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PS1 game N2O gets emulated release on Steam, more coming.

Y

ymgve

Member
I'm really curious about how they did achievements. Since they use a GPLd emulator, I think they are required to release the source related to those parts too if anyone asks.

I also "cracked" their "encryption" of the game ISO (Not going into details, but it's shockingly simple) and the decrypted ISO boots up in ePSXe just fine, and looks like a totally plain PSX ISO file.
 
CamHostage

CamHostage

Member
Well, I'm interested in seeing how far "Console Classics" goes, but it does feel hinky (even though they did release the source code for their emulator.) On top of the concerns others have voiced, they're bringing out Tatsunoko Fight... how? The licensing on that has to be nightmarish (it's a miracle that the Capcom v Tatsunoko shipped,) and unlike some of these other products, there's no pre-existing foreign license that Console Classics could be exploited on a re-release. I'm not sure how this is happening...

That being said, I'm not opposed to this method of release and I'm impressed by how many titles they were able to line up. I'd like to see them bring these games to PSN as well since they have the rights (though maybe they ironically don't have PS release rights?), and it'd be interesting to see where else this emulator and market plan could take them... they already talk about have iOS release plans, could they maybe release PS1 emulated games on say Xbox One?

Wereroku said:
Kouldelka is SNK property if it was going to be released it would be through them.
Click to expand...

Well, that could be explained though. Even though SNK produced it, Infogrames published it in many territories, and depending on how Console Classics picked up the rights, they may have loopholed SNK out of publishing rights in those territories under certain terms (which SNK may or may not have had a problem with anyway depending on the deal terms of the licensing.)
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
Radius4 said:
Still not fully compliant, you can't slap DRM on top of GPLv3.
Click to expand...

I'd hardly call protecting their own IP and game ISO DRM.
They own the rights to sell and distribute their own game. Which happens to be an ISO. If it wasn't encrypted, then just anyone could take the ISO after purchasing and redistribute it. Anyone could play it easily with any emulator.

They even mention themselves
We also got notified our game did not include the appropriate GPL license information, which got lost in the transition from our own custom installer to the SteamPipe installer, which we will rectify in the upcoming patch.
Click to expand...

It's not like they can just make a steam page that only sells the ISO unprotected and tell users essentially to go find any ol emu to play it.
Either way, i'm excited big time to be able to legally purchase Koudelka again
 
A

ArjanN

Member
Some interesting old niche games on their site like D and Koudelka. I vaguely remember Gekido being a decent 3D Not-Final Fight. The GBA Gekido game was pretty solid.

Although to be honest I feel most of the PS1 stuff is pretty rough to go back to outside of the best of the best stuff.
 
A

afternoon delight

Member
Righteous, I spy D on there! I'm all for emulating, but give me a stable release .exe that will forever be on Steam's servers and I'll repurchase my entire childhood. Hear that marketing people? I'll do it.
 
Radius4

Radius4

Member
BONKERS said:
I'd hardly call protecting their own IP and game ISO DRM.
They own the rights to sell and distribute their own game. Which happens to be an ISO. If it wasn't encrypted, then just anyone could take the ISO after purchasing and redistribute it. Anyone could play it easily with any emulator.

They even mention themselves

It's not like they can just make a steam page that only sells the ISO unprotected and tell users essentially to go find any ol emu to play it.
Either way, i'm excited big time to be able to legally purchase Koudelka again
Click to expand...

They wrapped the emulator with DRM. I don't care how they feel about their IP they are violating a license.
 
L

Liseda

Member
Radius4 said:
They wrapped the emulator with DRM. I don't care how they feel about their IP they are violating a license.
Click to expand...
Uh, what?

Please don't be outraged about something you don't even know anything about.

There is nothing in the GPL license nor GPLv2 or GPLv3 that says you aren't allowed to call stuff that isn't GPL.

Steam DRM is not in the game itself, the game calls to steam_api.dll. (which is not GPL)

They did one mistake and are providing the changes now, they are not violating any license.
 
Radius4

Radius4

Member
The game itself is not the problem. The game here is more like an asset, think of Microsoft Word (emulator), vs a .doc (game) file.

Again, they wrapped the EMULATOR, a GPLv3 emulator in a DRM wrapper.
You can't even distribute GPLv3 software in most walled garden type online outlets (not sure about steam)

We update the GPL to protect its copyleft from being undermined by legal or technological developments. The most recent version protects users from three recent threats:

Tivoization: Some companies have created various different kinds of devices that run GPLed software, and then rigged the hardware so that they can change the software that's running, but you cannot. If a device can run arbitrary software, it's a general-purpose computer, and its owner should control what it does. When a device thwarts you from doing that, we call that tivoization.
Laws prohibiting free software: Legislation like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and the European Union Copyright Directive make it a crime to write or share software that can break DRM (Digital Restrictions Management; see below). These laws should not interfere with the rights the GPL grants you.
Discriminatory patent deals: Microsoft has recently started telling people that they will not sue free software users for patent infringement—as long as you get the software from a vendor that's paying Microsoft for the privilege. Ultimately, Microsoft is trying to collect royalties for the use of free software, which interferes with users' freedom. No company should be able to do this.
Click to expand...
From the quick guide to GPLv3

They can do whatever they want to the game, release for free or throw it out of the window, makes no difference whatsoever. The problem is not the game, is the emulator
Yes they are releasing the **incomplete** source code which is a step in the right direction but I don't think they can ever be fully compliant... not that it will make any difference, noone will sue or do anything on the legal road because that requires money and motivation. Many emudevs are just 'meh' about these issues. That doesn't mean it's alright.
 
G

Game Guru

Member
Radius4 said:
The game itself is not the problem. The game here is more like an asset, think of Microsoft Word (emulator), vs a .doc (game) file.

Again, they wrapped the EMULATOR, a GPLv3 emulator in a DRM wrapper.
You can't even distribute GPLv3 software in most walled garden type online outlets (not sure about steam)
Click to expand...

Steam isn't DRM. There are DRM-Free games on Steam. Google Play is also a walled garden and has many GPL v3 software on it, properly sourced and released by the developers themselves.

Laws prohibiting free software: Legislation like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and the European Union Copyright Directive make it a crime to write or share software that can break DRM (Digital Restrictions Management; see below). These laws should not interfere with the rights the GPL grants you.
Click to expand...

This is the only relevant change in GPL v3 in regards to DRM, and all it means is that Console Classics cannot legally prosecute a person who breaks whatever DRM they may have on their emulator, not that it can't have DRM on it. DRM has no legal power on GPL v3 software like what is given by something like the DMCA, not that DRM can't be used on GPL v3 software. In essence, GPL v3 allows a person to legally break the DRM for software released under it.
 
O

Omikaru

Member
Radius4 said:
Again, they wrapped the EMULATOR, a GPLv3 emulator in a DRM wrapper.
Click to expand...
Can't speak for not being allowed to sell the game on walled gardens like Steam, but do we know that they've wrapped the game in DRM?

I don't have it myself so I can't say, but there are plenty of Steam games that are DRM free and work independently of the client. Surely doing this wouldn't violate the license?

Steam as a client isn't DRM.
 
Radius4

Radius4

Member
Game Guru said:
Steam isn't DRM. There are DRM-Free games on Steam. Google Play is also a walled garden and has many GPL v3 software on it, properly sourced and released by the developers themselves.



This is the only relevant change in GPL v3 in regards to DRM, and all it means is that Console Classics cannot legally prosecute a person who breaks whatever DRM they may have on their emulator, not that it can't have DRM on it. DRM has no legal power on GPL v3 software like what is given by something like the DMCA, not that DRM can't be used on GPL v3 software. In essence, GPL v3 allows a person to legally break the DRM for software released under it.
Click to expand...

Omikaru said:
Can't speak for not being allowed to sell the game on walled gardens like Steam, but do we know that they've wrapped the game in DRM?

I don't have it myself so I can't say, but there are plenty of Steam games that are DRM free and work independently of the client. Surely doing this wouldn't violate the license?

Steam as a client isn't DRM.
Click to expand...

jediyoshi said:
Do you actually know this, or are you just assuming because it's being distributed on Steam? Hell, The Witcher 3 on Steam doesn't even have Steam DRM.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know it's wrapped on the optional DRM.
 
Y

ymgve

Member
As far as I can tell, the two executables are not obfuscated.

N2O.exe is a simple un-obfuscated launcher coded in .NET that can be ran without starting Steam.

gameengine.exe is as far as I can tell just the compiled version of the source code posted on Reddit. It does check if Steam is running, but it does not have the standard Steam wrapper/obfuscator that other games use. The Steam related code can all be found in the "licensing" folder of the released source code. Not sure if such a simple check can really be considered DRM.

The game ISO is obfuscated, but it's a very simple obfuscation, basically just enough to fulfill (I guess) a licensing demand of "don't include the plain ISO". A bit worrying that I haven't found the deobfuscation code in the source code yet, though.
 
Radius4

Radius4

Member
The emulator does the Steam auth calls (for achieves, DRM), and then calls code referencing that string. Not sure why yet.
Click to expand...

I talked to a guy that reversed this and the mentioned that.
Anyway if I'm mistaken I apologize but as I said before:

- GPLv3 is viral, if you compile in some library you'd have to release source for that library too. (Talking about gameengine, and the steam library doing achieves, drm, etc). If it's linked at runtime I'm uncertain.
- I'm still unclear about steam but I'm pretty sure a dev could comply about the walled garden nature of steam restricting some of the liberties the license provides

Anyway point is moot, if the devs don't care I shouldn't care (that's what I'll try to do in the future :3) and noone should care.
 
E

Emperor Bohe

Member
I went on their website and they have Gekido there. I hope that they re-release that game on Steam, I vaguely remember enjoying it on a PS1 demo disc back in the day.
 
F

Freddo

Member
This is cool. If Battle Arena Toshinden, D and Koudelka are available for purchase, I will buy them. Maybe Motorhead too.

That said, the Motorhead page on their website is wrong, says it's developed by Urbanscan (which I never heard of) while it was in reality developed by Digital Illusions CE.

I see many of the games were originally from Gremlin Interactive and looking up Urbanscan it seems like they are connected. They were both founded by the same person. And Urbanscan bought most (all?) of the Gremlin published stuff after going out of business.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Freddo said:
This is cool. If Battle Arena Toshinden, D and Koudelka are available for purchase, I will buy them. Maybe Motorhead too.

That said, the Motorhead page on their website is wrong, says it's developed by Urbanscan (which I never heard of) while it was in reality developed by Digital Illusions CE.

I see many of the games were originally from Gremlin Interactive and looking up Urbanscan it seems like they are connected. They were both founded by the same person. And Urbanscan bought most (all?) of the Gremlin published stuff after going out of business.
Click to expand...
It's strange though, because Motorhead (as well as Re-Loaded) had a PC port.
 
S

Syriel

Member
Quadraphonic said:
How do they get around all the references to Playstation on memory cards and stuff? Hell, they're using the copyrighted symbols for the Playstation controller.

This isn't going to stay up long, folks.
Click to expand...

Quadraphonic said:
That seems sketchy to me.

7YBbQGr.jpg


This means there's going to be all the references to "Playstation(R) Memory Card" and such.

There's a difference between recognizing a controller and using the assets outright.
Click to expand...

If it is a PSX game those references will be there because it's a PSX game. Same as when you run MGS in Bleem! on a Dreamcast. ;)

funkystudent said:
Emulating a system for commercial purposes without the creators permission seems like its on shakey legal ground but I guess stuff like the retron exist so maybe it's OK?
Click to expand...

100% legal to emulate in the US so long as you're not using copyrighted code. This uses a HLE BIOS rather than a Sony dump, so all good.

Striek said:
How do they emulate it without a bios?
Click to expand...

Custom BIOS.

Faustek said:
Yeah well it's easily rectified by them.
At least I think the only issue here is the GPL violation? Of course we have others that have broken this and gotten away without even a Jimmie rustled. Actually many are doing so today and no one can touch them :( They have even openly refused to comply with the GPL. Take a second to look at the Android world and come into this corner and cry with me :(
Click to expand...

bVork said:
I asked for the source code and got it via email. Here's their response:

Here's an upload of what they attached to the email: https://mega.co.nz/#!iIJ1VSwD!ZhcSHqejMGecopiqMfHnUsNhx_LRuUv4k3zrXrHNqUo

Seems like a lot of drama over nothing.
Click to expand...

You don't even have to ask via email. Source code for the GPL bits is on their webpage.

http://consoleclassics.co/?page_id=4

N2O: http://consoleclassics.co/open-source/n2o-engine.zip

Buggy: http://consoleclassics.co/open-source/buggy-engine.zip
 
K

Komo

Banned
Apparently Buggy was ported to the PC (not 100% sure. It's an obscure game, so finding info isn't that easy), yet the Steam release is the PS1 version emulated on the PC?

Not sure who'd want that, unless they're somehow vastly different from each other
 
CamHostage

CamHostage

Member
Shaneus said:
It's strange though, because Motorhead (as well as Re-Loaded) had a PC port.
Click to expand...
Azurex said:
Apparently Buggy was ported to the PC (not 100% sure. It's an obscure game, so finding info isn't that easy), yet the Steam release is the PS1 version emulated on the PC?
Click to expand...

They may be limited in what they're licensed for? They may have rights to PS1 code but not variants.

Also, their business is wrapped up in producing titles using this PS1 emulator, which includes these PC releases but will be branching out to iOS and Android in the future, according to the Classic Console website. (Plus, the titles will have been QAed, in a sense, as long as the software runs clean in the emulator, whereas old PC games would have to be retrofitted for new graphic cards and OS functions ironically to play on new PCs.)
 
R

Ruruja

Member
So I assume they own the licences for all these games?

I don't understand how it's legal to put emulated ps1 games on steam and ask for money otherwise.

Seems a bit shady to me.
 
A

ArjanN

Member
Ruruja said:
So I assume they own the licences for all these games?

I don't understand how it's legal to put emulated ps1 games on steam and ask for money otherwise.

Seems a bit shady to me.
Click to expand...

I assume they do, or their stuff would get booted off Steam in a day anyway.
 
A

androvsky

Member
Ruruja said:
So I assume they own the licences for all these games?

I don't understand how it's legal to put emulated ps1 games on steam and ask for money otherwise.

Seems a bit shady to me.
Click to expand...
What part wouldn't be legal? Don't forget Sony lost the Bleem case where a company was selling a PS1 emulator that ran on the Dreamcast and PC. As long as this company has the rights to sell the games and they comply with the emulator license (and the emulator uses a reverse engineered bios), there should be no problem.
 
K

Katori

Member
Ruruja said:
So I assume they own the licences for all these games?

I don't understand how it's legal to put emulated ps1 games on steam and ask for money otherwise.

Seems a bit shady to me.
Click to expand...
Emulators are perfectly legal. They're reverse engineered. Dozens of Steam games use DOSBox, ScummVM, Genesis emulators...how do you think Nintendo (and Sony, and Microsoft) sells their old games on their own digital storefronts?

ROMs (ISOs in this case) aren't legal to download or distribute, unless the person distributing them has the distribution rights. Which these people do.
 
Danny Dudekisser

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
The screenshots for Sol Divide look rough.


I mean, it was never a pretty game, but if those screenshots are any indication, this isn't exactly a stellar port. And if it's based on the shitty PS1 version... well, I honestly don't see the appeal.
 
E

Enter The 36 Chambers

Member
This is slightly off topic,

But does anyone remember a game on the Ps1 demo disk I think? There was giant grey stone cubes in a row falling over in tandem?

Maybe a puzzle game or something? This is driving me crazy trying to remember what it was
 
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