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Paid Skyrim mods being removed from Steam

I don't get paid for my time and effort when I do charity work, how's this any different? If they don't want to put time and effort into a mod and not get paid, then simply, don't do it?

No one is forcing them to do it. And guess what, if they don't create a mod, someone else will

Ya'll are acting like these people are slave labours who don't get paid for working when in fact it's just people creating mods in their free time because they want to

cBj1LTf.png


Some people want to make creating mods more than just something they do on their free time. Who are you to say that activity is not okay? Why does modding have to be just for the funz. Why can't people make some money doing something they want to do?

And it isn't like players don't receive benefits. The story regarding garry's mod is a pretty good example of a product people enjoyed becoming much better once it received financial support.
 

Nymerio

Member
An optional donation system would work incredibly well on Steam. Got some steamwallet cash from selling a few cards? Give it to modders whose work you enjoy. Mind you, if they added Steam badges for donating X and Y amounts then it'd work even better.

Also, there's no need to be rude to people who don't want to pay for something they've always gotten for free. It's not exactly an easy change.

That seems incredibly optimistic. If people can get something for free they'll take it for free and invest that money into something that would otherwise cost them something.
 
I hate the sarcastic "good thing people can't get paid for their work" type comments.
This isn't some great injustice wrought upon starving artists. Nobody gets into modding expecting to make money and this isn't taking food of their tables. There is a part of life that isn't about making money, that's about enjoying what you're doing, enjoying enriching other people's lives. Tons of people do it, put on free concerts, plays, organise various types of events, competitions etc. Hell, even moderate these forums. It's a good thing, not something that needs to be corrected.

Lol. Paid mods were on Steam for a few days and countless modders jumped at the very first opportunity they had to monetise what they'd done (and many didn't, too). Maybe you should let the modders decide why they're doing what they do, eh?
 

aku:jiki

Member
My mods require the DLCs as dependancies and I'm amazed that there's still a couple of people complaining about that.
The Compendium never works for me and causes crashes. I hate you and want a refund!

While it is visible, it is the 4th button on a row at the opposite side of Download, on very top right of the screen, on a site where you don't go with your Steam wallet purse strings already loosened
Furthermore, no one actually uses that download button. You have to go to the actual download section to make sure you're downloading the proper version (resolution, compatability, options, etc). The green button up top just downloads the latest upload in the version history and that one might be all kinds of wrong for your setup. That download button is something you use for a few days after you just start modding, before any thoughts of donating for good work are even close to popping up, then you learn how the site works and never look at that section again. I honestly didn't even remember that the donate button is up there.
 

eot

Banned
Lol. Paid mods were on Steam for a few days and countless modders jumped at the very first opportunity they had to monetise what they'd done (and many didn't, too). Maybe you should let the modders decide why they're doing what they do, eh?

Retroactively being paid for something you made says nothing about the intent with which you made it. Fact is that four years ago there was no way of making money directly from Skyrim mods and if you started modding hoping you make money that way you were stupid.
 

Nordicus

Member
Surely the only reason you'd combine them like this is to get people to donate before they've downloaded it, no?
Yes and no. If it makes people donate before they download, then hey that's great, but the main objective is to make people think that donations are the norm rather than exception.

Like, once you have downloaded, the button would simply change to "Donate", potentially also tracking how much you've already given.

Too blunt of a solution? Maybe. But it's still better than the complete and utter modding wild west the Skyrim Steam Workshop was for a moment. Also comparatively noncommittal on all sides compared to standard purchases
 

Drazgul

Member
Lol sometimes it feels like it is, Durante and others fix games for us out of their own free will and time and they "donate" the files to us so we can play our games.

I can only speak for myself, but back when I did MW and Oblivion mods, I did those for myself, first and foremost. The fact that people downloaded them and even liked them was just an added bonus, nothing more. I dunno, maybe it's different for the modders who do fixes and tools rather than content stuff.
 
Retroactively being paid for something you made says nothing about the intent with which you made it. Fact is that four years ago there was no way of making money directly from Skyrim mods and if you started modding hoping you make money that way you were stupid.

Obviously. But it tells you something about how they feel about it. If they'd wanted to keep it free, they could have. That was the default, in fact. They chose not to. I'm just saying that maybe you shouldn't be telling them what "that part of life" is about, for them.

Yes and no. If it makes people donate before they download, then hey that's great, but the main objective is to make people think that donations are the norm rather than exception.

Well, you say "that's great" but that's functionally identical to a purchas at that point. I think if they can associate the two, that'd be great - it's effectively a pay-as-you-go style of patronage. But I'm not sure why that's mutually exclusive to just being able to offer it for payment up front. Let the modders decide how they'd rather monetise it. Maybe "the market" will reward the donation ones.
 
I can only speak for myself, but back when I did MW and Oblivion mods, I did those for myself, first and foremost. The fact that people downloaded them and even liked them was just an added bonus, nothing more. I dunno, maybe it's different for the modders who do fixes and tools rather than content stuff.

You still allowed the files to be downloaded, I mean if we still want to run with the charity analogy then you could compare it to donating a pair of shoes, you bought them at the time for yourself because you liked them and then afterwards gave them away to others who love the shoes. lol
 

Hayvic

Member
I foresee a name change in case of a future implementation. Mods will stay mods and remain free. Valve and their partners will introduce a new name for paid mods. Something like conmunity dlc or CDLC. Bam, no more outrage.
 
Well, you say "that's great" but that's functionally identical to a purchas at that point. I think if they can associate the two, that'd be great - it's effectively a pay-as-you-go style of patronage. But I'm not sure why that's mutually exclusive to just being able to offer it for payment up front. Let the modders decide how they'd rather monetise it. Maybe "the market" will reward the donation ones.

You keep taking about "The Market". I don't think you realise how hollow that sounds when it was going to be entirely unregulated and thus be flooded with shovelware and scams. That's the "market" when there is no curation or quality control. You see the junkmail that are jammed into your mailbox? THAT's free market. That's where the desire to scam people leads to flooding of alleged mods, just because it cost next to nothing to do so. "The Market" didn't remove spam, didn't remove junk mail, and definitely didn't remove shovelware. Your mystical "Market" isn't what you think it is.
 
You keep taking about "The Market". I don't think you realise how hollow that sounds when it was going to be entirely unregulated and thus be flooded with shovelware and scams. That's the "market" when there is no curation or quality control. You see the junkmail that are jammed into your mailbox? THAT's free market. That's where the desire to scam people leads to flooding of alleged mods, just because it cost next to nothing to do so. "The Market" didn't remove spam, didn't remove junk mail, and definitely didn't remove shovelware. Your mystical "Market" isn't what you think it is.

Would you buy these mystery, magical mods with no proof of functionality? Or would you simply stick with free ones?

Edit: I'd like to point out that I was proposing a 12-hour refund policy.
 
Would you buy these mystery, magical mods with no proof of functionality? Or would you simply stick with free ones?

They both have no proof of functionality. More importantly, 99.99% of the paid mods would end up being entirely literal junk, just because Valve had no intention of policing it. "The Market" will never cause the removal of the junk mods because it doesn't cost the junk mods anything to be posted. The only way the junk mods could be removed is by human intervention. Nothing "The Market" can do about it.
 
They both have no proof of functionality. More importantly, 99.99% of the paid mods would end up being entirely literal junk, just because Valve had no intention of policing it. "The Market" will never cause the removal of the junk mods because it doesn't cost the junk mods anything to be posted. The only way the junk mods could be removed is by human intervention. Nothing "The Market" can do about it.

I made an edit above, but I'd point out that I did propose a 12 hour refund policy.

Mobile phone App Stores like Android's have a bunch of crap on there, but do you struggle to find good apps? Do you find yourself paying for crappy apps that don't work often? A chunky refund window will mean making apps with the intetion of scamming people simply won't be worthwhile.
 

kafiend

Member
It will never cease to amaze me how Valve managed to turn a long existing community based bunch of hobbyists into an army of starving artists with no way out of their dire personal financial situations overnight.
 

Sijil

Member
I foresee a name change in case of a future implementation. Mods will stay mods and remain free. Valve and their partners will introduce a new name for paid mods. Something like conmunity dlc or CDLC. Bam, no more outrage.

Kind of like premium modules that Bioware used for Neverwinter Nights. Mods will remain free yet Bethsoft will introduce premium modules by the community.
 
It will never cease to amaze me how Valve managed to turn a long existing community based bunch of hobbyists into an army of starving artists with no way out of their dire personal financial situations overnight.

What are you even talking about? They didn't make anyone charge a cent, that decision was solely with the modders.
 

oneils

Member
I still don't get the reaction to paid mods. I've read a lot of the threads and rationales for being against it but it still doesn't make sense to me.

I wonder what valve comes up with next.
 

Nordicus

Member
Well, you say "that's great" but that's functionally identical to a purchas at that point. I think if they can associate the two, that'd be great - it's effectively a pay-as-you-go style of patronage. But I'm not sure why that's mutually exclusive to just being able to offer it for payment up front. Let the modders decide how they'd rather monetise it. Maybe "the market" will reward the donation ones.
Give 5 years under the system i described and maybe we'll get there to unofficial content and mods that demand (not just ask) payment up front without bringing up another damn shitstorm. It's all in the presentation.

I mean, if you enjoy that kind of rage we had just now that's fine, but I'm running out of pop corn and prefer a steady approach as opposed to switching from gear 1 to 6
 

Thorgal

Member
Modding games since the old days has always been a labor of love and passion for a game and the willingness to share that passion with it's community , not to get a porsche in their Garage .

Besides , if a moder is really skilled and would like to be paid for his or her work then they should look to get a job in the industry or become an indie developer ( which i assume most of the guys who make some the bigger game mods already are ) so to me asking for paid mods is just silly .
 
Give 5 years under the system i described and maybe we'll get there to unofficial content and mods that demand payment up front without bringing up another damn shitstorm. It's all in the presentation.

I mean, if you enjoy that kind of rage we had just now that's fine, but I'm running out of pop corn and prefer a steady approach as opposed to switching from gear 1 to 6

Well sure, the presentation wasn't great, but I think as a policy it really only needed a small tweak and it was fine. People mistake screaming and shitting up comments and game ratings for "voting with your wallet". They aren't the same thing.
 
The execution may have been flawed, but for all the comments about "mods should be free" or "why can't they just add a tip jar", why can't they be allowed to do whatever they want in regards to monetizing their work, including selling their work for a flat fee. No-one is obliged to pay for it. I'd love all mods to be free forever, but no-one should have any issue with an individual wanting to charge for his work, in any medium. Don't agree, don't buy it, doesn't make it wrong for them to sell it.
 
The execution may have been flawed, but for all the comments about "mods should be free" or "why can't they just add a tip jar", why can't they be allowed to do whatever they want in regards to monetizing their work, including selling their work for a flat fee. No-one is obliged to pay for it. I'd love all mods to be free forever, but no-one should have any issue with an individual wanting to charge for his work, in any medium. Don't agree, don't buy it, doesn't make it wrong for them to sell it.

Because quality control is near impossible as it is now. We only tolerate the problems with the mods because they are free. If it causes bugs we just remove them. Once you SELL something though? Most modders do not have a full time employee answering phones as tech support.
 
Because quality control is near impossible as it is now. We only tolerate the problems with the mods because they are free. If it causes bugs we just remove them. Once you SELL something though? Most modders do not have a full time employee answering phones as tech support.

That's because they've never had a real chance to sell their mods before. It would probably be real ugly at first, but they'd have to change to meet peoples expectations. But things aren't going to change if the status quo persists.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Because quality control is near impossible as it is now. We only tolerate the problems with the mods because they are free. If it causes bugs we just remove them. Once you SELL something though? Most modders do not have a full time employee answering phones as tech support.

This pretty much is the reason as to why money becomes troublesome as far as relations with the downloader (now a customer) is concerned. Mods are finicky in that you can never tell whether it'd be compatible or not to another mod unless the modders state them, and even then there's the fact that more mods will appear. Updates mean everything should be immediately compatible, etc.

That's because they've never had a real chance to sell their mods before. It would probably be real ugly at first, but they'd have to change to meet peoples expectations. But things aren't going to change if the status quo persists.

Slightly different, but couldn't we see this with a bunch of Early Access games?
 

Tenebrous

Member
Hooray, people can't get paid for their time and effort anymore!

/s (Added for you!)

But yeah... I wish they stuck with it a while longer. Good mods deserve reward, in my opinion, and while the cut was way too low, I would like to have seen refinement to the system over the coming months.

Oh well.
 

JNT

Member
I find it a damn shame that modders can't be reimbursed, even if it is their spare time they sink into their project. The proposed revenue split was questionable, but it's without a doubt a better deal for the modders than nothing.
 
That's because they've never had a real chance to sell their mods before. It would probably be real ugly at first, but they'd have to change to meet peoples expectations. But things aren't going to change if the status quo persists.

You don't understand. Often a Mod is made by just ONE PERSON. There is no possible way that modder could tech support all the problems by himself from potentially thousands of people, and there is no way he could earn enough to hire someone else to do it for him. This is flat out not going to happen. The only way this could be done is via centralised tech support offered by Bethesda, using the money from their 30% cut of the profits of all the paid mods. And this means Bethesda had to take charge and make sure these new 3rd party DLC are functional. This is something the modders just can't handle.
 
Mod makers can set up patreon accounts and get paid. They can also suggest people donate to a PayPal if they enjoy the mods.

Agreed. People who want to donate will do it through paypal links but forcing though Steam to buy them is not good and its just trying to monetize. Also the 25% share for modders is too low and for valve its too much.
 
Slightly different, but couldn't we see this with a bunch of Early Access games?

Heck, technically all games have that risk of if the developer will keep it updated. But obviously on the gaming side, things are pretty well established. Reputations are known quantities, and the legal side of it has been explored. Even still though, there are still releases that come out in a questionable state.

Early Access has been a bit 'riskier', take that spacebase example. Doublefine has been pretty trustworthy with actual releases, but has caused some trouble on the early access side of things.

Continuing along, paid mods would probably have been 'riskier', as none of them would have a history or reputation in a paid ecosystem. But obviously they can't build up that reputation without a paid ecosystem,

The whole 'Will mods be properly supported' argument is a good reason to show caution when paid mods arrive. But it's not a good reason to argue against paid mods in the first place because it's a chicken or the egg thing at that point.

You don't understand. Often a Mod is made by just ONE PERSON. There is no possible way that modder could tech support all the problems by himself from potentially thousands of people, and there is no way he could earn enough to hire someone else to do it for him. This is flat out not going to happen. The only way this could be done is via centralised tech support offered by Bethesda, using the money from their 30% cut of the profits of all the paid mods. And this means Bethesda had to take charge and make sure these new 3rd party DLC are functional. This is something the modders just can't handle.

I think you underestimate what modders are capable of, and besides, the complexity of mods can vary wildly. The amount of support necessary isn't going to be consistent enough for this to apply to everything.
 
You don't understand. Often a Mod is made by just ONE PERSON. There is no possible way that modder could tech support all the problems by himself from potentially thousands of people, and there is no way he could earn enough to hire someone else to do it for him. This is flat out not going to happen. The only way this could be done is via centralised tech support offered by Bethesda, using the money from their 30% cut of the profits of all the paid mods. And this means Bethesda had to take charge and make sure these new 3rd party DLC are functional. This is something the modders just can't handle.

As I've said, personally I don't even think this is an issue because you can opt not to buy it, but given how often this exact thing happens in the mobile phone market, with App's being developed by a single person across a mind-boggling array of hardware of operating systems, I'm not sure why you seem so convinced that it's not possible. Some of these apps are paid, some donation, some free. But it's absolutely possible.
 

Tenebrous

Member
Agreed. People who want to donate will do it through paypal links but forcing though Steam to buy them is not good and its just trying to monetize. Also the 25% share for modders is too low and for valve its too much.

Why not do the same for games themselves, then? After all, it's just content. Let people download for free, and put a donate button up there instead of a buy button.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Heck, technically all games have that risk of if the developer will keep it updated. But obviously on the gaming side, things are pretty well established. Reputations are known quantities, and the legal side of it has been explored. Even still though, there are still releases that come out in a questionable state.

Early Access has been a bit 'riskier', take that spacebase example. Doublefine has been pretty trustworthy with actual releases, but has caused some trouble on the early access side of things.

Continuing along, paid mods would probably have been 'riskier', as none of them would have a history or reputation in a paid ecosystem. But obviously they can't build up that reputation without a paid ecosystem,

The whole 'Will mods be properly supported' argument is a good reason to show caution when paid mods arrive. But it's not a good reason to argue against paid mods in the first place because it's a chicken or the egg thing at that point.

I think you underestimate what modders are capable of, and besides, the complexity of mods can vary wildly. The amount of support necessary isn't going to be consistent enough for this to apply to everything.

Yep.

I mentioned EA because there are plenty of "broken promises" in the EA side of things. And a lot of them haven't been picked up (see: Towns).
 
Doesn't the Paid Mods System make no sense anyone?

75% is going to Valve and Bethesda...So that $1.00 mod is not only going to get you $0.25?

So what if you make a mod, so good, its essentially a new game? $40? Who in the world is seriously going to pay that much for a mod? If your mod is that amazing, why do you even need Steam? Why not just put it only and have all the money going to your paypal account?

This system makes no sense? Who really wants this?

This is just Valve cashing in on the popularity and size of the Skyrim Modding Community. I place this bet now. That in the next three weeks we are going to see a backstep. Valve will say this was just a test and Bethesda will claim that they are disappointed and we are to blame

Warning! Warning! It's the "Didn't Read the OP" Klaxon! Warning! Warning!
 
The idea is fine, but you can't just throw a store on top of the existing mod scene and walk away. These are now products that deserve Q&A, customer service and tech support resources. A significant amount actually.
 

lazygecko

Member
Mod makers can set up patreon accounts and get paid. They can also suggest people donate to a PayPal if they enjoy the mods.

This is very shady ground and I'm pretty sure Bethesda has cracked down on modder patreons in the past. I also doubt they nor Valve would be willing to let modders list and encourage Paypal donations instead of the money going through Steam.

Nexusmods allows users to have a Paypal donation link as a button on mod pages, but people are explicitly forbidden from begging for donations on the mod description page, the comments section, or anywhere else on the site basically. They recently made a change so you can also have a donation reminder popup when you click the file download.
 

Nordicus

Member
Yep.

I mentioned EA because there are plenty of "broken promises" in the EA side of things. And a lot of them haven't been picked up (see: Towns).
And even in case of Early Access games, you still need a publisher or go through Greenlight to get on Steam to sell it. Now imagine all the games that didn't pass.

And now imagine all the mods that didn't go through Greenli- oh... hmm. Did the paid mods have any process like that? At all? I don't recall there being any
 

danm999

Member
As I've said, personally I don't even think this is an issue because you can opt not to buy it, but given how often this exact thing happens in the mobile phone market, with App's being developed by a single person across a mind-boggling array of hardware of operating systems, I'm not sure why you seem so convinced that it's not possible. Some of these apps are paid, some donation, some free. But it's absolutely possible.

They're not even clearing the low bar set up by mobile ecosystems though.

Apple, for instance, doesn't just let you throw anything up on the iOS store, even though some of the crap on there may make you think that's the case.

They actually require you to meet lengthy guidelines on functionality and if you fail to meet them, they'll reject your App.

Similarly, Google has a system in place for Android Apps.

So far as I can find, Valve had no such process. In fact, they've got this gem on their FAQ;

Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?
A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing.

So no, Valve was not approaching this remotely the same way.
 

Matty8787

Member
How about an extended use period? Say you get to use it free for a week and then after a week are prompted to donate with a slider to decide who gets the money, if not you can remove the mod?

Probably not the best idea, just thinking out loud.
 
cBj1LTf.png


Some people want to make creating mods more than just something they do on their free time. Who are you to say that activity is not okay? Why does modding have to be just for the funz. Why can't people make some money doing something they want to do?

And it isn't like players don't receive benefits. The story regarding garry's mod is a pretty good example of a product people enjoyed becoming much better once it received financial support.

Too bad. Since when has hobby game modders thought they had a home business doing that? It's not even in the spirit of what the whole thing is about.

For some reason, everyone thinks everything we do in our free time for fun should be somehow putting money in the bank. Putting up stupid rant videos on youtube, broadcasting themselves playing Starcraft, etc. This is just the next logical step. Valve and Bethesda were basically attempting to exploit this.
 

lazygecko

Member
Too bad. Since when has hobby game modders thought they had a home business doing that? It's not even in the spirit of what the whole thing is about.

For some reason, everyone thinks everything we do in our free time for fun should be somehow putting money in the bank. Putting up stupid rant videos on youtube, broadcasting themselves playing Starcraft, etc. This is just the next logical step. Valve and Bethesda were basically attempting to exploit this.

Well thankfully we live in a market economy where the viability of earning money from these things is not determined by the kind of mindset you have. People have been able to make money from modifying and creating content for plenty of different games for many years now, and status quos have been given time to be established in those markets over what people are willing to pay for and how much.
 
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