FF Seraphim
Member
Also notice how the slug like creatures in the upper cathedral ward move towards facing where the Daughter of the Cosmos is? Do you think those things are offspring of choir members?
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
Orochinagis
Member
Could Annalise and Queen Yharnam be related..by blood? As in Annalise and I guess the Yharnam nobility (which it's probably mostly gone) are Pthumerian descendants. Both of them are sort of immortalish, have personal guards (Shadows of Yharnam, Cainhurst Knights), the Child of Blood stuff seem to be relevant for both. I don't know.
thecosmicfly
Banned
So, just came across an interesting thread over on reddit that's starting to change how I see certain things about the game.
Bloodborne is all periods.
While I wouldn't say it's the most concrete analysis out there it certainly has opened my eyes (Heh) about some things. Women NPC's giving you more effective Blood Vials. Use of words like "Mensis". What blood dregs are. Even the moons cycle in relation to menstruation.
Speaking of which, the mention of the moon had me curious so I did a bit of googling about full moons. You know what the first moon after the harvest moon is called? Hunter's Moon, or alternatively a Blood Moon.
All of this could just be pointless speculation and even if it isn't I couldn't tell you how all this connects together cohesively, but then again, maybe somehow Miyazaki has just managed to correlate the concept of wolves transforming on a full moon with menstrual cycles, if that hasn't already been done before.
Bloodborne is all periods.
While I wouldn't say it's the most concrete analysis out there it certainly has opened my eyes (Heh) about some things. Women NPC's giving you more effective Blood Vials. Use of words like "Mensis". What blood dregs are. Even the moons cycle in relation to menstruation.
Speaking of which, the mention of the moon had me curious so I did a bit of googling about full moons. You know what the first moon after the harvest moon is called? Hunter's Moon, or alternatively a Blood Moon.
All of this could just be pointless speculation and even if it isn't I couldn't tell you how all this connects together cohesively, but then again, maybe somehow Miyazaki has just managed to correlate the concept of wolves transforming on a full moon with menstrual cycles, if that hasn't already been done before.
Those noodles are the tentacles that are "partially summoned" and then cut off by the Augur of Ebrietas.
Brian_FETO
Banned
So, is the Wet Nurse a version of Eileen? If it's a nightmare that's supposedly keeping the child from Yharnam, does that mean Eileen took/killed Mergo from her? Or the host of the Nightmare fears Eileen and simply sees her as the biggest threat? Perhaps the cloning means something......(or nothing)
Also (likely just a coincedence) but does anyone think there's any connection between Gherman and Logarius? They had similar fighting styles and do the same powering up bullshit AOE move to go super saiyan.
Also (likely just a coincedence) but does anyone think there's any connection between Gherman and Logarius? They had similar fighting styles and do the same powering up bullshit AOE move to go super saiyan.
I'm mystified by your first point but as to your second it's possible they were both hunters at the same time I guess.
Brian_FETO
Banned
Whoops, I meant it was likely just a coincidence that they fought similar.
But yeah, as soon as I saw MWN drop down I made the crow connection, and later was like "wait....her blades were the same too!" I saw a few pages ago someone else brought up the connection but didn't seem like anyone picked up on it.
Lots of fascinating stuff going on in this game. Looking forward to whatever DLC they have planned, maybe it'll shed some light on stuff (or just add to the mystery)
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
It's prob more due to the latin meaning which refers to month. And later down the road in language history, it is refer to moon as well.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
A question for those who have the guide- what's the official name given to the "Cainhurst Hunter" in the grand cathedral at the end of Eileen's quest?
Guide is out right? Any reference to this guy?
I need to know who the fuck this guy is. It's driving me crazy since day 1
Whoever he is, his model is very similar to the wheelchair gunman near the shortcut in Central Yharnam. I'm pretty sure all the wheelchair dudes look like this.
Yeah, that was me. I'm pretty convinced Wet Nurse is some sort of nightmarish version of Eileen, the blades and crow feathers are just too similar to be a coincidence. They even have similar sets of moves.
Although I don't think it's supposed to have any hidden further meaning or correlation between the two, it's like when in a dream you create fantasy stuff starting from real stuff. Just like the doll and the brainy frenzying guys.
OniBarubary
Banned
Aaaaaahhhhhhh someone pointed out to me that the pebbles were eyeballs aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Bloody Crow of Cainhurst
At some point, I imagine this game was to be much much more tied into Demon's Souls than what we have now. The taking *out* of Umbasa says as much. There a lot more connections than just "callbacks" and Gascoigne saying Umbasa would have cemented it as much.
Also I didn't notice but Maiden in Black's covered eyes might have been a really good coincidental(?) tie-in.
But these games are well documented to have lots and lots of cut content in each and every game and them not being able to get all the ideas wouldn't be surprising. Hopefully we get DLC that somewhat expands on that connection.
___
On a different note, Laurence didn't "fear the old blood" as much as he should have. He was probably the first to become a beast and, if all signs end up true, becomes the strongest and most terrifying of them (Bloodletting Beast). He left, founded the Healing Church, and spread bloodministration to grow Yarnham.
Something I realized while typing that. I don't think we get a clear answer as to what the blood is in itself. It's not Paleblood cause Paleblood is the Moon Presence. I don't think it's quite necessary but I imagine the blood is just blood "blessed" by the Great Ones (and I imagine it's probably menstrual blood as well cause the Great Ones love their babies.
Anyway, Willem realized the blood isn't the way to "commune with the gods" but rather insight (which he ends up succeeding in) and this is corroborated with all the eyeballs in the barrels and crates in Byrgenwerth plus the bug enemies are called "Garden of Eyes". The Healing Church split and The Choir focused almost entirely on the blood (and worshiping Ebrietas) while Mensis did their own dark fucked up shit. Eventually Mensis figured out they need insight moreso than blood but they clearly focused on blood for quite a bit given The One Reborn and all the victims bathed in blood.
Nightmare of Mensis is weird? I take it as a physical separate dimension. It's a "dream" just like the Hunter's Dream but dreams are as real as Yarnham. They're just the plane of the Great Ones, is how I take it. But I think the great pool of insight lets you mold it like a dream world depending on whose dreaming it. Like it's a real place and dimension but crafted like you think a dream is crafted. And the Nightmare of Mensis is all of the elite Mensis scholars' place to do all their shit (and attempt to create a great one via Mother Brain). Micolash, as his namesake goes, is the host of the dream and the primary manufacturer? Like Gehrman is the one whose based off of the Hunter's Dream, Micolash is tied to the Nightmare of Mensis. But once it's "created", it exists as all other things do for the Great Ones. Which is why it doesn't go away after he dies. Also he's as dead as any dead person is in Yarnham but his mind is alive in Mensis so that's why he freaks out when you kill him in the nightmare/dream.
There is a weird bit that comes into play though. When you kill the Wet Nurse and Moon Presence you get the Nightmare Slain message so I assume the Great Ones have a very direct influence in crafting the dreams (even though they are based on the "hosts" memories and experiences).
More importantly, you don't get the message from killing the Wet Nurse. The delay is very intentional and it's why you keep hearing the baby crying. Mergo is who "dies" and he is the one managing the nightmare, or however you want to think about it.
There's a lot to talk about and the lore is cool so I'll stop mentioning that stuff, but there is one last thing I'd like to bring up.
Yarnham is weird. Not the city but the Queen. So a *huge* part of the game is still birth and Great Ones losing their child and all that fun stuff. But what's weird to me is that the phrase keeps mentioned that a Great One loses its child and yearns for a surrogate, someone else to bear a child for them. One confusing part is the loss of their child. How and why does that happen? Is that process important? It's weirdly vague in that manner.
Anyway, Yarnham was the chosen surrogate and she had Mergo but as it's strongly hinted at, it seems he was a stillbirth? Maybe? He died but didn't die because he clearly exists in some manner for the great ones. I thiiiiink it's tied to Oedon who is as formless as Mergo is and I imagine that Mergo was to be Oedon's descendant in some manner? Mergo exists in voice only after all. But the still birth part is weird cause it's obvious Yarnham is mourning or morose or distraught (plus the blood all over her stomach and abdomen). Why? It seemed successful I think? Mergo exists in some form. You can even hear him in the "physical" world with enough insight (I think insight doesn't even matter actually). But yah Mergo is weird.
__
Oh one more thing cause it's a really intriguing relationship. Why were Laurence and Gehrman close? Clearly Gehrman doesn't know Laurence transformed into a beast and died. What was their plan? It seems to imply that Laurence knew Gehrman got locked into the dream (or at least he was "taken" in some manner) since Gehrman is waiting on Laurence to do *something*. Maybe Laurence's goal was to find Paleblood to free Gehrman or something like that. Dunno. It's real weird. But Gehrman is trapped by the Moon Presence and he's obviously been so for a loooooong time given his depression over being in the dream for so long.
A slight confusing bit is why he is eager to "free" you of the dream instead of attempting to help you in some manner. Maybe he's trying to do you a favor and just get you out and being selfless in that manner. I think the workshop lit aflame is Gehrman's doing and sort of trying to get the Moon Presence riled up. I don't understand the exact relationship. Maybe it only shows up if there is no other "host" for the dream? I imagine Gehrman thinks you will just succumb to the Moon Presence so he doesn't want you locked for eternity in the dream. I also imagine that he knew Laurence knew how to overcome it and that's why he is solely waiting on him. But then you come along and if you don't have the cords and beat Gehrman, you are forever locked in the dream (BAD END) and if you have the cords then you transcend the hunt (SQUID END). Either way Gehrman is freed to rest eternally (GOOD END).
Also I didn't notice but Maiden in Black's covered eyes might have been a really good coincidental(?) tie-in.
But these games are well documented to have lots and lots of cut content in each and every game and them not being able to get all the ideas wouldn't be surprising. Hopefully we get DLC that somewhat expands on that connection.
___
On a different note, Laurence didn't "fear the old blood" as much as he should have. He was probably the first to become a beast and, if all signs end up true, becomes the strongest and most terrifying of them (Bloodletting Beast). He left, founded the Healing Church, and spread bloodministration to grow Yarnham.
Something I realized while typing that. I don't think we get a clear answer as to what the blood is in itself. It's not Paleblood cause Paleblood is the Moon Presence. I don't think it's quite necessary but I imagine the blood is just blood "blessed" by the Great Ones (and I imagine it's probably menstrual blood as well cause the Great Ones love their babies.
Anyway, Willem realized the blood isn't the way to "commune with the gods" but rather insight (which he ends up succeeding in) and this is corroborated with all the eyeballs in the barrels and crates in Byrgenwerth plus the bug enemies are called "Garden of Eyes". The Healing Church split and The Choir focused almost entirely on the blood (and worshiping Ebrietas) while Mensis did their own dark fucked up shit. Eventually Mensis figured out they need insight moreso than blood but they clearly focused on blood for quite a bit given The One Reborn and all the victims bathed in blood.
Nightmare of Mensis is weird? I take it as a physical separate dimension. It's a "dream" just like the Hunter's Dream but dreams are as real as Yarnham. They're just the plane of the Great Ones, is how I take it. But I think the great pool of insight lets you mold it like a dream world depending on whose dreaming it. Like it's a real place and dimension but crafted like you think a dream is crafted. And the Nightmare of Mensis is all of the elite Mensis scholars' place to do all their shit (and attempt to create a great one via Mother Brain). Micolash, as his namesake goes, is the host of the dream and the primary manufacturer? Like Gehrman is the one whose based off of the Hunter's Dream, Micolash is tied to the Nightmare of Mensis. But once it's "created", it exists as all other things do for the Great Ones. Which is why it doesn't go away after he dies. Also he's as dead as any dead person is in Yarnham but his mind is alive in Mensis so that's why he freaks out when you kill him in the nightmare/dream.
There is a weird bit that comes into play though. When you kill the Wet Nurse and Moon Presence you get the Nightmare Slain message so I assume the Great Ones have a very direct influence in crafting the dreams (even though they are based on the "hosts" memories and experiences).
More importantly, you don't get the message from killing the Wet Nurse. The delay is very intentional and it's why you keep hearing the baby crying. Mergo is who "dies" and he is the one managing the nightmare, or however you want to think about it.
There's a lot to talk about and the lore is cool so I'll stop mentioning that stuff, but there is one last thing I'd like to bring up.
Yarnham is weird. Not the city but the Queen. So a *huge* part of the game is still birth and Great Ones losing their child and all that fun stuff. But what's weird to me is that the phrase keeps mentioned that a Great One loses its child and yearns for a surrogate, someone else to bear a child for them. One confusing part is the loss of their child. How and why does that happen? Is that process important? It's weirdly vague in that manner.
Anyway, Yarnham was the chosen surrogate and she had Mergo but as it's strongly hinted at, it seems he was a stillbirth? Maybe? He died but didn't die because he clearly exists in some manner for the great ones. I thiiiiink it's tied to Oedon who is as formless as Mergo is and I imagine that Mergo was to be Oedon's descendant in some manner? Mergo exists in voice only after all. But the still birth part is weird cause it's obvious Yarnham is mourning or morose or distraught (plus the blood all over her stomach and abdomen). Why? It seemed successful I think? Mergo exists in some form. You can even hear him in the "physical" world with enough insight (I think insight doesn't even matter actually). But yah Mergo is weird.
__
Oh one more thing cause it's a really intriguing relationship. Why were Laurence and Gehrman close? Clearly Gehrman doesn't know Laurence transformed into a beast and died. What was their plan? It seems to imply that Laurence knew Gehrman got locked into the dream (or at least he was "taken" in some manner) since Gehrman is waiting on Laurence to do *something*. Maybe Laurence's goal was to find Paleblood to free Gehrman or something like that. Dunno. It's real weird. But Gehrman is trapped by the Moon Presence and he's obviously been so for a loooooong time given his depression over being in the dream for so long.
A slight confusing bit is why he is eager to "free" you of the dream instead of attempting to help you in some manner. Maybe he's trying to do you a favor and just get you out and being selfless in that manner. I think the workshop lit aflame is Gehrman's doing and sort of trying to get the Moon Presence riled up. I don't understand the exact relationship. Maybe it only shows up if there is no other "host" for the dream? I imagine Gehrman thinks you will just succumb to the Moon Presence so he doesn't want you locked for eternity in the dream. I also imagine that he knew Laurence knew how to overcome it and that's why he is solely waiting on him. But then you come along and if you don't have the cords and beat Gehrman, you are forever locked in the dream (BAD END) and if you have the cords then you transcend the hunt (SQUID END). Either way Gehrman is freed to rest eternally (GOOD END).
I don't think so,but I belive that Annalise drank the blood of the Queen and that's how she got her immortality.
you could actually kill Annalise even without Alfred's help...lol
maybe they're incapable of reproducing in general which is why they've turned their attention into our women/species
great post!
maybe they're incapable of reproducing in general which is why they've turned their attention into our women/species
great post!
Even Alfred can't really kill her.The remaining flesh still lives on.
This is real heavy speculation but it might be a translation thing. Maybe it's meant to say they are simply unable to reproduce? But there's 0 evidence one way or the other so it's just a leap. Would like to see some others try to translate from kanji or whatever it's written in for Japan.
I need something on Iosefka and her imposter, man >_<
I don't think there's enough solid evidence in the game, but even a convincing theory would be enough for me.
How does the imposter know so much and have Willem's cord, and what is the importance of the real Iosefka, for her blood to be in the Nightmare?
I guess a simple "she's an special blood saint of the Choir" would be enough for the real Iosefka, but the imposter, she's possibly from Cainhurst (makes Numbing Mist and could be related to Annalise and Arianna, since she also gets a baby stand), dresses as the Choir and even use their tools, which could be easily explained by her just taking it from Iosefka, but also makes more Celestial dudes, which is Upper Cathedral knowledge.
How/why does she know so much? Could the removal of Willem's cord be what left him in that state?
About translations, I was thinking about that yesterday, about what if the Third Umbilical Cord is actually the correct one, instead of One Third of Umbilical Cord? The Lecture Building note says "Three third cords", after all, and it seems quite silly to me that no one before you would have the brilliant idea of making one entire thing using three thirds of thing. If it's just a "Third cord", instead of "One third of a cord", then using three of them to be able to transcend the hunt could be harder to figure out.
And Hunt the Great Ones. Hunt the Great Ones, that note still makes no sense to me.
I don't think there's enough solid evidence in the game, but even a convincing theory would be enough for me.
How does the imposter know so much and have Willem's cord, and what is the importance of the real Iosefka, for her blood to be in the Nightmare?
I guess a simple "she's an special blood saint of the Choir" would be enough for the real Iosefka, but the imposter, she's possibly from Cainhurst (makes Numbing Mist and could be related to Annalise and Arianna, since she also gets a baby stand), dresses as the Choir and even use their tools, which could be easily explained by her just taking it from Iosefka, but also makes more Celestial dudes, which is Upper Cathedral knowledge.
How/why does she know so much? Could the removal of Willem's cord be what left him in that state?
About translations, I was thinking about that yesterday, about what if the Third Umbilical Cord is actually the correct one, instead of One Third of Umbilical Cord? The Lecture Building note says "Three third cords", after all, and it seems quite silly to me that no one before you would have the brilliant idea of making one entire thing using three thirds of thing. If it's just a "Third cord", instead of "One third of a cord", then using three of them to be able to transcend the hunt could be harder to figure out.
And Hunt the Great Ones. Hunt the Great Ones, that note still makes no sense to me.
touche
You know, I actually went straight to Alfred after killing her and handed him the envelope, and he still pretended that he was the one who killed her
From Software I'm one step ahead of you baby
Yeah we need someone with the access to the Japanese texts!
KittenMaster
Member
Yeah there are a few continuity quirks like how you can see the "Behold! A Paleblood Sky!" message before the Palebood Sky actually appears.
EDIT: whoops, forgot this was the unmarked spoilers thread.
TheLetdown
Member
This, and months were constructed from lunar cycles. Equating Mensis with menstruation is just deliberately ignoring the more obvious intent in favor of superficial clues, like, there's blood and there's a cycle! Seems hollow and unlikely to provide a fruitful analysis, to me.
Something that has been on my mind after recently completing the game with the "true" ending is the goddess Artemis / Diana. She's the Goddess of the hunt, and of the moon, that watches over childbirth and is associated with fertility.
I need to go back to the Iliad and find some other stories with her and let it bang around my head a bit. It might be worth seeing how she's incorporated or subverted, if at all.
I think that's probably intentional. They do lock the doors that would let you explore the rest of Yahar'gul, the enemy placement changes, the Hypogean Gaol lamp breaks later on, it's hard for me to believe that they would change so many much more important things and just forget a note. They probably wanted to give us this foreshadowing and start questioning the storyline. For me, personally, Hypogean Gaol was when the story started to take shape, and I realized that beasts were just the tip of the iceberg.
OniBarubary
Banned
I'm pretty sure that the surrogate line and all the baby lines regarding Old Ones is that they can in fact reproduce and have children but they are always doomed to die, either by stillbirth or whatever cosmic hoodoo. Maybe baby Old Ones just don't live long. The whole reason they seek a surrogate is to have a baby Old One that will live to maturity and become a Great Old One and not just die.
That's how I took it, otherwise the lines would mean that they seek surrogates to have Great One babies that will always die which...makes no sense why they would seek a surrogate out just to have dead babies.
Edit: Also, to steal something someone else noticed a while back, I never saw that Gehrman's got a peg leg. Maybe the Old Hunter's Bone is his? It compounds on stuff I've said before but I just never noticed his leg.
That's how I took it, otherwise the lines would mean that they seek surrogates to have Great One babies that will always die which...makes no sense why they would seek a surrogate out just to have dead babies.
Edit: Also, to steal something someone else noticed a while back, I never saw that Gehrman's got a peg leg. Maybe the Old Hunter's Bone is his? It compounds on stuff I've said before but I just never noticed his leg.
Interesting. If I recall correctly, Artemis also holds dominion over beasts especially dogs (werewolves) and stags (Church beasts seem to have a tendency to grow antlers) and the treatment of diseases that commonly afflict women.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Hmm, how does Alfred react if you kill her before giving him the summons?
like nothing happened :/
it's a shame, because it would've been nice to fight him because I denied him the chance of avenging his master or something
Orochinagis
Member
I believe iosefta and the imposter are from the choir, one dediced to heal people while the other one continue to experiment on her patients to reproduce more celestial with an unknown propurse, you can see countless discarded experiments when you climp up the ladders.
If you send her survivors, those celestial will be neutral unlike the default hostiles ones so she was close on her experiments to become pregnant
About the cords maybe there is an extra one because one can be easily missable and you can no longer get it after the red moon phase so they added and extra one just in case.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I'm playing the Japanese version and it absolutely is "Third" (as in "the third" among multiple umbilical cords). No idea where "one third" came from. Maybe it's because you need only to consume three of them?
My understanding is that it's just another umbilical cord that connects the person to the old blood or the aliens or whatever. No idea what the "second" umbilical cord would be in this case, though.
But that doesn't really solve anything :C
How does she have Willem's cord? Why does she give you Numbing Mist, something from Cainhurst?
About the cords, reading the descriptions again makes me even more convinced that "Third Umbilical Cord" is the correct, the descriptions always refer to them as cords, not pieces of cords, the one from the Abandoned Workshop even says "The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon".
And it really makes absolutely no sense that it would take them that long to figure out that a full cord would be better than one third of it. Now, the conclusion that you need three full cords is something that would require more research.
There you go, that makes a lot more sense, then.
Third Umbilical Cord is the UK version, IIRC, while the US version calls them "One Third of Umbilical Cord", which makes no sense.
"The Third Umbilical Cord" is how this Great One umbilical cord is called. The image also looks like an entire thing, it doesn't look like 1/3 of anything.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Really strange... did they have different editors for the US/UK versions? Maybe it was just a case of a translation being updated and not getting reflected onto the US text files.
Could be, that makes sense.
Since the voice work was also done in the UK, it's fair to assume that it's the "official translation", if there are any other items where they diverge.
Monochromaticx
Member
"there is an enemy in the game with its back cut open and stretched over its head"
which enemy is that??
AlphaDragoon
Member
Blood-Starved Beast.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
It's one "3rd Umbilical Cord", not "1/3 Umbilical Cord".
Pretty sneaky, I like it.
Pretty sneaky, I like it.
Monochromaticx
Member
Brerlappin
Member
Look up The Pale Blood Hunt, it's a google doc that chronicles most of the lore. Well written, concise.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
While studying for my final, I notice in the notes Amygdala is written down. And when that region of the brain is stimulated it causes fear and anxiety. Welp pretty sure amygdala in bloodborne did cause some players fear and anxiety
Honestly, one third of umbilical cord makes more sense; you need to eat three of them to trigger the real final boss, and it makes sense you can only recover part of it each time.
Third umbilical cord is...what? where is the second umbilical cord? Why would you need to eat three of them, instead of just the one.
Third umbilical cord is...what? where is the second umbilical cord? Why would you need to eat three of them, instead of just the one.
Paleblood Sky refers to the sky before killing Rom. Miyazaki said so himself on the interview.
Pale = White
The skybox is looks just like a normal fullmoon sky pre-Rom. It is dark with the WHITE light of the moon covering it.
That's why after you kill Rom, it is not referred to as the Paleblood Sky anymore.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Oh I see, that's a pity.
I tried avoiding spoilers on the OT thread but no one answers so I'm coming here. Can anyone explain The Old One to me? It's gross. I mean, the story goes over my head in this game anyway but I'd like to know that guys deal. Plus the maidens in that fight, nice homage to the Tower Knight in Demon's Soułs.
You mean The One Reborn? Current theory is that the maidens were attempting to summon a Great One, but it was only partially successful before you interrupt the ritual.
Unfortunately there isn't a ton of lore about what happened in Yar'Ghul before you got there.
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