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What are your political leanings?

Relativ9

Member
and then you remember that jews again flee certain places in europe and not because of some skin head idiots but because of the imported Islamic antisemitism.
This has happened and is happening in france and sweden especially.

Or do you actually try to sell the fantasy that half of Europe turned to the right as soon as the governments ignored their constant warnings (that btw have been proven correct) just suddenly out of nowhere for no reason at all?
Playing willfully blind or ignorant isnt helpful.. Do we really need to read in the history books that the eurozone disintegrated because of a bunch of cowards refusing to look reality in the eyes until the end of europe?
Can we agree that losing the uk, half of europe turning to center right and the possible collapse of the eurozone should be enough reason/pressure to drop the charade already?

I mean I can certainly agree that importing bad ideas isn't exactly a net gain for Europe. Antisemitism, homophobia, and even racism (typically middle easterns aren't exactly fond of black people) are all large problems in European societies, and it usually gets worse the further east, south/east you go, importing a group of people who traditionally hold even more extreme views into that mess isn't exactly a good thing.

HOWEVER, no country can afford to be isolationist anymore. We live in a global society and the things that happen in one corner of the world can sometimes have dramatic consequences in another. While it's understandable to be scared of importing bad ideas we also need to start thinking more seriously about exporting good ones. And one of the most efficient ways to do that is to have population exchanges between these places. A son raised integrated into Western European societies and doing well is going to do far more good at convincing his family to soften their views and modernize than any amount of foreign aid budget will.

There's a balance to be found here, and it's probably somewhere to the left of how Saudi Arabia or Quwait has dealt with the refugee crisis, and somewhere on the right of where Sweden, Germany and France have dealt with it.

A while ago in Norway a proposal was brought up to deport people who have stayed in Norway for more than 5 years without learning Norwegian to a reasonable level. The left in Norway called this heartless and cruel and racist. The right said it didn't go far enough. The center said it was just right because while they would expect most people to be able to pick up a language like Norwegian in 1-2 years, they had taken into consideration the conditions some of the refugees came from and thrown on an extra 3 years for good measure.

I agree with the center, it's unsustainable to prop up whole generations of immigrants based on a socialist system they haven't paid into if we can't reasonably expect them to pay into it in the future (learn the language, get a job).

And to bring it back to the culture clash. Some Muslims nurses refuse to work in our hospitals because they'd have to serve pork meals to their patients. This way of thinking is also unsustainable and shouldn't be supported. Can work but don't want to? Starve. I don't care if the reason you don't want to is an irrational superstition, why should my tax money pay for that?
 
Actually there is no need whatsoever to spend 4 years to get a degree. 4 years is tradition pure and simple.

In fact what we need IMHO is a complete overhaul of the education system.

Where did you come up with that? 4 years is barely enough. Sometimes things are the way they are for a reason, it's not some conspiracy or nonsensical 'tradition'.

To my point, it is essential to have a bachelor's degree if you want to have any upward class mobility. All career fields will prevent you from moving up unless you have it, that's if somehow you got your foot in the door without it.

It's absurd to suggest that we should diminish the amount of education. It's a bizarre idea. The overhaul that we do need in our education system is how we pay for it.

I'm a software engineer and work with mechanical, software and electronic engineers, and it is almost a crisis how few qualified applicants there are for these positions. It sometimes takes me a year to find someone I can hire.

How can this place have devolved into such a sorry state in such a short amount of time?

Lots of smart folks left and the void seems to be (barely) filled with mainstream internet nitwittery.
 

Relativ9

Member
To my point, it is essential to have a bachelor's degree if you want to have any upward class mobility. All career fields will prevent you from moving up unless you have it, that's if somehow you got your foot in the door without it.

Not to throw a wrench into your argument, but I think that probably depends on a lot on the industry and country. I have an associates degree in programming (for games) and have two years of an unfinished bachelors degree in the same.

Yet I work for as a Network Engineer (a discipline pretty much totally separate) for a large international company, I have absolutely no qualifications on paper for this. A consultant we worked with for one of our clients up until a few months ago is 56 years old, is on paper even less qualified than I am (no degrees in anything), yet we paid him 400€ a day to work at our Client's site for 9 months, paid his lodging and gave him a 74€ daily allowance for expenses. He's been a freelance consultant for years after leaving a management position at Cisco.

It's true that most employers prefer bachelors degrees, mine was supposed to require that, but they took the interview with me anyway and I convinced them that I knew what I was talking about. If I want to move up to a higher level in the company I can, internal career paths and courses paid for by the company and done during working hours make this not only possible, but something actively encouraged by management. Our site manager started out not far from where I am.

And even in cases where you do need a bachelor to advance, there are plenty of people who do this while working at an older age, part-time bachelor programs are all the rage in major cities around Europe. And many times Associates Degrees are sufficient if backed up by a little bit experience and/or history with the company.

That said, more education is always good, but right now too many countries are expecting everyone to be engineers or lawyers. We still need plumbers and carpenters, and we should value them more.
 
Not to throw a wrench into your argument, but I think that probably depends on a lot on the industry and country. I have an associates degree in programming (for games) and have two years of an unfinished bachelors degree in the same.

Yet I work for as a Network Engineer (a discipline pretty much totally separate) for a large international company, I have absolutely no qualifications on paper for this. A consultant we worked with for one of our clients up until a few months ago is 56 years old, is on paper even less qualified than I am, yet we paid him 400€ a day to work at our Client's site for 9 months, paid his lodging and gave him a 74€ daily allowance expenses. He's been a freelance consultant for years after leaving a management position at Cisco.

It's true that most employers prefer bachelors degrees, mine was supposed to require that, but they took the interview with me anyway and I convinced them that I knew what I was talking about. If I want to move up to a higher level in the company I can, internal career paths and courses paid for by the company and done during working hours make this not only possible, but something actively encouraged by management. Our site manager started out not far from where I am.

And even in cases where you do need a bachelor to advance, there are plenty of people who do this while working at an older age, part-time bachelor programs are all the rage in major cities around Europe. And many times Associates Degrees are sufficient if backed up by a little bit experience and/or history with the company.

That said, more education is always good, but right now too many countries are expecting everyone to be engineers or lawyers. We still need plumbers and carpenters, and we should value them more.

I don't think that affects my argument at all as that's an outlier. Sure, associate's degrees can get one's foot in the door and present opportunities. However, by and large, you will hit a wall without a bachelor's degree, and that's if you were able to get a position without it in the first place. In the US.

What's important here isn't to argue, it's to accept reality and understand the norms of society and how it all works. It's unproductive to say '4 years is too long and not worth it' just because one 'feels' that way, when the reality is, in the grand scheme of things (not talking about outliers), you are fucked if you don't have a 4 year degree. Not just engineers or lawyers, but any career field (finance, management, business, technology, medical, education, etc.).
 

Relativ9

Member
I don't think that affects my argument at all as that's an outlier. Sure, associate's degrees can get one's foot in the door and present opportunities. However, by and large, you will hit a wall without a bachelor's degree, and that's if you were able to get a position without it in the first place. In the US.

What's important here isn't to argue, it's to accept reality and understand the norms of society and how it all works. It's unproductive to say '4 years is too long and not worth it' just because one 'feels' that way, when the reality is, in the grand scheme of things (not talking about outliers), you are fucked if you don't have a 4 year degree.

I might have misunderstood the discussion, it seemed like what Durask was saying was that we really should restructure society and our educational systems so that bachelors and masters weren't so absolutely necessary for social mobility because he thought they shouldn't be. Not that they currently aren't. My point in using my own example (though outlier it is) was that we already have paths to upwards social mobility that doesn't require bachelor degrees that suggest that if it were more widespread that it could work well (as it has in my case).
 
I might have misunderstood the discussion, it seemed like what Durask was saying was that we really should restructure society and our educational systems so that bachelors and masters weren't so absolutely necessary for social mobility because he thought they shouldn't be. Not that they currently aren't. My point in using my own example (though outlier it is) was that we there already have paths to upwards social mobility that doesn't require bachelor degrees that suggest that if it were more widespread that it could work well (as it has in my case).

What we're dealing with here in the US is a right wing anti-education movement, and these people seem to believe that higher education is a scam, or that it's culture is 'corrupt' or whatever. Kids are getting their heads full of this stuff and screwing up their lives and spreading nonsense, as if the world is going to bend to their misinformed worldview. US companies need and will hire qualified people, US citizens or not.

Sure there are ways to make a good living in the trades or in IT with an associate's degree, but there's not a lot of grey area in this economy- you either have the education and skills to get ahead, or you are lucky to be treading water.
 

David___

Banned
How can this place have devolved into such a sorry state in such a short amount of time?
All the people who actually made content left. All the posters who felt “opressed”(whatevet the fuck that means when talking about a damn private forum) finally crawled out if their hole
 
All the people who actually made content left. All the posters who felt “opressed”(whatevet the fuck that means when talking about a damn private forum) finally crawled out if their hole

Lots of smart folks left and the void seems to be (barely) filled with mainstream internet nitwittery.

I find both of these postings incredibly condescending, insulting and ignorant.

"Smart folks" wouldn't have left, considering Evilore didn't do anything wrong. People left because of an irrational outrage based on an absurd accusation. I wouldn't call these people smart.

As for the lack of content: Too many people keep ranting about lacking content instead of writing stuff themselves. There's also the problem of many new users still being juniors, myself included, and thus being unable to create new topics.

If you actually follow some of the active threads, you'll find quality postings. But too few people are participating, hence why I registered, because NeoGAF as is has a real chance to be a great place for discussion again. All it takes is people.

So, no, 'smart folks' didn't leave. Smart folks are here, having debates of many different viewpoints and that's good. Just gotta reignite things :)
 

David___

Banned
"Smart folks" wouldn't have left, considering Evilore didn't do anything wrong. People left because of an irrational outrage based on an absurd accusation. I wouldn't call these people smart.
He didn't do anything wrong, except for shutting the whole site down for zero reason, going to the press just to say the person who made the allegation has a mental illness before saying anything at all to this place, nuked any and all social/political talk before he 180ed, nuked the whole ot before 180ing again, made an excuse so bad that the entire mod team quit, and a plethora of other things.



If you actually follow some of the active threads, you'll find quality postings. But too few people are participating, hence why I registered, because NeoGAF as is has a real chance to be a great place for discussion again. All it takes is people.
People say this yet sans this thread, any topic that makes it past page 3 is literally people shitting on people who aren't here anymore and the new site ad nausium. And whenever I ask where this so called quality discussions people never link me
 

daniell

Member
All the people who actually made content left. All the posters who felt “opressed”(whatevet the fuck that means when talking about a damn private forum) finally crawled out if their hole

You should call those people out and not throw attacks this vaguely (or rather broadly) at no one in particular, the bit of ego masturbation at the end doesn't help either.
It makes you look insecure, as if you attack so broadly because you have not argument against the specifics/people you actually mean.
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
You should call those people out and not throw attacks this vaguely (or rather broadly) at no one in particular, the bit of ego masturbation at the end doesn't help either.
It makes you look insecure, as if you attack so broadly because you have not argument against the specifics/people you actually mean.

like half the forum was spouting that "finally we can have discussions" crap when everything went down


and they are mostly trash
 
I find both of these postings incredibly condescending, insulting and ignorant.

"Smart folks" wouldn't have left, considering Evilore didn't do anything wrong. People left because of an irrational outrage based on an absurd accusation. I wouldn't call these people smart.

As for the lack of content: Too many people keep ranting about lacking content instead of writing stuff themselves. There's also the problem of many new users still being juniors, myself included, and thus being unable to create new topics.

If you actually follow some of the active threads, you'll find quality postings. But too few people are participating, hence why I registered, because NeoGAF as is has a real chance to be a great place for discussion again. All it takes is people.

So, no, 'smart folks' didn't leave. Smart folks are here, having debates of many different viewpoints and that's good. Just gotta reignite things :)

I'm with you on a lot of that. However, judging by what I've been seeing the past month since the event, the quality of content has been a bit... underwhelming. Not to say that some new members haven't lifted things up a bit, but this is what, the first real political thread since the exodus and it hasn't really met a high standard of discussion. I've been essentially asking for someone on the right to bring it and I can't get any takers. I know there are conservatives who know what they're talking about and can discuss politics with a foundational understanding of the issues, but they still aren't here. This was supposed to be a new NeoGAF without 'oppression', but where are the quality conservative posts that would supposedly not be allowed here before? I had two conservatives engage with me in this thread and one of them was a white supremacist. The other didn't even know the basics enough to back themselves up.
 

Matter

Banned
I'm with you on a lot of that. However, judging by what I've been seeing the past month since the event, the quality of content has been a bit... underwhelming. Not to say that some new members haven't lifted things up a bit, but this is what, the first real political thread since the exodus and it hasn't really met a high standard of discussion. I've been essentially asking for someone on the right to bring it and I can't get any takers. I know there are conservatives who know what they're talking about and can discuss politics with a foundational understanding of the issues, but they still aren't here. This was supposed to be a new NeoGAF without 'oppression', but where are the quality conservative posts that would supposedly not be allowed here before? I had two conservatives engage with me in this thread and one of them was a white supremacist. The other didn't even know the basics enough to back themselves up.

I feel that you may be a bit biased. The discussion in this thread is leagues better than the "WOW WHAT. THE. FUCK" session these types of threads were in months prior. The two people you conversed with seemed logical enough, and you've already resorted to an ad hominem for one of them. I assume you'd be more interested in political discussions with centrists rather than those you wholesomely disagree with.
 

Ide88

Neo Member
I'm a Socialist/communist.


I believe that the means of production should not be privately owned. Private property should be abolished.
 
I feel that you may be a bit biased. The discussion in this thread is leagues better than the "WOW WHAT. THE. FUCK" session these types of threads were in months prior. The two people you conversed with seemed logical enough, and you've already resorted to an ad hominem for one of them. I assume you'd be more interested in political discussions with centrists rather than those you wholesomely disagree with.

Hold up. So what you're suggesting is that someone who was banned for Stormfront-tier white supremacist rhetoric and someone who doesn't even know what the wealth gap is is 'logical enough'?

I have zero problem discussing politics with people I disagree with, and don't think it's unreasonable to have a standard for discussion that exceeds wacky, ignorant or hateful.
 

Matter

Banned
Hold up. So what you're suggesting is that someone who was banned for Stormfront-tier white supremacist rhetoric and someone who doesn't even know what the wealth gap is is 'logical enough'?

I have zero problem discussing politics with people I disagree with, and don't think it's unreasonable to have a standard for discussion that exceeds wacky, ignorant or hateful.

I obviously missed something because I saw no white supremacist rhetoric. Also, people have different interpretations on the severity, depth, and implications of the wealth gap.
 
If there's quality posting, you need a truffle pig to find it.

But it's been like that before, too. You're being unfair in your judgement here. A lot of what you might have perceived as "quality postings" in the past were only elaborate, yet smug, ignorant opinion pieces, fostered by the "good/bad opinion"-culture. How many threads did we need about "female Link", how many "men are bad" postings?

I'd certainly agree that quality is currently sparse, but that's simply because the number of active users is sparse, too.

There's also an entirely new challenge arising atm: Everybody was so used to spending all day talking about "politics" instead of actual game-related content, so now that these topics have gone away (and thanks god for that!), people have to figure out how to, gasp, talk about video games again :)

OT will also restart once users start sharing their weird rl-experiences in the vein of "oh no, I'm at a date's house and the toilet won't flush, what should I do?".

But NeoGAF is clearly better now that users like Lime, CrossingEden or A Link to the P don't lead the discourse. It's okay if you disagree, but I'm willing to make NeoGAF an active place again, now that the crazy people have left.

Edit: Also let's not broadly paint NeoGAF as bad just because there 2-3 right-wing extremists shitposting. Happens everywhere and will be taken care of eventually.
 
I obviously missed something because I saw no white supremacist rhetoric. Also, people have different interpretations on the severity, depth, and implications of the wealth gap.

I see, you're referring to JordanN, I forgot about them. JordanN was just flailing around, they were incoherent. I couldn't do anything with that.

I was referring to Bigby_Wolf with the white supremacy.
 

Matter

Banned
I see, you're referring to JordanN, I forgot about them. JordanN was just flailing around, they were incoherent. I couldn't do anything with that.

I was referring to Bigby_Wolf with the white supremacy.

You know what, now that I remember, JordanN was a guy I used to argue with all the time back on the GameTrailers forums in mid-2000s. He was a crazy pro-Israel guy. He somehow made an entire board pro-Palestinian he was so insufferable. Lmao
 
People taking bans for "mansplaning"

Trans people banned for transphobic comments (saying they can understand women not wanting to be in a bathroom with a man in a dress if they make no effort to look like a woman)

Sounds like a hellhole to me

Nope.Those were the subtopics that totally flooded and derailed the thread. People were suspended for it, and had 1 week bans for transophobia. But first people were warned.
 
So its now ridiculous to be told to stop derailing the thread then get banned for continually derailing a thread?

The two examples I saw were not derailing at all, just opinions.

The trans person was banned for saying trans should make an effort to be a woman and make natural born women feel comfortable in the bathroom.

Perfectly reasonable.
 

Blood Borne

Member
People taking bans for "mansplaning"

Trans people banned for transphobic comments (saying they can understand women not wanting to be in a bathroom with a man in a dress if they make no effort to look like a woman)

Sounds like a hellhole to me
Indeed. I mean, it should come as no surprise. Leftists hate dissenters, especially dissenters who they feel should be on their side, e.g. lgbt, non whites and women. They justify their intolerance by claiming and feeling morally superior.
 

Ke0

Member
Indeed. I mean, it should come as no surprise. Leftists hate dissenters, especially dissenters who they feel should be on their side, e.g. lgbt, non whites and women. They justify their intolerance by claiming and feeling morally superior.

Is there a political party in America this isn't a thing in? Your right wing is just as guilty of this mindset. Right wing just justifies their intolerance and hatred with a Bible and religion (while ironically talking about how another religion is intolerant…)

Seems like America needs to dump first to the post and embrace multiple parties and proportional representation.
 

Relativ9

Member
Seriously how is this in any way conducive to discussion

Dude, people are discussing, in fact just looking back at your posts in the last 3 or so pages, all of them are short one line jabs at someone or meta-comments about the quality of the discussion or the forum in general. If anything isn't conducive to a discussion it's that. Going back even farther in this thread shows you actually making some points of your own, but again it's very snappy short answers/comments that don't really explore the topic or your opinion of it much further than at a superficial level.

Be the change you want to see.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Fiscally: Left
Ecologically: Green (left)
Social security / Welfare: Left
Immigration: Center/left
Gender issues: Center / right
Personal freedom: Extremely liberal (anything that does not hurt others should be legal, including e.g. polygamy, drugs, running around naked)
 

Ubername

Banned
You know what, now that I remember, JordanN was a guy I used to argue with all the time back on the GameTrailers forums in mid-2000s. He was a crazy pro-Israel guy. He somehow made an entire board pro-Palestinian he was so insufferable. Lmao

This takes getting political to a new level
 
Out of curiosity, please explain why you support dictatorship?

Because I believe in the power of one. If one person made the decisions our society would speed up. If things went wrong we know who would be responsible. No scapegoats.
If an individual existed who could wield that power and not get corrupted by it. Who focused entirely on the needs and betterment of mankind and not their own personal glory or riches... imagine what could be accomplished.

If they were a good person and a good leader, there would be no need to enforce their rule with military power. A leader we could all follow and trust. A leader who could control their government with an iron fist and reach the people with an open heart.

I believe its possible.
 

Takyon

Member
Because I believe in the power of one. If one person made the decisions our society would speed up. If things went wrong we know who would be responsible. No scapegoats.
If an individual existed who could wield that power and not get corrupted by it. Who focused entirely on the needs and betterment of mankind and not their own personal glory or riches... imagine what could be accomplished.

If they were a good person and a good leader, there would be no need to enforce their rule with military power. A leader we could all follow and trust. A leader who could control their government with an iron fist and reach the people with an open heart.

I believe its possible.

You don't need one good leader, you need a perpetual supply of them and a way to peacefully and efficiently transfer power. Do you propose a vote to decide the next dictator for life? Or just let coups and civil conflict happen until one dude eliminates all his competitors?
 
You don't need one good leader, you need a perpetual supply of them and a way to peacefully and efficiently transfer power. Do you propose a vote to decide the next dictator for life? Or just let coups and civil conflict happen until one dude eliminates all his competitors?

No I respectfully disagree. Multiple people making decisions slows us all down. There will be disagreements. Rivalries. Compromise.
I would propose a vote for dictator for life. Should this individual proove to be awful then they will be reprimanded and stripped of power by law, and the next person to be voted in will happen.

Any self respecting and moral person would understand that the power is not theirs to keep, it is lended to them by the people. As such would not think of alterating said law of deposement.
 

Takyon

Member
No I respectfully disagree. Multiple people making decisions slows us all down. There will be disagreements. Rivalries. Compromise.
I would propose a vote for dictator for life. Should this individual proove to be awful then they will be reprimanded and stripped of power by law, and the next person to be voted in will happen.

Any self respecting and moral person would understand that the power is not theirs to keep, it is lended to them by the people. As such would not think of alterating said law of deposement.

Dictators don't obey laws.
Honestly though, this idea isn't really worth discussing.
 

Blood Borne

Member
No I respectfully disagree. Multiple people making decisions slows us all down. There will be disagreements. Rivalries. Compromise.
I would propose a vote for dictator for life. Should this individual proove to be awful then they will be reprimanded and stripped of power by law, and the next person to be voted in will happen.

Any self respecting and moral person would understand that the power is not theirs to keep, it is lended to them by the people. As such would not think of alterating said law of deposement.
A dictator that will allow himself to be stripped off power by law?

Hahahaha.
 

Ide88

Neo Member
Jesus Christ, are you for real?

Yes, it's superior to Capitalism. Just as Capitalism is superior to Feudalism.

Capitalism is an unstable system based on an unfounded cyclical economy and hierarchy planted on absolutely no secular or logical basis.
 
No I respectfully disagree. Multiple people making decisions slows us all down. There will be disagreements. Rivalries. Compromise.
I would propose a vote for dictator for life. Should this individual proove to be awful then they will be reprimanded and stripped of power by law, and the next person to be voted in will happen.

Any self respecting and moral person would understand that the power is not theirs to keep, it is lended to them by the people. As such would not think of alterating said law of deposement.

It would work if your dictator is Obama, but for all intents and purposes they'll want to keep power.
 

JordanN

Banned
Yes, it's superior to Capitalism. Just as Capitalism is superior to Feudalism.

Capitalism is an unstable system based on an unfounded cyclical economy and hierarchy planted on absolutely no secular or logical basis.

Capitalism rewards hard work.
If you work harder, you earn more money. If customers are dissatisfied with a product, they have the option of supporting another company to meet their needs and demands.

Socialism/Communism sound nice in theory but it never works in practice. There is no incentive to work hard because you're guaranteed money from the government. But wait! Where does the government get this money from? Off the backs of the hard working/rich people who ultimately get shot in the head chased out from a Socialist society. Without the rich, you only have the lazy and corrupt left. And as a result, productivity goes into free fall and shortages start running rampant. Government cannot predict the demand of its citizens who will always want more while working less, and you start running into famines.

.....

Also, I like Capitalism because I actually own my stuff. If a country was truly communist, I could break into your house and take all your property because it "belongs to the people".
 
Capitalism rewards hard work.
If you work harder, you earn more money"

What a load of horse shite. My dad worked himself until his body was broken, working a tough physical job, and it didn't make him wealthy. Meanwhile 20-something kids make thousands of dollars doing fancy graphic design jobs or working in pr firms.

"Hard work" hasn't been rewarded for decades now. But it'll trickle down, huh?
 

JordanN

Banned
What a load of horse shite. My dad worked himself until his body was broken, working a tough physical job, and it didn't make him wealthy.

Not to put your dad down but you can't expect every job to make you a millionaire. If someone flips burgers at McDonalds, they'll make as much money as the job pays. If they want more than that (like CEO) then they work towards climbing the corporate ladder. And if for some reason that's not enough, they can always switch to another company or start their own.

Xenobureido said:
Meanwhile 20-something kids make thousands of dollars doing fancy graphic design jobs or working in pr firms.

"Hard work" hasn't been rewarded for decades now. But it'll trickle down, huh?

If companies want to pay their employees that much, that's their choice. And I wouldn't say people who work those jobs don't work hard.

If they pay that much, it means companies want only top tier talent working for them. It weeds out anyone from just applying because it creates standards.
 
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