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Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?

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A

Ashodin

Member
TOP OF THE PAGE

What you need to know:


  • ICONIC MASTERS announced today! It's a set with iconic tribal themes in it, Angels, Dragons, and more, with older beloved spells from Magic's history!
  • HASCON announced! Hasbro's First Ever Convention, Where Magic will be a featured product and Iconic Masters will be drafted with NO official spoilers beforehand!
  • HASCON takes place in Providence, Rhode Island on September 8th - 10th.
  • AMONKHET PRERELEASE THIS WEEKEND! Go to your LGS and support them while getting shiny new cards and potential INVOCATIONS!

Posted yet?

HOU_SET_SYMBOL.png


Bolas is the set symbol (as if it was anything else).

Are we always going to get the villains as the second set now?
 
N

Neoweee

Member
OnPoint said:
This is a good start for playable pushed card, but again, doesn't really feel like a hydra. But if they did more cards of this power level with hydras, I'd be willing to bet the creature type would resonate.
Click to expand...

I think "Comes back after it dies, at a more efficient cost" is Hydra-ish. It's a different take on regenerating heads.
 
G

GregLombardi

Member
Ashodin said:
TOP OF THE PAGE

What you need to know:


  • ICONIC MASTERS announced today! It's a set with iconic tribal themes in it, Angels, Dragons, and more, with older beloved spells from Magic's history!
  • HASCON announced! Hasbro's First Ever Convention, Where Magic will be a featured product and Iconic Masters will be drafted with NO official spoilers beforehand!
  • HASCON takes place in Providence, Rhode Island on September 8th - 10th.
  • AMONKHET PRERELEASE THIS WEEKEND! Go to your LGS and support them while getting shiny new cards and potential INVOCATIONS!

Posted yet?

HOU_SET_SYMBOL.png


Bolas is the set symbol (as if it was anything else).

Are we always going to get the villains as the second set now?
Click to expand...
This is literally the only good thing that ever happens in Rhode Island.

Otherwise, we create things for the world like Sean Spicer.

Thanks Hasbro.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
OnPoint said:
Those are all fine cards with cool abilities but I don't know that I'd call any of them "pushed" (though Kalonian surprised me with how little play it saw and sees).



This is a good start for playable pushed card, but again, doesn't really feel like a hydra. But if they did more cards of this power level with hydras, I'd be willing to bet the creature type would resonate.
Click to expand...

You're right that it doesn't, but I would argue that as an iconic creature type it doesn't really "work" with the "X heads" design philosophy because that type of creature tends to be directly on rate (or below it). The most basic "green hydra" design is probably like

Generic Hydra
XG
0/0
Trample
Generic Hydra enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters

That isn't either interesting or particularly good, because by default its below curve and green's keyword abilities are all worse than flying.

Angels and Demons are almost always large fliers with a flashy ability, so its somewhat obvious why they're popular. Sphinxes have the same problem Hydras do, but at least they fly, and Dragons are just inherently a popular creature type.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I just actively disliked the storyline in Kaladesh; it felt like it hit all the marks of stuff you were dreading would happen if they put the Gatewatch in every single set; e.g. the Gatewatch in full is there for no reason; the worldbuilding and planar conflict took a backseat to the Gatewatch's existence; and, nothing actually happened, and there were few real reasons for the Gatewatch to be there. I also personally disliked the type of world they made Kaladesh - it's kind of a generic artifact world, but not in the cool Mirrodin way.

So Amonkhet feels far more sinister and serious than Kaladesh did.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Ashodin said:
well aether revolt pussied out on making an actual villain worth noting since Tezzeret just ran away like a bitch
Click to expand...

Listen, he's Tezzeret "the Schemer" not Tezzeret "the Guy Who Gets Things Done".

If you aren't in the market for schemes or maybe music you should find someone else.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I played a Tezzeret the Schemer deck at FNM for the entirety of AER standard.

I think I lost like 4 matches all season. Of course, I play at a large store that generally speaking has a very limited number of regulars who would dare show up to FNM with something other than a tryhard brew. I've run into lots and lots of Detective Jaces in my time.
 
I

Infinite Stars

Member
If they don't Nuke the majority of the reserve list with Iconic Masters then I don't know why they're bothering to make the set. You can't justify $10 packs and have fucking Shivan Dragon at rare(which it will be if there's no reserve list)

kirblar said:
No one likes Hydras because Hydras aren't cool.
Click to expand...
I like Hydras, but I'm alone in this camp.

I do think Hydra's need some sort of rehaul like "At the beginning of each end step, if ~ has taken damage this turn but hasn't died, put X +1/+1 Counters on it where X is the damage it took". Either that or something like that one Ooze that splits into smaller Oozes.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
GregLombardi said:
This is literally the only good thing that ever happens in Rhode Island.

Otherwise, we create things for the world like Sean Spicer.

Thanks Hasbro.
Click to expand...

I literally forgot that Delaware was a state the other day

Like I was reviewing some customer data and I saw DE and went "DE...DE...D-Delaware?"
 
I

Imperfected

Member
I like hydras okay, but I think people have pointed out some obvious issues with them:

There aren't many "named" hydras. There are tons of legendary dragons, angels, and even a fair number of sphinxes. There are... actually not that many legendary demons, that I can recall, which is sort of weird, but whatever. There are just a couple of legendary hydras; as tribes go, they're probably smaller than Oozes or Elementals, even.

The last two green iconic planeswalkers have had creature types associated to them (Beasts and Elementals), which makes both of those types feel more green-associated.

There's not a ton of mechanical variety in how hydras work and what they do.

Most of them just aren't great outside of Limited.

So, if you're going to print a hydra tribal set, I don't even know how you go about that. Are there going to be an absolute ton of tribal support cards? Are they just going to give them generic green ramp and creature tutoring, throw in a "captain" hydra (pffft) and call it a day?
 
C

charlequin

Banned
The idea of a stealth pre-release for this set is honestly pretty awesome. I'm old enough to actually remember when it worked that way and we were scouring the internet for the results of the Ice Age prere, lol. Doing it with a (hopefully cool) reprint set is a good way to do that without causing the kind of problems you would with a standard-legal set.

FreedomFrisbee said:
I don't know how they justify $10 packs of anything if they're printing 2 sets like that a year.
Click to expand...

I don't think they are. Pretty sure this is just the front half of an overall revamp of the schedule. In the old world it was Masters in spring, rando supplemental in Summer, and Commander in fall; now it'll be random supplemental in the spring, commander in the summer, and Masters in the fall, which I think overall makes more sense.

The Technomancer said:
Going through the set reviews

guys

I think Amonkhet might be really good
Click to expand...

It's funny to me every time how little everyone's kneejerk reactions to stuff right upfront has to do with where things ultimately land.

FreedomFrisbee said:
Dinosaurs should have been the green iconic long ago.
Click to expand...

It's really really hard to justify Dinosaurs as anything but french vanilla fatties, and they're an even tougher creative fit in most sets than Hydras.

Maledict said:
They won't abolish the reserved list. It's frankly not worth the effort or risk to do so. There's not that much gain, and potential huge amounts of aggro behind it.
Click to expand...

I don't see it at all.

Upsides: satisfaction for the significant majority of players who want this to happen, huge new store of reprint equity to exploit for years, dramatically easier design process for reprint sets, opportunity to create truly desirable ultra-premium products using reserved cards, a generally increased level of respect demonstrated for the game's fans and its long, distinguished history.

Downsides: pisses off important groups like "collectors who care a lot about monetary value of cards they don't intend to sell" and "B-list card dealers who don't understand the way CFB/SCG do that the reserve list isn't good for them," can't get approved by the brilliant lawyers at HASBRO LEGAL who also believe you can't legally allow game designers to see fan designs on the internet and that adding a hashtag to a tweet absolves them of some level of liability.

Where's the major downside again?
 
R

red13th

Member
Infinite Stars said:
If they don't Nuke the majority of the reserve list with Iconic Masters then I don't know why they're bothering to make the set. You can't justify $10 packs and have fucking Shivan Dragon at rare(which it will be if there's no reserve list)
Click to expand...

What the fuck? Reprinting iconic spells and creatures IS in itself a huge and important reason.
 
S

Santiako

Member
I can see them keeping moxen/lotus/power as a reserve list, but there is zero reason to not get rid of the list for the lands, things like Academy Rector, Survival of the Fittest, Wheel of Fortune, Tabernacle, Masticore, Rofellos, Powder Keg, etc
 
A

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
Ashodin said:
There will be extremely LOUD vocal backlash against the Reserved List dying.
Click to expand...

Loud, but from a very, very small portion of the game's paying audience. As a group, casual drafters and FNM players put significantly more money into the game than collectors.
 
A

Ashodin

Member
aidan said:
Loud, but from a very, very small portion of the game's paying audience. As a group, casual drafters and FNM players put significantly more money into the game than collectors.
Click to expand...

True, but those people who will be loud will be very angry and try to spread their message as wide as possible to make it seem like it's the entire community.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
I mean, there's probably going to be loud complaining either way, so go with the loud complaining that's best for the health of the game and the company.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Ashodin said:
There will be extremely LOUD vocal backlash against the Reserved List dying.
Click to expand...

From who?

It's very well established that while it's not all, a serious majority of players prefer eliminating the list.

All of the major dealers prefer a world without the reserved list because reserved cards are actually a bad investment due to high pricepoint and low liquidity.

I don't see any evidence that there's a sizeable group who are seriously negatively impacted by this decision and would complain in a way that would register above the universal complaining that follows every WotC decision.

Ashodin said:
True, but those people who will be loud will be very angry and try to spread their message as wide as possible to make it seem like it's the entire community.
Click to expand...

This literally happens like twice a month for WotC so the incentive to care about this happening at all is deeply reduced unless it affects some other metric they actually care about, which in this case it would not.
 
W

Wichu

Member
Imperfected said:
I like hydras okay, but I think people have pointed out some obvious issues with them:

There aren't many "named" hydras. There are tons of legendary dragons, angels, and even a fair number of sphinxes. There are... actually not that many legendary demons, that I can recall, which is sort of weird, but whatever. There are just a couple of legendary hydras; as tribes go, they're probably smaller than Oozes or Elementals, even.?
Click to expand...

There's exactly one mono-green legendary Hydra (Polukranos), and only two multicolour ones. More legendary Hydras please :(

Legendary counts:
Angel: 25 (10 mono-W)
Sphinx: 6 (1 mono-U)
Demon: 19 (12 mono-B) - this includes Withengar and Ormendahl, which are noncreatures on the front face
Dragon: 40 (3 mono-R) - the vast majority of legendary dragons are multicoloured
Hydra: 3 (1 mono-G)

Demons are actually doing pretty well in terms of legendary count, though admittedly they got some help from having Demons be a supported tribe in Kamigawa.

There exist also one demon planeswalker (Ob Nixilis) and two dragon planeswalkers (Bolas and Ugin). Crucius is a sphinx walker, but hasn't appeared on a card yet.
 
A

Ashodin

Member
charlequin said:
From who?

It's very well established that while it's not all, a serious majority of players prefer eliminating the list.

All of the major dealers prefer a world without the reserved list because reserved cards are actually a bad investment due to high pricepoint and low liquidity.

I don't see any evidence that there's a sizeable group who are seriously negatively impacted by this decision and would complain in a way that would register above the universal complaining that follows every WotC decision.
Click to expand...

Neither do I, nonetheless it's likely there, waiting to be unleashed.


This literally happens like twice a month for WotC so the incentive to care about this happening at all is deeply reduced unless it affects some other metric they actually care about, which in this case it would not.
Click to expand...

Like I said, there is obvious incentive not to do it because of their perceived mantra of "We were right, always" about the Reserved List. The arrogance over it over the years has produced this kind of "if we take it away, we'll look like asses who should've never done it in the first place".

The problem is they're looking more and more like asses if they don't. So hopefully that tipping point is reached someday.

The chant grows louder and louder really.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Wichu said:
There's exactly one mono-green legendary Hydra (Polukranos), and only two multicolour ones. More legendary Hydras please :(

Legendary counts:
Angel: 25 (10 mono-W)
Sphinx: 6 (1 mono-U)
Demon: 19 (12 mono-B) - this includes Withengar and Ormendahl, which are noncreatures on the front face
Dragon: 40 (3 mono-R) - the vast majority of legendary dragons are multicoloured
Hydra: 3 (1 mono-G)

Demons are actually doing pretty well in terms of legendary count, though admittedly they got some help from having Demons be a supported tribe in Kamigawa.
Click to expand...

Oh right, I forgot the Kamigawa demons. I thought they were just (non-demon) Spirits for some reason.
 
F

FreedomFrisbee

Member
Ashodin said:
There will be extremely LOUD vocal backlash against the Reserved List dying.
Click to expand...

If by 'loud' you mean 'lawsuits filed by unknown parties' then ya, probably. Because major vendors are all on record as saying they want it gone, and the large majority of players want it gone. If Wizards made a move, they would either have placated the litigious parties beforehand, or they are prepared to bite that bullet.

Like, reserve list getting done away with would be met with parties in the streets.
 
W

Wichu

Member
Imperfected said:
Oh right, I forgot the Kamigawa demons. I thought they were just (non-demon) Spirits for some reason.
Click to expand...

Even counting only story-relevant characters, demons still have Malfegor (he appeared in the comic), Griselbrand, Kothoped, Rakdos, Ob Nixilis, and soon Razaketh as cards.

Sphinxes have Alhammarret, Isperia, and Sharuum (did Medomai appear in the story?)

Angels have Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna, Sigarda, Aurelia, Akroma, Razia, Selenia, Radiant.

Dragons have the original Elder Dragons, the Tarkir Dragonlords, the Primordials, Niv-Mizzet, Rorix, Karrthus, Malfegor (again), and the Kamigawa dragon spirits (notable in that they sided with the humans in the Kami War).

Hydras have Polukranos, Ulasht, and Progenitus. I'm not sure whether Ulasht counts as story-relevant, but Polukranos and Progenitus appeared in their planes' stories.
 
L

Lazy vs Crazy

Member
The question is really does the amount of money they'll make on reprinting old cards outweigh the loss of value of the cards by existing collectors that are willing to sue over it.

And yeah, it probably does.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Wichu said:
Hydras have Polukranos, Ulasht, and Progenitus. I'm not sure whether Ulasht counts as story-relevant, but Polukranos and Progenitus appeared in their planes' stories.
Click to expand...

It's weird that Ulasht is even a hydra.

Hydras would be tied with Kraken Tribal in terms of legendaries if someone hadn't dropped the ball on Lorthos.
 
G

Glix

Member
MagicGAF, I have a rules question.

Someone attacked me with a myr battleshpere last night, and tapped their four tokens for the extra power/direct damage.

With the effect on the stack I used removal on the battleshpere. Because the card says tap x blah blah to have BATTLESPHERE deal X dmg, I assumed that when the ability resolved the damage wouldn't happen because the battlesphere is no longer in play.

I was very wrong. Has it always been like this or was there a rules change at some point? I was shocked when the damage went through.

edit - re: reserve list - I'm all for getting rid of it but if I owned a set of power and 4x of each dual I would be PISSED.
 
A

Ashodin

Member
Glix said:
MagicGAF, I have a rules question.

Someone attacked me with a myr battleshpere last night, and tapped their four tokens for the extra power/direct damage.

With the effect on the stack I used removal on the battleshpere. Because the card says tap x blah blah to have BATTLESPHERE deal X dmg, I assumed that when the ability resolved the damage wouldn't happen because the battlesphere is no longer in play.

I was very wrong. Has it always been like this or was there a rules change at some point? I was shocked when the damage went through.

edit - re: reserve list - I'm all for getting rid of it but if I owned a set of power and 4x of each dual I would be PISSED.
Click to expand...
The ability of the Battlesphere is placed on the stack, meaning regardless of what happens to it after that, the ability goes off.

See this Rule:

Rule 112 covers this adequately. Rule 112.3a tells us that Activating an ability puts it on the stack, until it resolves, is countered (Stifle), or it otherwise leaves the stack (Time Stop). Rule 112.7a tells us that the activated ability exists independent of the source, and does not quality this separation with objects moving to a hidden zone.
Click to expand...
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Ashodin said:
Neither do I, nonetheless it's likely there, waiting to be unleashed.
Click to expand...

So your theory here is that... what, a secret imaginary crowd of people whose objections can't be identified and aren't visible at all now, but which will inevitably manifest in volume afterwards because... why, exactly?

Like I said, there is obvious incentive not to do it because of their perceived mantra of "We were right, always" about the Reserved List.
Click to expand...

This doesn't exist. Every single person in a leadership position in R&D has said the Reserved List was a mistake and they want to eliminate it.

Lazy vs Crazy said:
The question is really does the amount of money they'll make on reprinting old cards outweigh the loss of value of the cards by existing collectors that are willing to sue over it.
Click to expand...

Trivially.
 
A

Ashodin

Member
charlequin said:
This doesn't exist. Every single person in a leadership position in R&D has said the Reserved List was a mistake and they want to eliminate it.
Click to expand...

So basically your theory here is that the only thing stopping them from removing the Reserved List is how much money they want to make and when.

OK.
 
M

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
TBH if the reserve list does get broken down, I'd kind of expect the reserve list to get 'tiered', and have the Power 9 + a few others stay out, if only due to their extremely crazy cost factor.

But for stuff like old-dual lands, where they're pretty much a staple/necessity of legacy/vintage decks, and supply is kind of running low at this point, I could see them breaking that type of stuff apart.

But I have no idea where stuff in between those 'levels' of power would go in any sort of list.

The question is really does the amount of money they'll make on reprinting old cards outweigh the loss of value of the cards by existing collectors that are willing to sue over it.

And yeah, it probably does.
Click to expand...

Legally, is there actually even recourse for this, though?

Yeah, they've 'said' it a lot over the years, but even if it's in print, unless there's some formal contract with some player out there, as a business wouldn't they be free to 'change their minds', so to speak, especially if they gave advance notice?
 
M

MoxManiac

Member
I think abolishing the Reserved List will completely crash the secondary market of the game and injure MTG as a whole.

BTW, I'm one of the people that wants the RL gone, but reality is reality.
 
U

ultron87

Member
I wonder, how much would hypothetical newly printed Power actually be worth? You can't use them in any format except Vintage, which doesn't really have a booming event scene.

I guess what I'm asking is, is the price of Power actually a function of people buying them to play Vintage at sanctioned tournaments, or is it just due to their collectibility and rarity?
 
I

Imperfected

Member
The secondary market has remained fine for cards that were never on the Reserved List. You can still pay way too much for a Lilian of the Veil, even without anyone threatening to sue over it being reprinted.
 
G

Glix

Member
I mean...there were tons of cards that people felt were "too powerful for standard" so they would never be reprinted. PPL invested lots of money in cards like thoughtseize and clique and 'goyf and stuff.

And then wizards reprinted and lots of other stuff, by making non standard legal sets, which is something many people said they thought wizards would NEVER do.

And the game is still okay. And the games economy is still okay.

People thought that removing the ability to redeem was going to crash the MODO economy. And well... it did mess things up for a while, but now everything is okay.

There might be a backlash if they do it. And they may lose some players. But I think the game will not only be fine, but will be even healthier, if they do, do it.

They should really troll motherfuckers hard and release Vintage Masters IRL and make Lotus a common.

ULTRON - it depends how many ppl pick up Vintage. Vintage players LOVE vintage and are convinced the player pool would be much higher, if the access to the cards was there.
 
S

Santiako

Member
Iconic Masters Team:

Initial Design

Erik Lauer (lead)
Ken Troop
Yoni Skolnik

Final Design

Bryan Hawley (lead)
Adam Prosak
Alan Canode
Pete Ingram

Worldbuilding

Kelly Digges
Colin Kawakami
Sam Burley
Dawn Murin
Cynthia Sheppard
Mark Winters
Kimberly Kreines
Mel Li
James Wyatt
Cynthia Sheppard
Jenna Helland
Doug Beyer
James Wyatt
Ari Levitch
Jeremy Jarvis

Editing

Nat Moes (lead)

Product Architect

Mark Globus

With R&D Contributions by:

James Arnold
Andrew Brown
Melissa DeTroa
Kelly Digges
Ian Duke
Ethan Fleischer
Jane Flohrschutz
Aaron Forsythe
Marisa Fulmer
Mark Gottlieb
Ben Hayes
Mark Heggen
Dan Helland
Dave Humpherys
Glenn Jones
Del Laugel
Jackie Lee
Peter Lee
Ari Levitch
Shawn Main
Bill McQuillan
Alli Medwin
Ken Nagle
Drew Nolosco
Jules Robins
Bill Rose
Mark Rosewater
Rob Schuster
Eli Shiffrin
Sam Stoddard
Matt Tabak
Gavin Verhey

Brand Team

Adam Colby
April Glass
Brian Trunk
Courtney Kim
Elaine Chase
Gerrit Turner
Mark Purvis
Matt Danner
Nick Wolfram
Rebecca Shepard

CAPS

Andy Smith
Barry Craig
BJ Keeley
Bree Heiss
Brian Dumas
Curt Gould
Erik Metzler
Erika Vergel de Dios
Erin Lester
Godot Gutierre
Jefferson Dunlap
Kana Suzuki
Kelly Bingham
Kevin Yee
Kim Graham
Lisa Hanson
Mari Hall
Marsha Rivera-Fletcher
Matt Cavotta
Mike Demaine
Nancy Herring
Nate Herring
Nathan Greene
Rie Yamazaki
Robert Drawbaugh
Shelley Munnell
Steve Nashem
Will Ansell


That is a goddamn massive team

EDIT: For comparison, Eternal Masters and MM17 full teams were 7 people each.
 
U

Ultimate_Trainer

Member
Is the Worldbuilding credits for the people who previously made the cards and intergrated them into their original sets or something else?

Also James Wyatt is listed twice in worldbuilding lol.
 
B

Bandini

Member
I would have Vintage paper decks for sure if the reserve list was gone. It would be a big boon for Magic's overall health, imo. I understand them wanting not to get embroiled in lawsuits, but really, how strong of a case can these "investors" have?
 
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