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charlequin · Feb 8, 2011

canova said:
How can the need for strategy guide be construed as the game has failed to present itself properly?

For any well-constructed game, a strategy guide should never be necessary to understand the functioning of a game system. It's good to have complex and deep systems, but the basics of these systems should be clear inside the game, with all the mechanics and subsystems clearly explained, with the complexity naturally emerging from the player making use of those understood and explained mechanics rather than from the difficulty of trying to work out how the mechanics work.

Ideally, a strategy guide should at best include maps, NPC and object locations, item stats, etc. -- things that a player could compile entirely themselves simply by playing the game, like a distilled version of the "other people's strategies" mentioned in the article. That way, players who want to look things up have a reference while other players who want to play entirely on their own are free to do so.

TheExecutive said:
What's wrong with crystal gecko's?

Misused apostrophe.

Acosta · Feb 8, 2011

GOTG!

John Harker said:
Well I don't know about the anus part, but Dark Rings sounds like Eternal Ring, which to me was the worst of all the team's games (which coincidently is the only title in the genre that did not have Shinichiro Nishida on scenario/map design, hmmm) under Naotoshi Zin, so Dark Souls wins for not going with that connotation and choosing a Demon's Souls link anywho.

Oh, come on, that's not fair, Eternal Ring was a launch game of PS2, it probably was pretty brutal for the team to deliver that, with Nishida or without him.

John Harker · Feb 8, 2011

Acosta said:
Oh, come on, that's not fair, Eternal Ring was a launch game of PS2, it probably was pretty brutal for the team to deliver that, with Nishida or without him.

Maybe they shouldn't have tried to do Evergrace at the same time!
I actually didn't play Evergrace, but maybe I should have - Nishida was Supervising.

I don't think ER was bad per se, I just really really liked King's Field, King's Field II, Shadow Tower, and King's Field: The Ancient City.

If I had to pick one of them to be the weakest entry, it was ER. It felt so sterile to me. It didn't have the dark, gothic atmosphere of the other titles (which they returned to in Demon's/Dark Souls). Did you enjoy it? It's honestly the only one I didn't complete.

prodystopian · Feb 8, 2011

I haven't been buying many games early (backlog!), but after finishing Demon's Souls last month, this is sounding more and more like a day 1 purchase. I wish Atlus were publishing for the good bonuses they usually throw in.

I'm really interested in hearing the specifics behind the weapon system this time. I have no doubts about the level design, combat, etc., but I wasn't a huge fan of the upgrade system in the last game.

Acosta · Feb 8, 2011

John Harker said:
Maybe they shouldn't have tried to do Evergrace at the same time!
I actually didn't play Evergrace, but maybe I should have - Nishida was Supervising. :

haha, yes, that's true, I forgot. From is really hardcore.

BobTheFork · Feb 8, 2011

Good interview, but I thought asking if any Namco characters would be in the game was a really really really really bad question. really bad.

duckroll · Feb 8, 2011

BobTheFork said:
Good interview, but I thought asking if any Namco characters would be in the game was a really really really really bad question. really bad.

Why?

Zzoram · Feb 8, 2011

I think the upgrade system was fine. They just needed to be more transparent about what upgrades a weapon could get and what prerequisite upgrades were. Giving %DMG increase instead of vague letters would've been nice too.

Also all stones should've been possible to get from enemies you can farm, not bullshit like limited spawn crystal geckos that run away and disappear if you didn't read a guide and know in advance where they are.

Tylahedras · Feb 8, 2011

Someone said invincible NPCs? Other then the maiden? Who?

duckroll · Feb 8, 2011

Zzoram said:
I think the upgrade system was fine. They just needed to be more transparent about what upgrades a weapon could get and what prerequisite upgrades were. Giving %DMG increase instead of vague letters would've been nice too.

Also all stones should've been possible to get from enemies you can farm, not bullshit like limited spawn crystal geckos that run away and disappear if you didn't read a guide and know in advance where they are.

Right, they're not going to rip the entire system out because people didn't get it. They're going to instead try and work hard at helping people get it this time. Comprehension is very important for in-depth numbers based systems. Miyazaki feels that they failed in the first game because too many people simply didn't get it, or were frustrated when they realized that they have been penalized for stuff without it being clear what was expected or required of them by the system.

His aim is to improve the system by improving clarity and understanding of the system so it doesn't feel like some alien interface.

Haunted · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
Right, they're not going to rip the entire system out because people didn't get it. They're going to instead try and work hard at helping people get it this time. Comprehension is very important for in-depth numbers based systems. Miyazaki feels that they failed in the first game because too many people simply didn't get it, or were frustrated when they realized that they have been penalized for stuff without it being clear what was expected or required of them by the system.

His aim is to improve the system by improving clarity and understanding of the system so it doesn't feel like some alien interface.

woo!

Infinite Justice · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
Right, they're not going to rip the entire system out because people didn't get it. They're going to instead try and work hard at helping people get it this time. Comprehension is very important for in-depth numbers based systems. Miyazaki feels that they failed in the first game because too many people simply didn't get it, or were frustrated when they realized that they have been penalized for stuff without it being clear what was expected or required of them by the system.

His aim is to improve the system by improving clarity and understanding of the system so it doesn't feel like some alien interface.

Sounds good.

Canova · Feb 8, 2011

charlequin said:
For any well-constructed game, a strategy guide should never be necessary to understand the functioning of a game system. It's good to have complex and deep systems, but the basics of these systems should be clear inside the game, with all the mechanics and subsystems clearly explained, with the complexity naturally emerging from the player making use of those understood and explained mechanics rather than from the difficulty of trying to work out how the mechanics work.

Ideally, a strategy guide should at best include maps, NPC and object locations, item stats, etc. -- things that a player could compile entirely themselves simply by playing the game, like a distilled version of the "other people's strategies" mentioned in the article. That way, players who want to look things up have a reference while other players who want to play entirely on their own are free to do so.

Misused apostrophe.

I think we should distinguish which aspect of the game is responsible to guide the players. Is it the game itself or the documentation that comes with the game? I would rather not have a game that guide me by the hand with pop-ups

Personally why I have come to love Demon's Souls so much, is that it doesn't take you by the hand and guide you. I have to find things out myself. The more I explore, play, observe, the more things I discover. I have to play a lot of playthroughs to figure things out, which adds to its replayability. The game has so many layers, as if there's always a mystery or secret hidden somewhere. That's what intrigued me the most.

Pinko Marx · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
New details on the expanded multiplayer features.

- Miyazaki also sheds the most detail we've heard so far about the new multiplayer systems. For the "sharing of experiences" part, he details it as such that he wants to create the feeling of players helping each other through difficulty parts, but integrated as part of the game. In a comparison, he says he really liked the good old says where people played Dragon Quest and would share their strategies with other players, and people would talk about their different experiences through the game, and in doing so help those who are having difficulty. He says there will be more details later.

- As for the "mutual role playing" system, he wants to create a feeling where other players interact with each other throughout the game even as each player plays their own game. While there are elements of this in Demon's Souls, this system specifically wants to take both co-op play and PvP play to the next level. The example he gives here is Lord of the Rings. In LotR, Frodo discovers the One Ring, which is a valuable item, and he is tasked to keep it and protect it. That is his role. On the other hand, there are the black riders who have long searched for this valuable item throughout the world. When Frodo possesses the ring, their roles clash because of contradicting objectives. If the black rider happens to defeat Frodo and attain the ring, then he is a fortunate player who managed to get what he wants, the player who loses the ring because he failed to protect it is unfortunate...

Most interesting part of the interview right here, especially that last quote. Can't wait to see how this pans out.

Krauser Kat · Feb 8, 2011

please let me aim magic. or make a mage archer, with magic arrows. I like the game being purposely vague with everything but the SABCDE stat bonus. Because S on one weapons was completely different with S from another weapon. Everything else was more or less easier to figure out.

duckroll · Feb 8, 2011

Pinko Marx said:
Most interesting part of the interview right here, especially that last quote. Can't wait to see how this pans out.

I think the "mutual role playing" system in Dark Souls is going to be a massively expanded set of various gameplay scenarios throughout the game which are inspired by the Old Monk boss fight in 3-3. In Demon's Souls, outside of that encounter, the game's design and scenario never really interacted with the multiplayer systems. Here, the director seems to want to take it to the next level, instead of just leaving co-op and PvP elements to be entirely separated elements of the game itself.

duckroll · Feb 8, 2011

animlboogy said:
Oddly enough, Demon's Souls literally does guide you with pop-ups. You don't need a strategy guide because you have players helping you with messages, death scenes and co-op. Its like a single player game through and through, that just happens to be so completely brutal that while it isn't really a multiplayer title, it lets you sort of help each other.

It isn't exactly handholding but I feel like this argument is kind of off. You don't need a strategy guide at all, nor do you go through the game without external help due to the design of the game.

I think this particular discussion is entirely centered around the weapon upgrade system in the game. This is an area the director has zoned in on as being too vague and undocumented (in a bad way) in the original game, and something he is working to improve on for Dark Souls.

Canova · Feb 8, 2011

Where's my Dark Souls demo? Can I play with Japanese players this time?

- Miyazaki says there will probably not be a downloadable demo for the game, although they do plan on making the game playable at various events and playable sessions. The point he made is that the game is not one which can be easily explained or appreciated in a short period of time or in a small segment. He seems to feel that a playable demo of the game would be a waste of time for the developer and the players.

- He also confirms that Dark Souls is not just a worldwide game in terms of release, but also in the the online space. He was disappointed that they could not implement an online system for Demon's Souls where all players could play together, and it's a pity because the online system was specifically designed such that it did not require direct interaction between languages. For Dark Souls you will be able to play with players all over the world.

this is the most interesting part. Now that we can play with players all over the world, means that online will always be busy

Yaweee · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
Right, they're not going to rip the entire system out because people didn't get it. They're going to instead try and work hard at helping people get it this time. Comprehension is very important for in-depth numbers based systems. Miyazaki feels that they failed in the first game because too many people simply didn't get it, or were frustrated when they realized that they have been penalized for stuff without it being clear what was expected or required of them by the system.

His aim is to improve the system by improving clarity and understanding of the system so it doesn't feel like some alien interface.

I'm only now playing through Demon's Souls, but I do agree that the game dropped the ball in some vital ways that aren't easily inferred, namely with how equipment burden and movement type works. Dropping below 50% so I gained the "quick" movement type has made the game so incredibly easier, but there's nothing in game or in the instruction to really explain how that absolutely fundamental gameplay mechanic works.

Canova · Feb 8, 2011

animlboogy said:
Oddly enough, Demon's Souls literally does guide you with pop-ups. You don't need a strategy guide because you have players helping you with messages, death scenes and co-op. Its like a single player game through and through, that just happens to be so completely brutal that while it isn't really a multiplayer title, it lets you sort of help each other.

It isn't exactly handholding but I feel like this argument is kind of off. You don't need a strategy guide at all, nor do you go through the game without external help due to the design of the game.

exactly, they implemented pop-ups ingeniously

duckroll · Feb 8, 2011

canova said:
this is the most interesting part. Now that we can play with players all over the world, means that online will always be busy

Very busy? Or very dangerous? Miyazaki wants to find a way to kill every single player who thinks he/she is in a safe place. Maybe he will be making us of fellow players to do his dirty work for him too, with "mutual role playing".

2real4tv · Feb 8, 2011

My question:
Why not a PC version?

hsukardi · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
Very busy? Or very dangerous? Miyazaki wants to find a way to kill every single player who thinks he/she is in a safe place. Maybe he will be making us of fellow players to do his dirty work for him too, with "mutual role playing".

One good example of mutual roleplaying in DS was a player playing the enemy boss of one of the levels for another player.

Canova · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
Very busy? Or very dangerous? Miyazaki wants to find a way to kill every single player who thinks he/she is in a safe place. Maybe he will be making us of fellow players to do his dirty work for him too, with "mutual role playing".

lol a bit of both, blood-thirsty invaders are gonna have a field day with this one

duckroll · Feb 8, 2011

2real4tv said:
My question:
Why not a PC version?

It might be out of their scope and budget for the moment.

Lyonaz · Feb 8, 2011

The more interviews with Miyazaki I read, the more I like the guy. His philosophy on game design are pretty much all spot on with how I like games to be.

Dark Souls Game of the Eternity confirmed!

BobTheFork · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
Why?

It just seemed very out of place. Did they really expect characters from any other series (regardless of who backed the game) to suddenly appear in DS? Maybe really bad isn't what I mean, just really out of place. That and the DLC question were like asking 'hey is the game going to be worse because Namco is involved?' I don't know, maybe that's a valid question but It didn't feel like it was warranted.

Canova · Feb 8, 2011

Lyonaz said:
The more interviews with Miyazaki I read, the more I like the guy. His philosophy on game design are pretty much all spot on with how I like games to be.

Dark Souls Game of the Eternity confirmed!

In his other interviewed he mentioned

It makes a change to hear a developer talking about how their new game will give fans more of what they're used to, rather than how it will reboot the series or redefine the genre or raise the bar so high it pushes the envelope to the next level.

which I like to hear, so first and foremost he wanted to give the existing fans more of what we love. He doesn't try to re-invent the wheels or reboot it just to attract new players.

Nice to hear developers that prioritize their existing fanbase

bigdaddygamebot · Feb 8, 2011

duckroll said:
I think this particular discussion is entirely centered around the weapon upgrade system in the game. This is an area the director has zoned in on as being too vague and undocumented (in a bad way) in the original game, and something he is working to improve on for Dark Souls.

If it's this and only this...then splendid.

duckroll · Feb 8, 2011

BobTheFork said:
It just seemed very out of place. Did they really expect characters from any other series (regardless of who backed the game) to suddenly appear in DS? Maybe really bad isn't what I mean, just really out of place. That and the DLC question were like asking 'hey is the game going to be worse because Namco is involved?' I don't know, maybe that's a valid question but It didn't feel like it was warranted.

It's called journalism. Maybe gamers are unfamiliar with this considering how shitty much media outlets are for gaming. This question is something which many people were already asking when the deal was made public. Asking a direct question is not unwarranted at all. Bandai Namco Games is a publisher how has done way more cross-game collaborations and nickel and dime DLC across almost all their franchises, especially in Japan. It's not an unusual question at all, but it's not one that most of the press would ask because most of them are just extended PR mouthpieces for publishers.

-Pyromaniac- · Feb 8, 2011

Thanks for posting, good read. Like I said this game is sounding too good to be true like a few other upcoming games but I have faith in him. Also I hope the weapon system maintains its complexity and depth, they just have to throw in some tutorial or some shit that explains it to the player so no one can complain.

charlequin · Feb 8, 2011

canova said:
I think we should distinguish which aspect of the game is responsible to guide the players. Is it the game itself or the documentation that comes with the game?

Any time a user has to look something up in external documentation, it's a failure of game design. Complexity in a game should always originate from interesting choice points or intricate interactions of individually simple interface elements, not from hiding functionality from the player.

In terms of things like weapon customization systems in particular, a well-designed system can be almost infinitely complex but it needs to present that to the player in a reasonable fashion, including by providing all relevant information in a clear way.

Yaweee · Feb 8, 2011

charlequin said:
Any time a user has to look something up in external documentation, it's a failure of game design. Complexity in a game should always originate from interesting choice points or intricate interactions of individually simple interface elements, not from hiding functionality from the player.

This this this times one-million.

I really dislike having to look up mechanics guides for games, and I feel like Demon's Souls certainly suffers from that, at least with how far I am through the game right now.

Speevy · Feb 8, 2011

No DLC PLEASE

Demon's Souls is one of only a handful of PS3 games where the entire experience is on the disc.

Raide · Feb 8, 2011

Speevy said:
No DLC PLEASE

Demon's Souls is one of only a handful of PS3 games where the entire experience is on the disc.

I agree if the DLC is "New Hat 200 points!" but if they have DLC which adds new areas, new challenges and even more Dark Souls to play, I would happily buy it. They have already said it will be 60 odd hours, so I don't see them short-changing fans now.

BeeDog · Feb 8, 2011

charlequin said:
Any time a user has to look something up in external documentation, it's a failure of game design. Complexity in a game should always originate from interesting choice points or intricate interactions of individually simple interface elements, not from hiding functionality from the player.

In terms of things like weapon customization systems in particular, a well-designed system can be almost infinitely complex but it needs to present that to the player in a reasonable fashion, including by providing all relevant information in a clear way.

I honestly found it refreshing that Demon's Souls hid certain game elements from the player. The only reason I can see for people to care about the underlying mechanics of Demon's Souls is to hoard the trophies, because other than that, the player will find enough good loot in the game without affecting World/Player Tendencies and whatnot. Also, in regards to the weapon customization, the unclear way forces the player to experiment (unless the player in question reads up on the DS wiki). The abstract nature of the game adds depth in a way that's not common, in my humble opinion.

Speevy · Feb 8, 2011

I must say that among games this generation, Demon's Souls' goals and mechanics were almost immediately apparent to me. Sure there were a few things I had to look up, but not to the point I could not play.

And the best games are those in which you pick up the controller and it's all very clear to you.

Sloppy game design is when you have to have 15 NPCs tell you how things should be done, then you have to follow them around because you'd otherwise have no idea where to go.

That's just my opinion though.

Yaweee · Feb 8, 2011

BeeDog said:
I honestly found it refreshing that Demon's Souls hid certain game elements from the player. The only reason I can see for people to care about the underlying mechanics of Demon's Souls is to hoard the trophies, because other than that, the player will find enough good loot in the game without affecting World/Player Tendencies and whatnot. The abstract nature of the game adds depth in a way that's not common, in my humble opinion.

Not describing the nitty-gritty behind loot mechanics is one thing, but not describing how the weight and movement types work is something completely different.

BeeDog · Feb 8, 2011

Yaweee said:
Not describing the nitty-gritty behind loot mechanics is one thing, but not describing how the weight and movement types work is something completely different.

I don't agree, because in that case, common sense also works. I mean, strapping on heavy armor should immediately make the slower movement apparent, so basic stuff like that doesn't bother me. I guess I should clarify, I don't mind the abstract nature of the game, but I understand if others don't. I just hope Dark Souls doesn't deviate from the structure that DS established.

Forkball · Feb 8, 2011

The whole Oblivion part of the interview makes me think the areas are just connected like they're in a giant tube or something.

Vinci · Feb 8, 2011

charlequin said:
Any time a user has to look something up in external documentation, it's a failure of game design. Complexity in a game should always originate from interesting choice points or intricate interactions of individually simple interface elements, not from hiding functionality from the player.

The fact that this is even under debate of any kind, or people are defending Demon's Souls contrary to this perspective, is a bit depressing. I love the damn game, but it wasn't perfect - especially in this regard.

Vicetrailia · Feb 8, 2011

Yaweee said:
I'm only now playing through Demon's Souls, but I do agree that the game dropped the ball in some vital ways that aren't easily inferred, namely with how equipment burden and movement type works. Dropping below 50% so I gained the "quick" movement type has made the game so incredibly easier, but there's nothing in game or in the instruction to really explain how that absolutely fundamental gameplay mechanic works.

Something like this is fine because you basically find out what the deal is from experience right away, so I don't think that this is a good example.

Yaweee · Feb 8, 2011

BeeDog said:
I don't agree, because in that case, common sense also works. I mean, strapping on heavy armor should immediately make the slower movement apparent, so basic stuff like that doesn't bother me. I guess I should clarify, I don't mind the abstract nature of the game, but I understand if others don't. I just hope Dark Souls doesn't deviate from the structure that DS established.

I had no idea that getting 50% under the equipment burden was some magic number that made the game overwhelmingly easier. It just felt like something so fundamental to the game that it should have been overtly explained.

It makes some sense that it has an influence on your speed, but its binary nature made it too difficult to discern naturally.

Vicetrailia · Feb 8, 2011

Yaweee said:
I had no idea that getting 50% under the equipment burden was some magic number that made the game overwhelmingly easier. It just felt like something so fundamental to the game that it should have been overtly explained.

It makes some sense that it has an influence on your speed, but its binary nature made it too difficult to discern naturally.

So what did you actually do? You probably mixed and matched armor until you could roll just fine.

No explanation is needed and you don't even have to be aware of the magic number. To me it is not necessary.

zerokoolpsx · Feb 8, 2011

He also confirms that Dark Souls is not just a worldwide game in terms of release, but also in the the online space. He was disappointed that they could not implement an online system for Demon's Souls where all players could play together, and it's a pity because the online system was specifically designed such that it did not require direct interaction between languages. For Dark Souls you will be able to play with players all over the world.

More good news.

jyx · Feb 8, 2011

Head over to andriasang for more....

Corto · Feb 8, 2011

First of all, thanks Duckroll for your trouble.

And this should be Game Development Gospel:

charlequin said:
Any time a user has to look something up in external documentation, it's a failure of game design. Complexity in a game should always originate from interesting choice points or intricate interactions of individually simple interface elements, not from hiding functionality from the player.

In terms of things like weapon customization systems in particular, a well-designed system can be almost infinitely complex but it needs to present that to the player in a reasonable fashion, including by providing all relevant information in a clear way.

War games in particular need to reach that stage of interface refinement. Sorry for the tangent.

edit:

jyx said:
Head over to andriasang for more....

Miyazaki's personal anecdotes entering the industry are mind blowing. To think that such a talent was doing accounting work until his 30... Wow.

Ravidrath · Feb 8, 2011

The main problem I had with the weapon upgrade system was how final it was.

I'm OK experimenting and figuring something out if the costs are minimal to me, but considering how hard it is to get some of the stones, the price of experimenting is just too high.

I think all they would've had to do it make it so if you spend some souls to revert items that you get the materials back.

Cloudius12 · Feb 8, 2011

- He also confirms that Dark Souls is not just a worldwide game in terms of release, but also in the the online space. He was disappointed that they could not implement an online system for Demon's Souls where all players could play together, and it's a pity because the online system was specifically designed such that it did not require direct interaction between languages. For Dark Souls you will be able to play with players all over the world.

Canova · Feb 8, 2011

here's the full 4Gamer interview from andriaSang

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/02/09/miyazaki_dark_souls/

fucking badass!!

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4Gamer's extensive Dark Souls interview with the director

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Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.

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