JimmyRustler
Gold Member
I give up. You're too smart for me.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DICE: Anti Used System 'can be a win and a loss'.
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Wow, and misplaced condescension! Is there any semblance of an ability to hold reasonable, adult discussion in you?
And yet it's exactly what people are letting themselves be talked around into doing. Worse yet, they've been led to believe they're 'saving the industry', and that the people digging in their heels and wanting to protect their basic rights are scum who are destroying it.
Version 3.0
Member
You're naive if you think this will help them. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd be begging them to stop. There are any number of industries whose history you could look at and see that trying to exploit your customers, instead of serving them, is a great way to go bankrupt.
The used game business is a side effect of an overpriced, but highly desirable, thriving industry. They think they're trying to cut out a cancer, but they're really cutting off a leg and will soon be bleeding profusely.
And, as I said, they won't even realize what they've done. They'll stick their heads in the next available pile of sand (next to yours) and blame Apple.
NullPointer
Member
Seriously. Its not like the console makers have established credibility in terms of offering gotta-have-it sales through their digital storefronts. If their plan is to further fortify those walled gardens they'd do best to show us they're actually willing to compete with the likes of Steam and others. Its called give-and-take, not take-and-take-some-more.
I like games, too. It does not mean I'm willing to allow game companies to take advantage of me or compromise my rights.
Game companies aren't your friend. They will exploit and manipulate you if it suits their interests and if they think they can get away with it. I have great respect for game creators and what they do. I am not willing to let them dictate what I can and cannot do with my legally purchased property.
That you would so casually give up your rights for a non-essential thing is a little sad.
Version 3.0
Member
Indeed. If the price is low enough, resale value ceases to be an issue. But I'd still be concerned about long-term viability. I can still play my 2600 and NES games. But when Xbox Live or PSN goes away (and they will, nothing lasts forever), will the ability to play these games disappear as well? They'll need to convince me that won't be the case.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
What is there to discuss? If you don't understand that it really is a problem when one game is bought and then resold 3, 4, a dozend times, then there is nothing to discuss.
It's quite shocking, really. If I ever become this coachable, please kill me. Kill me in the face.
They can require us to have an internet connection to play games. Even though that'd probably do more damage than eliminating used sales, I can see it happening. Didn't Blizzard do something like this with SC2 and Ubisoft with a couple of their games?
Big assumption. With increased margins on sale, what's to stop them cutting more features and trying to make more money by selling less content?
This is logic I dont get. I like the butcher we buy from. I pay a little bit more for the quality and advice. But I wouldnt give him extra money for nothing if his business wasn't financially viable. That's just throwing good money after bad.
No chance in hell. Any increase in profits will be demanded to be maintained by shareholder pressure. Big developers/publishers will keep on chasing/cloning the next GTA/CoD success story.
You cannot attempt to make disingenuous and dismissive claims like that if you are shortsighted enough to want the used game market to be destroyed.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
And yet...the thread is hundreds of posts long with people all doing just that. Weird, isn't it?
toastyToast
Member
If they set aside a half hour brainstorm on how to not lose money I'm sure they would come up with something.
But, oh no! Blame the customer.
If gamers weren't drawn to 'blockbuster' games like moths to a flame this bullshit wouldn't have a second leg to stand on.
But, oh no! Blame the customer.
If gamers weren't drawn to 'blockbuster' games like moths to a flame this bullshit wouldn't have a second leg to stand on.
So customer rights are a problem now?
NullPointer
Member
Unlike pc gaming there's still millions of people using consoles that never go online. Would be very damaging to console sales so I doubt that will happen. They could do a call in activation code to make sure the cd key was never used for offline gamers but that seems unlikely.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Ehm.. Except Microsoft and Activision, basically all publishers made loss recently. How much worse can it get?
Overpriced? What are you talking about? Game prices haven't changed for years now. I even remember paying more for FFIX back on the PS than I do today. Why do you think our hobby is overpriced? It just blows my mind.
Uhh... I smell conspiracy. lol
You know what non-essential mean? I means people don't really need it. In a time where people have so many opportunities to invest their time in, game companies will beware to fukk with their customers - or they'll just dump them. And EA, Activision and who ever... they all know this.
apparently
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
What is weird is that you seemingly are aware of this but still deem this problem not be existant.
If one individual buys a game used, there is no guarantee that he will buy the game new. I doubt it's a one to one conversion.
So, even if you remove the used game market, there is no guarantee that you will significantly bump up your sales.
If EA, Activision, and others want to be bought out by some Korean/Chinese company in ten years, they'll continue doing the same stupid shit today. All of the following:
1) Development costs continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
2) Marketing costs continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
3) Labor costs continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
4) Media costs (IE: Actors, licenses, music, etc) continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
It's a very destructive cycle, if next-generation costs are not contained, we are going to be looking at a very "bare" industry when its all said and done.
1) Development costs continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
2) Marketing costs continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
3) Labor costs continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
4) Media costs (IE: Actors, licenses, music, etc) continue to rise at a ever-increasing pace.
It's a very destructive cycle, if next-generation costs are not contained, we are going to be looking at a very "bare" industry when its all said and done.
I know, I was just sharing a solution to the "what if they never go online" problem from their perspective. It'll be interesting to see exactly how they plan to enforce this and what happens when piracy inevitably spikes if they succeed.
A game does degrade. It is usually surpassed by a comptetitor's game in the same genre, or a sequel months later. That i why they have a limited 'window' of sales (with a very few exceptions like some of Nintendo's games) and after that their sales fall off a cliff. A game, as far as the market is concerned, is irrelveant 6 months after release.
Publishers are trying to push this perception that there are thousands of people buying the latest COD game second hand $5 less than a new copy in the same store, when there is absolutely no data supporting this.
Edit: Obviously talking about full retail prices here. Steam are making the window alot bigger with discount prices and deals.
Don't forget asset costs.
5) Increased expectations in visual fidelity and physical simulations will cause a big increase in prices. Modelling the movement and collisions of shoelaces in Fifa 2015 will take a whole team of programmers.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
I read this sentance several times now.... nope, I don't understand it.
I feel the same about your general argument.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeah, differing opinions are odd that way.
NullPointer
Member
If you actually believe this then that's some naive bullshit.
Exactly, and its coming to the point IMHO that these things really don't matter to the general consumer. We have really reached a point of diminishing returns.
Sure, improvements can be made but at what costs? Epic and Crytech would love to introduce new, pricey, engines and they want super-powerful consoles next generation. They make tons of money off of it. But for everyone else, does it matter ultimately? Is it really worth it?
I think the industry would do well to follow Wii U's lead. Incremental improvements to graphical fidelity, massive improvements on online implementation/POS services.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Ok, now I get it. Well, yes, the chance does exist that after playing it used that someone will buy it new. However, I don't think that's the case very often. Simply because there are too many good games out there - no matter what genre you're playing. I mean, I do play a lot and still I struggle to play all the games I want to.It's fixed now!
Fro my experiance used games buyer are the biggest sellers. You know, buy game, finish it, sell it, buy new game.
NullPointer
Member
I'm OK with this.
Because the aforementioned model worked until the used sales became widespread. It's proving that it works under steam.
I'm not giving money because it isn't financially viable, I'm giving money because I want to. Big difference. I see a company collection on sale, I see 3 titles I want... I buy it. If there's a game I like that's really cheap that I bought on 360, I'll buy it to add it to my library so I can play it again way in the future... But it will only benefit the developer short term.
You don't really understand. They resort to those NOW because they are the main thing driving profits because long term, other titles can't succeed JUST because of the used sales. Just because a title isn't a runaway success doesn't mean it's not profitable under a model without used games. Its turnover rate would be lower... Companies need to rely on the mild successes because blockbuster titles are not always a for sure thing. It's the missing portion of this generation. If you can't see that, then.. Sorry.
Shortsighted? There was nothing shortsighted with the facts I gave you. They are facts, not opinions.
TheExorzist, what you're not getting is that Used games aren't the sole reason why everyone is on this mess, its only one part of the equation.
Nuking the used game market isn't going to suddenly make every developer who's losing money start making money, honestly, nothing will probably change at all.
If companies really want to fix this mess that THEY GOT THEMSELVES INTO, they need to look at themselves, instead of doing this
and ignoring everything that's going on around them.
The fact that not one company has looked inward tells you something. Its the exact same attitude that people who are spoiled have. I can't do anything wrong, everyone else is the problem. Its used games, or piracy, or mobile games as to why my product isn't selling like it should be. Its the consumers fault for not buying my product. That's the type of speak we hear from companies.
It's the exact same way a child views the world until they're told otherwise.
One surefire way to stop the bleeding is to reign in your budgets. Don't spend $15 million to make a game and another $10 million to advertise it. Budget according, and they'll do a lot better, but that's something we all have to do.
I guarantee you that we'll be having a similar conservation next gen when game companies are throwing out their next scapegoat to try to explain why they're still losing money.
Also, if I can't trade in games I don't play next gen, I'm going to be buying less and less games. Guess what, that means a company won't be getting the following in dollars from me,
The new game purchase
Any future DLC
Any future expansions
I'm not saying used games aren't a problem (they are), but to lay 100% of the blame for all of the industries's problems on that fact is asinine and so shortsighted its insane.
Nuking the used game market isn't going to suddenly make every developer who's losing money start making money, honestly, nothing will probably change at all.
If companies really want to fix this mess that THEY GOT THEMSELVES INTO, they need to look at themselves, instead of doing this
and ignoring everything that's going on around them.
The fact that not one company has looked inward tells you something. Its the exact same attitude that people who are spoiled have. I can't do anything wrong, everyone else is the problem. Its used games, or piracy, or mobile games as to why my product isn't selling like it should be. Its the consumers fault for not buying my product. That's the type of speak we hear from companies.
It's the exact same way a child views the world until they're told otherwise.
One surefire way to stop the bleeding is to reign in your budgets. Don't spend $15 million to make a game and another $10 million to advertise it. Budget according, and they'll do a lot better, but that's something we all have to do.
I guarantee you that we'll be having a similar conservation next gen when game companies are throwing out their next scapegoat to try to explain why they're still losing money.
Also, if I can't trade in games I don't play next gen, I'm going to be buying less and less games. Guess what, that means a company won't be getting the following in dollars from me,
The new game purchase
Any future DLC
Any future expansions
I'm not saying used games aren't a problem (they are), but to lay 100% of the blame for all of the industries's problems on that fact is asinine and so shortsighted its insane.
Tylahedras
Banned
I don't know how many time I have to say it, but I will never own a console that does this. If I can't OWN the item then I won't buy it for more then 5$. So effectively I'll be limited to iPhone and steam.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
No, what is weird to me is that you admit to see that many, many people insist on their right to resell games (therefore I assume they do this quite often), yet you have no understanding for game companies complaining about this.
If you were head of a game publisher and would invest money into making games, wouldn't it bother you that many people consume these and don't pay you for it and therefore you don't get back your investment?
No we haven't, and everything everyone says about the cost of next gen is patented grade A bullshit.
But hey, this is neoGAF dude. Low power consoles are good because they are a supposed benefit to the economic health of the industry, meanwhile dealing with the used game industry cannibalizing the tail on new game sales is evil and fuck the industry.
Trading games between friends isn't a problem but the practices of a company like Gamestop is and the amount of money that retailers are able to make off of used games, money that in other lifetimes would have yknow, gone to the devs, kind of speaks to that point. If you think these retailers are not cannibalizing new sales in order to push used at massive profits for themselves then you're kidding yourself.
Guarantee it how, exactly? Cmon, put your money where your mouth is.
Brofist
Member
So even you admit that the used game industry has some benefit, as people are willing to buy more new games if they can sell their old.
So you will be limited to the two things that do exactly what you are against? LOL
Welcome to the world.
I'm intrigued. What are the numbers of say Assassins Creed Revelations on Steam or lets say PC all together compared to console sales?
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
I assume billion dollar companies have good market analysts. But with your profound game market knowledge I'm sure publishers will fight to hire you. Who knows?
1. Used sales have been widespread as long as I've been playing games (mid 80s). And if it wasnt used games, it was piracy that was prolific (see problems that harmed Amiga sw sales). At least used games support the new game market.
2. But you said yourself you dont play many of those games? That's just silly.
3. I understand perfectly. Any chance any company, not just in gaming, gets to increase their margins - that's what they do. They dont pass on savings to customers out of the goodness of their heart - they dont sacrifice more money in order to fund price drops and the same margin they were on beforehand. Examples of industry where this happens: banking, customer service in telecommunications, infrastructure/utilities. Gaming is no different: cut costs, raise or maintain price of service.
4. They aren't facts. You're shortsighted if you want to spite the used game market. It's always been around, it will always be around. It's a customer right to buy and resell what they want.
I wont touch any game with online passes. I learnt my lesson with batman and uncharted 3, although at least I recouped all my money on uc3. Any console that restricts used sales won't be bought by me either.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Not if that new game is also a used game.
Way to counteract my post, great job, was impressed, two thumbs up.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.
I would hope the head of a game publisher could understand that some people buy games because of the safety net the used market provides. There have been plenty of games that I bought thinking I'll beat and trade it in only to keep it forever. Even if people who buy and then sell used games 100% of the time exist, there's no guarantee someone will buy those used copies making it a lost sale. Like I said before, a gamestop store will show you that some games they purchase just end up collecting dust.
Similar threads
- Locked