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FrankCanada97 · Oct 17, 2017

According to the ESRB these are the descriptors given to gambling:

Real Gambling - Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency
Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency

Let me tell you about an MMO I played for some time called Puzzle Pirates. It's a pirate themed MMO launched in 2003 where the majority of gameplay takes place in various puzzle minigames. The entirety of the game economy is player-run, prices of various items changed according to supply and demand. Imagine a simplified version of EVE Online. Characters were locked to one server and every server had their self-contained economy. The primary currency in game was called "pieces of eight" (PoE). You gained PoE by taking part in pirate pillages which is available to everyone.

Up until 2005, the majority of significant in-game actions was locked behind a subscription model. The developers introduced Free-to-Play servers and a premium currency called "doubloons". You can buy doubloons for around $0.20-$0.25 each, however doubloons are only sold in the following packages:

How much do doubloons cost?

Doubloons are available in the following packages:

$2.99 for 12 Doubloons (~$0.25 per doubloon)
$9.99 for 42 Doubloons (~$0.24 per doubloon)
$19.99 for 90 Doubloons (~$0.22 per doubloon)
$49.99 for 240 Doubloons (~$0.21 per doubloon)
$99.99 for 500 Doubloons (~$0.20 per doubloon)

In these servers, doubloons were added to the price of every item as a "delivery fee" and actions that were previously locked behind a subscription now needed "badges" that could only be bought with doubloons. However, you could exchange PoE for doubloons and vice versa at in-game banks. The conversion rate is dependent on the economy of the server.

I've given you a basic idea of how money works in this game, so I'll get into the gambling. Players of Puzzle Pirates, when they're not on pillages (which is very often) congregate at the inn where they can play parlour games with other players. The games include Hearts, Spades, a pachinko-like game and poker. Players are freely able to wager PoE in these games. See where I'm going with this? The game was rated T for Teen for "simulated gambling" and "alcohol reference" when Ubisoft published it and later when it released on Steam. A problem gambler or someone who could become one, could be putting in a significant amount of real-world money to gamble with in-game money.

A recent check of the exchange rate shows a conversion of 1 doubloon for 9,000 PoE.

In the above screenshot, the pot is worth around $21 of real money. This is at a high-roller table (small blinds of 20k PoE, big blinds of 200k PoE) which makes up a majority of the tables populating the game. It would be easy for a vulnerable person who got a bad beat say "No problem, I'll just buy some more doubloons and convert those into PoE." And it would be easy, in comparison to just earning PoE through pillaging. When I last played, I was averaging around 5000 PoE per hour. That is if there is a good pillage being run at the moment and if you want to maximize how much PoE you earn, you better be ready to commit up to 4 hours of your time. Due to this, poker actually ends up being the most popular activity in the game at any given moment.

Here is where things become unclear. There is no way to actually cashout PoE into doubloons and then into real money. I guess that technically makes it "simulated gambling" instead of "real gambling". Otherwise, the game would have to be regulated like any other online poker site. This is something that kind of bothers me because, what we have is essentially gambling but technically isn't. Is buying in-game currency to gamble with using real currency gambling with real currency? I would hope that other much more popular MMO's don't have any thing similar to what is going on in Puzzle Pirates.

Ventara · Oct 17, 2017

That is an interesting take I didn't really think about. But I would still consider that gambling since money is involved and, although you can't "cash out," the currency you're buying is used at a chance to win something (in PP's case, actual in-game gambling). The essence of where it feeds on the chance to win something, whether real cash or not, is there, and it asks people to use real money to get in.

nynt9 · Oct 17, 2017

When you can earn real money from it, making it if I play more maybe I can earn back my losses instead of an endless money sink where you never earn back your losses in money. So you cant go into debt expecting to pay it back by gambling.

Thats what ruins peoples lives and makes it an infinite loop. If you cant get money back out of the system its a finite dump of money.

Cynn · Oct 17, 2017

Real money wagered with possible real money payout is gambling. Replacing either of those pillars drops it into simlated gambling or not gambling at all.

Getting something every single time you pay money (even if its random items you may or may not want) isnt gambling. The same way lootboxes arent gambling as well as buying baseball cards, putting money in a capsule machine and winning tickets at Skee-ball isnt.

You may take a gamble personally that you may or may not like what you get in return for your money, but you will always get something in return. As long as thats the case, gambling isnt a title you can give it.

FrankCanada97 · Oct 17, 2017

Cynn said:
Real money wagered with possible real money payout is gambling. Replacing either of those pillars drops it into simlated gambling or not gambling at all.

Getting something every single time you pay money (even if its random items you may or may not want) isnt gambling. The same way lootboxes arent gambling as well as buying baseball cards, putting money in a capsule machine and winning tickets at Skee-ball isnt.

You may take a gamble personally that you may or may not like what you get in return for your money, but you will always get something in return. As long as thats the case, gambling isnt a title you can give it.

But in this case, you get nothing in return if you go all-in on the first hand and lose. You can gamble all your in-game currency away and be left with nothing unless you earn it back pillaging or just buy doubloons and exchange them.

nynt9 · Oct 17, 2017

FrankCanada97 said:
But in this case, you get nothing in return if you go all-in on the first hand and lose. You can gamble all your in-game currency away and be left with nothing unless you earn it back pillaging or just buy doubloons and exchange them.

Still cant cash out for real money though, right? So it doesnt matter.

FrankCanada97 · Oct 17, 2017

nynt9 said:
Still cant cash out for real money though, right? So it doesnt matter.

I guess I'm hung up on the use of real money as a way to pay into a poker game using in-game money. It's technically not gambling, but it doesn't sit right with me. I am personally okay with lootboxes (of which this game also contains), but with poker and all the other parlour games with wagers you either get something or you get nothing.

EDarkness · Oct 17, 2017

Cynn said:
Real money wagered with possible real money payout is gambling. Replacing either of those pillars drops it into simlated gambling or not gambling at all.

Getting something every single time you pay money (even if it's random items you may or may not want) isn't gambling. The same way lootboxes aren't gambling as well as buying baseball cards, putting money in a capsule machine and winning tickets at Skee-ball isn't.

You may take a gamble personally that you may or may not like what you get in return for your money, but you will always get something in return. As long as that's the case, gambling isn't a title you can give it.

I always thought that the idea of "gambling" was about the mental state it puts people in and the bad behavior that comes with that. Whether the reward is real or simulated. The idea of "just one more try" or "if I spend X dollars, I"ll get something" is the behavior that comes with gambling in the first place. What's really bad about "simulated gambling" is that you get the addiction, but no real payout. There's no way to get back what you put in. At least with "real" gambling there's always that chance you'll get lucky and make back what you put in. There have been people who have spent thousands of dollars and have nothing really to show for it. At least nothing tangible. So you get the addiction of gambling without the payout of gambling. I don't think it changes much as either is still gambling. You're putting in something to try and get something else. In this case, paying money to get a CHANCE to get something.

Simulated or not, the behavior it creates is the same. At least with casino gambling in Vegas you can maybe get your money back.

tearsintherain · Oct 17, 2017

I'd say anytime you can instantly reload your account with real money its real gambling. The thrill is the win, not making real money. So if you play, hit zero in your balance, and then really wanna play some more and there is a quick option to load your in game bank account with real life money and you can do that as much as you want... thats real gambling.

A counter example would be a game that only let you earn in game currency by playing, so if you hit zero you'd have to go out and grind/farm/etc before you can get back to gambling. Its still gambling, but there is no way to spend real life money to get that gambling high. Of course, then the problem becomes you will probably be able to "buy" currency from third party sellers who farm for you, etc so its probably an arbitrary and meaningless distinction?

pswii60 · Oct 17, 2017

Cynn said:
Real money wagered with possible real money payout is gambling. Replacing either of those pillars drops it into simlated gambling or not gambling at all.

Getting something every single time you pay money (even if its random items you may or may not want) isnt gambling. The same way lootboxes arent gambling as well as buying baseball cards, putting money in a capsule machine and winning tickets at Skee-ball isnt.

You may take a gamble personally that you may or may not like what you get in return for your money, but you will always get something in return. As long as thats the case, gambling isnt a title you can give it.

Indeed, if loot boxes are gambling, then so were Pokémon trading cards back in the 90s.

EDarkness · Oct 17, 2017

pswii60 said:
Indeed, if loot boxes are gambling, then so were Pokémon trading cards back in the 90s.

I've always considered these to be gambling. The advantage is that you can trade what you got to someone else, but you're paying for the chance or the trill of getting something cool. Even if you end up with a lot of crap as the real good stuff is rare.

zeemumu · Oct 17, 2017

When you're trading money for real goods. Tickets from a spinning wheel machine in Dave and Busters are probably the closest

FrankCanada97 · Oct 17, 2017

I don't know why lootboxes was brought up in this thread. There's plenty of discussion about that already. I want to know your thoughts on whether wagering in-game money that can be bought using real money in poker can be considered gambling.

Mivey · Oct 17, 2017

When you can get money back. Otherwise it's just paying for nothing . I have nothing against an idiot tax. You have to assume (unless it's sold to children, which should be illegal anyway), that people know what they are doing with their own money.

Mihael Mello Keehl · Oct 17, 2017

So you was gambling in the game with fake money you bough with real money to earn more fake money?

lol

EDarkness · Oct 17, 2017

FrankCanada97 said:
I don't know why lootboxes was brought up in this thread. There's plenty of discussion about that already. I want to know your thoughts on whether wagering in-game money that can be bought using real money in poker can be considered gambling.

Isn't this still unavailable to children? I worked at a prominent developer of a casino game and we couldn't let people under 18 play the game. If we found out that the account was used/owned by a minor we had to ban them. The whole game was mostly contained, in that current won at the craps or poker table was only able to be used in the game store, but we didn't make any bones about whether or not the game was gambling. It was treated as such internally and there were many debates about whether or not the government would get involved at some point. Since tokens could be purchased with real money, this was always a thing we had to deal with. Honestly, I'm not sure what the legal rules are for this, though.

Mivey said:
When you can get money back. Otherwise it's just paying for nothing . I have nothing against an idiot tax. You have to assume (unless it's sold to children, which should be illegal anyway), that people know what they are doing with their own money.

You'd be surprised.... So many people writing in that they spent too much money and wanted a refund because they couldn't help themselves.

Alexander DeLarge · Oct 17, 2017

It is real gambling whether or not cash is involved or not. Some of these items have a market value of hundreds of dollars. Just because the publisher doesn't sell the items directly doesn't mean they're without value.

Gambling is accepting, recording, or registering bets, or carrying on a policy game or any other lottery, or playing any game of chance, for money or other thing of value.

thefil · Oct 17, 2017

Mihael Mello Keehl said:
So you was gambling in the game with fake money you bough with real money to earn more fake money?

lol

I was in Japan recently and this is huge there. We spent $80 in about 3 hours on "medal" games where you buy medals which you can gamble in machines. AFAIK there is no way to cash out your medals.

That said, Monster Hunter Medal Hunting G is super fun.

FrankCanada97 · Oct 17, 2017

Mihael Mello Keehl said:
So you was gambling in the game with fake money you bough with real money to earn more fake money?

lol

I don't partake in any vices.

EDarkness said:
Isn't this still unavailable to children? I worked at a prominent developer of a casino game and we couldn't let people under 18 play the game. If we found out that the account was used/owned by a minor we had to ban them. The whole game was mostly contained, in that current won at the craps or poker table was only able to be used in the game store, but we didn't make any bones about whether or not the game was gambling. It was treated as such internally and there were many debates about whether or not the government would get involved at some point. Since tokens could be purchased with real money, this was always a thing we had to deal with. Honestly, I'm not sure what the legal rules are for this, though.

The game is rated T for Teen, it's readily available to download and play on Steam. Buying doubloons is tied to an account, but that could easily be justified as "I needed some PoE to buy a ship and don't have the time to earn it in-game."

WaterAstro · Oct 17, 2017

It becomes real gambling when you can actually win money, or something of monetary value, after betting money.

AYF 001 · Oct 17, 2017

WaterAstro said:
It becomes real gambling when you can actually win money, or something of monetary value, after betting money.

I mean, doesn't that technically make it worse than gambling? With slot machines at least you can walk away with something, but with virtual items, it's basically throwing money into a void in exchange for a dopamine fix.

EDarkness · Oct 17, 2017

FrankCanada97 said:
The game is rated T for Teen, it's readily available to download and play on Steam. Buying doubloons is tied to an account, but that could easily be justified as "I needed some PoE to buy a ship and don't have the time to earn it in-game."

Like I said, I don't know what the actual legal situation is, but this is much like the game I worked on at the game company I was with and we didn't allow kids to play even though it was pretty much the same as this. It was considered gambling internally and handled that way. In my personal opinion, I think it's gambling. The idea of putting something into something to TRY and get something of relative value back would be gambling in my eyes. The government hasn't defined gambling as such (which is why there's so much debate about it these days), but I wonder if the dictionary definition of "gambling" is clearer. It's obvious that the powers that be have a more flexible view of what gambling is.

Metal B · Oct 17, 2017

WaterAstro said:
It becomes real gambling when you can actually win money, or something of monetary value, after betting money.

The point of the OP is that "real gambling" and "simulated gambling" have the same consequences and create the same kind of dangerous addiction. Only with "real gambling" you at least have the chance of winning something with value, which makes the fall not as hard.

Clearly the "I can win back my real life losses" attitude and dreaming of a better life through winning, makes "real gambling" much more tempting. But there is just a thin line between them ... So why is one side legal for teens.

nynt9 · Oct 17, 2017

AYF 001 said:
I mean, doesn't that technically make it worse than gambling? With slot machines at least you can walk away with something, but with virtual items, it's basically throwing money into a void in exchange for a dopamine fix.

In real gambling its beyond a dopamine fix, its the promise of winning money and cancelling out all your losses. Theres actual money at the end. So youre more incentivized to play than just a dopamine fix. Actual desperation and livelihood comes into play.

Metal B · Oct 17, 2017

nynt9 said:
In real gambling its beyond a dopamine fix, its the promise of winning money and cancelling out all your losses. Theres actual money at the end. So youre more incentivized to play than just a dopamine fix. Actual desperation and livelihood comes into play.

The question should not be, if one thing is worst or as worst as the other. But is it close enough, that it should also be restricted.

FrankCanada97 · Oct 18, 2017

EDarkness said:
Like I said, I don't know what the actual legal situation is, but this is much like the game I worked on at the game company I was with and we didn't allow kids to play even though it was pretty much the same as this. It was considered gambling internally and handled that way. In my personal opinion, I think it's gambling. The idea of putting something into something to TRY and get something of relative value back would be gambling in my eyes. The government hasn't defined gambling as such (which is why there's so much debate about it these days), but I wonder if the dictionary definition of "gambling" is clearer. It's obvious that the powers that be have a more flexible view of what gambling is.

How did the game you worked on present itself? As you can see from the following screen, the developers of Puzzle Pirates obviously made it kid-friendly or at least for mass appeal.

I guess I'm also hung up on the juxtaposition of the presentation and the presence of a serious gambling card game in poker.

nynt9 · Oct 18, 2017

Metal B said:
The question should not be, if one thing is worst or as worst as the other. But is it close enough, that it should also be restricted.

Being able to make money from something vs not seems like a HUGE difference.

Metal B · Oct 18, 2017

nynt9 said:
Being able to make money from something vs not seems like a HUGE difference.

But the problem isn't making money, it's about people getting caught in a destructive addiction, which could ruin somebody's life more directly.

It seen to me, that any form of gambling mechanics are fine, as long as the person can also pay with time and he doesn't get a real life reward.

So is this still okay or do we let companies exploit weak-minded people? It's really a thin line and of course just because a few get caught in that spiral, we should not ruin the fun for anybody else and instead help those unfortunate ones getting a hold of their addiction.

WaterAstro · Oct 18, 2017

AYF 001 said:
I mean, doesn't that technically make it worse than gambling? With slot machines at least you can walk away with something, but with virtual items, it's basically throwing money into a void in exchange for a dopamine fix.

No, because you can't solve your money problems with virtual games.

The idea that you'll win big at slots or anything at the casino is what keeps gambling addicts in the game, and the house always wins the odds.

Metal B said:
The point of the OP is that "real gambling" and "simulated gambling" have the same consequences and create the same kind of dangerous addiction. Only with "real gambling" you at least have the chance of winning something with value, which makes the fall not as hard.

Clearly the "I can win back my real life losses" attitude and dreaming of a better life through winning, makes "real gambling" much more tempting. But there is just a thin line between them ... So why is one side legal for teens.

I like playing GTA or shooters or whatever violent game. It doesn't mean I'm addicted to killing people.

The incentive of winning money has to be there for it to be a gambling addiction. If that incentive isn't there, it's some other kind of addiction.

EDarkness · Oct 18, 2017

FrankCanada97 said:
How did the game you worked on present itself? As you can see from the following screen, the developers of Puzzle Pirates obviously made it kid-friendly or at least for mass appeal.

I guess I'm also hung up on the juxtaposition of the presentation and the presence of a serious gambling card game in poker.

The game was presented as a casino or casino type atmosphere. There were characters walking around like the pic you showed, but it had a more "adult" vibe to it. Though, that was mainly for accessibility and the idea of bringing in folks who don't play video games at all. A vast majority of the playerbase for that game weren't gamers and many of them old folks. Of course, I'm painting this picture in broad strokes, but I'm not sure how much I can say so I'm being a bit general. It's possible that things have changed as it's been a couple of years since I've worked there.

In my opinion, I don't think presentation matters that much. The end goal is still the same, I think. The folks working on the game I was working on were trying to be relatively responsible even if they didn't really have to be.

WaterAstro said:
The incentive of winning money has to be there for it to be a gambling addiction. If that incentive isn't there, it's some other kind of addiction.

I don't think it matters what you're gambling on...it's still gambling addiction. Whether you win money or not.

TheBryanJZX90 · Oct 18, 2017

EDarkness said:
Simulated or not, the behavior it creates is the same. At least with casino gambling in Vegas you can maybe get your money back.

No see the fact that you even think "well at least you can maybe get your money back" shows why actual gambling is on a different level. Because on average no, you will not get your money back, the house will win. But gamblers still think that they will be the statistical anomaly that can win. No matter how good a videogame developer hooks people in to their RNG dopamine machine, no one in the game is playing while thinking they might get their money back. They know every dollar they put in is gone.

FrankCanada97 · Oct 18, 2017

TheBryanJZX90 said:
No see the fact that you even think "well at least you can maybe get your money back" shows why actual gambling is on a different level. Because on average no, you will not get your money back, the house will win. But gamblers still think that they will be the statistical anomaly that can win. No matter how good a videogame developer hooks people in to their RNG dopamine machine, no one in the game is playing while thinking they might get their money back. They know every dollar they put in is gone.

What if they are playing the game thinking they might get their fake money back? And when they inevitably don't, they resort to spending more real money to keep gambling with the fake money.

HeresSomeWeapons · Oct 18, 2017

FrankCanada97 said:
There is no way to actually cashout PoE into doubloons and then into real money. I guess that technically makes it "simulated gambling" instead of "real gambling".

There's your answer.

Imbarkus · Oct 18, 2017

You don't really need to reach this far into an obscure MMO (sorry no offense intended) to find more overt examples of what you're talking about. "Social gaming" is a huge industry right now, and it is essentially flash-based (for now?) and mobile-app based casino games with a possible buy-in of real money for space bux, but no potential for cash out.

You can see me streaming some of Hit it Rich! here.

These games use the same game themes as actual slots and casino games, maybe even the same game logic, who can tell? They are frequented by actual gamblers, that's who, so they must be fairly close.

Being an app, available in an app store without an age gate, these are available to all ages. They are not gambling because there is no potential to get cash out of the system. They are buy-in only, and so you are essentially exchanging money for some form of digital entertainment, regardless of what it is simulating or how directly. You don't have to buy anything, either... daily bonuses, wait for the timer, invite your friends... you know the drill

Now, as for what we call "games," we may all have our gualms about what constitutes "simulated gambling" when it comes to loot boxes and the recent declarations by the US and European ratings boards. I know I do, since I find the visceral experience of loot boxes to be more akin to scratch tickets or the wheel of fortune than I do baseball cards. But, that's me, and there being so much lack of clarity on this point make me believe that bundling loot boxes into a trigger of a rating of "simulated gambling" just fails to communicate clearly anyway.

As consumers, we need to be clear and not sensational about our complaints. For me, the issue with loot boxes is that we know longer are being told what we are buying up front, with up front pricing. So, even though we bought the game, additional game progress is not available and is locked behind a grind of either time or money. For me, some sort of warning to this effect is more in order. I suggest we make it one that's also a secret tribute to Kojima:

If our complaint is that every game is a Playable Teaser now for microtransactions, with deceptive pricing models hidden behind random number generators, allowing us to endlessly drop revenue against a declining sense of value... that may have a lot in common with the experience of gambling for certain people, but that doesn't make it gambling.

CASH OUT is what distinguishes real gambling. It's the whole reason why the casino industry is strictly monitored to prevent money laundering--the primary focus of the US federal government's regulation of the industry. Everything is else is just Digital Doodads as a Service...

...unless we reach a future where digital money and real money lose their distinction via cryptocurrency, skins and places in digital worlds become the possessions people focus on primarily as where they place and hold their value, and "all bets are off," as it were. Probably come sooner than we think, actually.

Acerac · Oct 18, 2017

pswii60 said:
Indeed, if loot boxes are gambling, then so were Pokémon trading cards back in the 90s.

Exactly, I can trade or sell the contents of any loot crate I open just like I could my Pokemon cards.

Rite guyz?

David___ · Oct 18, 2017

Acerac said:
Exactly, I can trade or sell the contents of any loot crate I open just like I could my Pokemon cards.

Rite guyz?

Being able to sell Pokemon cards for real money puts it closer to actual gambling than loot boxes, if anything it pushes loot boxes away from the fact

Deepwater · Oct 18, 2017

From what I understand, simulated gambling has to include actual depictions of traditional casino-like environments. And if you search on the ESRB website, https://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.aspx, there are tons of E, E10 and T games that have simulated gambling descriptions and the common denominator seems to be implementations of casino or casino-like environments.

Kids weren't getting addicted to the game corners in Pokemon Gold. Nor in Harvest Moon, etc. And they could easily walk in their local store and pick up an actual game of wage-setting table/casino games as most of them are T-for-Teen games as well.

Now if you're making a case for "what should be" rather than "what is", we'd have to retroactively go back and apply this logic to things like trading cards, especially if we're using the "kids will fall prey to exploitative addiction!" rhetoric. And as long as the primary means of acquiring the currency being used can be acquired in game, it'll stay simulated gambling.

But ultimately, the key factor here is, is that with things like lootboxes you always receive something back. That doesn't happen in actual casinos ANYWHERE. Not in bingo, not at the slots, not at the tables, not at the scratch off, not at any of the things we currently consider to be actually gambling.

Razgriz-Specter · Oct 18, 2017

If Supply Drops for example had a chance of dropping nothing or not getting anything from repeats.

Imbarkus · Oct 18, 2017

The only digital loot box/gambling system that has crossed the line has been any of the CSGO or DOTA skins market that has been sold for real money on the grey market.

Valve has issued cease-and-desist letters to certain sites that were culpable here (whole other Oprah, that) but arguably it's the ability to trade skins and digital items among accounts that opens up the potential for abuse as "real gambling."

Criminals and terrorist enterprises are willing to pay the "hold percentage" fee of a real gambling enterprise in order to wash money, exchanging it for other money, making it untraceable. That's where regulation comes in, mostly, when it comes to adults and gambling.

As to parental warnings and "simulated gambling," I don't really think these "social gambling" apps I mentioned have to come with any warning other than "in-app purchases," if I'm not mistaken, making the retail ESRB-rated video game industry actually way more proactive in warning parents about "simulated gambling" then the mobile/Facebook gaming industry is at present. This is why I contend loot boxes is actually a separate issue, needs to be referred to separately and distinctly.

Funny, just under thirty years ago I first learned black jack playing Casino on my Atari 2600. "Simulated gambling" has been part of the industry forever, really. It is not really what has changed: purchasable progression with a hidden price tag, is what has been added.

Deepwater said:
But ultimately, the key factor here is, is that with things like lootboxes you always receive something back. That doesn't happen in actual casinos ANYWHERE. Not in bingo, not at the slots, not at the tables, not at the scratch off, not at any of the things we currently consider to be actually gambling.

Yet, more to the point from a regulatory prospective, you receive nothing back at all. No CASH OUT.

2+2=5 · Oct 18, 2017

The ERSB classification seems reasonable to me, it just needs to take into account fictional currency paid with real money.
Obviously patches should respect the classification.

Z3M0G · Oct 18, 2017

AYF 001 said:
I mean, doesn't that technically make it worse than gambling? With slot machines at least you can walk away with something, but with virtual items, it's basically throwing money into a void in exchange for a dopamine fix.

Virtual items have monetary value. Everyone may not agree with that, but it's very well solidified in all lines of business now. Digital games, Digital Movies, Digital TV, Digital Books, etc etc etc

Mihael Mello Keehl · Oct 18, 2017

thefil said:
I was in Japan recently and this is huge there. We spent $80 in about 3 hours on "medal" games where you buy medals which you can gamble in machines. AFAIK there is no way to cash out your medals.

That said, Monster Hunter Medal Hunting G is super fun.

FrankCanada97 said:
I don't partake in any vices.

The game is rated T for Teen, it's readily available to download and play on Steam. Buying doubloons is tied to an account, but that could easily be justified as "I needed some PoE to buy a ship and don't have the time to earn it in-game."

This hilarious lol.. Why??

AYF 001 said:
I mean, doesn't that technically make it worse than gambling? With slot machines at least you can walk away with something, but with virtual items, it's basically throwing money into a void in exchange for a dopamine fix.

Yeah too me.. this is worse than gambling. You get nothing at all of any value. Maybe fun? But since its gambling you have a high chance to lose. Yougetnothing.gif

Qwark · Oct 18, 2017

thefil said:
I was in Japan recently and this is huge there. We spent $80 in about 3 hours on "medal" games where you buy medals which you can gamble in machines. AFAIK there is no way to cash out your medals.

That said, Monster Hunter Medal Hunting G is super fun.

I haven't been to Japan myself, but I've heard about these places where you can win prizes like this, then you go around the corner where there's an "unaffiliated" shop that will buy your medals/whatever for real money. Skirts gambling laws and supposedly connected to Yakuza.

BTHR Zero X · Oct 18, 2017

The moment a game asked for real cash in exchange for in game currency for a CHANCE of anything that is Gambling for me. Even if it pays out with an Item I did not really want or need, I took the risk to pay money to try and get a return.

That is Gambling to a T.

Ninja Scooter · Oct 18, 2017

When you can cash out.

Solidus187 · Oct 18, 2017

FrankCanada97 said:
Here is where things become unclear. There is no way to actually cashout PoE into doubloons and then into real money.

If you ask me, that's where things become very clear. If you can't cash-out, it's not gambling. You're just paying to be able to play the poker mini-game more without grinding, like buying in-game currency in any other game to power up your character or whatever.

Acerac · Oct 18, 2017

David___ said:
Being able to sell Pokemon cards for real money puts it closer to actual gambling than loot boxes, if anything it pushes loot boxes away from the fact

Fair enough.

Seems like a good reason for people to stop using at an example for things that aren't gambling.

Ninja Scooter · Oct 18, 2017

Acerac said:
Fair enough.

Seems like a good reason for people to stop using at an example for things that aren't gambling.

Pokémon cards are not gambling because the monetary value isn't guaranteed as part of what you get when you buy a pack. Whatever money a card is worth is determined by the secondary market and is between you and the person you are selling it to or buying it from.

Acerac · Oct 18, 2017

Ninja Scooter said:
Pokémon cards are not gambling because the monetary value isn't guaranteed as part of what you get when you buy a pack. Whatever money a card is worth is determined by the secondary market and is between you and the person you are selling it to or buying it from.

Interesting, I didn't realize that if items being gambled didn't have a strict value assigned to them it didn't count as gambling. I always thought gambling was just a game of chance that required a buy in.

Curse you dictionary definitions for being wrong once again.

bchan555 · Oct 18, 2017

Acerac said:
Interesting, I didn't realize that if items being gambled didn't have a strict value assigned to them it didn't count as gambling. I always thought gambling was just a game of chance that required a buy in.

Curse you dictionary definitions for being wrong once again.

It's because any monetary card a value is given is based completely on a third party.

Imagine you had one of those bouncy ball vending machines that cost a quarter. There are three types of balls inside: red, blue, and yellow. You put in money and get a red one. Your friend puts in money and gets a blue one.

Your local hobby stores says "hey! I'll buy red balls for 25 cents. I'll buy blue balls for 20 dollars."

Now all of a sudden blue balls are super valuable! People rush to use the vending machine as much as possible in hope of getting a blue ball.

None of this, however, has anything to do with the company that made the vending machine. All they promised is that if you put in 25 cents you would get a ball. The resale value of that ball on some other third party market is completely irrelevant to them and has nothing to do with them. What craziness people get up to on their own time is their own business.

With Pokemon cards, the only thing they are promising you is that you will get cards to play the game. The whole idea that good cards cost a lot of money, or any money at all, is based completely on the secondary market that Wizards of the Coast/Nintendo does not control, and they certainly wouldn't be responsible for it.

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