You would if you sold it at Home Depot and it required Home Depot to exist.
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Is the hate for paid mods justifiable?
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
I H8 Memes
Member
If it bothers Bethesda so much then they can just remove the ability to mod their games.
Spoiler alert: Their games would be lucky to achieve half the sales they do now without the modding community. Bethesda gets fucking paid for mods with millions of extra game sales. Millions. But you knew that already right?
CertifiedFP
Member
Yes.
BethesdaGS games have been shipping hollow and buggy for years now. Creator's Club just reinforces the behavior by setting up the infrastructure for Bethesda to nickel and dime people who want an experience actually worth $60.
Imagine if they got SkyUI, SKSE, the unofficial patches, and maybe even Requiem under Creator's Club.
BethesdaGS games have been shipping hollow and buggy for years now. Creator's Club just reinforces the behavior by setting up the infrastructure for Bethesda to nickel and dime people who want an experience actually worth $60.
Imagine if they got SkyUI, SKSE, the unofficial patches, and maybe even Requiem under Creator's Club.
No, the "mods should be free" crowd are the same kind of people who don't want to pay for art commissions, or expect you to do tech support out of the bottom of your heart, or try to ply your creative talents with promises of "exposure" and "experience".
ieptbarakat
Member
If they set up and announce the platform to allow paid community content creation before they release a game then that is fine, like what Epic Games is doing for Unreal Tournament 4.
However pushing paid community content creation onto existing games and their modding communities is really scummy, like what Bethesda is doing with Skyrim and Fallout 4.
Still, the new system isn't as bad as their first attempt so it has potential to not be completely terrible.
However pushing paid community content creation onto existing games and their modding communities is really scummy, like what Bethesda is doing with Skyrim and Fallout 4.
Still, the new system isn't as bad as their first attempt so it has potential to not be completely terrible.
terencecah
Member
Modders should earn money
CertifiedFP
Member
Whoa pal, I think you're vastly misreading the scenario. You wouldn't happen to be one of the SkyUI guys who ragequit modding after we called out Bethesda the first time, would you?
Our gripe is that Bethesda is making games that require mods to be enjoyable and complete, and is now setting up the framework for themselves to profit off of that even more.
There'd be no outrage if Bethesda's games didn't require mods in order to resemble a half decent game.
I H8 Memes
Member
I cant even understand the brain of someone who thinks Bethesda should get 1 red cent of profit from mods.
Entirely so.
They're trying to find a way to charge you for everything to do with a game. They will continue to do so, if they get away with charging for mods, mods that won't be exactly cheap as time goes on you can bet, they will find something else to charge you or try to add surcharges to other aspects.
It doesn't even matter if it's not their work, like mods they will try and find a way to justify it. Games are not cheap, so it all does add up in the end. People always say they won't go too far or do something.
Yeah well, people always said they wouldn't do things like DLC or try to charge for mods too.
In the end, they will try to piece meal every aspect of the game if we just let them.
They're trying to find a way to charge you for everything to do with a game. They will continue to do so, if they get away with charging for mods, mods that won't be exactly cheap as time goes on you can bet, they will find something else to charge you or try to add surcharges to other aspects.
It doesn't even matter if it's not their work, like mods they will try and find a way to justify it. Games are not cheap, so it all does add up in the end. People always say they won't go too far or do something.
Yeah well, people always said they wouldn't do things like DLC or try to charge for mods too.
In the end, they will try to piece meal every aspect of the game if we just let them.
The way they tried this the first time with stuff that was already free being monitized I think deserved every bit of hate it received. That was a garbage implementation. But if they want to allow free mods, but have a way to get paid for more complicated mods in the creator club, I have no problem with that.
I don't think publishers should get a cut beyond more game sales but I'm not against modders making some money off mods. It seems impossible to regulate which is a problem and donations should probably be the go to route and any exemplary expansion work could be official through the publisher for good modder profit if both parties agree. I think flooding the system with paid mods of all kinds will just ruin the collaborative effort.
My exact thoughts.
If a creator wants it to be free or charge, they should be able to. There's a lot of work that goes into some of these, but publishers getting a cut is annoying.
I know this for sure, there's a lot of Fallout 4 mods better than the tinkering bullshit Beth put in the season pass. Also if I recall they basically ripped the best thing Far Harbor from a previous existing New Vegas mod.
Take it up with Bethesda, or its consumers who seem always willing to put aside their standards just to buy Bethesda's latest games. I'm talking about the concept of paid mods itself, not any particular implementation of it.
It's horse armor DLC part duex. This is not about the modders, it's about companies like Bethesda wanting more money. So they will nickel and dime us for something that used to be free. This is the company that brought you horse armor after all.
Under their original mod sale/steam workshop framework, modders only received 25% of the profit of their own mods. I'm not positive on this, but I also think that you had to sell over a certain threshold in order to receive that 25%. As far as I know, the modders weren't the ones that came up with this, it was Bethesda.
Under their original mod sale/steam workshop framework, modders only received 25% of the profit of their own mods. I'm not positive on this, but I also think that you had to sell over a certain threshold in order to receive that 25%. As far as I know, the modders weren't the ones that came up with this, it was Bethesda.
BoosterDuck
Banned
paid more are ok, the problem is that Valve and Bethesda haven't shown proper vetting and curating to stop plagiarism, asset flips and copyright infrigement
Aren't they doing QA for those mods now? The idea that all those mods you can buy are guaranteed to work with the dlc etc. sounds enticing to me. Of course will it all depend on well this is executed.
LordRaptor
Member
If they spend time adding hooks to easily allow mods to be integrated without conflicts, spend some time getting their devtools up to public usability and not just some command line batch tools, and are covering all of the infrastrucutre costs like hosting, why shouldn't they?
Nose Master
Member
Despite logical arguments, I'd lean that the vast majority just don't want to pay for something that was once free. Gamers are just being cheap, plain and simple. The steam sale meta of waiting to purchase games so you have enough time to refund them if they show up on humble is a particularly grody example.
The amount of work they'd have to put into policing this will greatly outweigh any money they make. Paid mods, at least as mods exist now, will never be viable.
The amount of work they'd have to put into policing this will greatly outweigh any money they make. Paid mods, at least as mods exist now, will never be viable.
Death Penalty
Member
Lack of regulation is one massive issue. Plagiarism was nearly instant last time and devs and publishers need to be willing to take on an extra level of responsibility and quality control to make this work, and they haven't shown that they have any intention of doing so. The devs taking a cut is also an extremely murky part of it. Even if we ignore the ludicrous lion's share that is likely to be taken, there's also a disturbing conflict of interests. Publishers and devs being able to make money off of a paid mod that fixes glaring issues with their game incentivizes leaving a product in a shoddier state and gives little reason to provide features that can be readily sold. At no cost to Bethesda, mind you, and with them claiming no responsibility for issues of quality despite monetizing the mod.
In my opinion, it's a whole can of worms even if the idea of the little guy getting paid for their hard work is really attractive.
In my opinion, it's a whole can of worms even if the idea of the little guy getting paid for their hard work is really attractive.
Pantaghana
Member
They made the engine, tools and own the IP that draws the crowd. Why in the everloving fuck shouldn't they get a cut?
If they're providing a platform for modders to make money, why not? Plus it's their IP.
RollerMeister
Neo Member
Creators club just seems like a way to add community generated item/skin microtransactions to skyrim and other titles.
I wouldn't want to purchase more complex mods, because that seems like a nightmare in and of itself, since a lot of mods are broken on game updates or are abandonded by the creators.
Also without proper oversight it would open up tons of new avenues for scammers and people who promise the world, but deliver nothing.
I wouldn't want to purchase more complex mods, because that seems like a nightmare in and of itself, since a lot of mods are broken on game updates or are abandonded by the creators.
Also without proper oversight it would open up tons of new avenues for scammers and people who promise the world, but deliver nothing.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
this is the biggest thing that makes all of this so ridiculous.
Bethesda...stop it
this is another great point. Or a lazy modder who doesn't update the mod when the game gets updated.
so you have a broken mod...that you paid for.
there's just way to many logistical issues.
CertifiedFP
Member
As someone who supports the idea of financially supporting modders for their efforts, let me present to you a dystopian vision of THE FUTURE under Bethesda.
Sure, with Fallout 4 and Skyrim SE, it'll start innocent. Just simple mini-DLC stuff. Perhaps some overpriced garbage here and there, but generally OK.
Now let's fast forward to Starfield. Hmm, let's say the UI is like Skyrim's or worse - But thankfully, Creator's Club has a solution! StarUI, only $9.99! That right there is very much a situation Bethesda would be setting up to directly nickel and dime for a basic feature the $60 package should have - a functional UI. Now let's go further - Starfield Script Extender, every essential you need for modding Starfield further than basic content mods, only on Creator's Club at the low price of $4.99!
See the problem here? If Bethesda gets the right people on board, they can set themselves up to ship an incomplete game and make additional do$h off getting people to buy essential elements of the game piecemeal under the guise of "supporting modders".
We can go even further. Say, their next title after Starfield ships with little/no sidequests. Or without other essentials in the $60 package. All set up for Bethesda to sell them to you for more money as "mods" in a fashion similar to Paradox DLCs.
Concerned Yet?
Sure, with Fallout 4 and Skyrim SE, it'll start innocent. Just simple mini-DLC stuff. Perhaps some overpriced garbage here and there, but generally OK.
Now let's fast forward to Starfield. Hmm, let's say the UI is like Skyrim's or worse - But thankfully, Creator's Club has a solution! StarUI, only $9.99! That right there is very much a situation Bethesda would be setting up to directly nickel and dime for a basic feature the $60 package should have - a functional UI. Now let's go further - Starfield Script Extender, every essential you need for modding Starfield further than basic content mods, only on Creator's Club at the low price of $4.99!
See the problem here? If Bethesda gets the right people on board, they can set themselves up to ship an incomplete game and make additional do$h off getting people to buy essential elements of the game piecemeal under the guise of "supporting modders".
We can go even further. Say, their next title after Starfield ships with little/no sidequests. Or without other essentials in the $60 package. All set up for Bethesda to sell them to you for more money as "mods" in a fashion similar to Paradox DLCs.
Concerned Yet?
I'm pro, but.. there's a long list of buts.
- Small mod commoditization (0.25 skins) is awareness dilution. Quality checks are needed.
- Publisher needs to be aware that mods being present are an addition to the value of their base game (Elder Scrolls, XCOM, Arma, Warcraft3, Starcraft have all benefitted heavily from their mod communities) and they don't get a major cut. Their cut is increased sales from the base game, plus a small cut for policing\QA if applicable.
- Valve or the relevant platform holder needs to understand that if they want a cut, they need to do the relevant policing and quality standards.
- Modmod chains need appropriate UI to highlight and solve.
- Modders need to understand that once you sell a product, you owe your customers support.
- Framework mods, and tool mods, need to be financed by the platform holder heavily, and likewise supported.
The wild west approach of everyone selling junk to their hearts' content is just going to burn people out.
- Small mod commoditization (0.25 skins) is awareness dilution. Quality checks are needed.
- Publisher needs to be aware that mods being present are an addition to the value of their base game (Elder Scrolls, XCOM, Arma, Warcraft3, Starcraft have all benefitted heavily from their mod communities) and they don't get a major cut. Their cut is increased sales from the base game, plus a small cut for policing\QA if applicable.
- Valve or the relevant platform holder needs to understand that if they want a cut, they need to do the relevant policing and quality standards.
- Modmod chains need appropriate UI to highlight and solve.
- Modders need to understand that once you sell a product, you owe your customers support.
- Framework mods, and tool mods, need to be financed by the platform holder heavily, and likewise supported.
The wild west approach of everyone selling junk to their hearts' content is just going to burn people out.
Adam_Roman
Member
It all depends on what content comes out of this. If suddenly they expect people to pay to put top hats and monocles on mudcrabs, this is dumb and shitty. However if they're having people pay a few dollars for modest expansions to the games that have Bethesda's approval like new armor tiers or packs of quests, I'm more okay with it. I think it'd work better on a tipping system personally, but that's just me.
Aztechnology
Member
My issue, like many others here, lies I'm the margin that the producers take. Modders often supply invaluable content or fixes and should be making the Lions share for their work. Like someone else said, why the hell should we pay money, effectively to Bethesda as they were taking like 50% for the work someone else did to fix part of their game (as an example).
It's not, but part of modding on the user side is trying multiple things out and see what works for what you want to do with your game, putting a mandatory paywall as the first step completely goes against something like that.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the pile of issues that can stem with something like that.
People say donations don't work, and they're not wrong, but they don't work as of now that doesn't mean they never will.
Neither of the paid mods solution so far seem nowhere near to be able to solve everything about that either.
Aztechnology
Member
The interesting thing is curation certainly plays an important role in the modding ecosystem. And often, the curators are the cmunity on the platform. But also content makers like YouTubers who are making money off by showcasing the modders content. To a lesser degree the mod maker is still getting the short end of the stick. It's a wierd situation.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
another argument is that this would drive down creativity believe it or not. As some people suggest it may increase the quality and depth of mods, it may also drive down the creativity of mods as Modders would see what sells the most then only focus on those kinds of mods....where as more creative outside of the box mods that are more risky to spend time on, end up not being made due to the monetizing aspects.
It can go both ways, and both ways at the sametime.
It can go both ways, and both ways at the sametime.
Aztechnology
Member
Essentially economics do. Good work must receive rewards otherwise it will often be starved out. But people simply will not offer to pay for something of they don't have to, at least not enough to make a difference.
People so things for rewards. They donate to streamers or through patreon they are rewarded (typically) with giveaways, with recognition, with flair that gives them status. Etc.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
either way....this whole idea in the end is mostly bad for gamers. Just a fact.
YoRHa No.2 Type B
Banned
Then they should create their own game in my opinion and charge whatever they want. Of course they can also create mods and charge whatever they want but I find that highly ridiculous.
They create mods for a game they don't own and charge money, this is a bit insulting, I would say. (Now, if they put in hours/days/weeks/months/years into that mod or not, shouldn't even matter)
You would assume that these people would do it for the community.
Now again, if these people want to charge money for that stuff, fine with me. I surely won't buy that. If I want to support someone, I do that on my own.
The moment, when this becomes a trend, is a moment when communities die.
It's Nintendo.
General Lee
Member
There's just too many problems with the whole idea. I do think it would be nice if people who made high quality mods could make some money out of it, but without strict curation it's never going to work. So in essence the only way I see this working is pretty much what they're attempting to do now with essentially hiring third parties to create what is essentially DLC. Whether the created content is worth anyone's money is another matter, but I do like the idea that this gives the actual devs time to concentrate on more meaningful content over nickle-and-dime DLC. What I'm worried about is how it might negatively impact free modding if the publisher/devs see that as now competing with something they gather revenue from.
No, not at all. I wouldn't buy the game. Problem solved.
fabricated backlash
Member
I love how corporations like Valve and Bethesda try to spin this push as some philantropic effort to compensate modders, when in fact it's nothing more than ruthless monetization with no effort on the publisher side.
Modders already have means to getting paid. Donations, paypal... there is literally zero reason other than to milk customers even further for Publishers to get involved.
Modders already have means to getting paid. Donations, paypal... there is literally zero reason other than to milk customers even further for Publishers to get involved.
Have they said how they would handle mods breaking each other? That is a lot of QA testing that has to be done. Even more when mods can break each other every time one of the modders update.
I would be straight up pissed if I was barred from using a mod because all of a sudden it is incompatible with another. Money I might as well flush down the toilet.
Mods are a different ballgame from DLC and I hope they are prepared to handle headaches that come with them.
I would be straight up pissed if I was barred from using a mod because all of a sudden it is incompatible with another. Money I might as well flush down the toilet.
Mods are a different ballgame from DLC and I hope they are prepared to handle headaches that come with them.
Apparently financially supporting a company that consistently puts out shoddy products (and has a reputation for doing it) to the point where they're one of the largest developers/publishers in the industry puts you in a poor position for negotiation with regards to monetary policy and quality control.
Who really could've expected this?
The irony is you hypothesize as though you're still going to keep buying their games because you have no alternative, and that any additional financial burden they decide to put on you is a fait accompli.
The way they describe the Creation Club seems to suggest that the 'mods' created under this banner would be somehow released like DLC's would, built to be somewhat compatible with everything and only bugfixed later, not much else.
ScientificPizza
Banned
I'm not opposed to modders profiting from their work. I'm opposed to Bethesda profiting from modders.
As much as I understand and share the sentiment, realistically in the world we live in, one cannot happen without the other.
I'm not really ok with anyone taking a cut of the mod outside of the mod creator unless they facilitate the dissemination of the mod or provided some sort of core component to the mod. Providing the game itself does not count as wtf man we already pay them for the main product and DLC. The DLC attach rate for skyrim is pretty high so they should be happy about that.
If Bethesda wants to run a storefront for Mods where they curate them to ensure they don't break the game nor contain malicious shit then sure they deserve a cut. They're providing QA and a method to download the mod.
I've backed patreons of mod creators and donated to mods I really like and firmly believe that if you find value in a product you should pay for it(if you can). Patreon takes a cut of everything paid towards these creators but its a platform that handles paying the mod creators, charge back protection, provides a blog, file hosting and now live video. So sure they deserve a cut much like steam does for existing.
Places like nexus and other sites provide hosting from advertisements and premium services but nothing in this world is free.
A more problematic future is if Bethesda makes it so you have to go through their storefront and there is no other way to mod their games. At that point content creators would be unable to navigate to platforms which provide them with whatever they need.
People who get pissed and shit on content creators for asking for money is really silly. If you don't like what they're offering then don't use it. Most of the best Modders and content creators eventually release their stuff for free afew months down the line as well.
If Bethesda wants to run a storefront for Mods where they curate them to ensure they don't break the game nor contain malicious shit then sure they deserve a cut. They're providing QA and a method to download the mod.
I've backed patreons of mod creators and donated to mods I really like and firmly believe that if you find value in a product you should pay for it(if you can). Patreon takes a cut of everything paid towards these creators but its a platform that handles paying the mod creators, charge back protection, provides a blog, file hosting and now live video. So sure they deserve a cut much like steam does for existing.
Places like nexus and other sites provide hosting from advertisements and premium services but nothing in this world is free.
A more problematic future is if Bethesda makes it so you have to go through their storefront and there is no other way to mod their games. At that point content creators would be unable to navigate to platforms which provide them with whatever they need.
People who get pissed and shit on content creators for asking for money is really silly. If you don't like what they're offering then don't use it. Most of the best Modders and content creators eventually release their stuff for free afew months down the line as well.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
Yes. People should be paid for good work. Not every simple mod should be sold but the ones that obviously took alot of effort should.