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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

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O

orion434

Member
Htown said:
This, right here, is the kind of assumption that got him shot in the first place.

Never crossed your mind that he or his family might live in the neighborhood?
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From listening to the radio this morning... none at all, they failed to mention that the father lived in the community. I should have read this posts OP.

I am unfamiliar with "Gated Communities" so in this particular community is the convience store within the gates?
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
next thing you know, you will find that the shooter apologists in this case will started defending the crazed rampage shooter in France with some excuse

murder is murder!

Skittles and Arizona Ice Tea are not weapons
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
NervousXtian said:
I don't want to forgive the cop for the Oscar Grant killing, but that situation was hairy as fuck the whole time. You had multiple people recording and yelling at the police, tons of drunk people, it was a tense situation on the BART which is can be a pretty messed up place to begin with. They hardly had it completely under control. Only the cop who shot him knows why he did it, if it was accident or on purpose. The evidence points to involuntary manslaughter, which is what he was convicted with.

Also, he was not being completely compliant.
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You want to play the stress card, but he didn't fire into the crowd. He put one in the head of guy that was already down and cuffed.

Involuntary manslaughter is complete bullshit.
 
L

LakeEarth

Member
Dash27 said:
So do we know this guy's story yet? He says he shot an unarmed kid in self defense. From what I've read the Criteria for that is his life needs to be in "imminent danger"? Have we heard how exactly the armed 250lb Zimmerman's life was in danger at all from a 150lb kid, on foot, who we know Zimmerman was following in a car?
Click to expand...

You can't claim self defense if you started the fight.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
rayner said:
From listening to the radio this morning... none at all, they failed to mention that the father lived in the community. I should have read this posts OP.

I am unfamiliar with "Gated Communities" so in this particular community is the convience store within the gates?
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Usually they're not.
 
G

Gordon Shumway

Banned
The story just sucks in so many ways. Reminded me of one (of a thousand) instances of my youth.

My family was the only black family living in our neighborhood (sw14st and 37th ave in Miami). I as walking home after playing ball and a Coral Gables cop felt the need to ask me what I was doing in the area...I responded "walking."

He tells me "Boy, stop playing funny. What are you doing here?" All I can think to myself is why? I tell him i'm walking home and would love to talk but i'm done, and started running..cause I was two houses from mine and was done with this.

He banged on my door and my mother opens up. Dude is barking at me asking me why I ran and he wasn't finished talking to me..I laughed and said "I know its shocking but guess what? I live here! Why do I have to explain myself?" Mother asked what I had done wrong and dude just turned and walked away.

I know the running was not the smartest move, but damn, to be stopped by a cop on the wrong side of 37th on his way to La Carreta for his free meal..nah, I get enough from the regular fools that bother me for not wearing my ID on the front/back of my shirt.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
echoshifting said:
We've heard it, sure, but it makes less sense and seems less likely with each passing day. I'm not even sure it's worth repeating at this point. He lied.
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Just to clarify, since we're on page twenty-something and people will keep asking: the official version of the story (provided by multiple police statements and corroborated vaguely by Zimmerman's father's letter) is that Zimmerman (from his car) asked Treyvon why he was in the neighborhood, got a non compliant response, got out of his car after losing track of him to look for directions at an intersection within the gated community, and that Treyvon (spooked by the earlier following attempt) jumped him, began beating him, and that Zimmerman fired to save himself from a beating.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Just to clarify, since we're on page twenty-something and people will keep asking: the official version of the story (provided by multiple police statements and corroborated vaguely by Zimmerman's father's letter) is that Zimmerman (from his car) asked Treyvon why he was in the neighborhood, got a non compliant response, got out of his car after losing track of him to look for directions at an intersection within the gated community, and that Treyvon (spooked by the earlier following attempt) jumped him, began beating him, and that Zimmerman fired to save himself from a beating.
Click to expand...

Thanks, you posted this in a much more objective and civil fashion than I would have managed ;p
 
C

CrazyDogg77

Member
B

BruiserBear

Banned
Htown said:
I still don't understand why there's a vocal contingent of GAF who is personally invested in proving that racism does not exist, and that unless the perpetrator of a crime explicitly states that they killed someone because of race, they could not possibly be racist.
Click to expand...

Of course racism exists. The problem is that denial of racism in one situation does not equal a denial of racism everywhere. Understanding that seems to be a problem for a fair number of people these days.


If there had been a spree of robberies in my neighborhood, it's quite possible I'd begin scrutinizing any dudes I see milling about the streets at night. And if I so happened to call the police while scrutinizing one of these guys, and I identified that they were black, that does not mean I was racist in doing so. He was just stating the facts as he saw them.

People are assuming that Zimmerman wouldn't have pursued this kid if he wasn't black, and there is simply no evidence that suggests that is an accurate assumption to be making.
 
ShinNL

ShinNL

Member
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Don't know if this is old or not, but the people who wrote the "stand your ground" law say that Zimmerman voided the ability to use it as a defense when he exited his vehicle after ignoring the police instructions:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...w-george-zimmerman-arrested-article-1.1048164
Click to expand...
"But but but but..."

This will probably shut down the last fools in this thread who still cling to the possibility that there might have been a form of justifiable use of fire arms. Of course there wasn't from the very start.
 
C

ced

Member
BruiserBear said:
People are presuming that Zimmerman wouldn't have pursued this kid if he wasn't black, and there is simply no evidence that suggests that is an accurate assumption to be making.
Click to expand...

Especially given his existing record with 911 calls while on his self proclaimed watch duty, he probably would have approached an old white lady walking around after dark.

I've finally finished reading all I can take about the official police reports, his and Trayvon's history and the 911 recordings and statements. It's pretty obvious Zimmerman unnecessarily and against the dispatchers advice followed and approached Trayvon. In my mind, even if at that point Trayvon jumped him (I really doubt this based on reports, even if he did, he was doing it in fear of his life) he is still guilty of manslaughter.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Don't know if this is old or not, but the people who wrote the "stand your ground" law say that Zimmerman voided the ability to use it as a defense when he exited his vehicle after ignoring the police instructions:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...w-george-zimmerman-arrested-article-1.1048164
Click to expand...

Perhaps that is what they intended, but that is not how the law is written. In fact, someone who was the initial aggressor can, in two circumstances, still use deadly force and claim self defense and be within the confines of the law. If this goes to trial I would imagine the defense's case will rely on this to some extent.
 
L

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
KHarvey16 said:
Perhaps that is what they intended, but that is not how the law is written. In fact, someone who was the initial aggressor can, in two circumstances, still use deadly force and claim self defense and be within the confines of the law. If this goes to trial I would imagine the defense's case will rely on this to some extent.
Click to expand...

are you even an attorney? Most attorneys wouldn't even make conclusion of law statements like this so casually.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
DY_nasty said:
You want to play the stress card, but he didn't fire into the crowd. He put one in the head of guy that was already down and cuffed.

Involuntary manslaughter is complete bullshit.
Click to expand...

He shot him in the back, not the head. Also, Oscar Grant wasn't cuffed at the time of the shooting.

I don't want to get in some argument trying to defend the police in the Grant case, because they fucked up, but please, stick to the facts of the case.
 
O

Onemic

Member
BruiserBear said:
Of course racism exists. The problem is that denial of racism in one situation does not equal a denial of racism everywhere. Understanding that seems to be a problem for a fair number of people these days.


If there had been a spree of robberies in my neighborhood, it's quite possible I'd begin scrutinizing any dudes I see milling about the streets at night. And if I so happened to call the police while scrutinizing one of these guys, and I identified that they were black, that does not mean I was racist in doing so. He was just stating the facts as he saw them.

People are assuming that Zimmerman wouldn't have pursued this kid if he wasn't black, and there is simply no evidence that suggests that is an accurate assumption to be making.
Click to expand...

Of course it doesn't mean that, but when you have a situation where the evidence presented is so damning and the history of inequality blacks receive in places like Florida especially, it's hard to just sweep this under the rug as not being at least racially motivated in terms of his suspicions. The ones that are saying that he would have done this regardless, were the same ones who initially said that zimmerman probably did it justifiably and are leaving any possibility of racial profiling out the door as he didn't say "nigger". You don't have to say a racial epithet(and judging by the 911 call he actually may have) to do something based on negative racial stereotypes.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
KHarvey16 said:
Perhaps that is what they intended, but that is not how the law is written. In fact, someone who was the initial aggressor can, in two circumstances, still use deadly force and claim self defense and be within the confines of the law. If this goes to trial I would imagine the defense's case will rely on this to some extent.
Click to expand...

Going to have to agree with Harvey on this one...similar to what I said about that yesterday. If it is not meant to protect this sort of person then it is horribly, horribly written. The guys who wrote the law are just beginning to shore up a defense for the inevitable assault on the law and criticism of the language they used.

levious said:
are you even an attorney? Most attorneys wouldn't even make conclusion of law statements like this so casually.
Click to expand...

There were attorneys/law analysts on many websites yesterday saying the same thing, including CNN.

It is very difficult to predict how this is going to turn out.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
onemic said:
Of course it doesn't mean that, but when you have a situation where the evidence presented is so damning and the history of inequality blacks receive in places like Florida especially, it's hard to just sweep this under the rug as not being at least racially motivated in terms of his suspicions. The ones that are saying that he would have done this regardless, were the same ones who initially said that zimmerman probably did it justifiably and are leaving any possibility of racial profiling out the door as he didn't say "nigger". You don't have to say a racial epithet(and judging by the 911 call he actually may have) to do something based on negative racial stereotypes.
Click to expand...

I think he's a paranoid power-wielding lunatic who would have done the same thing to any one else with all other circumstances being equal.
 
D

Dash27

Member
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Just to clarify, since we're on page twenty-something and people will keep asking: the official version of the story (provided by multiple police statements and corroborated vaguely by Zimmerman's father's letter) is that Zimmerman (from his car) asked Treyvon why he was in the neighborhood, got a non compliant response, got out of his car after losing track of him to look for directions at an intersection within the gated community, and that Treyvon (spooked by the earlier following attempt) jumped him, began beating him, and that Zimmerman fired to save himself from a beating.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

got out of his car after losing track of him to look for directions at an intersection within the gated community
Click to expand...

Seems legit...

Is that seriously the story? I'm not even sure what that means, look for directions. Like a billboard with a star on it saying "YOU ARE HERE"? It actually makes sense, looking at the guy I would say that's the best he can come up with.

Anyway, this was probably already discussed for pages so, just had to get that out of my system.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Dash27 said:
Is that seriously the story? I'm not even sure what that means, look for directions. Like a billboard with a star on it saying "YOU ARE HERE"? It actually makes sense, looking at the guy I would say that's the best he can come up with.
Click to expand...

Zimmerman claims the rain and darkness made it too difficult to see the street signs, and he was trying to report his location to the police.
 
C

ced

Member
Dash27 said:
Thanks.



Seems legit...

Is that seriously the story? I'm not even sure what that means, look for directions. Like a billboard with a star on it saying "YOU ARE HERE"? It actually makes sense, looking at the guy I would say that's the best he can come up with.

Anyway, this was probably already discussed for pages so, just had to get that out of my system.
Click to expand...

It would be somewhat legit if we already did not know he possessed a flashlight based on witness reports. He would have been able to see the roadsigns from his vehicle with a flashlight.

Edit:

I guess a flashlight would not help with rain obscuring your view.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
levious said:
are you even an attorney? Most attorneys wouldn't even make conclusion of law statements like this so casually.
Click to expand...

Not an attorney, but the law in question is very short and straight forward. Unfortunately I can't link it right now but look up Florida Statutes chapter 776, justifiable use of force.
 
J

Jim E. Rossler

Banned
echoshifting said:
Zimmerman claims the rain and darkness made it too difficult to see the street signs, and he was trying to report his location to the police.
Click to expand...

and then HE WAS COMING RIGHT FOR ME!
103jimboshootsbear.jpg




The 2011 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

View Entire Chapter
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

He's voided his right to use force by violating #2a+b, he had a requirement to try and flee, and you can hear on the tapes he didn't do b

In NC there is no a or b, if you provoke it your rights go right out the window for deadly force; you provoke a boxer into a fight and he starts whaling head shots on you, and you cant pull out your gun, no matter how imminent your death is. I would not be against a and b being amended out.
 
M

MightyHealthy

Banned
Dash27 said:
Thanks.



Seems legit...

Is that seriously the story? I'm not even sure what that means, look for directions. Like a billboard with a star on it saying "YOU ARE HERE"? It actually makes sense, looking at the guy I would say that's the best he can come up with.

Anyway, this was probably already discussed for pages so, just had to get that out of my system.
Click to expand...
The even funnier (or sadder) aspect is that the neighborhood watch captain suddenly forgot his own neighborhood.

He's been there for at least a year plus, watching it vigilantly, but he doesn't even know the streets?
 
T

thefro

Member
MightyHealthy said:
The even funnier (or sadder) aspect is that the neighborhood watch captain suddenly forgot his own neighborhood.

He's been there for at least a year plus, watching it vigilantly, but he doesn't even know the streets?
Click to expand...

Yep, that sounds like total BS to me, even at night in the rain. There's other landmarks to use if you're familiar with the area.

Heck after delivering pizza for 3 months I knew every street within a 5 mile radius of the shop like the back of my hand.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Dash27 said:
Thanks.



Seems legit...

Is that seriously the story? I'm not even sure what that means, look for directions. Like a billboard with a star on it saying "YOU ARE HERE"? It actually makes sense, looking at the guy I would say that's the best he can come up with.

Anyway, this was probably already discussed for pages so, just had to get that out of my system.
Click to expand...
I left one part out. While being beaten, Zimmerman was overheard by more than one witness begging for his life before he was forced to put Martin down. Officially.
 
O

Onemic

Member
Zoe said:
I think he's a paranoid power-wielding lunatic who would have done the same thing to any one else with all other circumstances being equal.
Click to expand...

Which is fine, I mainly have a a problem with those that say it can't be influenced by race simply because he didn't call him a nigger or some other racial epithet. It's more of a general problem than one specific with this thread.
 
B

BruiserBear

Banned
onemic said:
Which is fine, I mainly have a a problem with those that say it can't be influenced by race simply because he didn't call him a nigger or some other racial epithet. It's more of a general problem than one specific with this thread.
Click to expand...

My general problem is with the suggestion that race is a factor in a case when there is no evidence to suggest it is.

The fact that Zimmerman identified this young man on the 911 call as a "black teenager" does not quality as racism. He just described what he was seeing, and then he went about acting like an idiot and ended up shooting the kid.


George Zimmerman is a fucking moron. I believe he should, and will, spend some years in jail for what he did. I am only questioning the racism angle, which is being so heavily pushed by some people, with basically nothing to back it up.
 
K

KodMoS

Banned
BruiserBear said:
The fact that Zimmerman identified this young man on the 911 call as a "black teenager" does not quality as racism. He just described what he was seeing, and then he went about acting like an idiot and ended up shooting the kid.
Click to expand...

People believe this may be an act of racism because Zimmerman said he was suspicious. Only reason he may have been suspicious is because it was reported before that recent break ins in that community were committed by African Americans. It appears that this may have been an act of racial profiling.
 
I

Ignis Fatuus

Banned
BruiserBear said:
My general problem is with the suggestion that race is a factor in a case when there is no evidence to suggest it is.
Click to expand...

You're never going to absolutely prove racist motivation without a smoking gun or an outright admission, but there are enough red flags here that I think anyone who believes that race was not a factor is naive.

Whether it's Trayvon Martin or Yoshihiro Hattori, being other makes you an instant target of suspicion.
 
B

BruiserBear

Banned
KodMoS said:
People believe this may be an act of racism because Zimmerman said he was suspicious. Only reason he may have been suspicious is because it was reported before that recent break ins in that community were committed by African Americans. It appears that this may have been an act of racial profiling.
Click to expand...

So I guess the only alternative is to ignore the information at hand, just to be as sure as possible that you're not racial profiling?

Ignis Fatuus said:
You're never going to absolutely prove racist motivation without a smoking gun or an outright admission, but there are enough red flags here that I think anyone who believes that race was not a factor is naive.

Whether it's Trayvon Martin or Yoshihiro Hattori, being other makes you an instant target of suspicion.
Click to expand...



So by red flags you mean, he identified the kid as being black?


Ignis Fatuus said:
Whether it's Trayvon Martin or Yoshihiro Hattori, being other makes you an instant target of suspicion.
Click to expand...

I'm sure a white guy has never been shot entering someone's home unexpectedly. Never.
 
I

Ignis Fatuus

Banned
BruiserBear said:
So by red flags you mean, he identified the kid as being black?
Click to expand...

"He look like he's on drugs or something"
"These people always get away with it"

Have you listened to the call?

BruiserBear said:
Also, I'm sure a white guy has never been shot entering someone's home unexpectedly. Never.
Click to expand...
Who unexpectedly entered someone's home?

Better question, how many white kids get shot after knocking on a door and then walking away in the deep south?
 
S

sangreal

Member
BruiserBear said:
My general problem is with the suggestion that race is a factor in a case when there is no evidence to suggest it is.

The fact that Zimmerman identified this young man on the 911 call as a "black teenager" does not quality as racism. He just described what he was seeing, and then he went about acting like an idiot and ended up shooting the kid.


George Zimmerman is a fucking moron. I believe he should, and will, spend some years in jail for what he did. I am only questioning the racism angle, which is being so heavily pushed by some people, with basically nothing to back it up.
Click to expand...

Do you think it is normal to call the police and stalk somebody because they are wearing a hoodie in the rain? Why do you think he was suspicious?
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
BruiserBear said:
My general problem is with the suggestion that race is a factor in a case when there is no evidence to suggest it is.

The fact that Zimmerman identified this young man on the 911 call as a "black teenager" does not quality as racism. He just described what he was seeing, and then he went about acting like an idiot and ended up shooting the kid.


George Zimmerman is a fucking moron. I believe he should, and will, spend some years in jail for what he did. I am only questioning the racism angle, which is being so heavily pushed by some people, with basically nothing to back it up.
Click to expand...

you mean the 911 call where Zimmerman called him a 'coon?
 
Bumblebeetuna

Bumblebeetuna

Member
Megidolaon said:
But isn't it possible that he would have been suspicious if Trayvon had been any race? I'm still not convinced that he was suspicious only because he was black. More that he was a young guy walking around alone at night during a period when there have been a lot of burglaries. Still presumptuous and wrong, but I still don't see any clear evidence of racism. Trayvon could have been Hispanic or white and the same thing could have happened.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman was right, but I don't think that the media fanning the race flames is helping the situation.
Click to expand...

Yeah coverage has taken a racism turn that is hard to watch. Seems to me Zimmerman would have done what he did to someone of any race. Could have been a white, Latino, Asian, whatever kid looking suspicious (to him) and it would have been on. He'd apparently called police almost 50 times in a short time before this incident. I have a hard time believing race is the motivating factor here. Dude is just an overzealous douche.

People are really taking that "fucking ____" quote and running. Has a media outlet or anyone else really cleaned that audio up and tried to find out exactly what he says yet? Seemed clear to me he says punks. If he said coon then obviously race was the main factor here.
 
C

CrazyDogg77

Member
BruiserBear said:
So I guess the only alternative is to ignore the information at hand, just to be as sure as possible that you're not racial profiling?





So by red flags you mean, he identified the kid as being black?




I'm sure a white guy has never been shot entering someone's home unexpectedly. Never.
Click to expand...

What?
 
B

BruiserBear

Banned
Mortrialus said:
And likely called him a "fucking coon."
Click to expand...

I wasn't sure after hearing that call, and I listened to that part carefully.

Ignis Fatuus said:
"He look like he's on drugs or something"
"These people always get away with it"

Have you listened to the call?


Who unexpectedly entered someone's home?

Better question, how many white kid get shot after knocking on a door and then walking away in the deep south?
Click to expand...

Yes, I've listened to the call twice now. Yes, Zimmerman was making lots of stupid assumptions based on how the kid was behaving, and he ultimately did something incredibly dumb. But we have no way of knowing it was race based.

In regards to the 1992 link, one dumbass old man has nothing to do with this case in 2012.


sangreal said:
Do you think it is normal to call the police and stalk somebody because they are wearing a hoodie in the rain? Why do you think he was suspicious?
Click to expand...

No, I do not think it was normal behavior. But then again, I don't live in an areas where crime is particularly common, so I'm not generally on the lookout for people who are up to no good. I think he was suspicious because he was on high alert due to the recent crime spike. He saw a young kid standing there in the rain, and his fears got the best of him, and he did something really stupid.

But, none of that means that his behavior was motivated by race. We have no way of knowing if he had seen a white kid acting the exact same way, how he would have reacted.
 
I

Ignis Fatuus

Banned
BruiserBear said:
In regards to the 1992 link, one dumbass old man has nothing to do with this case in 2012.
Click to expand...

The fact that you're unwilling to acknowledge that the cases were unlikely to happen to a white kid shows that not enough has changed in two decades if you ask me.

Dreams-Visions said:
I think he was inarticulately, sarcastically trying to say that if you enter someone's home, you can get shot irrespective of race (or gender, presumably). That in that particular case, being "the other" had nothing to do with it at all.
Click to expand...

Except no one entered anyone's house in that case. The dude was murdered for knocking on a door and walking away when there was no reply. And the killer was acquitted, incidentally. I have no great hope that justice will be done for Trayvon either.
 
C

CrazyDogg77

Member
Dreams-Visions said:
I think he was inarticulately, sarcastically trying to say that if you enter someone's home, you can get shot irrespective of race (or gender, presumably). That in that particular case, being "the other" had nothing to do with it at all.
Click to expand...

Yeah but he pulled out the dumbest response possible.
 
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