DAREALGUMMY
Member
Wasn't PS4 a half step?
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Pachter: PS5 to be a half step, release in 2019 with PS4 BC
- Thread starter bitbydeath
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
No. The CPU was disappointing in some ways but the GPU was 10X and RAM was 16X.
I could get silly and say Nvidia claimed back in the day RSX was 1.8TF and therefore the PS4 was no jump at all....
Omega Kirby
Member
Lol no it hasnt
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
According to Wikipedia, the base PS4 PSU has a maximum rating of 250W (230W in the slim). I can't find the number for the PS4 Pro., so I assumed the max. power draw figures on Sony's site are actually profiled max. power consumption.
Nothing I wrote implies that... Also the heatsink on the PS4 is the huge finned metal structure whose very purpose is provide sufficient surface area for heat exchange with the airflow through the unit. Locating the heatsink on top of the chip saves space. The PS3 had to use thermal wick solutions like heatpipes to transfers heat from the two chips to the heatsink, so that it can in turn be transferred to air (and ejected from the system). So a single APU design will always be superior in terms of both cost and complexity of the cooling solution.
Also, not that I'm assuming you're suggesting it, but I highly doubt either Sony or MS will want to go with something as exotic as a vapour chamber solution for cooling in their next consoles... not unless they want to price themselves out of competition with the other.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
In fairly non-exhaustive tests conducted by third parties.
The numbers I quoted are directly from Sony themselves. Whilst based on what you posted (which I'm fully aware of) I personally don't expect "real" console usage to ever approach Sony's max. consumption numbers, I can only assume Sony's numbers are based on controlled stress tests with non-game code to test their cooling systems.
Fundamentally, the discussion about power consumption is as it relates to the design of the next-gen consoles. And so max. TDP target is what is important to console makers. In which case, the actual PS4 power consumption figures aren't all that relevant, since TDP will include design and safety margins well above this. That's essentially what I was pointing out with this post.
Negotiator
Member
Sony's numbers are PSU ratings.
Imagine buying a PC with a 700W PSU. Are you going to reach 700W in real-world gaming usage? Nope, unless you have 3 GPUs in an SLI/CF setup (which does not exist in consoles).
Console APUs should be 75-100W at most.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
The PS4 PSU is rated at 250W (230W for the slim). Yet on Sony's site they quote 165 W maximum power consumption.
???
Shin
Banned
Came across something interesting Matt said in Microsoft revenue thread that stuck out and might worth considering as to when we will see a PS5.
What I make of the first quote is that Microsoft is locked in and they will have to ride this generation out at all cost, which is what we pretty much assumed.
At the same time because of that and because Sony is "winning" this generation they have absolutely no reason to release a PS5 earlier than maybe 1 year prior to XB2 launching.
Assuming the latter launches in 2021 then 2020 is where we'll see a PS5 (which lines up with all major components needed, process availability and maturity).
That would still give them a year's head-start, not to mention the whole BC thing in play that's a great sales pitch, more so with the vast library of exclusives PS4 has carrying over.
It works in their favor, more units sold goes hand in hand with more software sold and potentially PS+ sub, all that is just pure bank and they'd get cheaper prices as well on components.
Coming back to what Pachter said about 50% 4K TV adaption rate, PS4 Pro will hold it's ground till a proper next-generation machine is released and the beauty of it = backward compatibility.
To be honest we would be better off with them waiting till 2020 or even 2021 IF it means we get a better machine, be it teraflops, memory, bandwidth or CPU instead of releasing too soon and risk a too big of a difference in raw power with XB2.
What I make of the first quote is that Microsoft is locked in and they will have to ride this generation out at all cost, which is what we pretty much assumed.
At the same time because of that and because Sony is "winning" this generation they have absolutely no reason to release a PS5 earlier than maybe 1 year prior to XB2 launching.
Assuming the latter launches in 2021 then 2020 is where we'll see a PS5 (which lines up with all major components needed, process availability and maturity).
That would still give them a year's head-start, not to mention the whole BC thing in play that's a great sales pitch, more so with the vast library of exclusives PS4 has carrying over.
It works in their favor, more units sold goes hand in hand with more software sold and potentially PS+ sub, all that is just pure bank and they'd get cheaper prices as well on components.
Coming back to what Pachter said about 50% 4K TV adaption rate, PS4 Pro will hold it's ground till a proper next-generation machine is released and the beauty of it = backward compatibility.
To be honest we would be better off with them waiting till 2020 or even 2021 IF it means we get a better machine, be it teraflops, memory, bandwidth or CPU instead of releasing too soon and risk a too big of a difference in raw power with XB2.
Negotiator
Member
The "PS4 slim" (official CUH-2000 series) released in Sep 2016 reduced the rating of the powersupply to 165W
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_technical_specifications#Power_usage
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I think you are little mixed up. The 250W PSU PS4 was the OG or Fat version. This was iterated on with the CUH-1200 model that reduced the PSU requirement to 230W (mainly because they halved the GDDR5 chips IIRC)
The PS4 slim has the 165W PSU.
What we need is an expert in PSUs to tell us Sony are just misusing a phrase and they really are just mixing up power consumption with the maximum the power the PSU can supply.
Shin
Banned
Sounds about right the original had 16x512MB chips (1.5v each), Slim is 8x1GB (1.5v each, 12v saved = 24 watts).
Others have pointed out that various models of the PS4 have reduced demands on the PSU and the power supply used has been tweaked correspondingly. It's also worth noting that power supplies are invariably more efficient when not pushed anywhere near their limits. That means that a larger power supply will often generate less heat with the same load than a power supply that doesn't have as much headroom.
Negotiator
Member
What's strange is that XBOX ONE X will have a 245W PSU. There's no way it's going to consume 120W only. It should be closer to 190-200W.
geordiemp
Member
Think of it like a porsche running at 165 mph. but the porsche is rated to 250 mph but it never goes there, depends how you rate the max power .....but its only consumption thats important.
Anyway, have we got any other gossip yet ?
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Lol, brain fart...
(Note to self: sometimes it pays to do more than skim read the article)
Cheers for the correction gents.
Carry on
THE:MILKMAN
Member
It is odd. Microsoft do have a history of doing it though. I think the 360 had a 203W PSU when it could push close to 180W at launch.
I read that a reason the One X PSU is 245W is Microsoft wanted to avoid using the C14 power inlet which given the 6TF power is most odd to me (if true).
geordiemp said:
Not yet! We deserve another piece of the puzzle I think.
Shin
Banned
I hope that Zen 3 Mobile is just as good (IPC wise) if not faster (base clock speed) or on par with the current Ryzen 7 1700 desktop CPU.
Such a CPU would definitely bring more 60FPS games to the table and it's good enough for VR at 2560 x 1440p and 90FPS.
That along with a 10-12TF machine and that thing is going to sing beyond imagination, especially if we look at what they can do with a mere 1.84TF GPU and lame ass Jaguar.
Such a CPU would definitely bring more 60FPS games to the table and it's good enough for VR at 2560 x 1440p and 90FPS.
That along with a 10-12TF machine and that thing is going to sing beyond imagination, especially if we look at what they can do with a mere 1.84TF GPU and lame ass Jaguar.
Goalus
Member
We will see if it works in their favor.
Sony has yet to prove that they are capable of a seamless backwards compatibility solution. At the same time, Xbox One X is strong enough that it could be viewed as a next-gen console even though it is current-gen. When you look at it this way, MS will have a 2 or 3-year headstart against PS5 because we already know that their generational transition will be seamless. And they can and will release a new Xbox no later than one year after PS5.
So whatever Sony does, whether they are waiting or rushing things with PS5, it will always work in Microsoft's favor, that's how I look at it and therefore I think that releasing Xbox One X at this particular time was a smart decision.
Assuming what you say is true and the most likely scenario seems to be a PS5 in 2020. What should Microsoft do? Being a year behind PS5 and releasing the next Xbox in 2021 seems like a bad idea. Waiting an extra year until 2022 seems like an awful long time from now too though.
Goalus
Member
Why is it a bad idea? Provided that PS5 releases in 2020 or earlier, it seems like a great idea to me (to wait one year).
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
That would be stupid, please Sony do not be stupid...
For what though? What is the point in releasing in 2019? Why would Sony be afraid of Xbox? Xbox is literally in hell right now, and a powerful system is going to do jack shit to save them.
2020 makes so much more sense. There isn't going to be huge demand for an incremental system even from the hardcore dudes in 2019. I know I will be spending my money on a new GPU. My Pro and SSD are just fine.
2020 makes so much more sense. There isn't going to be huge demand for an incremental system even from the hardcore dudes in 2019. I know I will be spending my money on a new GPU. My Pro and SSD are just fine.
geordiemp
Member
Half step of what to where. In TF maybe, but who cares.
Ryzen giving 1.7 IPC improvement and probably same again in clock will give 300 % CPU.
Games like GTA and Witcher at a standard smooth 60 FPS on console with glorious graphics aint no half step.
I believe MOST games will run on Ps4 and ps5, it will just be 30 vs 60 FPS, which most users will jump at in a millisecond.
Next gen TF will be less of an issue, it will be about CPU and frame rates, bandwidth, memory, storage and load times and for me thats 2 big steps.
Shin
Banned
This generation is working in their favor as is, we're long past the point where everything was handed to them on a silver platter I'd say.
Backward compatibility as I remember it was more than fine on PS2 we didn't care much about it then but that's probably because of PS2's library of games.
I don't agree with you that XBOX can be considered a new generation it's far too weak and it's still hamstrung by the same CPU, it's a current gen console.
At some point even Microsoft will have to drop support for the current generation so that's not a head-start that's being late to the party if it plays out as I expect.
Frankly speaking I'd like them to go head to head and be on even grounds and let the best console "win", because from that we'll see price cuts and/or better features.
This "one" man race isn't good at all but Microsoft is locked in, there's nothing they can do but to ride this out and from a point of weakness (though software sales are up).
The general consensus is that PS5 will be the first next generation of consoles, launching PS4 Pro 1 year earlier also gives them more space between that and the PS5's launch.
Where else MS is releasing their iterative console a year later, which might force them to launch later or at least in 2020 at the earliest (that's 3 years after XBOX and simultaneous with PS5).
One year later than PS5 and it will be a repeat of this generation all over again, the implications that could have for XBOX...I don't know man it looks kinda grim IMO.
geordiemp
Member
LOL, no it will not, it has a Jaguar. Any console with Ryzen will run games 3 x faster than Jaguar it will be embarrassing and most quality conscious gamers will move over in a heartbeat.
You are just looking at TF, 4.2 Pro to 6 TF XboxX. That is a 50 % increase in IQ (so what). Ryzen will be a 300 % increase on CPU, console gamers will become 60 FPS snobs and 30 FPS will be very last gen, that includes X and Pro.
I have 2 Ps4 pro, and I knew when I bught them it was for a couple of years until Ryzen hit mainstream consoles and they would be dead. Xb1X will fare no better.
Imagine Witcher or GTA or other big franchise at 4K60. There will be no contest. I actually dont care what the TF of Ps5 will be, 8, 12, 16, on my 55 inch 4K set 2160c looks good enough to me, its more about draw distance and pop in, but give me 60 frames anyday.
I believe Ryzen for console will run all Jaguar games once its customised, BC will be a given to Ps4 and Xb1.
anothertech
Member
It's bad because sales go to the forerunner for a year, and then price drop goes to the forerunner a year later.
History has shown us multiple times that first to market is the better hand played.
Shin
Banned
But is it OLED with HDR doe?
Next gen should be fun to see what they can do with "that" much power and pushing the envelope.
geordiemp
Member
But is it OLED with HDR doe?
Next gen should be fun to see what they can do with "that" much power and pushing the envelope.
Just about to buy a LG C7 to replace my 4K Panny, currently have a 4K panny and W905 sony in same room with 2 ps4 pro.
Even though 905 is only 1080p, it still holds up well next to the 802 4K set.
I really cant see much on my current 4K set past 1440 on pro, so 1800C vs 2160p I dont really care, I notice pop in and LOD much more, and frame rate is king for me now as I believe diminished returns has been reached.
Denial - the post.
You think tech & BC are going to dig MS out of their global irrelevance? Lol.
Shin
Banned
This went over my head though I watched the conference that day...
Zen (14nm) 2017 > Zen refresh (14nm+) 2018 > Zen 2 (7nm) 2018 > Zen 2 refresh (7nm+) 2019 > Zen 3 (7nm+) 2019/2020, doesn't look like Zen 3 will make it in time if PlayStation launches in 2020, it would be a Zen 2 refresh.
Zen (14nm) 2017 > Zen refresh (14nm+) 2018 > Zen 2 (7nm) 2018 > Zen 2 refresh (7nm+) 2019 > Zen 3 (7nm+) 2019/2020, doesn't look like Zen 3 will make it in time if PlayStation launches in 2020, it would be a Zen 2 refresh.
geordiemp
Member
Zen2 at 7nm is everything Ps5 needs, slap in some decent bandwidth and memory and TF will take what space is left and good to go.
Double masking vs EUV is more about number of process steps and fab costs, slight mods in Zen3 maybe upping clock in time for Ps5 pro lol.
After 7nm I can see all the enhancement work in reducing RC and speeding up clocks
Genesis-SNES, Dreamcast-PS2
Shin
Banned
I expect an IPC improvement on Zen2 to be somewhere around 15-20%, AMD seems optimistic/confident in their Zen architecture so maybe they'll surprise us like first Zen.
They also keep emphasizing that they have 2 teams working simultaneously on Zen 2 and Zen 3 because of data centers.
Which leads me to believe that they're heavily invested in the CPU side of the business, looking at what EPYC is doing I can see why.
Zen/AM4 platform will last till 2020 so that makes even more sense as to why they would want improved CPU's out ASAP since it's compatible with current mainboards.
I also believe that given the amount Sony will buy-in that they'll get a nice discount and price/performance, it's beneficial for AMD also and gaming as whole to push Zen.
When games start taking advantage of their 6-8 core CPU's in console space it might have an interesting impact on the PC market, at the very least it gives them a reason to "brag".
Probably worded it horribly, what I meant is that because games will be developed and optimized for 6-8 cores the PC counterparts might reap the benefits as well in the end.
I'd say we'll see a Zen2+ in PS5, I hope they clock it properly and not downclock it or settle for a measly 100Mhz boost like they did with PS4 Pro (especially if PSVR2 will be in play).
As for power consumption I'm not that worried looking at Digital Foundry's tests of the PS4 Pro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wNoCnPxTp4
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
PS4 Pros CPU is about 500 MHz faster not 100 MHz.
Shin
Banned
Base Jaguar is 2.0Ghz it was downclocked to 1.6Ghz on base PS4 and it was overclocked by 130Mhz on PS4 Pro (300Mhz on XBOX).
When they unveil PS5 I hope PlayStation have Jim Keller on their stage to explain what it all means in console space as well as Raja Koduri (if Navi).
Take enough time and explain everything thoroughly as to why people should upgrade, show off demo's PS4/Pro vs PS5 etc etc.
geordiemp
Member
Zen is already 1.7 IPC of Jaguar, and likely will be 3 Ghz, so we are already 3 x faster work rate of a ps4 pro never mind OG ps4 .
So any further small incremental IPC improvements from Zen to Zen 2 to Zen 3 is nothing compared to that of Zen over ANY jaguar.
So really I dont think it matters what stage of Zen we get at 7 nm, Sony would be wise to release as soon as the tech can be ramped at a norml price.
I also think console players will pay $ 499 for a 60 FPS 7 nm beast, its a totally different value proposition than Pro or X so Sony better not skimp.. They can always cut a year later when costs allow.
Shin
Banned
Where did you get the 1.7 from, spot me a link if you can I'd like to read up, AFAIK AMD compared Zen to Excavator (52% IPC boost, don't know about Jaguar).
Any incremental improvement is better than none and maybe they won't be inclined to heavily rely on GPGPU (safe to assume resources is being wasted that way that could be used elsewhere?).
Unrelated but OT: GamingBolt ran a PS5 article some weeks ago they seem to have a video covering the same now as well, it's interesting to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z05dXBo-ZYA
Negotiator
Member
I think geordiemp confuses IPC with single-threaded performance.
Single-threaded performance = IPC x frequency
If you're interested about benchmarks, I suggest to check this out.
Compare Jaguar (1.8 GHz) vs Ryzen (4 GHz) single-threaded performance. Pretty huge jump, right?
But if you normalize frequencies to make a fair comparison (Zen @ 1.8 GHz) you'll see that Zen has a 18% IPC advantage over Jaguar. Not that bad for a shitty uArch, eh?
In other words, if Jaguar could run @ 4 GHz (not possible because of pipeline length IIRC), it would be able to run most AAA games at 60 fps.
GPGPU and multi-threading are not going anywhere.
Game devs that already follow this paradigm shift on the PS4 are going to reap huge benefits on the PS5. Imagine going from 8-core Jaguar to 8-core Zen and utilizing all the available (6-7) cores.
Absolutely not. It was a massive jump over PS3.
geordiemp
Member
No I confuse nothing, Zen is 1.52 IPC of Excavator.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11143...or-under-330-preorder-today-on-sale-march-2nd
You have to dig a bit and juggle a bit of this and that to get excavator vs Jaguar, but in total its about 1.7 x, excavator is much better than Jaguar.
Add add in clock improvements to 3 and 4 Ghz, its not even close. Do you think Intel dominating for so many years on just 20 % lol.
Go look at a die shot of Jaguar and see those tiny little zores compared to Zen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_second
AMD FX-8350 = 2.9 instructions per clock cycle per core (bulldozer)
AMD Ryzen 7 1800X = 10.6 instructions per clock cycle per core (zen)
Negotiator
Member
Excavator is an entirely different uArch and it's less efficient than Jaguar, despite reaching higher frequencies (kinda like the P3 vs P4 comparison, if you get my drift). There's some speculation that inefficiency (less performance/more watts) was the reason it was rejected in current-gen consoles.
How fast would an AMD FX CPU @ 1.8 GHz be? AMD FX-8350 (Piledriver) @ 4 GHz seems to be 50% slower than an 8-core Zen. Now normalize the frequencies and draw your own conclusions. AMD has never said that Zen has 70% better IPC than Jaguar. IPC != single-threaded performance
I gave you a benchmark that demonstrates the IPC difference. If you can find another one to backup your claims, I'm all ears.
Lots of people confuse IPC with single-threaded performance. And of course Zen has the upper hand mainly because of the frequency advantage.
Did you read the part where I was talking about pipeline length? More pipeline stages consume more transistors, which results in a bigger die size (among other things). This is a prerequisite for reaching higher clocks and thus, higher single-threaded performance.
Shin
Banned
One thing is for sure AMD is making great strides with Zen as a whole, I've never had an AMD CPU but something about Zen is swaying me.
Won't go into technical details that I don't understand so I'll leave that discussion for you guys to battle it out, though you probably saw these already.
https://community.amd.com/community...-more-performance-updates-for-ryzen-customers
https://community.amd.com/community...emory-oc-showdown-frequency-vs-memory-timings
It holds up with what users are experiencing, gaming performance has increased apparently, some article wrote it as follows "Ryzen's full potential wasn't unlocked at launch".
While it might not be relevant by the time PS5 is released a new architecture also comes with it's kinks and they are doing a great job ironing it out. Happy for the Red Team TBH.
I do wonder if the usage of GDDR memory would have an effect in any way since it's a lot faster than traditional RAM, thoughts?
Won't go into technical details that I don't understand so I'll leave that discussion for you guys to battle it out, though you probably saw these already.
https://community.amd.com/community...-more-performance-updates-for-ryzen-customers
https://community.amd.com/community...emory-oc-showdown-frequency-vs-memory-timings
It holds up with what users are experiencing, gaming performance has increased apparently, some article wrote it as follows "Ryzen's full potential wasn't unlocked at launch".
While it might not be relevant by the time PS5 is released a new architecture also comes with it's kinks and they are doing a great job ironing it out. Happy for the Red Team TBH.
I do wonder if the usage of GDDR memory would have an effect in any way since it's a lot faster than traditional RAM, thoughts?
geordiemp
Member
Ryse of tomb raider 150 FPS on Ryzen at 1080, I struggle to do 55 on Pro. We are desperate for Ryzen.
As others have mentioned, being second has been bad historically. One year head start on sales and better price flexibility when your rival console launches. It will be interesting to see how well the Xbox One X sells.
I'm still curious what people think Microsoft should do. The general consensus is that they are screwed unless Sony makes a mistake? That can't be right. Maybe they speed up and try and launch something in 2020 to compete with when they think a PS5 will launch? Maybe with aggressive price drops on the Xbox One X they could ride it out until 2022 and release something much more powerful than the PS5?
This is in part I think down to priorities. Prior to PS4 Sony was arguably innovating on the hardware front to get the most performance for the cost - investing heavily in their own chip designs. Combined with relatively low levels of abstraction form the hardware, that makes BC naturally difficult.
MS on the other hand came in from the start with one eye on the living room, and another eye on pushing direct X as a central part of a development toolset. With more of a PC background, perhaps a more abstracted approach, and less pushing custom components, their consoles are easier to support with BC.
I do think that all changes now though. As long as Sony sticks with this x86/APU approach, BC should be relatively trivial to accommodate. And or than ever before it makes bus8ness sense to do so. With the massive increase in digital purchasing this generation providing a strong way to keep consumers on your network, and Sony being by far the market leader, they are in a perfect position to leverage BC to keep their consumers rolling across from PS4 to ps5 and really cement that lead
MS are screwed unless Sony makes a mistake. They already have all those PSN users with large digital libraries that will be willing to wait 'a few months' (which turns into a year) rather than go through the effort of switching Platforms and losing access to their libraries
- if both come out at the same time, and the same price - Sony wins due to brand awareness
- if Sony is a year later to launch - they can Dreamcast MS by starting spoiler marketing early and I think theyd pull it off
Sony would need to fuck up big time to lose IMO. Lack of BC would mean any PS4 user has no reason to stay. Being 2 years late, or massively more expensive may push early adopters away. Dramatically cutting back on first party software investment may also be bad, but this may take longer for the effects to be realised.