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Spain to suspend Catalonia's autonomy
- Thread starter Majine
- Start date
Crow Pudding
Member
It's just a child's fight to see who has the larger penis.
Turin Turambar
Member
Spain applying the same law (approved also by Catalonia) as all the others communities = fascism.
I dont think its that hard to understand the economic consequences of Cataluña leaving Spain. They no longer would be part of the EU or common market with no way in to get in knowing that Spain (and other countries concerned about their own secession movements) has a veto regarding Cataluña applying to join.
That said, Ive seen of talk from people who think independence would mean the EU welcomes them on day one, so there is likely a good percentage of those who want independence that have no idea the consequences that await.
Thanks guys. So Spain's answer to Catalonia wanting independence is to make it less independent than it already was?
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Well, Puigdemont and the other independists have never talked about economy in their talks or just spew fantasy bullshit, so it doesnt surprise me people that follow them know shit of what can happen to them. In fact, just had a trip to london wkth a friend of mi e that was a 25 year old independist and in our friendly talk about the situation i asked if he know that his range age was going to be one of the most affected with thos and he was clearly oblivious at any of the economic problems being a republic would entail.
He things everything will solve at the end because barcelona is too important to be left apart by the EU...
I really didnt know how to continue after that.
deathkiller
Member
Well, PP thinks that Spain is a Nation and Catalonia is not and Independentists think that Catalonia is a Nation and Spain is not (they would define it more like a Castilian Empire I suppose).
Spain hasn't been a multi-national state since the unification of the Aragon and Castilla.
Maybe after the succession war between the Borbons and the Austrias, when the local laws (fueros) were removed.
That didn't remove the nations within Spain, it just consolidated the states. Catalonians, Basques etc. didn't lose their national identities on unification
Nation != Country != State.
llien
Member
Of course spanish goverment can't do anything else now than follow the law but everyone saw this coming from years, and what did Rajoy do all those years?
What could he do though?
Saying Spain isn't a multinational state is an unbelievable show of ignorance given the circumstances.
HarryHengst
Member
The law is wrong and the response to uphold that wrong law is also wrong. You cant always hide behind ''but its the law''.
I wonder this myself. It doesnt take a genius to understand this whole process is illegal, and the vote was a sham. Yet people expect the Spainish government to just accept it snd move on?
You're gonna have to ellaborate on that if you wanna discuss this.
I know Americans NEED to see everything on a good vs evil basis, but that kind of thinking is what got us to this point in the first place.
Actually a govern should always comply with the law of its own country. Expecting anything else is ridiculous.
People *expect* the Spanish regime to provide a mechanism for Catalonians to peacefully determine their own future.
It's fundamentally immoral in that it does not provide a peaceful mechanism for nations within Spain to exercise their right to self determination.
deathkiller
Member
How do you value consensus in this case? In Spain a very high degree of support is required to change it's most fundamental parts of it's constitution to avoid another Civil War that could happen if an small majority impose big changes to a sizable minority.
People are unwilling to fight for things they don't believe are good and just. When two people have radically different versions of just events usually one is wrong. Not always but just in the vast majority of historical conflicts.
edit: adding important word
Now nothing, that's why I said it. But as I also said everyone saw it coming, and Rajoy always refused to talk with Catalonia for a better pact, for example with Mas before the latter when full independentists.
Hell, PP went ham against the Catalan Estatut that ended up being denied and was a major point to this mess.
All those years Rajoy knew a fire was starting and Catalonia and refused to acknowledge it or act about it. Now that fire is burning him.
Spain as far as I can tell are acting correctly in the eyes of the law.
When you throw in emotions and beliefs in to the argument then that's when things turn sour, however the law is the law.
You could argue that Spain rather than taking more control over Catalonia should just let the emotions simmer down but they have constantly stated at every hurdle that declaring independence in this way is illegal and therefore not recognised.
What the Catalonian departments should be doing is throwing everything they have in to amending that article (and law) to allow for a recognised and therefore legal referendum and do it according to the law rather than rallying people behind the emotion of gaining independence.
When you throw in emotions and beliefs in to the argument then that's when things turn sour, however the law is the law.
You could argue that Spain rather than taking more control over Catalonia should just let the emotions simmer down but they have constantly stated at every hurdle that declaring independence in this way is illegal and therefore not recognised.
What the Catalonian departments should be doing is throwing everything they have in to amending that article (and law) to allow for a recognised and therefore legal referendum and do it according to the law rather than rallying people behind the emotion of gaining independence.
Democracy can't operate under the assumption that people who didn't vote would've voted a certain way.
It has to make do with the people who did vote.
It was largely ignored because Spain themselves declared it wasn't a legal referendum. If you were told by your own country that this vote isn't going to be recognised would you go and vote? I would argue the vast majority would not.
It actually does in the case of a referendum for a big change of the status quo.
This is completely unrealistic though given the relative size of Catalonia's return to Spanish legislature etc. vs the large majority outside of Catalonia that are ideologically incapable of being flexible here.
Catalonia, Basque Country etc. have pushed for change "legally" and have been routinely denied the opportunity.
Let me skip straight to the main point of contention by summarising the usual argument. Many would reply to you that's blatantly false given that there are mechanisms to reform the Constitution and allow for a referendum on the matter. You'd tell me that implies the rest of Spain would have a say on the matter then, which doesn't make much sense to you. Many would say it does, for Catalonia has for long benefited arguably even more than many other regions of Spain from the pooled resources of the country. It's like libertarians claiming they shouldn't be taxed for the work and riches they alone have accumulated while they have been benefitting from the public road network and the stability provided by the state authorities.
To say the Spanish laws are fundamentally immoral, in any case, isn't very defensible. Spain is a democratic country where laws are made by representatives of the people for the people. Anything else is gonna take a deeper debate on the nature of the modern nation-state and of the right of self-determination than a gaming forum naturally allows for, but let's try and serve the purpose of this place by at least providing more than blanket statements and purposefully misleading foreigners on what's going on. That's called propaganda and it's not the best way to go around gaining international support for your cause.
It is entirely defensible. The Spanish constitution provides no mechanism for it's constituent nations to express their rights to self determination. That is immoral. Anything else is over-complication of what is a very simple concept.
Self Determination = good.
Democracy = good.
Peace = good.
Repression = bad.
Violence = bad.
Would resorting to "illegal" routines make the situation any better though? I understand the frustration from the Catalonian people and it's representatives but if they were banking on this referendum to kickstart proceedings then it was a mere fairytale.
Imagine if the state of Florida would want to break away from the US they would face the same (if not harsher due to Trump) blocked avenues. No country is going to willingly give up any of their land that is theirs after all that land generates taxes and income. But it does happen and can happen but it's a long path to achieve.
I can only use the experience of the UK independence as an example but Scotland had to go through numerous trials and tribulations to get to the stage they got to with declaring a legal referendum with the UK government. It wasn't easy and ultimately the SNP bigged up its claim that Scotland would be better independent but actually behind all that the public voted to remain within the UK, what's to say there is a large proportion of Catalonia wanting to remain in Spain also?
Only way to tell is to get the rights to agreeing with Spain to do so. Will it be hard? Absolutely. Will it be almost impossible? Arguably yes but you can't go around throwing your toys out the pram when the very country who you're a part of actually wants to keep hold of its assets and by all accounts legally.
I'm not overcomplicating anything, I'm just not selling anyone on an alternate reality by oversimplifying things like you are doing. For people to be fair and precise with each other is what this conflict requires. By reducing everything to good and bad is how you end up with people hitting each other over the head for the silliest stuff.
All nation states are doomed to fail eventually. Whether it takes some months or hundred of years is irrelevant. Most people will never understand this as they only have a very limited viewpoint on the matter, but from a historic viewpoint this is easy to see.
About this current issue - well, it will be a shitshow.
About this current issue - well, it will be a shitshow.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Wrong.
Jezbollah
Member
That's not how it works.
That legal mechanism exists and the Catalonian independentists chose to ignore and bypass it entirely in the first place.
fabricated backlash
Member
Nationalism was always an oberhyped bandaid to preserve territories, elites and organisational structures from monarchies, by switching the raison d'etat to a new philosophical construct.
Also careful about using history as a fortune telling tool. Understanding history doesn't make your predictions of the future any more likely than others.
You are making a major confusion here though. Catalan people have the right to self determination according to the Spanish constitution, as they can elect both national and regional representatives and their representatives have devolved powers at the regional level. Self determination doesn't equal independence. Sure, they want more devolved power or rights that go beyond the current law? The right path is to push for a change in the current law. That's how democracy works.
Being morally right from your point of view doesn't excuse breaking the law.
It's not even complying to basic rules of the democracy in Catalonia since for such a change (equivalent with changing the Constitution) there was not an approval of the 2/3 of the local parliament (which is the norm for Constitutional changes) and less than 50% of the total voters voted for it.
Yeah, I might have talked without thinking too much. Sorry.
I can see how the definition of nation I used was incorrect.
This is factually wrong.
Lots of countries require that at least 50%+1 of eligible voters vote for a referendum to be valid in the first place.
The independence referendum didn't get that. And it was doubly illegal, first because it's not allowed by the constitution to secede, and second because the catalonian parliament didn't vote at 2/3 majority for it.
If the Northern League in Italy had pushed for something like this you'd be certain that GAF would all over condemning them because they're assholes and they just want less of their moneys to go to the poor. Go on with this reasoning and you may as well abolish states and taxes, i'm sure that would work well.
This is just offensively ignorant
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Some people here believe the only reason Catalonia is not as important as the United States is because Spain is dragging it down. So what do you expect.
Green Yoshi
Member
That's how a civil war looks like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War
Over 610'000 deaths.
deathkiller
Member
Well if you are a Native American then is more like if a group of Native Americans decided to become independent from USA.
Charles Brandon
Member
More like Texas. An area that was once independent and has retained its own identity alongside its identity as a member of the United States. And wanted to become independent again.
Making no assumptions whatsoever then I get from many polls I've seen online in certain sites that 90% of Americans believe Trump is the best President ever.
No excuses. After all, those polls were held by individuals as independent and impartial as those that organised the Catalonian referendum, and they had just about as many democratic guarantees. And they are both just as binding and official.
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