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Vox: Panic is setting in on the left.

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
there are people who do that but for the most part you're misrepresenting a complex argument

but it's you so that's not a surprise

And there are people in the current Dem establishment who have similar complex thoughts and a fair number of actual racists. This level of "hur dur the racists are in the opposition" snark I'm seeing all around social media is goddamn annoying
 
There is no struggle but the struggle of class against class.

tenor.gif
 

kirblar

Member
there are people who do that but for the most part you're misrepresenting a complex argument

but it's you so that's not a surprise
I'm not misrepresenting anything. If you believe and argue that all issues regarding minorities are actually class issues, you're efffectively whitewashing and silencing large swaths of people and telling them that their concerns are invalid.

Class issues are not why many people want to deny women abortions.

Class issues are not why many white people are terrified of people w/ darker skin.

Class issues are not why many people are disgusted w/ me making out w/ another dude.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
There is no struggle but the struggle of class against class.

This is true only if we also accept that classes are complex entities that are economically constrained but feature further divisions. There are classes on the same economic strata that are still in genuine opposition like, say, white rural evangelicals against urban black christians
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Do you think the problem with Democrats right now is that they focus too much on identity politics? Because I've seen three different people saying that cross my feed like, this week

The problem with the Democratic leadership is that they are beholden to their donors over their constituency.
 

Lime

Member
No I see a lot of leftists who think that we need to downplay identity politics to run on economic populism. Like, everyone needs to clean house on this

maybe we're all in our own filter bubbles by now, but you should check out leftist/socialist people of color, transpeople, and the wide breadth of academics and scholars who've been touting social-democratic/socialist economic policies in conjunction with racial and gendered and LGBTQ policies.

If you still doubt how class matters in the analysis of e.g. race, check out Angela Davis, bell hooks, Patricia Hill Collins, Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, @prisonculture, just to name a few. These all champion what you might call "economic populism" via intersectional premises.

Do you think the problem with Democrats right now is that they focus too much on identity politics? Because I've seen three different people saying that cross my feed like, this week

Not sure who you are following, but the problem with the Democrats (at least the centrist part of it) is that their economic policies (not to speak of their actual milquetoast white liberal attempts at identity politics) does not help the poor and lower-middle class (if not screws them over). At least that's the leftist criticisms of the party
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
maybe we're all in our own filter bubbles by now, but you should check out leftist/socialist people of color, transpeople, and the wide breadth of academics and scholars who've been touting social-democratic/socialist economic policies in conjunction with racial and gendered and LGBTQ policies.

If you still doubt how class matters in the analysis of race, check out Angela Davis, bell hooks, Patricia Hill Collins, just to name a few. These all champion what you might call "economic populism".
I don't doubt that class matters in the analysis of race! I am tired of people who deny that race matters in the analysis of class!
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
That's a problem with any party and any candidate getting elected today. It's not a party issue and can't be addressed as one.

Its a larger problem for Democratic voters specifically because the donors to the Democratic Party are oftentimes the same donors to the Republican Party.
 

aeolist

Banned
I'm not misrepresenting anything. If you believe and argue that all issues regarding minorities are actually class issues, you're efffectively whitewashing and silencing large swaths of people and telling them that their concerns are invalid.

Class issues are not why many people want to deny women abortions.

Class issues are not why many white people are terrified of people w/ darker skin.

Class issues are not why many people are disgusted w/ me making out w/ another dude.

that is all true but the means of combating racism, sexism, homophobia, and other bigotries is what we're talking about. the centrist argues for legal reform and empathy, the leftist argues for class solidarity.

the latter argument (presented by a black community organizer) is well represented here: https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/episode-113-hit-and-run-feat-rl-stephens-53117

legal protections for minorities are good and necessary and we should not stop talking about them, but it's not enough. we need a fundamental restructuring of society if we're actually going to fix any of this, anything short of that is a band-aid and will eventually see us concede ground to reactionaries like we did last year.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
that is all true but the means of combating racism, sexism, homophobia, and other bigotries is what we're talking about. the centrist argues for legal reform and empathy, the leftist argues for class solidarity.

the latter argument (presented by a black community organizer) is well represented here: https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/episode-113-hit-and-run-feat-rl-stephens-53117

legal protections for minorities are good and necessary and we should not stop talking about them, but it's not enough. we need a fundamental restructuring of society if we're actually going to fix any of this, anything short of that is a band-aid and will eventually see us concede ground to reactionaries like we did last year.
I used to believe in class solidarity. I don't anymore. The poor white man does not stand with the poor black man, and if you think that he will he will stab you in the back as soon as he gets a chance because he's deserving and the blacks are not. I'm working through Strangers in their Own Land right now, which is a look at the Tea Party among the working and lower classes in Lousiana, and there's a lot of good stuff in there that might be able to be wrangled into a class struggle except that every few pages, again and again it pops up, that they don't want to share with "welfare queens" in the "cities". Like clockwork.

Democratic socialism is popular among white people for white people.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Its a larger problem for Democratic voters specifically because the donors to the Democratic Party are oftentimes the same donors to the Republican Party.

And vice versa? There's no monopoly here. The system needs to be fixed and the parties can't do it on their own.
 
that is all true but the means of combating racism, sexism, homophobia, and other bigotries is what we're talking about. the centrist argues for legal reform and empathy, the leftist argues for class solidarity.

the latter argument (presented by a black community organizer) is well represented here: https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/episode-113-hit-and-run-feat-rl-stephens-53117

legal protections for minorities are good and necessary and we should not stop talking about them, but it's not enough. we need a fundamental restructuring of society if we're actually going to fix any of this, anything short of that is a band-aid and will eventually see us concede ground to reactionaries like we did last year.

How would one fundamentally restructure society?
 
Reading reactions, I'm not even sure people here have shared definitions of centrism, liberalism or leftism tbh, which does illustrate a certain level of panic that's quick to turn into anthropophagy.

At least, if centrists are anti-"identity politics", that means Clinton wasn't one.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
And vice versa? There's no monopoly here. The system needs to be fixed and the parties can't do it on their own.
When legal bribes are made to each party the donors are not going "Let the best person win." That money is to make sure the recipient either pushes their agenda or stands aside.
 
i'm shocked that the three toddlers in a suit candidate didn't win by talking about lowering the deficit and complaining about Trump in a district he won.

Democrats were idiots to spend so much money in the race and they need to stop targeting "sensible" republicans. They don't exist and it only keeps the party to the right.

How are you going to make a country outright hostile to socialism accept socialism?

Bernie's the most popular politican in the country and a growing majority of young people don't have the adverse reaction to socialism that their parents did. Tide's (slowly) changing, my friend.
 

kirblar

Member
Do you think the problem with Democrats right now is that they focus too much on identity politics? Because I've seen three different people saying that cross my feed like, this week
The problem with the Democratic leadership is that they are beholden to their donors over their constituency.
https://www.voterstudygroup.org/reports/2016-elections/political-divisions-in-2016-and-beyond
In both parties, the donor class is both more conservative on economic issues and more liberal on social issues, as compared to the rest of the party
...so yes?
that is all true but the means of combating racism, sexism, homophobia, and other bigotries is what we're talking about. the centrist argues for legal reform and empathy, the leftist argues for class solidarity.

the latter argument (presented by a black community organizer) is well represented here: https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/episode-113-hit-and-run-feat-rl-stephens-53117

legal protections for minorities are good and necessary and we should not stop talking about them, but it's not enough. we need a fundamental restructuring of society if we're actually going to fix any of this, anything short of that is a band-aid and will eventually see us concede ground to reactionaries like we did last year.
You can't get class solidarity when a majority of white people don't want it.
 

Sulik2

Member
We just turned an R+20 district into an R+4 district. TIME TO PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are two ways to look at this:

1) The bluewave is building and means a bunch of districts are in play that wouldn't normally be possible to win.

2) The bluewave is in full effect, but GOP money, gerrymandering and voter suppresion are enough to counter it and maintain power.

With 5 special elections lost after huge margin gains I'm starting to lean towards #2, the bluewave not being enough to overcome the GOP's advantages.
 

Lime

Member
I don't doubt that class matters in the analysis of race! I am tired of people who deny that race matters in the analysis of class!

Right, so why should anyone ignore or defend the failed economic policies of the Democrats & centrists when they keep running their heads against the wall with their bougie perspectives on class?

(And I would go further and say that their identity politics likewise are not radical enough to what needs be done, but that's another discussion).

And people who deny that other identity categories don't matter don't have a clue about what they're talking about. That's not what's being criticized in this case and people who think like this should not be wasted time on.
 

aeolist

Banned
How are you going to make a country outright hostile to socialism accept socialism?

build class solidarity.

it's not an easy answer, obviously we're in a bad place right now. i just think that technocratic legalistic center-left governance has failed us completely and real leftism is the only way forward. it's that or barbarism, because we're on an unsustainable course right now with one party wanting to make things far worse and the other wanting to make them less bad. it will reach a breaking point eventually.
 

NandoGip

Member
Democrat politicians think the key to winning is by changing their message to appeal to Trump supporters.

So fuckin dumb.

When Republicans were out of power, did they win by changing their message to be softer on abortion and gun rights? Obviously not.
 

kirblar

Member
There are two ways to look at this:

1) The bluewave is building and means a bunch of districts are in play that wouldn't normally be possible to win.

2) The bluewave is in full effect, but GOP money, gerrymandering and voter suppresion are enough to counter it and maintain power.

With 5 special elections lost after huge margin gains I'm starting to lean towards #2, the bluewave not being enough to overcome the GOP's advantages.
In both the run up to the '06 and '10 waves, the Dems/GOP respectively lost special elections in the runup. It ended up not mattering in either case.
 

Steel

Banned
There are two ways to look at this:

1) The bluewave is building and means a bunch of districts are in play that wouldn't normally be possible to win.

2) The bluewave is in full effect, but GOP money, gerrymandering and voter suppresion are enough to counter it and maintain power.

With 5 special elections lost after huge margin gains I'm starting to lean towards #2, the bluewave not being enough to overcome the GOP's advantages.

If you think that every republican district had the margins GA6 and the other special election districts had before the special election you're very mistaken. Gerrymandering is used to dilute the votes of the other party, so the margins are tangible, but not 20 points.
 
There are two ways to look at this:

1) The bluewave is building and means a bunch of districts are in play that wouldn't normally be possible to win.

2) The bluewave is in full effect, but GOP money, gerrymandering and voter suppresion are enough to counter it and maintain power.

With 5 special elections lost after huge margin gains I'm starting to lean towards #2, the bluewave not being enough to overcome the GOP's advantages.

If the special election margins hold in 2018 (or increase!) there's plenty of seats to win back the House. The gains in the last few months were sufficient to take the house in 2018, if applied through all races (which obviously won't happen, but there's enough seats for the majority to still be entirely possible and even likely)

Gerrymandered districts don't have margins of +20. Usually it's like +5-8

Democrat politicians think the key to winning is by changing their message to appeal to Trump supporters.

So fuckin dumb.

When Republicans were out of power, did they win by changing their message to be softer on abortion and gun rights? Obviously not.

Who are these Democrat politicians that are saying these things

This is like the 9th time this exact statement has been posted, and yet... where are the examples?
 

KHarvey16

Member
When legal bribes are made to each party the donors are not going "Let the best person win." That money is to make sure the recipient either pushes their agenda or stands aside.

And? I don't understand how that argues against the assertion any one party cannot solve the problem on its own through policy or leadership.

i'm shocked that the three toddlers in a suit candidate didn't win by talking about lowering the deficit and complaining about Trump in a district he won.

Democrats were idiots to spend so much money in the race and they need to stop targeting "sensible" republicans. They don't exist and it only keeps the party to the right.

Idiots? Lol. They forced the republicans to spend money on what should have been a safe race and damn near won it. It was a big gain and was worth the effort.
 
Damn, some truth there for many centrists i believe.

Because there are lot of centrists that are a 'disguised' right, just the right with a softer face, trying to present themselves a bit more modern and with the times.
So when push comes to shove, they strongly prefer to ally with the right, not with the left.
 

Josh7289

Member
People need to see a real alternative in the Democratic Party, not just Republican-lite.

People need to want to vote for Democratic candidates for them to actually win elections.
 

rjinaz

Member
Socialist programs are among the most popular in the country.

True, but many (most?) of them came to be before what the Republicans have come to be. They are not going to let anymore socialist programs through, and the American people are good at not counting the socialist programs that currently exist as socialist thanks to GOP rhetoric. AKA the Republicans have mastered getting people to vote against their own interest by fear of the liberal boogeyman coming to take their jobs or introduce them to Satan.
 

y2dvd

Member
Ossaf's campaign ads were terrible. The whole Twitter shtick was cringe worthy. Every other ad, I'd mistake him for a Republican.
 
Let's say Dems are able to match on average Ossoff's increase in votes from the last midterm election...

Not many Republicans can survive a 100% increase in Democratic votes.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Right, so why should anyone ignore or defend the failed economic policies of the Democrats & centrists when they keep running their heads against the wall with their bougie perspectives on class?

(And I would go further and say that their identity politics likewise are not radical enough to what needs be done, but that's another discussion).

And people who deny that other identity categories don't matter don't have a clue about what they're talking about. That's not what's being criticized in this case and people who think like this should not be wasted time on.
This is less about "defending current policies" and more being frustrated with the people who think that socialism is secretly popular and energizing in the US. There is zero evidence for that. This country is packed to the gills with hateful, racist, conservative people and although we outnumber them barely they will grab us at the neck at every turn and we cannot find solidarity with these people, which sucks, because we would need to to have a class revolution.
 

KHarvey16

Member
There are two ways to look at this:

1) The bluewave is building and means a bunch of districts are in play that wouldn't normally be possible to win.

2) The bluewave is in full effect, but GOP money, gerrymandering and voter suppresion are enough to counter it and maintain power.

With 5 special elections lost after huge margin gains I'm starting to lean towards #2, the bluewave not being enough to overcome the GOP's advantages.

Those special elections were lost in heavy R favorite districts. If the numbers hold a ton of seats fall under that margin.

Also Dems have won a couple.
 
I've wondered lately if the burgeoning crisis of partisanship will lead to a legitimate third party. That you'll have the further populist left either take over the Democratic party (just as the further populist right took over the Republican party in 2016), and then the remainder -- centrist Democrats and centrist Republicans will coalesce as a new or rebranded party along the center.

Without demonizing centrists, populists, or purist leftists, there are real, practical divisions between the further-left and the centrist-left. The centrist-left (think, mainstream, "law and order" or big-labor democrats) would have seen eye-to-eye with the further-left 15 years ago, but now there is real division just as there was with the Republican party 10 years ago, when the Tea Party rejected neoconservatism, and eventually resettled on Trump's brand of xenophobic traditionalist populism, while the 1990s and 2000's neoconservatives have since moved towards argumentatively siding with centrist Democrats (the Jonah Goldbergs, Bill Kristols, and David Frums of the former Republican party). Meanwhile, while centrist Democrats have felt quizicly blind-sided by more puritanical left Democrats, the more puritanical left legitimately not describes centrist Democrats with terms that used to only be used for Republicans and Conservatives: Racists, classists, gross, misogynists, war-mongers, etc; you're seeing an intra-ideological rift and vitriol ("just die already you old bitch" is something that I read from liberals talking about Nancy Pelosi) that you hadn't seen before on the American left....... But something you did see within the American right starting in 2006. While mainstream, closer-to-the-center Republicans wanted to become more inclusive after 2012, successful Republicans doubled-down on economic populism, isolationism, xenophobia, and selective libertarianism, and created a new far right in Congress that didn't exist from 1980 - 2010, and ultimately won a shocking White House victory in 2016.

Some people from all political stripes have often made appeals to "I wish the US had a legitimate 3rd party..." and we always assumed/implied it would be something further left or economically populist. But lately, I think if that 3rd party comes to prominence in the next 30 years, it's going to be on the centrist remains of a Republican/Democrat coalition, as it seems like large portions of the Democratic and Republican parties are convinced (and with good reason) that they can only win elections by pushing out further from the middle.
 

aeolist

Banned
Let's say Dems are able to match on average Ossoff's increase in votes from the last midterm election...

Not many Republicans can survive a 50% increase in Democratic votes.

and what exactly are the democrats going to do when they get back into power? they're largely against single-payer healthcare and going back to obamacare is just going to make them massively unpopular in the next election.

it's all well and good to capitalize on the opposition's screw-ups but without a policy platform that will make people happy it's not a long-term strategy. eventually there will be no more trump to run against.
 

rjinaz

Member
Let's say Dems are able to match on average Ossoff's increase in votes from the last midterm election...

Not many Republicans can survive a 50% increase in Democratic votes.

Yep and there is one more factor to consider. Trump. Trump is going to keep getting worse. I mean he has proven he cannot be reasonable. The election is still relatively fresh. Give another year of Trump to the American people and see how tired they have become of that buffoon and by association, the Republican party.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
And? I don't understand how that argues against the assertion any one party cannot solve the problem on its own through policy or leadership.
There is no desire to change because the leadership does not answer to those wanting change. If the donors wanted a shift in policy it would happen overnight.
 

Daria

Member
Any link? I feel like the vast amount of "the left is in panic mode" articles are hyperbole. I think there is a lot of work to be done but the special election in GA seemed like a great start. A hard fought battle.

I think the Democrats shouldn't use "well we were going to lose anyways" as an excuse, but I don't see how it is now means panic-mode. I like when fire is under the Dem's ass because I think it means they will move closer to the Left and I believe they are understanding that they need to have one voice.

It wasn't a hard fought battle by any means. Ossoff is a centrist Dem just like every modern day Dem and it doesn't cut it anymore. They poured in 30-40 MILLION dollars into a race only to lose and then have their candidate say money is a "problem in politics". Their message has turned to absolute garbage, they run on nothing and they're trying to cater to groups of people who will either a) not vote for them or b) not be offended.

Republicans are grabbing them by the neck and all Dems are doing is asking them to softly let go inbetween their dying breaths.

It still amazes me that people begin to call the Democractic party in America the left, let alone the far left.

people who say this make me have a good laugh. Obama was not left, he was a centrist and a right-leaning warhawk. Sanders was the closest to a left candidate they had but even now he's backtracking on supporting losing candidates and is tarnishing his reputation.

and what exactly are the democrats going to do when they get back into power? they're largely against single-payer healthcare and going back to obamacare is just going to make them massively unpopular in the next election.

it's all well and good to capitalize on the opposition's screw-ups but without a policy platform that will make people happy it's not a long-term strategy. eventually there will be no more trump to run against.

a party that wants to protect america from an authoritarian yet they don't want to be like every other developed country and provide healthcare. they're making their own bed
 
and what exactly are the democrats going to do when they get back into power? they're largely against single-payer healthcare and going back to obamacare is just going to make them massively unpopular in the next election.

it's all well and good to capitalize on the opposition's screw-ups but without a policy platform that will make people happy it's not a long-term strategy. eventually there will be no more trump to run against.

There's a large support for UHC

Single Payer is not the only path to UHC


Btw just so I'm clear you;re not arguing that there's no real difference between the GOP and the dems in power right?
 
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