Shogmaster
Member
Still coming up as 89 on my end.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Tablets for Art (Surface, Yoga, iPad Pro etc.) Deals Thread [to be updated regularly]
- Thread starter Shogmaster
- Start date
What's the point for the machine that gets bogged down with updates + slowest possible flash storage for an OS that uses a really old file system not optimized for that setup?
Ah, that's weird. It's $89 on Microsoft.com, but I had another link saved on Microsoftstore.com which is where it's $149.
Shogmaster
Member
Let's not be too dramatic. They are slow but usable. I have a 8" with older (4.1?) eMMC. It's fine for light sketching and stuff.
Shogmaster
Member
I have run CS3 on older Atom tablet with about 66% of CPU performance. With layers.
That's interesting, unfortunately I do not live in the US to take advantage of the deal.
Your suggestion did made me go down the rabbit hole of 2-in-1s with Atom, Core m, Y, U etc... phew. There's a lot of CPUs out there, and I havent even started to compare digitizers. Do Atoms hold up for digital painting in say Photoshop at native res?
Right now I'm eyeing the Surface Pro 4 Signature Edition m3 / 4GB / 128GB SSD, it's not super cheap but there's a cashback program that puts it at around the same price as the Samsung S3 and iPad Pro (well iPad maybe a bit more due to the cost of the pen). Maybe comparing apples to oranges here, but which one would be the best drawing experience? I have no real intention of using it for anything but that.
Shogmaster
Member
That's still lots of money for 5~15W dual core ULV-Y CPU when 15W quad core ULV machine are right around the corner. But then again, it's not far from S3 and iPad Pro 10.5 and far more capable.
I would wait if you can. Only a month away for quad cor 15W options. And you can get probably Lenovo Miix 5/510 with that CPU for less than $1000 US.
Hmm, quadcores, interesting! Might jump on this cashback thing for the SP4, but if not I will hold off until Christmas and watch for refreshes on the other brands.
I hadn't noticed until now the Surface 4 Pro m3's CPU is only 0.9GHz without boost, guessing that still's better than the Atom at 1.44GHz? I believe I saw some other Lenovo machine with that at a similar or slightly lower price point. (While I'm not looking to spend so much it'll likely be an issue, I'm also a bit wary of having to deal with throttle issues that I hear can happen on i5/i7 models.)
Bit worried about the IAF on the SP4 though.
Shogmaster
Member
Core Ms stay down in 1GHz (4~5 W) range only when there is no demand. They quickly boost to almost 3Ghz (15W) with load. And stay there until the cooling gives out, which is much sooner than it's Core i5/i7 counterparts. But for drawing and painting, and even Photoshop filters and other operations, the continuous load don't last too long so it's a good fit for the Core Ms. They basically act like Core i5/i7 with the brief load demands.
Atoms on the other hand stay in the 2~6W range and struggle from the get go.
As for IAF on SP4, you have 2 solutions: $70 for the Wacom Bamboo Ink Smart that lowers the IAF down to 1 gram, or $100 for the new Surface pen that lowers IAF to practically the same feel as Wacom BIS but with added tilt functionality.
Least you can do is look at single-thread performance with some benchmark. Don't judge a CPU purely on how many hertz.
There are many Atom SoCs. I'm going to guess you mean Intel Atom x5-Z8300.
Intel Core m3-6Y30 vs. Intel Atom x5-Z8300
1182/389 = 2.63839
Intel Core m3 0.9 GHz is 2.63839 times faster than Atom. Disparity is a bit more in multi-thread tasks.
Low GHz can help with power efficiency as in less power to do tasks and more battery life on the go.
Then you can consider physical attributes like heat dissipation (fanless vs. fan) + make other educated guesses about performance from there.
Shogmaster
Member
Unless they quickly change the SoC to Kaby-R (wouldnt bet on it), no.
Shogmaster
Member
Got the Nuvision Draw 10.
I left the thing charging at work, but I got it at end of the day so I only had time to try CSP on it.
The pack in pen is passable. About same expeience as SP3 pen on Surface 3 I suppose. The IAF is similar to SP3 pen and the pressure curve is too biased towards low pressure, blowing out as you press harder to get over that vast lower range.
Since its MPP, I simply switched to Bamboo Ink Smart. Pressure curve and IAF felt good as expected but It definitely feels anchored down by the Atom. With Wacom panel and chipset, much of the pen processing is off loaded from the CPU but these cheap MPP panel machines rely on the CPU for pen processing so the X5 Z8350 in this feels more sluggish than the Z3740 in my Asus Vivotab Note 8, which uses Wacom EMR panel.
Since this is MS store custom OS install, only balanced power mode is exposed it looks like. Tomorrow I'll try reg edit Performance mode on it to see how much that improves pen sluggishness.
I left the thing charging at work, but I got it at end of the day so I only had time to try CSP on it.
The pack in pen is passable. About same expeience as SP3 pen on Surface 3 I suppose. The IAF is similar to SP3 pen and the pressure curve is too biased towards low pressure, blowing out as you press harder to get over that vast lower range.
Since its MPP, I simply switched to Bamboo Ink Smart. Pressure curve and IAF felt good as expected but It definitely feels anchored down by the Atom. With Wacom panel and chipset, much of the pen processing is off loaded from the CPU but these cheap MPP panel machines rely on the CPU for pen processing so the X5 Z8350 in this feels more sluggish than the Z3740 in my Asus Vivotab Note 8, which uses Wacom EMR panel.
Since this is MS store custom OS install, only balanced power mode is exposed it looks like. Tomorrow I'll try reg edit Performance mode on it to see how much that improves pen sluggishness.
Shogmaster
Member
Played around with the Nuvision some more. The pack in pen is plenty usable, and you get the canvas size down to reasonable dimension (1700x2200), the lag is minimized at least in CSP.
So far, I'm gonna have to give it a BUY recommendation. As long as you keep the expectations in check, you should be happy with even the pack in pen.
So far, I'm gonna have to give it a BUY recommendation. As long as you keep the expectations in check, you should be happy with even the pack in pen.
Shogmaster
Member
I need to find my USB keyboard first, but I don't think its a good solution for this guy since the battery life ain't turning out great.
Shogmaster
Member
Oh.
Thanks for taking one for the team though! I'm still kinda tempted.
I was drawing the whole time so battery life in normal scenarios could be OK. I can see it going 6 hours with mixed usage. I got more like 3~4 with continuous drawing, but then again, I don't remember if it was fully charged first or not.
The only thing preventing me from giving it full endorsement is if it will last long term without fritzing out. The Atom and eMMC pokiness is all fully forgivable because of the crazy low price.
Shogmaster
Member
Shogmaster
Member
Shogmaster
Member
I was only interested in that because of the screen size. I'm a size whore. I find 15.6" of my Dell Inspiron 7568 too small now. 17.3" sounds about right for 1080p. 1080p is perfectly fine with the 22" screen of Cintiq 22HD I use at work.
Too bad it was just a 17.3" laptop that uses pen.
Too bad it was just a 17.3" laptop that uses pen.
does anyone here know how much of a boost the kaby lake refreshes are with those 2 extra cores?
just the thought of the miix 520 having 8 threads makes me salivate.
Honestly can't wait for 2-3 years from now (when I'm likely to replace my 510) to see where the 2-in-1 market goes wrt computing.
just the thought of the miix 520 having 8 threads makes me salivate.
Honestly can't wait for 2-3 years from now (when I'm likely to replace my 510) to see where the 2-in-1 market goes wrt computing.
Shogmaster
Member
For 2D apps, you probably won't notice the difference, but for 3D programs like Z-Brush, you will notice that 40% performance boost from 2 extra cores for sure.
Shogmaster
Member
Some art tablet silliness for you guys:
$250/90 NuVision Solo Draw 10 vs $3100/1500 VAIO Z Canvas - Battle of the least powerful N-Trig digitizer Windows 10 slate vs the most powerful N-Trig Win 10 slate!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JldIsKLwWE
$250/90 NuVision Solo Draw 10 vs $3100/1500 VAIO Z Canvas - Battle of the least powerful N-Trig digitizer Windows 10 slate vs the most powerful N-Trig Win 10 slate!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JldIsKLwWE
Something I'd neglected to ask: Since I don't know if I'd end up getting a USB keyboard if I get one of these things, what do you usually do for the most common keyboard shortcuts (e.g., ctrl+z) if you don't have a keyboard handy? Since the pens typically don't have an eraser end like the old style Wacom tablet ones do, I guess I'd have to just keep selecting the eraser tool when I need to get rid of a mistake?
Shogmaster
Member
I didn't use it in the video but I paired it with a cheap $5 BT "VR" controller and use Antimicro to map some keyfuctions like undo, eraser toggle, tab to hide and unhide UI, brush size up and down etc...
Check out my video on how to use Antimicro and a BT conttoller:
https://youtu.be/DTo7qHFG6uU
Here's my first video on using Antimicro with XBox One controller:
https://youtu.be/ZKVclH-fZh0
Yeah, I was going through a lot of benchmarks, unfortunately I mostly found those autogenerated pages. Thanks for the input! Seems like the step up to Core is worth it.
Just found a pretty good deal on the SP4 that puts it way below iPad Pro etc, so might jump on that if they have it still when I get there. I'm wondering though, how bad is the "wobbly diagonal" issue? I know they realized a new pan that is partially backwards-compatible with the SP4 but seems it doesn't fix this.
Shogmaster
Member
If you get diagonal jitter, you are making your strokes way too slowly. Learn to speed up your strokes which will not only eliminate the problem, but make your drawings better.
I've seen some artists on YouTube use Lazy Nezumi Pro when drawing in Photoshop.
Another is using drawing software that includes corrections like ArtRage or Sketchup.
Don't know if these software callouts are marketing ploys since ads are everywhere.
Shogmaster
Member
Pretty much every brush in Clip Studio Paint has stabilization settings you can tweek, from slight to crazy amount. No need for seoarate plug in like Lazy Nezumi.
I should add, the more stabilization you have, the more input lag.
At first i thought CSP was just shitty and slow, but then i turned stabilization down, and it became as responsive as Photoshop.
I don't know about Lazy Nezumi as i never used it, but i assume that also adds delay.
I've seen a couple of videos, and it looks terrible to use, tbh, unless you draw with a mouse or something.
Shogmaster
Member
CSP is way more responsive with much more nuanced pen input than Photoshop even with default settings. You must have had the stabilization cranked to over 15 initially.
Also CSP is much more efficient with low powered systems. Drawing with Photoshop on the NuVision would unusable molasses. CSP makes it a good experience. Also tried Krita on the NuVision for the freeeare crowd. Had no pressure. Even without the burden of pressure processing, it was a stilted mess.
Yeah, keep in mind that this was literally the first times i was dicking around with the program, and the stabilization was max or near max (i just didn't know yet).
But yeah, CSP is really light in comparison, one clear example, is the flip canvas feature in PS, it's absolute bullshit.
Instead of giving you an option to just mirror the visualization (like CSP and other programs) it literally flips the image, destroying your RAM.
As i said in previous posts, there are so many QoL things that CSP does better than Photoshop, it's not even funny.
Shogmaster
Member
I'm also beginning to realize that Nuvision is nigh useless without CSP. All free apps like Krita seems to cripple the thing. Sketchbook Pro run OK but not good. Dont even want to see how poorly Photoshop does.
So for those interested in Nuvision Solo Draw 10, use CSP on it or don't even bother.
Shogmaster
Member
CSP + Antimicro + BT input device >>> Procreate on tablet form factor.
So far I have only played around with 2200x1700 canvas with several layers on Nuvision and CSP. It does perfectly fine with that on Balanced power mode. But that same canvas size on Photoshop CC 2015 with Performance power mode is way too laggy to be useful.
Shogmaster
Member
3400x2200 canvas seems to be where things start getting a bit too much for CSP on NuVision. Upto 25 pixel brush is pretty responsive with a slightly modified Chalk brush (size expression turned on). 30 pixels wise and up, strokes start to skip once in a while at my sketching speed.
As an aside, that Chalk brush only starts to look good at 25 pixels and above IMO.
As an aside, that Chalk brush only starts to look good at 25 pixels and above IMO.
Very Berry Sunday
Member
I see a Surface Pro 4 8GB RAM 256GB SSD with keyboard and pen for $540
34 Battery Cycle
Is this worth it?
34 Battery Cycle
Is this worth it?
Shogmaster
Member
Battery doesn't seem as bad as I originally thought, but it's not great. 5~6 ish hours is what I'm seeing.
Storage wise, it's only 32GB and of that I think it had something like 11 or 12GB free. After CSP, Krita, PS CC 2015, and couple of other apps, now I'm down to 8.6GB free.
The space isn't the only thing though. The eMMC drive is very slow. Most of the waiting seems to be due to the eMMC drive loading shit. Even UI feels sluggish compared to my Vivotab Note 8, which has older Atom that scores about 33% less on Passmark. That's either due to the eMMC or the higher resolution screen IMO.
I did manage to enable the Performance power profile on there with a command prompt. But not sure it's worth it. PS CC still lags badly on it, and the modes eats enough power so that battery drains slowly while charging. To be fair, I was using my cell phone charger.
CSP works about the same on Balanced as on Performance, so I say skip Photoshop sketching (you can just use it for simple editing) and stick to CSP on this device. Clip Studio Paint or bust for NuVision Solo Draw 10 is my final verdict.
Battery wise that seems fine for me. 8.5gb after a few apps is a bit worrying though. Not sure how OneDrive works on tablets though. On PC it makes a local copy of all the files. Sounds like it would take up more than the entire size of storage.
The only drawing software I own is Clip Studio Paint, so that's not an issue on the drawing front. Not sure how the interface will work but good to hear performance seems decent for it.
You probably haven't tried it, but if you have, how does Adobe Acrobat Reader annotation work on it? My main reason to get this is to take annotation on pdfs and PowerPoint files.
Is it worth it for $200 (in Canadian, or $162 USD)? For some reason they have it priced at $300+ and it's currently on sale.
Shogmaster
Member
$162 is right on the verge of not being worth it since you might be able to get a better performing tablet used.
For some reason, Adobe Reader Touch keeps quitting right after launch. But Drawboard PDF seems to work fine. Marked up a 2 page PDF with it.
JetBlackPanda
Member
How do you guys feel about the 10.5 vs the 12.9 iPad Pro for drawing? Obviously the 12.9 is better real estate but how does the 10.5 feel to draw on?!
Shogmaster
Member
Feel should be exactly the same.
Trying to make the same decision (the cheap Surface Pro 4 m3 sold out, boo), I think the feel of the surface will be the same (slippery, unfortunately, I hear the Samsung S-pen has more texture to it) so I'm more concerned about the 10.5 being too small and the 12.9 too large for use as a digital sketchbook to carry around with me, even if mostly indoors. The 10.5 is still larger than the previous 9.7 so hopefully it's a nice middle-ground that won't be too cramped for freehand drawing. edit: Actually now that I'm looking at size comparisons the 12.9 doesn't look crazy big. Will have to visit a Mac store and see for myself.
Not crazy about iOS tbh but 11 looks like a small step up (as long as you don't need to connect it to a PC!), and a sketch tablet I appreciate if it just works without hiccups.
modoversus
Neo Member
I'm seriously considering the Asus Transformer Mini. Does anybody have any experience with it? I'm only interested in being able to run Photoshop, CSP and a really old copy of Poser 3. Not planing to use it for any serious work, just for hobby.
Is there any other Windows tablet that is on the same level or better for that price range?
Shogmaster
Member
Photoshop will need to be CS3 or older IMO to run with acceptable performance. My experience with same Atom SoC with Photoshop CC 2015 was not pretty.
You can get refurbs of Dell Surface Pro clone I mentioned earlier in this thread @ Woot for about $350. Its 6th gen Core M do will not have problem running Photoshop.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked