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Let's talk about a small scene from Raimi's Spider-Man 2...
- Thread starter SCULLIBUNDO
- Start date
CrichtonKicks
Member
I can't speak to the pro-capitalist message but Homecoming never really deals with any sort of class struggles. Peter is going to a Science & Technical high school which seems to draw people from all different economic strata and even though someone like Liz is essentially living in a mansion there is no sense that that there is any sort of cultural divide between Peter and Liz (or Flash with his, er, flashy car) over that separation.
To bring it back to John Hughes- Peter should essentially be the Molly Ringwaldl character in "Pretty in Pink" with Liz being Blaine. But the film never touches that.
Spider-Man aside, Peter honestly has a pretty damn good life all around.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
The hell?
This is the same defense used for ASM. Just wait for ASM2! That's obviously what they're building toward! A long-form arc.
FYI, Peter had just as strong development in SM1.
A perfect example of the difference of Peter in SM1 to Peter in Homecoming is that Homecoming Peter feels entitled to Stark's super-suit that does everything for him.
In Spider-Man 1, a (again, broke-as-fuck) struggling Peter Parker is offered help from Norman Osbourne, who offers to make a call to get Peter a job 'It's no problem. I'll make a couple calls.'
Peter's response? Thank you. But I like to earn what I get.
Osbourne's (who is the fucking villain of this film) then displays a quiet admiration of Peter: You want to make it on your own steam. Good for you.
So no. When you have 120 minutes to tell a story, and you can develop the moral compass of your character in such a short amount of time, saying 'Just wait for the second movie' is not a valid excuse imo.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Peter Parker in homecoming is STILL a 15 year old kid at the end....
Elwood Blues
Member
They would have to jam Tony Stark in that scene nowadays.
BronsonLee
Member
Sculli that's because Peter in SM1 was a fucking dumbass
If your dad's best friend wants to give ya a boost
YOU TAKE THE BOOST
NO WONDER HE LET HIS UNCLE DIE
If your dad's best friend wants to give ya a boost
YOU TAKE THE BOOST
NO WONDER HE LET HIS UNCLE DIE
PeakPointMatrix
Member
Still the #1 Marvel film hands down.
SomewhatGroovy
Banned
Had no problem taking favors from his friend to chill with Alfred Molina tho.
Indecisive Peter is the worst Peter.
CrichtonKicks
Member
That's different. Harry allowed him to get an interview with Otto for a school paper. That's a world of difference from taking a job from your friend's dad.
Blueingreen
Member
Thats a great Scene I'm glad you pointed it out as it further exemplifies why Spiderman 2 is still the best Superhero movie ever made for me, even when you take out the Spiderman scenes your still left with an interesting character study/ drama of a film.
It's why I'm hardly a fan of the the MCU they're just overblown action cgi spectacles with two dimensional soulless characters, theres more humanity conveyed in that 45 second scene in Spiderman 2 than the entirety of comic book movies in the last decade.
It's why I'm hardly a fan of the the MCU they're just overblown action cgi spectacles with two dimensional soulless characters, theres more humanity conveyed in that 45 second scene in Spiderman 2 than the entirety of comic book movies in the last decade.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Opinions don't have to be a collective. There is no we.
Never liked Homecoming for me to turn on it.
SomewhatGroovy
Banned
These moments of feels we are discussing here are peppered around in the other films as well. We talking ten minutes of Spiderman 2 and Spiderman 1 at most when Power Rangers or Kirsten Dunst aren't running their mouths. While these moments being discussed are welcomed, they're buried underneath a lot of garbage.
Mary Jane is literally begging for affection at a funeral.
It's not really turning on it, at least I enjoyed it and had a good time. But it's clear watching it it wasn't going to touch the first two Raimi films. They're just better films.
Always felt bad for the neighbour girl, she was too cute for peter not to go out with her
God i love the raimi films. Absolutely nailed the peter parker nerdy unconfidant bits and still had some humour and gut wrenching moments. problem with holland and garfield is that there still way to confidant in peter parker mode for me.
That's what the sequel is for.
Homecoming is a fantastic movie and does many things better than all past Spiderman movies. But this topic is about a thing that it didn't, and that's completely fair.
Mighty Chin
Banned
That's the humanity of those movies.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Bro, Peter denying Mary Jane at the gravesite is a fucking perfect scene that better defines who Peter Parker is than anything that has come since. That scene is absolute perfection. Giving up absolutely everything that he's ever wanted to do the right thing.
Calling that garbage is mind-boggling to me.
BronsonLee
Member
I just watched a SM2 clip where Doc Ock has Aunt May captive and it ends with her slamming the shit out of him in the face with her umbrella
Raimi the true god
First girl wins bruh
Raimi the true god
Always felt bad for the neighbour girl, she was too cute for peter not to go out with her
First girl wins bruh
No, he's right. Mary Jane was written horrifically in that scene, almost embarrassingly so. It's easy to forget though because the monologue that follows and McGuire's performance is so good that it erases that part of the scene from memory.
Nah. Better character work in SM1.
That's not (as if it was ever) a good excuse anymore.
Professor Beef
Banned
I know that talking is a free action, but the amount of time she had to make that swing was ridiculous
BronsonLee
Member
She had to time it for dramatic effect yo
SomewhatGroovy
Banned
I have no desire to root for any character whose standards are to be with someone who was so self centered, she would shine a light on her need to be loved in the middle of a fucking funeral. I now have two insecure and self centerered characters taking me to the end credits.
The Green Ranger should have won.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Who is the second self-centered character? Peter? I wanna hear this one.
And I don't know how you could see everybody having left and the funeral over as the middle of a funeral.
AlexFlame116
Member
I'm gonna wait for Homecoming 2 before I make any sort of comparisons between series. Especially comparing a sequel to a new start. Yes I know that's a dumb excuse but I'm sticking to it.
Sorry it's just that that scene bewteen Peter and Aunt May is something that I'm going through right now and it hurts to think about it.
Sorry it's just that that scene bewteen Peter and Aunt May is something that I'm going through right now and it hurts to think about it.
That wasn't exactly a serious comment but I think if they build on Homecoming it could be amazing and better than the Raimi movies. The foundation is incredibly strong.
Blueingreen
Member
I wasn't instigating these films are perfect, Mary Jane is easily the achilles heel of these films even in 2, nonetheless I was pointing out an area in which they excell is still rather unique in the whole genre, whether they constitute as "feels" to you is fine as it's your opinion, however in my opinion they make for far more interesting films than the homogeneous cgi dreck I've seen in MCU over the last decade.
And that's my problem with Homecoming, I liked 15 Peter Parker in comic books when I was younger but now when I'm at the age where I've just began tasting what the real world is, I just can't relate to some middle class juvenile millenial cocky teenager that still lives with his parents/guardian. The best description I heard of the movie was from Kermode when he described it as Ferris Beuller with super powers and that's fine and dandy unfortunately that character was always a glorification of what he represented than who he was, and the latter is was what I find more interesting in movies about characters
VeryGooster
Banned
I'm still a sucker for the scene where Aunt May is moving and gives Peter the "hero in all of us" speech even though it's on the nose but Rosemary Harris nails it.
I'm okay with Homecoming, but its tone didn't really resonate with me.
I'm okay with Homecoming, but its tone didn't really resonate with me.
To quote myself from a Rogue One thread.
Now basically just apply the same principle to Spiderman movies and comics.
Or you know, any pop culture adaptation.
Oi! I can never tell in these threads.
But yeah, anything's possible. I'd be for it.
100 percent agree neighbor hope girl was so much better.Always felt bad for the neighbour girl, she was too cute for peter not to go out with her
God i love the raimi films. Absolutely nailed the peter parker nerdy unconfidant bits and still had some humour and gut wrenching moments. problem with holland and garfield is that there still way to confidant in peter parker mode for me.
SomewhatGroovy
Banned
He takes a few steps away to go visit Ben. Then she proposition him . It should have been apparent then and there that there was something wrong with the woman. Here is how the dialogue should have gone
Peter (walking away from Ben's grave after being rudely interrupted) : "This is my gift; this is my curse. Who am I?
I'm the guy walking away from some crazy nut asking me to kiss her over my Uncle Ben's cold dead body after another funeral. That's who I am motherfuckah!"
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
I'm having flashbacks to all those Amazing Spider-Man threads with so many posters arguing that Peter's lack of character development/an arc would only serve the second film to create this long-form arc.
The exact same thing is happening in this thread. Excuses for poor/barely existent character development coming in the form of 'But think about the potential that sets up for the sequel!'
It actually reads to me like people saying Think about how much better the sequel could seem if the writing weren't lazy like in the first movie!, like the first movie's job is to act as the ugly friend for the sequel to seem good by association. And that's being treated as a good thing.
I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no excuse nor benefit to Peter Parker being underdeveloped throughout a two hour film.
The exact same thing is happening in this thread. Excuses for poor/barely existent character development coming in the form of 'But think about the potential that sets up for the sequel!'
It actually reads to me like people saying Think about how much better the sequel could seem if the writing weren't lazy like in the first movie!, like the first movie's job is to act as the ugly friend for the sequel to seem good by association. And that's being treated as a good thing.
I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no excuse nor benefit to Peter Parker being underdeveloped throughout a two hour film.
Blueingreen
Member
The scene where she invited him over for a cake and the camera is just fixed at them at the table as she watches him eat in silence, I thought it was awkward but looking back that's the whole point it adds some what of a sentimental undertone to it, there's obvious chemistry and allot to work on as a story arc from that alone, but it never went anywhere but did it have to?
I enjoyed Homecoming after the absolutely horrible Webb films but it didn't touch Raimis.
When Pete tells May he needs another backpack in the Thai restaurant that was another example of how entitled this version was. Raimis Peter would be using a paper bag not his 6th backpack from May. Also would have made Flash's bullying more effective in the film.
When Pete tells May he needs another backpack in the Thai restaurant that was another example of how entitled this version was. Raimis Peter would be using a paper bag not his 6th backpack from May. Also would have made Flash's bullying more effective in the film.
I recently thought that she might as well know he is Spider-Man.
SomewhatGroovy
Banned
Sculli I think people are being sarcastic with the 'wait for H2'.
At least I hope they are.
Each movie should work as a self contained story.
At least I hope they are.
Each movie should work as a self contained story.
The Raimi movies are all about New York. The first one is about learning, the second about adapting and the third about controlling.
Twig and Berries
Member
He wasn't horribly underdeveloped for most people. Spider-Man 2 being a better movie doesn't suddenly make Homecoming a bad film, especially since, as Roger Ebert put it, the former is quite possibly the best superhero movie ever made.
Homecoming was great. Sorry it didn't work for you. No need to throw a fit over it though.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
How much time passed in universe between SM1 and start of SM2?
A year? Two years?
I think homecoming maybe a month elapsed? If even that?
Peter grew a lot for a month imo...
A year? Two years?
I think homecoming maybe a month elapsed? If even that?
Peter grew a lot for a month imo...
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
I watched this video today, and want to give it more clicks.
https://youtu.be/m1kT0vFXd0w?t=19m5s SM2 stuff starts at 19m in.
Here is ComicBookGirl19 going over Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2. The internal conflict between life as Peter and duty of being Spider-Man.
I agree with much of what she is saying and why the movie works so well. I pretty much love all of Raimi's stuff though.
I haven't seen Homecoming yet, btw.
https://youtu.be/m1kT0vFXd0w?t=19m5s SM2 stuff starts at 19m in.
Here is ComicBookGirl19 going over Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2. The internal conflict between life as Peter and duty of being Spider-Man.
I agree with much of what she is saying and why the movie works so well. I pretty much love all of Raimi's stuff though.
I haven't seen Homecoming yet, btw.
Vampfox
Banned
Spider-Man 2 takes place two years after SM 1.
Spider-Man 3 takes place six months after SM 2 according to wikiapedia.
Blueingreen
Member
This 100 percent, I also liked how NYC was a character in itself rather than background wallpaper in the subsequent films, one thing I hated about TASM movies they may As well have taken place in Denver and all would have been the same.
I'm not even gonna lie, I had a huge crush on that girl when I was younger. Her awkward sincerity made her feel like a real character.
I actually sort of agree. We're in the MCU "interconnected universe" now. We already know ahead of time that there are 2 more Spider-Man solo films, as well as his appearance in 2 Avengers films. It feels like a lot of character development for both Peter and the entire cast was punted to subsequent movies. Perhaps the movies "should" work entirely as standalone, but it's evident Marvel is leveraging the flexibility in knowing Homecoming is just a small slice of Peter Parker's development and we'll be in for the long haul in seeing him grow over many years.
Homecoming is also the youngest Parker we've seen on the big screen by at least a couple years, I believe, and he acts similarly immature in a lot of ways. I'm thinking we'll see the MCU Parker grow into those deeper heroic qualities and the weight of those changes will feel really impactful since we'll have been able to witness Parker maturing before our eyes over the course of years.