I do not know but it will be great for people like me that only play on monitors.
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PS4 PRO: for best IQ (Native 4k + HDR + 60 HZ + 4:4:4) 2160p-YUV420 or 2160p-RGB?
- Thread starter PLASTICA-MAN
- Start date
I do not know but it will be great for people like me that only play on monitors.
Highly doubt that. Most TV's don't have display port inputs. Scorpio is clearly designed for the living room and 4K TV's. I guess they hope that HDMI gets an upgrade when Scorpio releases.
SonicAaron
Member
I'd like to thank Gaf for another mind boggling thread where none of us now know the best setting for PS4 Pro lol
I think the only HDMI upgrade that would be ready for Scorpio launch is HDMI 2.1 that AFAIK just adds dynamic HDR metadata against 2.0. Buy maybe there is a bandwidth increase as well... now I am really curious about this to be honest.
just use auto it should handle this shit for you
D1renegade
Member
This.. We've become PC now.
You have a 4k tv with HDR and want HDR: yuv420
You have a 4k tv without HDR or don't need HDR: rgb444 (if it is supported by your display device)
This thread again shows why DisplayPort is superior. TV vendors need to get on the train.
DisplayPort 1.4 adds support for Display Stream Compression 1.2 (DSC), Forward Error Correction, HDR10 extension defined in CTA-861.3, the Rec. 2020 color space, and extends the maximum number of inline audio channels to 32.
DSC is a "visually lossless" encoding technique with up to 3:1 compression ratio. Using DSC with HBR3 transmission rates, DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680×4320) at 60 Hz with 10-bit color and HDR, or 4K UHD (3840×2160) at 120 Hz with 10-bit color and HDR. 4K at 60 Hz with 10-bit color and HDR can be achieved without the need for DSC. On displays which do not support DSC, the maximum limits are unchanged from DisplayPort 1.3 (4K 120 Hz, 5K 60 Hz, 8K 30 Hz).
DisplayPort 1.4 adds support for Display Stream Compression 1.2 (DSC), Forward Error Correction, HDR10 extension defined in CTA-861.3, the Rec. 2020 color space, and extends the maximum number of inline audio channels to 32.
DSC is a "visually lossless" encoding technique with up to 3:1 compression ratio. Using DSC with HBR3 transmission rates, DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680×4320) at 60 Hz with 10-bit color and HDR, or 4K UHD (3840×2160) at 120 Hz with 10-bit color and HDR. 4K at 60 Hz with 10-bit color and HDR can be achieved without the need for DSC. On displays which do not support DSC, the maximum limits are unchanged from DisplayPort 1.3 (4K 120 Hz, 5K 60 Hz, 8K 30 Hz).
FalsettoVibe
Member
What?
Automatic.
DangerMouse
Member
If you only play on monitors then you won't be getting HDR anyway as no monitor (at least consumer) supports HDR so far, only 4K TVs.
No change will help the Scorpio with this as most TVs only do HDMI not DisplayPort.
Yeah, hopefully, as this is what I expect too.
It's also worth noting that UHD/4K blu-ray looks really good at 4:2:0 (the UHD Blu-Ray spec uses 4:2:0) so this stuff will still look fantastic.
But I...I mean Bob doesn't trust the console's auto setting especially given how much it seems to bork things up with the black level set to automatic...
Does the game support HDR? YUV420. If not, RGB.
The hope is that the Automatic setting will recognize this and flip the switch for you which we need testing to find out.
While I certainly agree as I don't need all the extra protocols like CEC, ARC and HEC, I guess it has its place in home cinema setups which focus on media consumption.
No HDR monitors at this moment, they are supposed to be around the corner and before the Scorpio arrives is a given I guess. This is why just for the PS4 pro I was wondering if I should pick today a 4k monitor and do not wait more as the forced 4:2:0 with HDR is not what I want.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Normal people only understand three words from that title: "for", "best" and "native".
This is as complicated as PC gaming, so I guess thats what Sony meant by competing with PCs with the Pro.
This is as complicated as PC gaming, so I guess thats what Sony meant by competing with PCs with the Pro.
Crazymoogle
Member
Manufacturers won't do it not just because it lacks those extra features, but also because it requires paying the higher DisplayPort per unit fee. It may be the cost of doing business on PC but as there's no demand for home theatre, the manufacturers would rather just wait on new HDMI specs.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Well. We don't know about all games and whether they support HDR or not. Still, stays confusing especially for games that run in native 4K @ 60 FPS + HDR like NBA 2K17: we can't get the best IQ for them with neither YUV 420 nor RGB.
In the case of the above what would give you the best picture should you have to choose between either RGB or YUV 420 (and I don't mean holistically speaking but rather in this one isolated example with the defined parameters)???
From what i got, if you have a good television with a good hdr, you go with hdr and yuv, if you don't have hdr or is it bad in your tv go with rgb, someone correct me if i'm wrong
Fair enough, I wasn't aware it had higher fees.
You mean the newer option that Sony should add on PS4 Pro Plus when newer TVs are out
The color space stays the same. Only the chroma is compressed to 4:2:0. As an example, HD and UHD Blurays are also 4:2:0 and look fantastic.
Maybe this helps a bit to visualize:
(White = luma, gray = chroma)
Yes... at 8bit color depth. The "issue" is that RGB/4:4:4 is not possible at 10bit @ 4K60 currently.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
The newer option that Sony should add when newer TVs that allow all features to be enabled are out. /jk
That is what I was thinking too and you posted it
I think the problem is not the reduced color space but the need to interpolate colors from adjacent pixels. I believe this image makes the reduction in quality very evident:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling#/media/File:Colorcomp.jpg
I would take non HDR RGB to HDR 4:2:0 any day.
This pretty much sums it up folks.
You could also put the PS4 into automatic and it will do the switching for you.
Display port does not currently support HDR.
The limitation is the 18 Gbps BW with HDMI 2.0, which is the highest specified bandwidth available today. We would need higher bandwidth display and cable and possibly port as well than what HDMI 2.0 specifies today.
Its safe to go back in the water.
The color space is Rec2020 which is much larger than Rec709. The color compression is 420, same thing thats been in blu-rays and UHD players for years, still looks great!
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Fair enough, I wasn't aware it had higher fees.
You mean the newer option that Sony should add on PS4 Pro Plus when newer TVs are out
PS4 S PRO.
staticneuron
Member
Considering it doesn't look like there are many 4K 60FPS games for the PS4pro (except that top down racer, iirc) this seems like a moot issue. Chances are AAA titles will have things running at 1080p60FPS or 4K30FPS. Choosing the 4KRGB options means you are safe in most cases.
If you have an LG TV with "HDMI Ultra HD Deep Colour", 4K @ 60Hz using RGB supports 4:4:4.
http://www.lg.com/uk/support/product-help/CT00008334-1437128590776-others
I assume this is because the TV does some work to process the pixels and prevent subsampling? Either way im pleased
*Edit: Oh wait, not HDR10 though. Looks to be limited to 4:2:2 from that table. Jesus this is confusing
http://www.lg.com/uk/support/product-help/CT00008334-1437128590776-others
I assume this is because the TV does some work to process the pixels and prevent subsampling? Either way im pleased
*Edit: Oh wait, not HDR10 though. Looks to be limited to 4:2:2 from that table. Jesus this is confusing
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
But you won't be able to enjoy HDR10 in that mode. That is all the problematic here.
I think you'd be hard pressed to notice the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 at regular viewing distance on a 4K panel. The downgrade in IQ is being overstated a tad bit.
Not saying the improvement isn't there, but remember those pictures are zoomed in. 4k blu-ray is yuv420, I wouldn't really call that an imperfect picture. HDR will have a far more pronounced effect than rgb444.
For the ProSPS4 S PRO.
DangerMouse
Member
That's your choice, but if you care about HDR it's worth it. And content (like 4K HDR blu-ray) is clearly mastered this with whole thing this in mind.
On my TV (Samsung KU6300) only HDMI port 1 supports 4K60 @4:4:4, the other 2 support 4K60@4:2:0. It's not a Full HDR screen either unfortunately, not wide color gamut.
My PC is plugged in to HDMI 1, should I be plugging my PS4 Pro in to port 1 as well or will Port 2 suffice.
edit - here's the manual for it actually (top table relates to HDMI 2 and 3, bottom is HDMI 1)
My PC is plugged in to HDMI 1, should I be plugging my PS4 Pro in to port 1 as well or will Port 2 suffice.
edit - here's the manual for it actually (top table relates to HDMI 2 and 3, bottom is HDMI 1)
You definitely want to have your Pro plugged in to the other ports. You will immediately notice the compression with PC desktop use and games just by looking at text, found that out the hard way while toying around with the settings on my TV.
I'm still thinking that this is not as huge of an issue for consoles. Unfortunately I have no hard facts to back this up, only several posts on AV enthusiast boards. But I guess Digital Foundry or somebody else will enlighten us soon enough.
What? DisplayPort is royalty-free, you know that?
DisplayPort is clearly the superior thechnology, yet HDMI is favourized. My TV supports it and I use it for my PC.
staticneuron
Member
That is not true. Look at chart again.
Yes I believe so. At 60fps anyway.
As you can see, you can have 8bit RGB at 4k60, or 8 bit 4:4:4, but at 10 bit RGB and 4:4:4 are limited to 4k30, above that you only have 4:2:0.
So the TV settings you posted show max for HDTV. The output of PS4pro can be fine if content is 30 FPS. It seems as if the issue occurs when trying games out at a higher bandwidth. I have an LGB6 and it changes mode depending on content loaded even if it is from the same device.
EDIT: NVM I see you are talking about 10bit
Yeah I wasn't thinking about using another port for my PC, just switching between the two in HDMI port 1. Will likely just plug the Pro in to 1 and then 2 and test things out.
Samsung has 3 HDR monitors that come out in DEC https://www.overclock3d.net/news/gpu_displays/samsung_launches_three_100hz_hdr_freesync_displays/1
You can pre order from Samsung http://www.samsung.com/us/computing/monitors/curved/34--cf791-wqhd-monitor-lc34f791wqnxza/#specs
4k HDR bluray specs are set @ 4:2:0 @ 10 bits. 4:4:4 @ 8 bit is what PC uses interesting Ps4 pro uses too. I would just set to automatic .
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Yes I know that you can get HDR10 in 4K@30FPS but read my previous posts. The problematic is when games that are Native 4K@60FPS + HDR like NBA2K17, you have to sacrifice something in order to get one feature and you can't enjoy them to the full extent which is really grievous for everyone who invested hard in a high end 4K TV.
HDMI is the more ubiquitous standard on TVs probably because of the royalties. It's in the interests of the developing coalition (which includes Sony and Panasonic among others) to keep the standard going.
Displayport isn't completely royalty free, it depends on the implementation but it's theoretically royalty free being implemented by VESA.
I feel like I've read about those before but completly forgot again lol. Kinda nice. Though it's a pity the 21:9 is only 100Hz despite DP1.3. Probably a panel limitation.
but it does? DP 1.4 is on every newish GPU out there.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Is there any chance that next year TVs will support 4K@60 + HDR 10 bits in RGB 4:4:4?
Or should we wait a little longer? Let alone TVs with 10000 nits in HDR which GT Sport supports (I wonder how could GT Sport support such futuristic TVs while we are still stuck with such limited options in the PS4 PRO).
Or should we wait a little longer? Let alone TVs with 10000 nits in HDR which GT Sport supports (I wonder how could GT Sport support such futuristic TVs while we are still stuck with such limited options in the PS4 PRO).
SonicAaron
Member
But automatic failed us mostly on RGB full or limited so why should we trust it with this?
I think I'm gonna go RGB as most games as I'm happy with 30fps and therefore get 4K and HDR .. I think.
I think I'm gonna go RGB as most games as I'm happy with 30fps and therefore get 4K and HDR .. I think.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it does not matter if the game renders at 30, 20 or 60 fps, the output is always 60Hz and is what matters, the internal framerate is not relevant to this limitation/compression. Therefore all games have this sacrifice with HDR 4k.
Well, this is very arguable.
I think it is not fair to measure the loss in IQ that 4:2:0 yields by using a bluray movie as reference. A perfect anti aliased and infinitely supersampled image by nature such as a movie does not show the same artifacts when chroma subsampled at 4:2:0 than a game that almost always will come from an upscaled sub 4K resolution. Jaggies and artifacts are much more prominent to show imperfections and visual noise when compressed at 4:2:0 than a movie, by far... at least in my opinion