Exactly.
The monuments aren't history. Them being removed after last weekend's events? THAT'S history. Folks dying for the cause of standing against the KKK and Nazi sympathizers. That's historic.
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Baltimore removes Confederate Monuments overnight
- Thread starter antonz
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Exactly.
The monuments aren't history. Them being removed after last weekend's events? THAT'S history. Folks dying for the cause of standing against the KKK and Nazi sympathizers. That's historic.
Fairfax Virginia
Neo Member
scrap them to make statues of true heroes.
Angelus Errare
Banned
The argument of needing to keep these statues around so we "remember" is seriously the most remedial argument a person can make. Like no seriously, it's an absolutely fucking terrible argument.
Did you know there were statues of King George in the 13 colonies? They were all torn down and melted to be used for weapons and other things. Yet somehow magically you still know about the American Revolutionary War.
Almost as if...the removal of pointless statues doesn't impede learning about history or something.
Also the argument of memorializing Confederate soldiers is equally remedial. They didn't want to be part of the US, and they lost so it seems pretty dumb to keep up statues of people who didn't even want to be part of the US. The argument of memorializing them because they're human and blah blah, is also stupid because by that notion none of you who are making this equally remedial argument can argue against having statues of Japanese fighter pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor. I mean after all, they were simply following orders and were humans too.
Did you know there were statues of King George in the 13 colonies? They were all torn down and melted to be used for weapons and other things. Yet somehow magically you still know about the American Revolutionary War.
Almost as if...the removal of pointless statues doesn't impede learning about history or something.
Also the argument of memorializing Confederate soldiers is equally remedial. They didn't want to be part of the US, and they lost so it seems pretty dumb to keep up statues of people who didn't even want to be part of the US. The argument of memorializing them because they're human and blah blah, is also stupid because by that notion none of you who are making this equally remedial argument can argue against having statues of Japanese fighter pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor. I mean after all, they were simply following orders and were humans too.
Explains a lot! J/K
Seriously though there's no point preserving more than one or two of these. They're cheaply produced, recent and of little to no individual historic interest (in that each is worthless the only historic point is why they were created and approx when).
Thus so long as they're documented and photographed there's no need to keep them even in a museum.
To be blunt there's a lot more guenuinely precious and individually historic stuff deserving of a spot in a museum than these statues.
Largely because of concessions and the presence of the union army. Baltimore had major southern leanings and rioted during the war.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
Will love to go back to ATL to see the outcome of that.
balladofwindfishes
Member
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article29557972.html
The Allies and non-Nazi Germany destroyed nearly every bit of Nazi memorabilia and statues. What remains is just a small fraction of what once existed.
They were so concerned that any depiction of Nazis would be a site of pilgrimage, they removed every part of the statues, completely destroyed them, and even replaced the bricks around them.
And it's not even comparable anyway because these aren't Confederate statues. These are factory produced garbage decades after the war ended (even 100+ years in many cases!).
What you're suggesting is if some Neo-Nazi group made a statue of Hitler 50 years ago, we have to respect that and preserve it because... I don't really know why? These statues people are tearing down aren't particularly old or important and don't mean anything beyond being used as intimidation against minorities.
Anyone sing they have historic value needs to read a book. They were produced in factories and shipped to whoever paid. The most recent one was made in 2010. These aren't art pieces or historic, all of them produced to memorialize the racist traitors, many of them during Jim Crow era as symbols of pro-oppression of African Americans.
I remember my first visit to Alphabetic Park. Seeing those giant letter statues everywhere commemorating the alphabet. Why I surely never forgot what letters were or how they band together to form words. You just can't learn these things from books, you just can't!
Statue based learning is really the only way! If they take down these statues, how will kids learn anything about the Civil War or our nation's history? And what next, they start taking down the number statues at the Counting Pavilion of Numerology?!?!!!!1
It's just so sad. How will the children of the future learn without statues? ;____;
Fox Mulder
Member
how can I enjoy a laser light show if not projected on a confederate monument??
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Here's how Germany honors Hitler's legacy:
An info board.
To reinforce just how recent most of these monuments are (and, for some years, what the spikes correspond to) here's a little graphic. As someone said, these monuments are NOT part of this nation's history, they were primarily used as a message to minorities to sit down and shut up. That massive spike after Plessy v Fergusen is no coincidence, especially with most being in front of courthouses. Then you have the huge flood of school-based ones during the Civil Rights movement.
source:
https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage_splc.pdf
Map added by AFP:
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/897793820821118977
balladofwindfishes
Member
This particular monument I think has an argument to not be destroyed. It's not mass produced and it's good as an example of the resurgence of Confederate nostalgia and the use of monuments as a symbol of fear.
The issue, I guess, is figuring out how to keep it around without actually keeping it around, since it's carved into a mountain.
Or maybe some kind of monument graveyard like the level in N64's Goldeneye.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
That's where he died btw.
This is where he was born
But there are probably a bunch of states glorifying him everywhere around. Just not in the frame.
TechnicPuppet
Nothing! I said nothing!
That's where he died btw.
This is where he was born
But there are probably a bunch of states glorifying him everywhere around. Just not in the frame.
That's interesting. I googled what it says.
For Peace, Freedom
And democracy
Never again Facism
Millions of dead remind us
7DollarHagane
Banned
This is a good thing. No monuments to traitors.
jackissocool
Member
Well it should probably go in a museum so we can see how shitty people have been/are. Gotta learn from history and all.
So the argument for keeping it around rather than the statues is that it's bigger?
Greigor The Fellhand
Member
oh fuck yeah!
SolarPowered
Member
JFC
The South was a mistake. Say what you will about the man's thoughts on slavery, but Lee would probably wretch at the thought of so many hundreds of confederate monuments (especially his).
The Last Wizard
Member
Now let's work on that police force you got Baltimore.
AuthenticM
Member
Nah. Melt them and create statues of black activists.
That spike during Civil Rights....
No they're not. What sort of human gets history lessons from statues?
These are lawn ornaments that commemorate white supremacy. That's all they are and that's all they've ever been.
BrutishMrFish
Member
Those statues teach nothing about how shitty people were, though, they honor the people they depict. If teaching history is a priority, there are many better candidates for statues than Confederates.
One of the statues removed was of Supreme Court Justice Roger B. Taney of the Dredd Scott vs.Standford.
"It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard to that unfortunate race which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."
"It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard to that unfortunate race which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."
balladofwindfishes
Member
More that it's older, more permanent, and more well known than random statues in parks in Maryland. It was carved by the sculptor of Mt Rushmore and is one of the largest reliefs in the entire world.
There are ways they could make an informative exhibit out of the mountain without making it into a monument or a place for the KKK to gather.
Yep. The only people getting reminded about the past with these statues are Black folks. They exist in the communities they live in.
If you are for letting these statues stand for the sake of history, you're a trash human being. History can be remembered in other ways through books and museums.
Besides, judging by what happened this last weekend with Nazis, White Supremacy, and Trump I'm going to say it's not working, unless those same people would suggest we need even more confederate statues for people to learn from!
Alligatorjandro
Banned
Good
Palette Swap
Member
The "don't forget history" argument is so lazy and borders on transparent defense of oppression.
A. I think it's pretty clear at this point everyone remembers.
B. Celebrating this scum won't help remember. You know what helps? Remembering victims and their ordeals. Celebrating their tormentors normalizes their actions.
A. I think it's pretty clear at this point everyone remembers.
B. Celebrating this scum won't help remember. You know what helps? Remembering victims and their ordeals. Celebrating their tormentors normalizes their actions.
nelsonroyale
Member
Good. What they represent is reprehensible...Why not put up something in their place that actually has artistic integrity as well. Most of these are rubbish art, of individuals representing rubbish beliefs.
Well done
Well done
In addition to what people said above, Maryland was a slave state with heavy pro-Confederate sympathies. There was a Baltimore mob that attacked Union troops early on in the war, the governor had the secession vote done in a pro-Union town instead of the state capital, Lincoln was rushed through Baltimore on the way to his inauguration because they were positive someone was going to try to assassinate him there, and the federal government declared martial law in Baltimore and actually aimed guns at the city at one point.
Exactly. There's plenty of us who remember, and there's a bunch of assholes who descended from slavers who lost a war for the right to own other people who want us to "remember." Screw that romanticized fake history nonsense they want to rewrite. America was too fucking soft on them after they lost.
The south ain't fucking rising again. Because we broke it's kneecaps, shattered it's ankles and left it face down in a ditch.
Yeah, I think this is the biggest difference between confederate statues and those of (or made by) questionable people in Germany.
Because make no mistake, those definitely still exist. Hitler wasn't the only German man who did evil things. But statues commemorating, e.g., Germany's last emperor were usually made during his reign and nowadays are often contextualised by info boxes.
They weren't made by royalists who wanted their colonies back decades after the fact. Additionally, basically none of Germany's current societal challenges are rooted in politics Wilhelm II stood for.
So yes, destroy them. Then use the materials to make monuments about the civil rights movement, the end of slavery or the end of segregation, put them in the same place and provide the very same image I quoted at their site to show their history.
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