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dex3108 · May 23, 2015

Last year AMD accused Nvidia for sabotaging AMD cards in Watch Dogs:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...d-potentially-the-entire-pc-gaming-ecosystem/

Then Nvidia issued statement:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...ut-gameworks-amd-optimization-and-watch-dogs/

Almost exactly one year later AMD made another accusation:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...dia-hairworks-really-sabotage-amd-performance

Then original writer from Forbes (Jason Evangelho who is great writer BTW) wrote a bit angry article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...ng-about-the-witcher-3-and-nvidias-hairworks/

And after all of that AMD decided to make video statement that you can watch here:

http://www.twitch.tv/amd/v/5334646

Their new statement has few issues for example they claim that TressFX works great on Nvidia hardware in Tomb Raider.

funkystudent · May 23, 2015

It seems pretty clear what Nvidia is doing.

It sucks for those users since since now every time you see the Nvidia "the way its meant to be played" branding on a PC game its pretty much a guarantee it will be a mess on AMD. Wticher 3 and Project Cars seem to be the most egregious examples of this now.

Deadstar · May 23, 2015

This is super scummy and as an nvidia user it makes me very angry. I usually prefer nvidia but I may switch to AMD now.

RP912 · May 23, 2015

Smh disgusting. It all makes sense especially the Project CARS fiasco :/.

Renekton · May 23, 2015

dex3108 said:
And after all of that AMD decided to make video statement that you can watch here:

http://www.twitch.tv/amd/v/5334646

Their new statement has few issues for example they claim that TressFX works great on Nvidia hardware in Tomb Raider.

I'm still #teamred (for now), but this seems like sour grapes to me.

In the end, it is just competition.

oxidax · May 23, 2015

Yea it didn't bother me before because I knew after a couple of game updates and driver updates I would be able to play smoothly again, but its really starting to piss me off now. We should have both Nvidia and AMD technology on every PC game period. Each one with its own thing. Im tired of the exclusive technology bullshit ruining the experience.

SpecialAgentZ · May 23, 2015

Should spend less with lies and more with their driver development.

Chris_C · May 23, 2015

I'm guessing most posters haven't read the articles yet? The Forbes piece argues that AMD had the option to approach CDPR for years before launch about TressFX integration, and didn't till 2 months before release. It also states that a Reddit user got Hairworks running properly on AMD hardware with a simple profile update, while AMD hasn't released a new driver in almost half a year (that last past can't be true, surely?)

Deadstar · May 23, 2015

Chris_C said:
I'm guessing most posters haven't read the articles yet? The Forbes piece argues that AMD had the option to approach CDPR for years before launch about TressFX integration, and didn't till 2 months before release. It also states that a Reddit user got Hairworks running properly on AMD hardware with a simple profile update, while AMD hasn't released a new driver in almost half a year (that last past can't be true, surely?)

My post was in regards to hairworks causing unnecessary strain on nvidia GPU's so that people upgrade their video card to the latest and greatest nvidia card.

Wag · May 23, 2015

But the problem with Witcher 3 isn't just with AMD cards, it's with Nvidia cards too. It runs like shit on Kepler based cards. A $200 card (960) is outperforming a $1000 one (6GB Titan). So it seems like Nvidia is purposely crippling their last gen cards to promote their current gen ones.

Beerman462 · May 23, 2015

Hairworks can be made to work on AMD cards with a small performance hit. These niche effects are hardly worth raising a fuss

Wag said:
But the problem with Witcher 3 isn't just with AMD cards, it's with Nvidia cards too. It runs like shit on Kepler based cards. A $200 card (960) is outperforming a $1000 one (6GB Titan). So it seems like Nvidia is purposely crippling their last gen cards to promote their current gen ones.

Sounds like the VSR situation on AMD atm. PC GPU manufactures have to push those upgrades, even though graphics have stagnated a bit. Couldn't Nvidia cards force the effect the same way AMD can?

Crisium · May 23, 2015

It's a scummy practice for Nvidia to essentially pay to sabotage their competitors performance. Nvidia actually gets involved with game development with the explicit intent of harming performance on competitors hardware, and the worse part is some people (Forbes) take this as an indication to buy more Nvidia and further support this practice. And the great irony is that Nvidia's Kepler tanks the most in GameWorks. GCN was here before Kepler, and will be here after Maxwell. YMMV with Maxwell, good luck when Pascal comes out,

The Llama · May 23, 2015

Just IMO (as someone who has owned AMD GPU's for the past few years) I think that AMD had some legitimate complaints about the way nVidia does business, but they say they say this stuff really comes off like they're just whining.

SmartWaffles · May 23, 2015

If my memory is correct, AMD didn't update their driver till GTAV came out and that is a beta driver, also TressFX worked like ass at launch in TR2013. While NVIDIA is constantly updating their driver with new features that actually benefits their users.

On the other hand The Witcher 3 mostly works great on AMD cards and there are already proof that Hairworks is usable on AMD cards as well.

tuxfool · May 23, 2015

dex3108 said:
Their new statement has few issues for example they claim that TressFX works great on Nvidia hardware in Tomb Raider.

It does work great. Apparently they approached CDPr about implementing tressfx, but were told that it was too late.

Honestly looking at hair in Hairworks I don't see a lot of significant differences from TressFx. Obviously Hairworks supported things like fur from the start which were added to TressFX in 3.0.

I don't know. It would be nice to have it especially considering it is a lot more lightweight than Hairworks.

Renekton · May 23, 2015

Wag said:
But the problem with Witcher 3 isn't just with AMD cards, it's with Nvidia cards too. It runs like shit on Kepler based cards. A $200 card (960) is outperforming a $1000 one (6GB Titan). So it seems like Nvidia is purposely crippling their last gen cards to promote their current gen ones.

Does it suck on Kepler?

Seems like 780Ti owners are still happy in the Performance Thread.

Cerity · May 23, 2015

Chris_C said:
I'm guessing most posters haven't read the articles yet? The Forbes piece argues that AMD had the option to approach CDPR for years before launch about TressFX integration, and didn't till 2 months before release. It also states that a Reddit user got Hairworks running properly on AMD hardware with a simple profile update, while AMD hasn't released a new driver in almost half a year (that last past can't be true, surely?)

They haven't released WHQL certified drivers for awhile now. They release beta drivers pretty much every month or so.

tuxfool · May 23, 2015

SmartWaffles said:
If my memory is correct, AMD didn't update their driver till GTAV came out and that is a beta driver, also TressFX worked like ass at launch in TR2013. While NVIDIA is constantly updating their driver with new features that actually benefits their users.

On the other hand The Witcher 3 mostly works great on AMD cards and there are already proof that Hairworks is usable on AMD cards as well.

TressFX was really heavy back in 2013. Version 2.0 however, was lightweight enough to include it in the ps4 version of the game. I shudder to think what Hairworks' performance is on a ps4.

Arttemis · May 23, 2015

Nvidia's tactics have always churned my stomach. Pushing their proprietary tech that has no discernible improvement over the open TressFX, but cuts performance in half... gross.

dex3108 · May 23, 2015

tuxfool said:
It does work great. Apparently they approached CDPr about implementing tressfx, but were told that it was too late.

Honestly looking at hair in Hairworks I don't see a lot of significant differences from TressFx. Obviously Hairworks supported things like fur from the start which were added to TressFX in 3.0.

I don't know. It would be nice to have it especially considering it is a lot more lightweight than Hairworks.

When TR launched TressFX performance on Nvidia hardware was poor because they didn't have build before game was released so they could optimize drivers. After few patches and new driver situation was better.

RenegadeXV8 · May 23, 2015

Chris_C said:
I'm guessing most posters haven't read the articles yet? The Forbes piece argues that AMD had the option to approach CDPR for years before launch about TressFX integration, and didn't till 2 months before release. It also states that a Reddit user got Hairworks running properly on AMD hardware with a simple profile update, while AMD hasn't released a new driver in almost half a year (that last past can't be true, surely?)

Last WHQL driver was December 2014, but last beta driver was last month, and there's an upcoming one to address Project CARS and Witcher 3. Their beta drivers are pretty stable anyway, there's no reason not to use them.

Wag said:
But the problem with Witcher 3 isn't just with AMD cards, it's with Nvidia cards too. It runs like shit on Kepler based cards. A $200 card (960) is outperforming a $1000 one (6GB Titan). So it seems like Nvidia is purposely crippling their last gen cards to promote their current gen ones.

That's exactly the point AMD is trying to make: Nvidia would rather lower performance for everyone just as long as it affects AMD the most.

Of course Nvidia will always deny this so it ends up being a 'he said she said' situation.

Renekton said:
Does it suck on Kepler?

Seems like 780Ti owners are still happy in the Performance Thread.

780 Ti is supposed to be around 10% faster than a 290X. but in Witcher 3 a 290X performs 20-30% better.

Wag · May 23, 2015

Renekton said:
Does it suck on Kepler?

Seems like 780Ti owners are still happy in the Performance Thread.

Yes it's awful. I run 3 6GB Titans in SLI @ 4k/60Hz and I struggle to get 30FPS even with hairworks off and some of the features turned down. It's so bad the voiceovers are out of sync during the rendered cutscenes.

Beerman462 · May 23, 2015

Arttemis said:
Nvidia's tactics have always churned my stomach. Pushing their proprietary tech that has no discernible improvement over the open TressFX, but cuts performance in half... gross.

I remember back in the day Nvidia was cheating. It was vs 3DFX. They claimed to be using 32bit color, but it was found out they were only at 24 bit or something like that. Along with optimizing drivers for artificial benchmarks like 3D mark. I used Nvidia from the Geforce 2 to 460GTX. The 7870XT pulled me away. AMD has done their best to push me away and Nvidia hasn't been a shining beacon either.

Wag said:
Yes it's awful. I run 3 6GB Titans in SLI @ 4k/60Hz and I struggle to get 30FPS even with hairworks off and some of the features turned down. It's so bad the voiceovers are out of sync during the rendered cutscenes.

Sounds like a multi GPU issue. I will never use multi GPUs for this reason.

Painguy · May 23, 2015

Seems like peeps are saying AMD performance can be fixed by some profile fixes...sooooo....idk mang...

Hip Hop · May 23, 2015

Wag said:
Yes it's awful. I run 3 6GB Titans in SLI @ 4k/60Hz and I struggle to get 30FPS even with hairworks off and some of the features turned down. It's so bad the voiceovers are out of sync during the rendered cutscenes.

What?

That's crazy.

I've got a single GTX 670 2gb and it runs pretty much on Ultra.

EDIT:

oh 4k. NVM!

Revolutionary · May 23, 2015

RenegadeXV8 said:
Last WHQL driver was December 2014, but last beta driver was last month, and there's an upcoming one to address Project CARS and Witcher 3.

AMD claims they've had a working build with Hairworks for 2 months. I hate to tell people how they should do their jobs, but they should probably work harder to get those drivers available on day one of release, like Nvidia does. I recall AndyNV posting in detail on GAF how they ready up drivers for release (and how harrowing it can be to receive code very late in the process).. but yet they still make it happen 99% of the time. Those driver optimizations are crucial, you can't expect a brand new game to run flawlessly on months old drivers.

Beerman462 · May 23, 2015

Painguy said:
Seems like peeps are saying AMD performance can be fixed by some profile fixes...sooooo....idk mang...

AMD works great. You can use some fixes if you really want hairworks, but so far it's not worth it. The standard hair solution is really good.

Skyzard · May 23, 2015

Renekton said:
Does it suck on Kepler?

Seems like 780Ti owners are still happy in the Performance Thread.

Just about - 38fps lock, no hairworks, high foliage and shadows, rest on ultra, 1440p to improve look of vegetation. TI SC. Crashes with overclocking since the patch.

Renekton · May 23, 2015

Beerman462 said:
Sounds like a multi GPU issue. I will never use multi GPUs for this reason.

Not sure about that, Techspot's benchmark article said Witcher 3's SLI support and scaling were good.

Justinh · May 23, 2015

dex3108 said:
Then original writer from Forbes (Jason Evangelho who is great writer BTW) wrote a bit angry article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...ng-about-the-witcher-3-and-nvidias-hairworks/

Damn, he went a little hard on AMD, lol.

But what I’m seeing now is a company who keeps insisting their sole competitor make their job easier “for the good of PC gaming.” And I see said competitor continuing to innovate with graphics technologies that make games more beautiful. And I see promises like the concept of “OpenWorks” laying stagnant a full year after they’re hyped up. And I see AMD’s desktop GPU market share continue to slip and think to myself “maybe this is not a coincidence.”

Seems kinda weird since he looked to be on the "other side of the argument" with the Watch_Dogs articles. Interesting read. though.

CassidyIzABeast · May 23, 2015

As an AMD owner, anytime I see that Nvidia logo on boot up I know there's some setting that's gonna tank my performance to sub 30fps.

tuxfool · May 23, 2015

dex3108 said:
When TR launched TressFX performance on Nvidia hardware was poor because they didn't have build before game was released so they could optimize drivers. After few patches and new driver situation was better.

Sure. The technology behind it is also a lot more open. Full source is always provided. AFAIK, while nvidia says they provide source access to hairworks most developers use black box libraries still.

There was an interesting article on the different methodologies behind each Manufacturers (AMD and Nvidia) label program. Nvidia support is generally regarded as more robust because they often do the work for the developer and optimisations happen at the driver level. AMD typically favours implementing optimisation at the engine level. This was the source of the WatchDogs row last year. AMD wanted to provide support but couldn't because it was a gameworks title so they couldn't have source access.

Typically AMD gaming evolved games work well on both Nvidia and AMD cards. The same hasn't been true of Gameworks titles.

m_shortpants · May 23, 2015

I feel for AMD. Both nvidia and Intel have been doing some serious anti competitive practices for a while.

Renekton · May 23, 2015

CassidyIzABeast said:
As an AMD owner, anytime I see that Nvidia logo on boot up I know there's some setting that's gonna tank my performance to sub 30fps.

that female voice in Nvidia intro should just say "rekt" if it detects AMD card

BlackNinja · May 23, 2015

161 day old drivers is definitely a sign of not prioritizing the company's goals. Company valuation being as low as it is indicates something not quite right with the way it's being driven as well..

RenegadeXV8 · May 23, 2015

Revolutionary said:
AMD claims they've had a working build with Hairworks for 2 months. I hate to tell people how they should do their jobs, but they should probably work harder to get those drivers available on day one of release, like Nvidia does. I recall AndyNV posting in detail on GAF how they ready up drivers for release (and how harrowing it can be to receive code very late in the process).. but yet they still make it happen 99% of the time. Those driver optimizations are crucial, you can't expect a brand new game to run flawlessly on months old drivers.

That's impossible when they can't even look at the game source code until it's released, which is usually the case for Nvidia-sponsored titles.

Wag · May 23, 2015

Beerman462 said:
Sounds like a multi GPU issue. I will never use multi GPUs for this reason.

Doubt that. It's probably more from poor Kepler support than anything. I should be able to get a consistent > 40FPS @4k/60Hz at least with 3 Titans.

I will be upgrading though to either 980Ti or 390x, more for the HDMI 2.0 support than anything else.

ShockingAlberto · May 23, 2015

Yeah, I've always gotten AMD cards because they're just usually more affordable, but the number of games where I'm taking performance hits for thinks like hair is making me reconsider how my next card purchase will go.

OnionPowder · May 23, 2015

Chris_C said:
I'm guessing most posters haven't read the articles yet? The Forbes piece argues that AMD had the option to approach CDPR for years before launch about TressFX integration, and didn't till 2 months before release. It also states that a Reddit user got Hairworks running properly on AMD hardware with a simple profile update, while AMD hasn't released a new driver in almost half a year (that last past can't be true, surely?)

Looks like their last driver release was in December of 2014. How is that even possible?

dex3108 · May 23, 2015

OnionPowder said:
Looks like their last driver release was in December of 2014. How is that even possible?

They are releasing beta drivers regularly.

antonz · May 23, 2015

BlackNinja said:
161 day old drivers is definitely a sign of not prioritizing the company's goals. Company valuation being as low as it is indicates something not quite right with the way it's being driven as well..

AMD has released multiple beta drivers in the time the article is claiming they haven't.
Not sure why AMD calls them beta drivers since they end up being official anyways but they do.

I can't blame developers for taking the paycheck when NVIDIA shows up but it is deliberate sabotaging of performance on competitor cards. hairworks has worked out ok through tweaks because AMD at least lets its users modify things like tessellation in the control panel otherwise AMD would be getting penalties in performance 20-40% more than NVIDIA cards even though they are basically identical.

Then there is obvious sabotage of Older Nvidia products to run like shit with Witcher 3 even though similar older AMD run comparatively amazingly.

tuxfool · May 23, 2015

Skyzard said:
Just about - 38fps lock, no hairworks, high foliage and shadows, rest on ultra, 1440p to improve look of vegetation. TI SC. Crashes with overclocking since the patch.

Holy crap. I almost get that on a r9 290, except with everything on ultra (~35 fps).

Yeah, Kepler is busted on this game. However, it should also be noted that while kepler performance in driver updates has remained static for a while, R9 performance has increased quite a bit since launch.

Renekton · May 23, 2015

OnionPowder said:
Looks like their last driver release was in December of 2014. How is that even possible?

The latest beta driver is 4/13/2015. They seem to put new game-specific tweaks/fixes into monthly betas.

Might be just naming, AMD calls it beta while Nvidia calls it "game-ready driver".

edit: oops nvm Nvidia game-ready drivers have WHQL.

tuxfool · May 23, 2015

OnionPowder said:
Looks like their last driver release was in December of 2014. How is that even possible?

They release beta drivers monthly. WHQL honestly is little more than rubber stamping, it isn't really pertinent for people upgrading their drivers for performance, nor has it ever been an absolute guarantee of stability.

Ophiuchus · May 23, 2015

The comment section in that Forbes article is interesting.I found comment comment by TB to be quite right.

Some claim AMD cards are rebrands in the 300 series and then go ahead to ignore HBM. Even if they were rebrands, why are you discounting the innovation brought forward by AMD in the HBM memory?

And what exactly has nvidia brought forward that is particularly useful to us and the industry? You people are just blind to facts. Oh AMD is responsible for the memory to be used in GPUs for the foreseeable future, but they are clearly doing nothing

Nvidia bought physx and builds a really bad implementation of hair/fur and they are king.

I am also fan of AMD ( still prefer word ATI Radeon ) and the only thing that bothers me is their driver update issue.Regarding the Witcher 3, I had constant crashes with my 290X card and it took nearly 2 days to figure out the problem and to fix it.
And I remember the days when physx used to be physx.Nvidia purchased it and made nothing out of it that I could call innovation.

dex3108 · May 23, 2015

antonz said:
AMD has released multiple beta drivers in the time the article is claiming they haven't.
Not sure why AMD calls them beta drivers since they end up being official anyways but they do.

I can't blame developers for taking the paycheck when NVIDIA shows up but it is deliberate sabotaging of performance on competitor cards. hairworks has worked out ok through tweaks because AMD at least lets its users modify things like tessellation in the control panel otherwise AMD would be getting penalties in performance 20-40% more than NVIDIA cards even though they are basically identical.

They won't/can't submit every build for WHQL certification?

SpecialAgentZ · May 23, 2015

RenegadeXV8 said:
That's impossible when they can't even look at the game source code until it's released, which is usually the case for Nvidia-sponsored titles.

So not true;
But I think this is exactly what AMD wants with these absurd claims. It's cheaper than spending money with development.

Unknown Soldier · May 23, 2015

Arttemis said:
Nvidia's tactics have always churned my stomach. Pushing their proprietary tech that has no discernible improvement over the open TressFX, but cuts performance in half... gross.

I wonder if people will ever figure out that AMD makes things "open" like TressFX, FreeSync, etc. because no one would ever use it otherwise. Nvidia's mindshare over software technology for GPUs is so overwhelming that they can say, look here this is CUDA, this is G-Sync, this is PhysX, etc. etc. and they will provide the support to the developers, they will work with them throughout development to make sure the technology is implemented and it just so happens that Nvidia cards are better optimized for it because Nvidia is the provider of the tech.

AMD has never been willing or able to compete with Nvidia in software, and the reality is that GameWorks is only the latest example of how Nvidia controls the software stack that developers rely on to make PC games and have for at least a decade. None of this is new news. AMD will either learn to compete with Nvidia in software, or they will continue to make angry claims about Nvidia while their market share dwindles and their financial lifeline slips away. They never figured out how to compete against Intel either.

RenegadeXV8 · May 23, 2015

tuxfool said:
They release beta drivers monthly. WHQL honestly is little more than rubber stamping, it isn't really pertinent for people upgrading their drivers for performance, nor has it ever been a guarantee of stability.

Yeah, people put far too much stock into WHQL. Look at Nvidia's couple of past WHQL drivers, they ain't nothing to write home about.

Witcher 3 has crashed so many times on my 970M with the "Game Ready WHQL" driver, while I haven't had a single crash on my 290X with AMD's month old beta driver.

CambriaRising · May 23, 2015

AMD whining because they can't compete.

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