond what you've described to the point it's a complete nonsense. Caring about the integrity of sports is caring about people.
Great point, could you imagine if a born male had test levels 5 times over high end of the range? Lets say that is 800ng/dl (may be using wrong units), and some guy had 4000ng/dl.
To hit that level you need to inject at least, like bare minimum (and probably more), 1 gram of Test E or C a week, a huge dose, even in the bodybuilding circle.
So yea, thats an issue.
This is just a complicated problem.
cartographer
Member
Well below the 10. If you have any links to scientific articles specifically about why the Olympic range isn't low enough I'd like to read them.
People like Hannah Mouncey? If we purport to care about people, let's care about them instead of saying "integrity of the sport" and moving on.
SkateorDi3
Member
im just offering the poster option to viewing coed sports. Get over yourself.
Bill R Boggess
Member
Agreed.
Even if the women get bigger, so do the men.
How does that solve anything?
This is also true. There may be an initial spike due to the novelty of the whole thing, but it wouldn't take long for people to realize how fucked the competition is. Even if there were rules and regulations in place to make the integration easier, the end result would be far removed from what we have today.
Mixed Basketball on a professional level would be a travesty. The Top WNBA players would become virtually useless if they had to share the court with their NBA counterparts. Even if we ban the Top 20 or 30 NBA players, I don't think people would tune in to watch Austin Rivers and DeAndre Jordan turn into the Second Coming of Kobe & Shaq.
Raven117
Member
Nope it sure isnt. There are practical realities when an individual wants to participate in gender specific sports, especially contact team sports.
Yes, its unfair to her. No, it is not unfair to the rest of the players.
Sometimes, you have to temper fairness with the practical realities of the situation.
AcademicSaucer
Member
CitizenVectron
Member
If biological differences are not allowed to be discussed, then shouldn't men also be allowed to compete against women in all events? Huge biological differences result from birth sex, and that is one of the easiest ways to create separate classes in sports. Even if you allowed both to compete against each other but classified another way (say, weight classes), men (at birth) would still have an advantage to muscle density/mass compared to women.
It's an area that is a tough one because it doesn't easily mesh fair competition with modern values of gender rights.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Imagine a future were all women's teams are filled with transgender women because of the physical advantage much like when basketball teams started filling the court with huge guys like Shaq.
Obviously not likely, but I could see sports teams doing that if it was possible.
Obviously not likely, but I could see sports teams doing that if it was possible.
No, as has been explained again and again and again the people she'd be playing against, who she would have a massive advantage over.
cartographer
Member
OK, so only some people.
Would only be one person in this case if you had your way.
cartographer
Member
So her presence would just ruin a lifelong passion for sports for everybody else associated with the AFL?
Wow, she has a lot of power.
Well that's not what I said. But you obviously don't give a shit about anyone she would play against, their coaches who give up their time, etc etc, is more the point.
Kite
Member
Women can try out for and try the make a NBA and NFL roster, I can't speak for other sports or leagues.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...ilbermans-nfl-tryout-lasts-two-short-kickoffs
http://www.espn.com/espnw/news/article/6527710/women-pros-woman-shoot-nba
cartographer
Member
She's chosen not to as part of her transition. There's a specific women's Australian football system that she has chosen to be a part of.
And her presence ruins all that? The presence of any transgender competitor? If their love and dedication to he sport is fundamentally incompatible with finding a reasonable, achievable and respectful way of inclusion, then yeah, I give zero shits about their time, effort etc. Those that do care about inclusion and want to work to have a defined, reasonable standard, I care about them.
Yamchaphobic much?
Sarcastic Poster
Member
This. The limit atm is absolutely absurd.
Smartest man in the Universe. Yamcha will achieve GOAT status in his sport while Vegeta is off playing Second Fiddle to Goku and raising a disappointing son.
ITT people screaming transphobia and not seeming to understand bilogical, genetic, and sports/exercise science research.
There was no problem with the committees decision. Even if it is a shitty situation for her.
There was no problem with the committees decision. Even if it is a shitty situation for her.
Chezzymann
Member
This is my stance on the issue. Theres just too much of an advantage once puberty kicks in for males.
The ones screaming transphobia are the ones not understanding biology and sports, not the ones going against the Olympic committee because a cis man played tennis against a woman once.
Repeat with me : CIS MEN AND TRANS WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT.
There is a thing called hormone therapy. It is like opposite dopping. Trans women usually have LOWER than average testosterone levels. Also sports players are the ones at the top of what average is.
If you people think because she had a male puberty she still has advantages than I guess cis women should start taking dopping at that age because every single dopping test is only for a few months
thelatestmodel
Junior, please.
Agreed. It's a situation where you're not going to reach a decision that's acceptable for everybody.
I hate that trans people go through this stuff, I wish they didn't and I do sympathize, but situations like this are very tricky.
CebollaDeAbbott
Banned
It's a tough situation.
But the wellbeing of every athlete involved is more important.
In a sport as heavily physical and contact based as Aussie Rules, I would rather the AFL assure the reasonable safety of every participant.
If that safety in wellbeing is in doubt, which the AFL believes to be the case, then I think it's a fair decision.
Hopefully with more seasons and experience, a better solution will arise.
I appreciate where you are coming from but I don't think it's that simple. Like, I'm trans, 5ft1 and weigh 8 stone, people do not know I'm not cis until I disclose that to them, but I started hormones later than 13.
Hormones affect each person differently and it's such a grey area.
I actually don't know what the right solution is here. I think the priority has to be fairness to the other players (at least for now until we know more about trans lives) but I have no idea. Maybe a future where gender as we know it is over and people compete based on comparable size?
If so, I would totally watch short people's football. Think of their little feet!
cartographer
Member
If that's their view they need to present a defined, reasonable standard for transgender athletes to meet. Or, if their view is to never allow transgender women to compete, they need to be public and upfront about their exclusion and change their name to a better fitting one.
What they should not do is wait until the day before to make public that they aren't going to adhere to the IOC standards in this case. I give them credit for them saying this is only for this draft, but only if that's because they have a standard or are developing one and will communicate that to Mouncey and to the public. If it's a false hope, then shame on them.
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