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Edge #236 - GOTY's & Reviews

A

ASIS

Member
Mama Robotnik said:
I've not played Skyward Sword yet. I own it and intend to play it soon. Given how divisive the game appears to be, I'm going to be interested in how I respond to it.

My question is this: If Zelda truly has the best music "by far", I take it you are confirming it actually dwarfs the gameplay-enhancing, meticulously-calculated music and audio of Portal 2? In that game, the music shifts to provide the player with auditory information on the status and active variables in puzzles so that we know what state they are presently in without visual confirmation. The music also uses ambient sounds to weave melody from mechanism, in a feat I have never seen so exceptionally implemented before or since.

I'm asking because I've completed every previous Zelda out there, CDi not withstanding. While the games do usually have excellent music and soundwork, none of them have taken calculated use of shifting music to relay the sheer amount of environmental, puzzle and narrative information that Portal 2 does. The game even uses modernising timeshifts in the Aperture Science anthem to indicate changes in the company from era to era, weaving a hugely realised music timeline to the lore of the game.

I take it from your post that Skyward Sword's music, being "by far" better than any and all competition, utterly destroys Valve's meticulously calculated and delivered work by comparison?

Again, I ask because I've not played it yet.
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Even though I've casually played portal 2 I have to say that I did not pay much attention to the sound quality. But if what you've been saying about it is true then no, SS does not compete.

Read what I've written about SS. It has fantastic sound quality, but I don't think it goes as far as Portal did.
The_Technomancer said:
What's fascinating to me is how often the "its too similar to past games" argument eventually turns into complaints about how its too similar in terms of story. Like...it feels stale because you still play as Link saving Zelda
Click to expand...

It's franchise fatigue, there's really no other explanation for it.
 
Davey Cakes

Davey Cakes

Member
Guevara said:
LOL at winning Edge's GOTY, that just reflects poorly on Edge.
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Um....the game was critically received just like Skyrim, Arkham City, Uncharted, Rayman Origins, and many others. The press seemed to really enjoy it, with a few natural exceptions, especially in the UK (and Edge is a UK magazine).

It's not like this game got 7's and 8's across the board. It's factually a strong game, but not everyone enjoys the same strong games. That's just the way it is.

Even if they chose another game for GOTY, there'd be someone saying that the choice reflects poorly on Edge and that the publication lacks credibility. If Rayman Origins got GOTY, people would be upset because it's a 2D platformer that sold poorly, for fuck's sake. If Skyrim won GOTY there'd be plenty folks saying that Edge lost credibility by supporting a glitchy/broken game (considering the uproar about the PS3 version).

No choice would be agreed on fully by everybody, so I don't see why it's necessary to say that Edge's decisions reflect poorly on itself. Opinions are opinions. And no, you can't throw that "opinions can be wrong" argument out there when we're talking about a critically acclaimed game, sorry.
 
B

butter_stick

Banned
Thrakier said:
Yeah? We probably don't live in the same universe then. I played this Zelda game many times before. Only difference is waggle+, yep. But it doesn't make for a different game, it just changes the combat mechanics to a certain extent. Everything else is the same as OoT or in a way even like the very first Zelda.

The old ass graphics and overall presentation doesn't help to make the game feel like innovative at least a tiny bit. For me it's an ok to good game, there is some nice stuff in there and it's good handcrafting. It has "last gen" written all over it though. I won't even consider buying a new Zelda if they don't change 75% of the formula for the next game. I played it way too often (even considering all the Zelda style knock offs we got over the years).
Click to expand...

I think SS changed a lot of things. That's why I didn't like it. The overall structure of the game feels quite different from the good 3D Zeldas.

I agree regarding presentation. It still feels like an N64 game with better graphics in some ways. It's hard to really explain, but it feels retro.
 
T

Thrakier

Member
butter_stick said:
I think SS changed a lot of things. That's why I didn't like it. The overall structure of the game feels quite different from the good 3D Zeldas.

I agree regarding presentation. It still feels like an N64 game with better graphics in some ways. It's hard to really explain, but it feels retro.
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Hm, weird, but it's all about perception I guess. I wasn't really THAT much into Zelda (I played almost all of them though), so maybe that's the reason why it still feels the same to me. If you are more into it you may notice the differences more. That said, I still think that it's more or less the same. The items are more or less the same, the dungeons, the fetch quests, the story (obviously)...though the game is somewhat imprisoned in itself. If they change it too much fans would say "it's not zelda anymore." But really, how often can you play the same game over and over again?

Imo the series needs a complete reboot. Try are more cinematic approach with a proper next gen engine, comppletly change the setting, get rid of the same soundeffects over and over again, dress Link differently. Really, just...change it.

I know that there are younger gamers who are experienceing SS as their first Zelda just as we did. If that's the case and the series aims at this and it doesn't want to evolve, I do understand that. I'm fine with that, I'll just don't play it anymore.

But really, besides all it's qualities it has, because Nintendo is just good at making games, I don't think by no means this game can be GOTY of 2011. If it really is the videogame industry wasn't able to achieve anything the past 15 years. Some may say that this is the case so...
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Thrakier said:
Hm, weird, but it's all about perception I guess. I wasn't really THAT much into Zelda (I played almost all of them though), so maybe that's the reason why it still feels the same to me. If you are more into it you may notice the differences more. That said, I still think that it's more or less the same. The items are more or less the same, the dungeons, the fetch quests, the story (obviously)...though the game is somewhat imprisoned in itself. If they change it too much fans would say "it's not zelda anymore." But really, how often can you play the same game over and over again?

Imo the series needs a complete reboot. Try are more cinematic approach with a proper next gen engine, comppletly change the setting, get rid of the same soundeffects over and over again, dress Link differently. Really, just...change it.

I know that there are younger gamers who are experienceing SS as their first Zelda just as we did. If that's the case and the series aims at this and it doesn't want to evolve, I do understand that. I'm fine with that, I'll just don't play it anymore.

But really, besides all it's qualities it has, because Nintendo is just good at making games, I don't think by no means this game can be GOTY of 2011. If it really is the videogame industry wasn't able to achieve anything the past 15 years. Some may say that this is the case so...
Click to expand...
But...none of that stuff changes gameplay.
 
W

wrowa

Member
Thrakier said:
Yeah? We probably don't live in the same universe then. I played this Zelda game many times before. Only difference is waggle+, yep. But it doesn't make for a different game, it just changes the combat mechanics to a certain extent. Everything else is the same as OoT or in a way even like the very first Zelda.
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Wat. There's not a single other Zelda game that changes the formula as much as Skyward Sword does, to a degree that makes this statement just ridiculous. If you think that you've played Skyward Sword before then you can't play pretty much any sequel to most games ever released.
 
T

Thrakier

Member
wrowa said:
Wat. There's not a single other Zelda game that changes the formula as much as Skyward Sword does, to a degree that makes this statement just ridiculous. If you think that you've played Skyward Sword before then you can't play pretty much any sequel to most games ever released.
Click to expand...

That says alot about how stagnant the Zelda series is.
 
A

Atomski

Member
Dash Kappei said:
LOL

Nintendo's fix is days away, fixed FOREVER. That's it.
Ridiculous fanboy comparison to Skyrim, not even slightly in the same fuckin' league.
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Ah I will admit I didnt know they could actually fix it sense the Wii dosnt do patches.

Also wheres the fanboy remark? I love Zelda games and will eventually pick this up. Just think the Skyrim hate is over blown.
 
A

AcceptableGhost

Member
There is a ton of franchises that are more played out and abused than the Zelda franchise - a franchise with 5 3D console games in 13+ years. Assassin's Creed is looking to have 5 major games come next year, a series that debuted in 2007.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
gketter said:
But this is supposed to tough edge. But when it comes to Halo they always give it 9s and 10s.
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Is there something strange about giving the Halo series 9's and 10's. The way I see it, they are the best FPS games we currently have on consoles thematic preferences damned?
 
A

AcceptableGhost

Member
zoukka said:
Is there something strange about giving the Halo series 9's and 10's. The way I see it, they are the best FPS games we currently have on consoles thematic preferences damned?
Click to expand...

The problem is I don't really have anything good to say about the Halo franchise other than I guess the multiplayer is pretty alright (although it has been essentially the same since Halo 2). The campaigns are pretty much torture to go through (mediocre to the point of boring).
 
G

guek

Banned
So this has turned into another SS hate thread where people say others shouldn't enjoy the game? Nice.


I think what people are feeling is stagnant about zelda is 1. presentation, and 2. dungeon structure. Zelda is no longer a game that makes you say WOW, and that's simply because it's on ancient hardware. Frankly speaking, I think a lot of gamers are shallow graphics whores without even knowing it. A lot of people could be playing the exact same game, structurally speaking, as they did a few years ago but think it's revolutionary or a breath of fresh air because it's got a nice new sheen of modern graphical effects.

And that's fine. That's fair. They're called "video" games, and visuals are a huge aspect of immersion. And really, I think that's what people have been missing from zelda lately, that feeling of immersion. Some can still get a taste of that magic, regardless of how dated the games look, but it's harder for others. People want to be impressed on all fronts, and that includes visuals.

But the bigger concern is dungeon structure. I think the mere concept of a "dungeon" feels like a relic in this day and age. People want open areas and fluidity in their games. I think what Aonuma and nintendo in general are going to try to do is break down those barriers between overworld and dungeon while still retaining dungeon-esque design. I think what they're going to try to do is get rid of that threshold between being inside and outside a dungeon.

And you know what? SS is the beginning of that! While it's still content to fall back on traditional dungeon-laurels, I think it takes a pretty good first step towards unifying dungeons and overworlds. It's game design is not a revolution, but that's ok. It's definitely trying something new with the series. Why some people can't see that baffles me. SS doesn't feel or play very much like any other zelda...outside of core dungeon layout. That's the kicker though, I guess.
 
E

elohel

Member
wrowa said:
Wat. There's not a single other Zelda game that changes the formula as much as Skyward Sword does, to a degree that makes this statement just ridiculous. If you think that you've played Skyward Sword before then you can't play pretty much any sequel to most games ever released.
Click to expand...



so making the game a side scroller wasn't the OTHER huge change?

guys zelda 2
 
Z

zoukka

Member
MTMBStudios said:
The problem is I don't really have anything good to say about the Halo franchise other than I guess the multiplayer is pretty alright (although it has been essentially the same since Halo 2). The campaigns are pretty much torture to go through (mediocre to the point of boring).
Click to expand...

Ok. I'm not that big of a Halo junkie, but just by objectively looking at the franchise it pretty much single handedly popularized the genre to consoles and indeed is still famous for its multiplayer in terms of hard design and balance. Then we have these little things like original damage and health system, vehicles and pretty much the foundation of console FPS controls.

I heard some people even enjoy the story aspect.
 
A

AcceptableGhost

Member
zoukka said:
Ok. I'm not that big of a Halo junkie, but just by objectively looking at the franchise it pretty much single handedly popularized the genre to consoles and indeed is still famous for its multiplayer in terms of hard design and balance. Then we have these little things like original damage and health system, vehicles and pretty much the foundation of console FPS controls.

I heard some people even enjoy the story aspect.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is all great and good about the first Halo game (and I guess multiplayer is more relative to the second one).... but what about the others? And even in regards to the first game - around all the "feels good for console I guess" controls is some of the most boring boilerplate level design, objectively.

Just because they actually made a game with a control scheme that actually works for consoles (good acceleration and the magnetism auto aim so the game pretty much aims for you) doesn't mean the actual game around it was any good. Halo isn't Doom - I can say that much.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
MTMBStudios said:
Yeah that is all great and good about the first Halo game (and I guess multiplayer is more relative to the second one).... but what about the others? And even in regards to the first game - around all the "feels good for console I guess" controls is some of the most boring boilerplate level design, objectively.

Just because they actually made a game with a control scheme that actually works for consoles (good acceleration and the magnetism auto aim so the game pretty much aims for you) doesn't mean the actual game around it was any good. Halo isn't Doom - I can say that much.
Click to expand...

Now just like I said, I've not played enormous amounts of these games. Mostly the first and second game and back in those days the games were unrivalled in terms of multiplayer and in fact enemy AI. I remember a lot of the publifications splooging over how the encounters were special. Also I don't know what are you comparing Halo games against here.

Maybe someone else can educate us about the new Halo games because I haven't played them all that much.
 
AgentP

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
gketter said:
Boy does EDGE always rate Halo high. Even the remake of 1 gets a 9 from the "tough" critics? Interesting.
Click to expand...

A 7 is "great", but for a remade xbox game 7 is not good enough, they have to be tough!
 
A

ArjanN

Member
Blast Processing said:
If there's one thing everyone should take away from this thread, it's "I really need to play SpaceChem."
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To be honest I wouldn't really recommend SpaceChem for everyone. I'm pretty sure it's way too hard and unintuitive even for most people here. Not saying it's bad, but it's very niche, like say a flight sim is.
 
D

Dr.Hadji

Member
Thrakier said:
Yeah? We probably don't live in the same universe then. I played this Zelda game many times before. Only difference is waggle+, yep. But it doesn't make for a different game, it just changes the combat mechanics to a certain extent. Everything else is the same as OoT or in a way even like the very first Zelda.
Click to expand...

I love it how people try to minimize something as significant as that. Just like the OOT is just LTTP is 3d people. If you ignore a lot of the differences there are a lot of similarities.
 
A

ArjanN

Member
zoukka said:
Now just like I said, I've not played enormous amounts of these games. Mostly the first and second game and back in those days the games were unrivalled in terms of multiplayer and in fact enemy AI. I remember a lot of the publifications splooging over how the encounters were special. Also I don't know what are you comparing Halo games against here.

Maybe someone else can educate us about the new Halo games because I haven't played them all that much.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing he's comparing it to PC FPS games. Like Half-life 2/Far Cry/Doom 3 which all came out the same year as Halo 2.

Halo was very influential, there's no denying that but IMO mostly among people who never really played FPS on PCs before. The control scheme works well for consoles, but I still feel FPS games control pretty bad with controllers.

Also, a Halo remake seems kind of pointless to me because I felt the Halo sequels were already so similar.
 
J

Jive Turkey

Unconfirmed Member
ArjanN said:
To be honest I wouldn't really recommend SpaceChem for everyone. I'm pretty sure it's way too hard and unintuitive even for most people here. Not saying it's bad, but it's very niche, like say a flight sim is.
Click to expand...

Hard yes but unintuitive? The beauty of Spacechem is the complex chaos that comes from simple commands. If you jump right into the challenge levels you'd be quickly overwhelmed (so much so you wouldn't know where to start) but the game does a great job introducing new mechanics.
 
A

ArjanN

Member
Jive Turkey said:
Hard yes but unintuitive? The beauty of Spacechem is the complex chaos that comes from simple commands. If you jump right into the challenge levels you'd be quickly overwhelmed (so much so you wouldn't know where to start) but the game does a great job introducing new mechanics.
Click to expand...

Only once you get past the beginning, which is unlikely due to the completely awful tutorial.
 
W

wrowa

Member
Thrakier said:
That says alot about how stagnant the Zelda series is.
Click to expand...

Or maybe there are just things - like puzzles, items, dungeons - that make a Zelda game a Zelda game. If you don't want to play a Zelda game then don't play a Zelda game.

I appreciated the controverse design choices in Skyward Sword more than many other people on GAF, but nevertheless I was never silent to criticize that Skyward is in some (important) areas horribly stuck in traditions. However, there are some statements that are just silly. And saying that Skyward Sword is too similar to it's predecessors is one them.
 
T

Thrakier

Member
guek said:
So this has turned into another SS hate thread where people say others shouldn't enjoy the game? Nice.


I think what people are feeling is stagnant about zelda is 1. presentation, and 2. dungeon structure. Zelda is no longer a game that makes you say WOW, and that's simply because it's on ancient hardware. Frankly speaking, I think a lot of gamers are shallow graphics whores without even knowing it. A lot of people could be playing the exact same game, structurally speaking, as they did a few years ago but think it's revolutionary or a breath of fresh air because it's got a nice new sheen of modern graphical effects.

And that's fine. That's fair. They're called "video" games, and visuals are a huge aspect of immersion. And really, I think that's what people have been missing from zelda lately, that feeling of immersion. Some can still get a taste of that magic, regardless of how dated the games look, but it's harder for others. People want to be impressed on all fronts, and that includes visuals.

But the bigger concern is dungeon structure. I think the mere concept of a "dungeon" feels like a relic in this day and age. People want open areas and fluidity in their games. I think what Aonuma and nintendo in general are going to try to do is break down those barriers between overworld and dungeon while still retaining dungeon-esque design. I think what they're going to try to do is get rid of that threshold between being inside and outside a dungeon.
Click to expand...

I fully agree on those points, very well said. :) But I also think that the gameplay kinda takes you out of the immersion as well, but that's the point of the fluidity. It's somewhat not believable and very gimmicky. For example, it's believable that the ancient hero fights with a sword against foes or uses a bow. It's not believable that he has to throw bombs in basketball hoop thingies. That's dumb. So Zelda was always about Gimmicks (almost James Bond like now that I think about it) and how to use them. You get it and right after it you get a dungeon themend in a way so that you use it. That's staged and predictable. It's so called "gamey". I don't have a problem with that per se. For example it's super fine in a game like Mario Galaxy. Thing is, Zelda is supposed to be an adventure, a tale of a hero and you normally want to get immersed in this. And that doesn't work anymore because the standards have risen. And Nintendo is still stuck in mid-90s in regards to that.

And that's why I think, besides being a good game (even great to some), it shouldn't be GOTY of the year 2011. Because in a way it's more of a retro experience.

Also I really want everyone to enjoy the game if he/she is able to. :) I'm not interested in spoiling the game for anyone. If that happened, sorry. But THB that always happens on GAF, happened to me quite often before... :(

wrowa said:
Or maybe there are just things - like puzzles, items, dungeons - that make a Zelda game a Zelda game. If you don't want to play a Zelda game then don't play a Zelda game.

I appreciated the controverse design choices in Skyward Sword more than many other people on GAF, but nevertheless I was never silent to criticize that Skyward is in some (important) areas horribly stuck in traditions. However, there are some statements that are just silly. And saying that Skyward Sword is too similar to it's predecessors is one them.
Click to expand...

I don't know man, I don't think my opinion is silly. I just think that's how I feel about the game. I'm not too deep into Zelda, l ike I said before (never played a Zelda game twice f.e.), but maybe that's why it feels the same. I don't notice a huge difference. Dungeons are dungeons like always, gameplay and pacing is similar to me like WW or TP, items are the same, you do the same things...biggest change is just WM+ to me.
 
J

Jive Turkey

Unconfirmed Member
ArjanN said:
Only once you get past the beginning, which is unlikely due to the completely awful tutorial.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? The tutorial may not be the best but it does its job by explaining what you need to do and how to go about doing it.

Again Spacechem is hard and it has a rather dramatic learning curve but does a very good job explaining its tools to the player and then lets the player figure out the best use for said tools.
 
Q

qizah

Unconfirmed Member
II CETRA II said:
Pretty much this. After viewing this list I was pretty dumbstruck. Mario Kart 7 over SM3DL? No fucking way. Skyward Sword over Dark Souls, sorry thats just retarded.
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EDGE is now bad because they didn't pick what you think is game of the year? lol.

Skyward Sword is deserving of Game of the Year, many games that came out this year are deserving of being called game of the year. If Dark Souls doesn't win that category in EDGE, it'll win elsewhere - big deal.
 
B

Barrett2

Member
Best Online Experience

Dark Souls
Portal 2
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3
Click to expand...

I hate to be that guy, but what a joke.

Their servers flat-out didn't work for months after the game's release. The online *never* worked, and when it did, it was an inconsistent, broken mess. Give me a break.

This leads to a broader issue, IMO. The video games enthusiast press is so far up its own ass in reviewing the *potential* of the products they cover rather than the reality of those products as they exist for 99% of the consumers who use them. Reprehensible.
 
T

thelatestmodel

Junior, please.
lawblob said:
I hate to be that guy, but what a joke.

Their servers flat-out didn't work for months after the game's release. The online *never* worked, and when it did, it was an inconsistent, broken mess. Give me a break.

This leads to a broader issue, IMO. The video games enthusiast press is so far up its own ass in reviewing the *potential* of the products they cover rather than the reality of those products as they exist for 99% of the consumers who use them. Reprehensible.
Click to expand...

I can sort of see why they picked it - Dark Souls brought some genuinely interesting online features. The orange soapstone, bloodstains, summoning and invading are all pretty innovative. Still, only the first two really worked on a regular basis, and you don't play Dark Souls for its online features. There are other, more deserving titles.

I basically never read Edge any more.
 
T

Thoraxes

Member
Zelda GOTY?

I totally agree. No other game this year immersed me as much as Zelda did. The controls worked perfectly for me, the environments pushing the last juice out of the Wii, new mechanics and other things in the series changed, and the near-flawless integration of motion+ really made me feel like I was the hero in the tunic. Such a great game.
 
T

The_Darkest_Red

Member
I think Zelda and Dark Souls are excellent choices for GOTY. I enjoyed both games immensely more than 90% of what I played this year. It's also nice to see Super Mario 3D Land getting some recognition for its pure excellence. I'm pretty impressed with EDGE's choices overall.
 
D

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Very happy to see SpaceChem win the Indie Game of the Year award. Very unique, extremely challenging, aesthetically simple but pleasing... really a perfect example of quality indie content. Pretty happy with the awards but would have given Child of Eden the award for art direction over Uncharted 3.
 
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