Dr Zhivago
Member
I don't own one, but the AVForums review says 112cm.
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Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
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I don't own one, but the AVForums review says 112cm.
DJ Lushious
Member
The M-Series is inferior to the KS8000 in that it is an 8-bit panel. However, it is FALD (I think 64 zones) whereas KS8000 is edge-lit.
If you're going to be spending KS8000 money, then you should be looking at the Vizio P-Series. Those are in the same tier of tech/feature set and their differences amount to Samsung's Edge-Lit + lower input lag + higher NITS vs Vizio's 126 FALD zones + slightly higher input lag + Dolby Vision.
Everyone has their own opinion on the matter, but my personal take is I would never spend that kind of money on an edge-lit set. In addition, the P-Series has Dobly Vision support, making it more future-proof than the Samsung. Which is why I went with the P-Series.
Setzer
Member
Appreciate your input!
If I decide on the KS8000 I'll most likely order it direct through Samsung as I can take advantage of an offer that will let me get it for $1379. Plus I could get another 5% off if I use my Discover card. It's a pretty nice deal and I really wasn't on planning on spending more than $1500 to begin with since the plan is to go to OLED in a couple years when prices come down and there are more options than just LG.
Ideally I would have liked to get my TV from Costco and that's why I considered the Vizio. Extra year warranty and 90-day return are really nice. My only concern ordering direct from Samsung is dead pixels.
The_Spaniard
Netmarble
I have 3D monitors and occasionally play 3D Vision games on my PC. If I hooked up my desktop to my new C6 when I get it, would there be any trouble playing 3D Vision supported PC games on it considering it's a 3D TV?
Insane Metal
Member
Gatdamn. Delicious.
Thank you!
Later Alligator
Member
this is a fair assessment, but given this is a gaming forum it should be mentioned that currently the vizio p series does not work with hdr gaming on the xbox one (does it work on ps4/pc?)
they've already said they are looking into it and will patch it, but currently that patch does not exist. so anyone on the fence may want to hold off for a few weeks until that arrives, if they can
DJ Lushious
Member
You are correct. Xbox One S HDR is broken on the P-Series. Its fix is coming in the next firmware update, which should drop sometime in November. Of course, it'll be out when it's out.
PS4 HDR is working without issue. I can't speak for PC. From what I understand, the Xbox One S is outputting 4:2:0 with HDR. It's an unconventional way of doing it, but you won't hear me excusing Vizio.
Okay so I went to the Sony Centre in Nunnawadding and spent about 2 hours in front of the Z9D. If anyone else lives in Melbourne and is interested in doing the same, give them a call, and ask to speak to Ben, he was awesome, and let me bring an XBOX One S and try out anything I wanted. He also gave me the remote and let me change any settings on the TV.
First of all before I plugged in the One S, the demo footage was playing and I was instantly very impressed. Front on I couldn't see any blooming, and I got close to the screen, I was pretty much pressing my nose against it, and the contrast between the brightest highlights and the black right next to it was incredible and I couldn't spot any halo-ing.
All that changes when you go off angle though, and the weaknesses of LCD are immediately apparent. You can definitely see blooming at an angle, and that might be a dealbreaker for some, in my case, I'm never going to be anywhere but directly in front, so it's not an issue for me personally.
Anyway, he came over and we plugged the XBOX in, and spent quite a while trying to set it up properly. We kept getting a whole bunch of crosses on the 4K compatibility screen on the XB1. And playing anything with HDR turned on just looked shit, way over saturated and heavy contrast.
After a while we figured out that the HDMI port had to be set to enhanced mode (bolded in case anyone else wants to go try it out, HDR will not work unless this is done), then we got 100% green ticks on the 4K compatibility scene. Before we got this stuff sorted out that, I was already impressed with the set. Gears of War and Forza both looked very good, and I was very happy with the input lag. But when we finally got HDR working, and we booted up Forza and Gears, holy smokes... it was a game changer. In the opening scenes of Gears you're storming a beach like location, and there is this intense blue lightning, which is just incredible on the Z9D. Forza is a similar story, the colours and HDR were incredible, the sky looked amazing, and the highlights of the sun reflecting off the cars and puddles looked insane.
Switching from HDR on to HDR off was like going from graded footage to LOG footage. It's amazing how what was originally impressive (the TV running in standard) quickly becomes shit compared to HDR, and also how quickly your eyes adjust to HDR and accept it as standard.
Next up I tested out Mad Max on 4K Blu Ray (sadly the only one I own), but similar results here. Black performance is outstanding, the TV looks like it's turned off during black scenes, and even with bright objects against a black background like the opening titles held up extremely well (I even went to the end credits, and was very impressed with how well it did pure white against pure black, I couldn't see any halo-ing on axis).
Things that impressed me in Mad Max were again the specular highlights, HDR really brings the picture alive, fire looks amazing, the sun reflecting off the steering wheel right before they enter the storm looked awesome, and then when they entered the storm the lightning was just crazy, the Z9D can get seriously bright, and it helps for HDR heaps.
At that stage I felt like I'd seen enough, and then went to The Good Guys to check out the OLEDs.
They didn't have the G6 on display unfortunately, just the E6, but I've been told the only difference is the soundbar, so it should more or less be the same.
The guys there also let me hook up the XB1 S, and try stuff out. Initially we had the same issues as the Sony, and the HDMI port had to be set to Enhanced Colour something, and the TV restarted itself, then we got all green ticks, and were ready to go.
Right off the bat, the OLED impresses with it's pure blacks, and glossier (than the Z9D) screen.
I started with Mad Max, and initially I wasn't happy as I could see motion artefacts all over the place, and there was a slight amount of SOE (very subtle mind you). Specifically in scenes with the cars that have the sticks sticking out of them (see below) when they swayed from side to side there was shocking artefacting.
So I asked the guys if I could muck around with the settings, and they were very happy to let me do so, so I turned off all TruMotion, Noise Reduction etc settings, and the image cleaned up remarkably, but once I did that, it introduced unbelievable judder in the image. Very evident in the first scene Furiosa is driving away, if you look at the clouds in the sky as they drive by and the camera pans across it was like the video was stuttering.
I tried mucking around with the settings a bit more, but any motion enhancement I turned on would bring back the SOE / motion artefacts. The guy in the store tried doing something with the OLED which turned it off (screen refresh or cycle) but it didn't fix anything. So I'm not 100% sure what the best settings are for it, it was my first time mucking around with an OLED. If anyone who has one has optimal settings to remove SOE without introducing judder let me know and I'll go back and try again.
Anyway, I wasn't satisfied with Mad Max, so then I tried Forza Horizon, and while it looked nice, and the blacks were very deep, it didn't have quite the intensity or impact of the Z9D, and I think that comes down to the peak brightness of the sets. Keep in mind, when I was looking at the Z9D, it didn't look too bright, or strain my eyes, it was only small parts of the scene that would go super bright, and if anything it just looked more true to life.
I noticed more reflections on the OLED, but I put that down to store conditions and the glossier screen, not really an issue.
Anyway I think that about covers it, sorry for the gigantic post, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask. As for what I'll be going with in December, after spending a good amount of time with both, it's the Z9D hands down, even if it was more expensive, I'd get it over the OLED. The motion issues I experienced with the OLED instantly cancel it out as I couldn't deal with that, despite the amazing quality of the screen and black levels. The Z9D simply had more of a wow factor also, and the HDR presentation was much more impactful.
There are no 24p motion issues on the OLED. You certainly don't need to enable TruMotion. Perhaps the player wasn't set to output 24p or RealCinema wasn't enabled. You need RealCinema enabled on the TV for it to show 24p natively, and if you turned everything off, that probably included RC.
longdi
Banned
Okay so I went to the Sony Centre in Nunnawadding and spent about 2 hours in front of the Z9D. If anyone else lives in Melbourne and is interested in doing the same, give them a call, and ask to speak to Ben, he was awesome, and let me bring an XBOX One S and try out anything I wanted. He also gave me the remote and let me change any settings on the TV.
First of all before I plugged in the One S, the demo footage was playing and I was instantly very impressed. Front on I couldn't see any blooming, and I got close to the screen, I was pretty much pressing my nose against it, and the contrast between the brightest highlights and the black right next to it was incredible and I couldn't spot any halo-ing.
All that changes when you go off angle though, and the weaknesses of LCD are immediately apparent. You can definitely see blooming at an angle, and that might be a dealbreaker for some, in my case, I'm never going to be anywhere but directly in front, so it's not an issue for me personally.
Anyway, he came over and we plugged the XBOX in, and spent quite a while trying to set it up properly. We kept getting a whole bunch of crosses on the 4K compatibility screen on the XB1. And playing anything with HDR turned on just looked shit, way over saturated and heavy contrast.
After a while we figured out that the HDMI port had to be set to enhanced mode (bolded in case anyone else wants to go try it out, HDR will not work unless this is done), then we got 100% green ticks on the 4K compatibility scene. Before we got this stuff sorted out that, I was already impressed with the set. Gears of War and Forza both looked very good, and I was very happy with the input lag. But when we finally got HDR working, and we booted up Forza and Gears, holy smokes... it was a game changer. In the opening scenes of Gears you're storming a beach like location, and there is this intense blue lightning, which is just incredible on the Z9D. Forza is a similar story, the colours and HDR were incredible, the sky looked amazing, and the highlights of the sun reflecting off the cars and puddles looked insane.
Switching from HDR on to HDR off was like going from graded footage to LOG footage. It's amazing how what was originally impressive (the TV running in standard) quickly becomes shit compared to HDR, and also how quickly your eyes adjust to HDR and accept it as standard.
Next up I tested out Mad Max on 4K Blu Ray (sadly the only one I own), but similar results here. Black performance is outstanding, the TV looks like it's turned off during black scenes, and even with bright objects against a black background like the opening titles held up extremely well (I even went to the end credits, and was very impressed with how well it did pure white against pure black, I couldn't see any halo-ing on axis).
Things that impressed me in Mad Max were again the specular highlights, HDR really brings the picture alive, fire looks amazing, the sun reflecting off the steering wheel right before they enter the storm looked awesome, and then when they entered the storm the lightning was just crazy, the Z9D can get seriously bright, and it helps for HDR heaps.
At that stage I felt like I'd seen enough, and then went to The Good Guys to check out the OLEDs.
They didn't have the G6 on display unfortunately, just the E6, but I've been told the only difference is the soundbar, so it should more or less be the same.
The guys there also let me hook up the XB1 S, and try stuff out. Initially we had the same issues as the Sony, and the HDMI port had to be set to Enhanced Colour something, and the TV restarted itself, then we got all green ticks, and were ready to go.
Right off the bat, the OLED impresses with it's pure blacks, and glossier (than the Z9D) screen.
I started with Mad Max, and initially I wasn't happy as I could see motion artefacts all over the place, and there was a slight amount of SOE (very subtle mind you). Specifically in scenes with the cars that have the sticks sticking out of them (see below) when they swayed from side to side there was shocking artefacting.
So I asked the guys if I could muck around with the settings, and they were very happy to let me do so, so I turned off all TruMotion, Noise Reduction etc settings, and the image cleaned up remarkably, but once I did that, it introduced unbelievable judder in the image. Very evident in the first scene Furiosa is driving away, if you look at the clouds in the sky as they drive by and the camera pans across it was like the video was stuttering.
I tried mucking around with the settings a bit more, but any motion enhancement I turned on would bring back the SOE / motion artefacts. The guy in the store tried doing something with the OLED which turned it off (screen refresh or cycle) but it didn't fix anything. So I'm not 100% sure what the best settings are for it, it was my first time mucking around with an OLED. If anyone who has one has optimal settings to remove SOE without introducing judder let me know and I'll go back and try again.
Anyway, I wasn't satisfied with Mad Max, so then I tried Forza Horizon, and while it looked nice, and the blacks were very deep, it didn't have quite the intensity or impact of the Z9D, and I think that comes down to the peak brightness of the sets. Keep in mind, when I was looking at the Z9D, it didn't look too bright, or strain my eyes, it was only small parts of the scene that would go super bright, and if anything it just looked more true to life.
I noticed more reflections on the OLED, but I put that down to store conditions and the glossier screen, not really an issue.
Anyway I think that about covers it, sorry for the gigantic post, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask. As for what I'll be going with in December, after spending a good amount of time with both, it's the Z9D hands down, even if it was more expensive, I'd get it over the OLED. The motion issues I experienced with the OLED instantly cancel it out as I couldn't deal with that, despite the amazing quality of the screen and black levels. The Z9D simply had more of a wow factor also, and the HDR presentation was much more impactful.
Same impression i got when viewing LED based HDR (Z9D) and OLED based HDR(G6). Somehow the higher brightness helps combat some of those OLED individual lighted pixels.
Another set i would give a try would be Panasonic DX900(902 in some parts of the world). It has a smaller 58" model if you want save$ on the space.
I am waiting for next years set though, it seems 4K HDR sets are nearing 'perfection'.
Okay, I didn't enable TruMotion, it was on by default. I turned it off because I could notice it was adding SOE / motion artefacting around those items pictured above.
I highly doubt it was something to do with the player, I'm not saying the XB1S is an amazing 4K Blu Ray Player (it's the cheapest on the market), but I didn't see these issues on the Z9D, which kind of eliminates the player issue.
So, the setting I need to enable on the OLED is called RealCinema? I don't recall seeing it in the menu, which section is it under? I went through all of the settings in picture mode and into Expert Control and don't recall seeing it.
Yeah, it gives a much more impactful HDR presentation for sure.
Thanks for the tip, while I haven't spent the same amount of time with the Panasonic, I have spent a bit of time, and in that time I noticed some very slight uniformity issues which I wasn't happy with. It could be eliminated on a different panel, but the Z9D was instantly more impressive than what I've seen of the Panny.
65" is ideal for me, I would love to go 75" but the girlfriend won't allow it, 65" is the trade off for letting me get a big Dolby Atmos surround set up
I wish I was in your position and could wait a year, OLED is only going to get better, and LCDs will benefit from standards being ironed out on the HDR front, but I'm moving into my apartment in December, and need a TV by then
If I could I would definitely wait a year or two, but for now I think I'm going to be very happy with the Z, and I'm glad I checked both of them out.Rice-Eater
Member
Anybody getting the new 4k LeEco TV's? It's pretty thin and seems to have plenty of features. The 43 inch model cost $450 with the $200 instant rebate if you buy it at launch. It jumps back to $650 right afterward. I was going to wait for Black Friday to grab either a 28 inch 4k monitor or a 40/43 inch TV for my bedroom. But I'm awfully tempted to grab this instead.
HDTV Test is without a doubt the best review site on the net for TV's. I've been using them as ref since early 2000's and they've only gotten better.
Just posted in comments asking if they can upload high res uncompressed images.
Really good to see such a positive review. Next years models from LG & Sony will kill it!
Most impressive thing I found was how it beat out the Oppo in upscaling...that is insane for a TV. Very happy that Sony & LG have really stepped it up. Samsung needs to deliver next year it's falling behind when it comes to flagships.
They are indeed great, I'm asking for high res pics since years but no change in this segment
farmerboy
Member
Great read, didn't realise you were from Melbourne! I've been thinking about ringing that Sony store to see if they had one but you've answered my question.
Got to ask, what price are we looking at? And when do we see a general release?
Cheers! I'm glad it was helpful
Definitely go down there and check it out for yourself! It was worth the trip for me!So retail is $6999, but they had it marked on the floor at $6,500. The guy I was speaking to said that when I was ready to buy to shoot him an e-mail and he would work out a great price, so I'm not exactly sure what that means, maybe just over $6k?
He said they were sold out of stock, they only had the floor model, so that leads me to believe it could be a while until stores like JB HiFi, The Good Guys and Harvey Norman get stock. I know every JB in Melbourne have 1 of them on order, but none have come yet. They've had them on order for at least a month, so who knows! I'm guessing they're not shipping a whole bunch over, but the guy at Sony said they'd have fresh stock next month which is good if you were looking to buy soon.
Let me know how you go, I'm keen to hear other peoples impressions!
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
correct, real cinema is essentially the native 24 fps thing. You need to enable it.
Also, true cinema does give better motion performance on the TV, something like dejudder 1/2 and deblur 5.
The_Spaniard
Netmarble
I've been looking at the same deal. I'm going to wait till Black Friday just on the one in a million chance that one of the more reputable stores either comes close or offers a bundle with extras that helps make up the difference. That or call Cleveland Plasma and check out what they have going on, which has been recommended to me in this thread.
Still debating between the ks8000 and a B6...keep going back and forth between those two. The vendors at both the stores I visited weren't too positive on selling oled tv's, they said some things about life span not being great on oleds and that picture quality degrades over time, due to it having organic parts.
Do they have a point? Or were they just trying to sell a Samsung?
Do they have a point? Or were they just trying to sell a Samsung?
The_Spaniard
Netmarble
While the organic elements do decay over time, the tech has improved over the years which has increased the lifespan. LG is claiming their latest sets are at about a 100,000 hour lifespan now. Though even if it was half that it would still be pretty decent.
holygeesus
Banned
That or they were trying to sell you an OLED from 2008.
Not really the best on TV's, but would this be ok for the Scorpio/PS4 Pro?
https://m.johnlewis.com/samsung-ue4...-playstation-now-branch-feet-design/p/2611376
Would the HDR on this be ok? Can I get something better for cheaper?
https://m.johnlewis.com/samsung-ue4...-playstation-now-branch-feet-design/p/2611376
Would the HDR on this be ok? Can I get something better for cheaper?
Dr Zhivago
Member
That's the curved version of the KS7000 (8000 in the US) that a lot of people are recommending, so you should be OK.
blankslatenator
Banned
Well I have the E6 OLED, and love it! Just remember tax needs to be included with price, plus warranty costs, I went from $3500 to $4300, but have a full 3 year Best Buy warranty and live in CA (10% sales tax...).
Yeah that's my bad I should have researched before I went in, I've been doing some reading since then and came across this on HDTVTest's review of the E6
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled55e6-201604274285.htm
I must say, I'm disappointed that the guys in the store (one of them wearing an LG OLED branded shirt) were unable to identify the issue I was seeing, and enable the proper settings to best show off the display, alas!
How have you gone with the Z9D? Have you guys got it set up yet? I'm anxious to hear your thoughts haha.
ACH1LL3US
Member
I had the sony 43x800d and now have the samsung 49ks8500.
With my Leo bodnar tester at 1080p, the sony showed 32.8ms and the samsung 22.7ms.
Now noone talks about this but each block, top, middle and bottom have different numbers.
The samsung has a top bar of 22.6ms, middle is 22.7ms and the bottom is 22.8 ms.
The sony has 26ms top, 32ms middle and 39ms bottom.
The samsung scan out the full image much fast then the sony, almost like plasma did where all three bars are the same. This effects how the game feels.
Look at pc monitors, I had a samsung monitor and the top bar had 2.9ms, middle was at 9.2ms and the bottom is 17.2ms.
So the samsung ks8500 is really only 5ms slower then the fastest pc monitors i tested like the asus pg278q.
I do notice on the samsung if you enable uhd color, it show 4:4:4 even in game mode and will display 10 but color but the input lag increases to 35ms on the middle bar, right where the sony is and to me there is a clear feeling difference with lag there. I cant tell a lag difference with the ks8500 outside of uhd color and a pc monitor, its feel the same but looks a 100 times better.
The lowest input lag tvs out there right now are samsungs, they actually care about lag in gaming and reducing it.
For 4k gaming or systems like ps4 pro and xbox one s that upscale to 4k, the ks8500 lowers the lag down to 19.8ms, which is great!
Does anyone know if running 4k and 10bit color with uhd color on increases lag the same as 4:4:4 in game mode?
That's the same crap that sales people did to plasma.
theSlacker
Member
Personally I'd wait
and am waiting
I have the samsung amd my buddy has the vizio. I love the FALD on his set, and minor light bleed is definitely present on the samsung, but I think the picture and colors don't look as nice on the vizio. It looks dull to me. Both are fantastic sets though.
mmazurkiewicz
Member
No offense but you got massively ripped off.
You can get a 55 E6 for $2500 no tax/no extra warranty right now.
JudgmentJay
Member
Yeah, pretty sure Cleveland Plasma is selling the 65" for $4k shipped... maybe less now. No tax outside of Ohio.
If you're in Jersey this guy has B6 C6 E6 different sizes for decent prices 55 inch E6 2200 http://newjersey.craigslist.org/eld/5815014559.html
Sounds more like the 65 inch version?
mmazurkiewicz
Member
he said its 3500 at bestbuy which is bestbuys price for the 55.
dreamcastfan
Member
Does your friend have the M or P series? Because the P series has the wide color gamut. I would be surprised if it was the P series, because on mine the colors pop like crazy. Just curious.
jedmaxwell
Member
Looks like the KS7000 (UK/Euro model) is a good buy having read HDTVtest's review.
When will we know? CES 2017? How long do tv sets take to release in the market after shown at CES?
Theonik
Member
March to May is new TV season.
The_Spaniard
Netmarble
That's the crushing dilemma for me. I want a TV now, but if I wait I might get a much better TV when next year's models come out, but I don't want to wait 6 months, but next year's high end LG OLED models might not support 3D anymore (which is a deal breaker for me). I kinda want to wait, but I also don't want this to turn into a dragon chase.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
upside is you can wait until January, see what the new models are announced at CES, and if they don't have 3D, you can score a current model at a nice discount as the new ones begin rolling out.
if they do have 3D, then you can happily get the new model (though you'll pay more for fresh models that early on)
For the people with the B6, how is the motion performance on this set? I'm coming from a 60hz panasonic plasma (ST60), which has no soap opera effect and handles motion very well. My samsung on the other hand has a stutter to it if I turn off Auto motion plus.. I'm hoping that the B6 wont have that problem cause it drives me crazy.
As a former owner of the 2016 M70-D3 and a current owner of a KS8000, I couldn't disagree more on your assessment; it's more complicated than what you're painting.
One, Vizio's UI is nonexistent while Samsung has one of the best integrated user interfaces out there. My KS8000 can read and label all the inputs, integrate with my DirecTV receiver so I get show previews, and a really slick universal remote that has voice control built into the remote. Vizio does the whole GoogleCast approach which means you need to beam content from other devices instead of using a built in app, not a fan of having to search for a tablet to control what I'm watching.
Two, Vizio's 2016 line has a bunch of problems with various 4K HDR sources. My M70 would routinely have video and audio dropouts, and Vizio keeps releasing software patches that create new problems. As of 10 days ago, the M Series line couldn't show 4K HDR movies or HDR gaming from the Xbox One S, which is unbelievable.
Three, speaking of being future proof, Samsung is much better positioned for that because of their One Connect platform, allowing owners to upgrade their HDMI ports to support future standards. Dolby Vision may be a superior HDR format, but HDR10 has wider adoption and appears to be positioned to win the format war since its free, whereas Dolby Vision requires dedicated hardware and licensing fees. Also, Samsung has a better track record of continuing to support their sets. I have a 2015 M-Series that didn't get much software support in new apps. On the flip-side, Samsung pushed firmware to 2015 sets to support HDR when they didn't have to do that.
Four, input lag on Vizio HDR content is not "slightly higher", it's 3x higher than what Samsung has accomplished on the KS8000. I know the Vizio CTO is on record tying to find ways to reduce input lag, but it is what it right now.
Don't get me wrong, Vizio is not a bad brand, but I have zero confidence in their ability to get their software situation together after going thru 3 firmware updates on my 2016 M Series. To their credit, Vizio issued me a full refund for the set I bought after owning it for 4 months based on my dissatisfaction.
As someone that has had the opportunity to own both sets this year, Samsung's KS8000 is just an all-around, more polished and elegantly designed set, from top to bottom.
Sony may have some updates to their current tvs for 4k gaming apparently this month. So you may still be able to jump in. I saw a post about it recently on AVS forums, but curious to see what happens.