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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED

tokkun

Member
Thank you, but I still don't really understand. Does that mean only 300 lines are updated each frame? Surely that can't be true?

The sets still update at full resolution. However your eyes will perceive it as only 300 lines, so the image will look blurry. It is an optical illusion that has to do with the fact that the eye expects real life moving objects to move smoothly through space. Whereas on a TV, the object is fixed in place for each frame, then jumps in position on the next frame. This causes the eye to perceive lower resolution when attempting to track a moving object.

As I said earlier, there are two methods for defeating this optical problem:

1. Instead of holding the same image on screen for the entire frame, you can flicker it on and off at a faster rate. This is what plasmas and CRTs did. You might remember plasmas being advertised as having a 600 Hz refresh rate - this is what that was talking about. They would flicker the image on and off 600 times a second, regardless of what the frame rate of the source material was. In the case of OLED & LCD, they do not inherently flicker. However they can simulate something similar by refreshing faster than the source material and inserting a black frame in every other refresh. This doesn't require any fancy computations, but because the screen is black half the time, it appears only half as bright to your eye. Incidentally, a number of high-end gaming displays use similar techniques, like Oculus Rift and monitors that support LightBoost.

2. A second option is that instead of inserting black frames, the TV looks at two frames of the source material and computes its own "in-between" frame, then displays that. This is called motion interpolation. Since you aren't using a black frame, the screen is just as bright. However the computation takes time, which introduces latency. And if the TV makes a mistake in predicting what the in-between frame should look like, you will see visual artifacts or judder.

And what does Sony do to improve this? Panel tech is the same, so... frame interpolation? But that will be turned off in Game mode, so I just don't get what it does differently to make games look better in motion.

Sony supports black frame insertion, and LG doesn't. You can use BFI in game mode, because it doesn't introduce any input lag. It does reduce the maximum brightness of the screen, though. However when playing SDR games that may not be a problem. This is one of the big reasons that gamers ought to care about advancements in brightness, even if they already think their TV is bright enough.

Many people also say that Sony's motion interpolation is better than LGs, however for people who care a lot about input latency this doesn't matter, since they will turn off motion interpolation.
 

longdi

Banned
Put an order for LG C7, 55" for around USD2.2K around these parts. 120hz at 1080p.

Imo LG entry level OLED are pretty much the most bang for bucks. Supposedly its PQ is as good as their high end, and 2017 series have same SoC across the range. To match B/C series OLED, i have to look at FALD and those are much higher priced.

I really wonder why more brands are not moving to OLED? There is a huge quality and price gap between entry level LED and high end ones. While (luckily) with OLED panels, manufacturers cant cheat costs that affect performance.
 

DSN2K

Member
need some advice, looking at getting a new TV...we sit less then 2m away from the screen in my small flat so ideally do I really need anything bigger then 43in TV ? Im thinking 50in is bit over Kill frankly. Would 4K be worth it at 40/43in size or should I just go for a decent 1080p display.
 

tokkun

Member
I really wonder why more brands are not moving to OLED? There is a huge quality and price gap between entry level LED and high end ones. While (luckily) with OLED panels, manufacturers cant cheat costs that affect performance.

OLED is hard to manufacture. There used to be more companies working on developing it, but they dropped it for that reason. This is why Sony buys panels from LG for their OLEDs and also why getting an OLED > 65" costs $20K.

The majority of consumers just want a TV that is cheap, large, and will look pretty good in their living room. Right now OLED does not compete well in that market because of the production cost. And the premium market is not so big that it makes financial sense for every manufacturer to build their own OLED factories to compete for a small slice of the pie.
 

III-V

Member
need some advice, looking at getting a new TV...we sit less then 2m away from the screen in my small flat so ideally do I really need anything bigger then 43in TV ? Im thinking 50in is bit over Kill frankly. Would 4K be worth it at 40/43in size or should I just go for a decent 1080p display.

I have a 43" I sit between 2-3 feet from it and it looks great. I would say 5 feet is the absolute max distance I would prefer to use this set at.

At 5-6 feet, then I would suggest a 49".

55" would be large.
 

robo

Member
Think I'm going to wait until next year for hdmi 2.1 stuff to drop.

I also need to get a new amp and hopefully some 7.2 atmos speakers.

I can wangle another year out of my kuro, still a very good set for 6 years old.

Will see what the 2018 sets bring and go from there.

Will try and build my uhd disc collection as well and hopefully won't be to long for the ps5 to land afterwards.

Looking at summer 2018 after my bonus drops to start looking.

£500 for amp
£1200 for speakers (realistic?)
£3-4000 for tv 55" should do me
 

Jedi2016

Member
I know there's different formats of HDR content and how they're assembled and all that, but how much of a difference is there for the TV? I don't see a lot of discussion on the manufacturer sites about the HDR implementation, in general it's either a "yes" or a "no" on the TV's support.

Does that mean that I'm good just buying any TV that says it has HDR? (I'm looking at LG screens right now, from the last year or two).
 

vpance

Member
I know there's different formats of HDR content and how they're assembled and all that, but how much of a difference is there for the TV? I don't see a lot of discussion on the manufacturer sites about the HDR implementation, in general it's either a "yes" or a "no" on the TV's support.

Does that mean that I'm good just buying any TV that says it has HDR? (I'm looking at LG screens right now, from the last year or two).

Which models in particular?

Implementation wise obviously there's going to be some difference because each TV has different levels of brightness and contrast.

It depends how much you care about HDR, so it's best to see it for yourself in person among different TVs.
 

ngower

Member
Think I'm going to wait until next year for hdmi 2.1 stuff to drop.

I also need to get a new amp and hopefully some 7.2 atmos speakers.

I can wangle another year out of my kuro, still a very good set for 6 years old.

Will see what the 2018 sets bring and go from there.

Will try and build my uhd disc collection as well and hopefully won't be to long for the ps5 to land afterwards.

Looking at summer 2018 after my bonus drops to start looking.

£500 for amp
£1200 for speakers (realistic?)
£3-4000 for tv 55" should do me

You could probably get a lower range set of B&W or something for that price speaker-wise, but I'd check local hi-fi shops and see if they have any closeout models to stretch your money a bit further.
 
This is a bit concerning:

"A1 isn’t fitted with Sony’s "Clear" MotionFlow settings so we opted for the "Personal" setting instead to reduce motion blur. It is possible to activate Black Frame Insertion on A1 but the frequency is too low, making it unpleasant to look at. The effect of activating BFI was far too negligible for us to recommend using it."

http://flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1492757435

It seems like the BFI is only tolerable with 60fps content?
 

Jedi2016

Member
Which models in particular?
I ended up with the 8500 series from LG. Last year's model, since there's zero functional differences between the 8500 and this year's 9500 (the newer one weighs less and... that's it). It's new enough to support all the HDR formats.
 

Madness

Member
I know there's different formats of HDR content and how they're assembled and all that, but how much of a difference is there for the TV? I don't see a lot of discussion on the manufacturer sites about the HDR implementation, in general it's either a "yes" or a "no" on the TV's support.

Does that mean that I'm good just buying any TV that says it has HDR? (I'm looking at LG screens right now, from the last year or two).

Every single HDR television on the market supports HDR10, the base standard and what 98% of the content out now uses. In fact almost all UHD blu-ray are HDR10 spec mastered. However, not all televisions hit thr wide color gamut or brightness level requirements for HDR10. That is why any television that says UHD Premium certified means you have a television that hits what is required for base HDR10.

Anything with Dolby Vision is ahead of HDR10 and more future proof. So if you have a Dolby Vision supported television you are good. Most of this years models will also support HDR10+ and Hybrid Log Gamma soon.

Don't buy anything previous to mid 2016 anymore in my opinion. You want to look at black levels, nit brightness, and wide color gamut aka DCI and color accuracy support for any model you get.
 

Jijidasu

Member
I have a minor concern/question relating to my LG B6 I bought recently:

I have been playing Horizon Zero Dawn on it a lot recently, and boy does it look great. I have however noticed that on very dark (nearly 100% black) screens (such as on the map screen while inside an interior complex in H:ZD) that there is a slight, and very faint white box/series of lines stretching down from one of the very bright UI elements on the screen.

I couldn't get a decent picture and I'm currently at work so I cannot try again until much later today, but I am struggling to find information about this phenomenon.

I also tried to see if the problem replicated outside of the game; so I first looked through the screenshots folder on my PS4. I noticed that screenshots that are mostly black but have some bright white UI elements replicated this ghosting/bloom bleed effect. It was generally a very faint, stretched "beam" of light that stretched in one direction rather. It also kind of flickered. It is not a big issue for me, and I thought perhaps it is an issue with OLED.

I also do not notice this effect in game, only on dark screens with static elements. Is this a cause for concern? I've only had this OLED for 3 weeks, for what it matters.
 

longdi

Banned
OLED is hard to manufacture. There used to be more companies working on developing it, but they dropped it for that reason. This is why Sony buys panels from LG for their OLEDs and also why getting an OLED > 65" costs $20K.

The majority of consumers just want a TV that is cheap, large, and will look pretty good in their living room. Right now OLED does not compete well in that market because of the production cost. And the premium market is not so big that it makes financial sense for every manufacturer to build their own OLED factories to compete for a small slice of the pie.

How is LG display profitability? Im still stonked that we can get an almost endgame display(needs hdmi 2.1 vrr) for usd2k+ in 2017. If LG margins is able to get away with this, why are others wasting time with edge lit LED? While $2k is not cheap, most people are not to going spend this amount every year, and 55" is really a good size for a while.

Wonder what are the LED tvs you can get for $2k.
 

vpance

Member
How is LG display profitability? Im still stonked that we can get an almost endgame display(needs hdmi 2.1 vrr) for usd2k+ in 2017. If LG margins is able to get away with this, why are others wasting time with edge lit LED? While $2k is not cheap, most people are not to going spend this amount every year, and 55" is really a good size for a while.

Wonder what are the LED tvs you can get for $2k.

End game displays already? Lol no. For a little over $2K you can get Samsung's flagship FALD of last year. Or you can get one of Sony's 2017 models all of which are great performers too.

MicroLED like Sony's CLEDIS will be good enough for end game.
 

wege12

Member
End game displays already? Lol no. For a little over $2K you can get Samsung's flagship FALD of last year. Or you can get one of Sony's 2017 models all of which are great performers too.

MicroLED like Sony's CLEDIS will be good enough for end game.

Does Sony intend to scale CLEDIS down to consumer television sizes?
 
Are we likely to see smaller OLEDs on the market any time soon? I need a new TV for my desk and would love an OLED, but I sit so close that anything more than about 43" wouldn't work.
 

Clopezi

Member
Hi!

I need a TV (or monitor) with 4K resolution, a 10bits panel, 1000 nits or more and HDR certified, and the difficult part, about 32' to 40' inches.

Thanks!
 

Paragon

Member
This is a bit concerning:
"A1 isn’t fitted with Sony’s "Clear" MotionFlow settings so we opted for the "Personal" setting instead to reduce motion blur. It is possible to activate Black Frame Insertion on A1 but the frequency is too low, making it unpleasant to look at. The effect of activating BFI was far too negligible for us to recommend using it."
http://flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1492757435
It seems like the BFI is only tolerable with 60fps content?
The people writing these reviews just don't seem to understand how black frame insertion works.
It is only usable when the source framerate matches the refresh rate.

If you have a 30 FPS source with 60Hz BFI, you will get double images when things move.
If you have a 60 FPS source and 120Hz BFI, you will also get double images when things move.

The frequency is not "too low" if they are using 60Hz BFI with 60 FPS sources; it is exactly what it needs to be for it to work correctly.
If the complaint is really about flicker, the issue is the low framerate sources that are being used today, not BFI.

It's a shame that the display does not include MotionFlow Clear though, since that combines BFI with motion interpolation.
That would interpolate a lower framerate source to 120 FPS or 240 FPS so that 120Hz or 240Hz BFI could be used to reduce the amount of flicker.
Not having the option there suggests that the way they're doing BFI would require a panel that can be updated at 240Hz to do 120Hz BFI - so they're actually inserting black frames as part of the video signal instead of switching the panel off to create black frames, like you would do with an LCD backlight.
 
I have a minor concern/question relating to my LG B6 I bought recently:

I have been playing Horizon Zero Dawn on it a lot recently, and boy does it look great. I have however noticed that on very dark (nearly 100% black) screens (such as on the map screen while inside an interior complex in H:ZD) that there is a slight, and very faint white box/series of lines stretching down from one of the very bright UI elements on the screen.

I couldn't get a decent picture and I'm currently at work so I cannot try again until much later today, but I am struggling to find information about this phenomenon.

I also tried to see if the problem replicated outside of the game; so I first looked through the screenshots folder on my PS4. I noticed that screenshots that are mostly black but have some bright white UI elements replicated this ghosting/bloom bleed effect. It was generally a very faint, stretched "beam" of light that stretched in one direction rather. It also kind of flickered. It is not a big issue for me, and I thought perhaps it is an issue with OLED.

I also do not notice this effect in game, only on dark screens with static elements. Is this a cause for concern? I've only had this OLED for 3 weeks, for what it matters.

Maybe you increased the TVs brightness setting too much? If you elevate blacks then you will reveal some flickering noise in the below black signal levels.
On my B6 while playing Horizon in HDR any brightness setting above 50 leads to elevated blacks.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Cuningas de Häme;234421763 said:
So, is there any TVs without "smart" functions anymore?

I do not want that my TV has an OS that is easily hacked via OTA. And I know how shitty manufacturers are with proper updates on anything that isn't a phone (well, most of the phones lack proper updates too..).

I just want a TV that has basic functions working as fast as possible, minimal lag, at least a 100Hz native and not some program or such, enough ports for my stuff and a sensible menu. Is there a such thing, or do I just have to accept that I will have to get an insecure machine full of unnecessary junk?

I am a simple man. I want that my stuff do one thing, and does it well. TV is for giving a nice picture for my movies/games/sports, console is for games, audio stuff is for audio without clouds and whatnot...





I have been reading a lot about IoT and the problems it has, and frankly it is terrifying. Your damn dishwasher can be hijacked to become a part of a botnet. I study automation and lately we have been speaking about the future of technology. No one ever mentions these problems, everybody's gushing over the possibilities without any sense of responsibility. I am more in line with Stephen Hawkins, Elon Musk and Theo Kaczynski. Of course I am more concerned about the real life threats in immediate future, but if some of the brightest members of society are warning about going full speed ahead without thinking... Something's wrong.

But now I have to go get some more aluminium foil for my hat...

If you're paranoid about it, just don't connect it to the internet. Problem solved.
 

BumRush

Member

AVForums A1E Review said:
The only questions left are whether the A1 is worth the asking price and what are the alternatives. Well, price is always relative but there's no denying that the design, build quality, features and performance go a long way towards justifying the £4,999 price tag of the 65A1. As far as the competition is concerned it's still early days but with the LG 65E7 costing the same, the A1 starts to look like better value when you consider that both have similar feature sets but the A1 has a more striking design and the Acoustic Surface sound system. If anything the A1 might find its biggest competitor is its own sister LCD flagship the KD-65ZD9 which at just £3,499 is looking very tempting, especially when you consider the similar features and superior peak brightness. However the KD-65A1 remains another great addition to what is fast becoming an incredibly strong line-up this year.

Interesting. Man, I hope Sony stays in the OLED game for a few years. Nothing like competition.
 

TheBoss1

Member
Interesting. Man, I hope Sony stays in the OLED game for a few years. Nothing like competition.

Yeah I mentioned this same thing about comparing this set to the E7 and not the C7 like everyone else is doing. Without the unique sound, design, and X1E processor, this set would be a lot closer in price to the C7 which is a entry level OLED model.
 

BumRush

Member
Yeah I mentioned this same thing about comparing this set to the E7 and not the C7 like everyone else is doing. Without the unique sound, design, and X1E processor, this set would be a lot closer in price to the C7 which is a entry level OLED model.

Yeah, it makes sense.
 

Madness

Member

They say 29 ms for 4K/60 with HDR input lag. That is pretty crazy for Sony especially with their superior image processing.

Can't wait to see OLED growth from next year as Sony and LG jostle with each other, and Samsung hopefully attempts to enter the market. The speaker while people may hate it as a gimmick, seems to be pretty great for those who don't have receiver setups or soundbars. Pretty boneheaded of Sony to continue with their only 2 of the 4 HDMI ports being 2.0a this is a flagship. Make all 4. This is why I am worried for those waiting for 2018 thinking they will get HDMI 2.1... these companies really skimp out sometimes. Samsung only gave 1 of the 4+ ports HDR or 4k/60 support if you bought a television that didn't utilize their OneConnect bar in 2016 etc. And HDMI 2.0a and 2.0b have beeb available for years.
 

tokkun

Member
The people writing these reviews just don't seem to understand how black frame insertion works.
It is only usable when the source framerate matches the refresh rate.

If you have a 30 FPS source with 60Hz BFI, you will get double images when things move.
If you have a 60 FPS source and 120Hz BFI, you will also get double images when things move.

The frequency is not "too low" if they are using 60Hz BFI with 60 FPS sources; it is exactly what it needs to be for it to work correctly.
If the complaint is really about flicker, the issue is the low framerate sources that are being used today, not BFI.

It's a shame that the display does not include MotionFlow Clear though, since that combines BFI with motion interpolation.
That would interpolate a lower framerate source to 120 FPS or 240 FPS so that 120Hz or 240Hz BFI could be used to reduce the amount of flicker.
Not having the option there suggests that the way they're doing BFI would require a panel that can be updated at 240Hz to do 120Hz BFI - so they're actually inserting black frames as part of the video signal instead of switching the panel off to create black frames, like you would do with an LCD backlight.

Isn't the panel's native refresh rate 120 Hz, though?
 

Jijidasu

Member
Maybe you increased the TVs brightness setting too much? If you elevate blacks then you will reveal some flickering noise in the below black signal levels.
On my B6 while playing Horizon in HDR any brightness setting above 50 leads to elevated blacks.

This was the case. I was messing around with the settings and discovered having the brightness above 50 lead to some funkiness. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Yeah I mentioned this same thing about comparing this set to the E7 and not the C7 like everyone else is doing. Without the unique sound, design, and X1E processor, this set would be a lot closer in price to the C7 which is a entry level OLED model.

What ifs. And mostly all fluff features. It comes down to performance versus cost. Compare the Sony to the E7 if it makes you feel better about the purchase, I guess? Btw, I'd love to know who is spending that much on a set and going with the built-in audio system? Not even a soundbar at the very least? And can you even wall mount the Sony? The Sony and any LG set above the C7 is just a lot of wasted cash for little gains imo.

Anyway. glad I jumped on the cheap B6 wagon. I'll ride this out until there are upgrades in the 2018/2019 models that are worth the asking price.
 
Im about to pull the trigger in the C6, but I saw that rtings gave it a 4.0 for flickering (really its only poor showing). Is this something that someone whos not an absolute videophile will notice, or is it an actual issue?
 

Kyoufu

Member
Im about to pull the trigger in the C6, but I saw that rtings gave it a 4.0 for flickering (really its only poor showing). Is this something that someone whos not an absolute videophile will notice, or is it an actual issue?

I've never seen any flicker ever. Didn't even know it was a thing.
 

molnizzle

Member
Are 70"+ OLED's ever going to not be $20,000?

Shit.

Wife is bugging me for a bigger screen in the new media room. Normally this would be an excellent problem to have, but she wants bigger than 65". I want OLED.

-_-
 

Jigolo

Member
Are 70"+ OLED's ever going to not be $20,000?

Shit.

Wife is bugging me for a bigger screen in the new media room. Normally this would be an excellent problem to have, but she wants bigger than 65". I want OLED.

-_-

Yes, they are. The new 77 inch LG G7 OLED is 16K
 

BumRush

Member
Are 70"+ OLED's ever going to not be $20,000?

Shit.

Wife is bugging me for a bigger screen in the new media room. Normally this would be an excellent problem to have, but she wants bigger than 65". I want OLED.

-_-

Is that where you intend to watch the majority of your TV?
 

molnizzle

Member
Yes, they are. The new 77 inch LG G7 OLED is 16K

😑

Is that where you intend to watch the majority of your TV?

Yeah. We use the media room nightly. Current media room is a 1080p projector thrown to a 106" screen. New media room is quite a bit smaller so I think 65" will be fine. New media room will probably become my primary gaming zone too since it won't be a projector anymore.
 

longdi

Banned
End game displays already? Lol no. For a little over $2K you can get Samsung's flagship FALD of last year. Or you can get one of Sony's 2017 models all of which are great performers too.

MicroLED like Sony's CLEDIS will be good enough for end game.
Not around here sadly.
I guess you can also get last gen oled for under​2k, i don't think any 2k led can match it in PQ.

Since the cheapest oled competes with the premium fald, i wonder why the industry is not moving to oled? Is the lifespan of oled TV still low perhaps?
 

vpance

Member
Not around here sadly.
I guess you can also get last gen oled for under​2k, i don't think any 2k led can match it in PQ.

Since the cheapest oled competes with the premium fald, i wonder why the industry is not moving to oled? Is the lifespan of oled TV still low perhaps?

The answer is there's room for both LED and OLED TVs. And both have significant advantages and disadvantages when compared to one another.
 

BumRush

Member
Yeah. We use the media room nightly. Current media room is a 1080p projector thrown to a 106" screen. New media room is quite a bit smaller so I think 65" will be fine. New media room will probably become my primary gaming zone too since it won't be a projector anymore.

Ah, I was going to say get a projector. A 65" OLED will be a massive step up in PQ but a massive step down in size!
 

Kyoufu

Member
given the decrease in uniformity from the 55->65, I'd be really curious what greyscale patterns show on the 77

arrival-gif.gif
 

Paragon

Member
Isn't the panel's native refresh rate 120 Hz, though?
Yes, but since they appear to be inserting black frames as part of the video signal, that means the BFI rate will be 60Hz.
With an LCD strobing the backlight, a 120Hz panel can do 120Hz BFI (or any other rate) since the black frame insertion is done by switching the backlight off and not actually drawing black images on the LCD panel.
 
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