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jeff_rigby
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:01 PM)
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UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016.. There is a second paper naming both the XB1 and PS4 as UHD game consoles. or http://www.eceee.org/static/media/up...akeholders.pdf

So this is understood as confirmed:

The PS4 has a HDMI 2 port with HDCP taking place in Southbridge and the GPGPU block mentioned by Eurogamer in the PS4 and XB1 are Xtensa DSP accelerators that are used for HEVC and OpenVX (Vision processing and Codecs using GPGPU with special blocks that are 20-100X more efficient than CPU or GPU GPGPU at some tasks.)

And for the Player software and License for UHD Game Console

There is a BDA Licence for UHD Blu-ray game consoles and Sony has a License for a BD-ROM4 Movie Player/BD-ROM Game Console/BD-ROM Test Player and a License for a UHD Blu-ray PC application.. BD-ROM4 is the UHD blu-ray version. What was confusing was that it was for a Category that included all Embedded platforms where the Manufacturer has control over the drive and all DRM; I.E. Stand alone UHD Blu-ray players and Game Consoles.

There is no such thing as a UHD drive; there is no UHD Drive in the PS4 or the coming Neo.

A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks). They must buy a Licence and provide a server for pairing/Key encryption between the drive and Player across the USB or eSATA bus. ALL blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. It's the disk that is special not the drive; this is mentioned in Wiki pages.

Key is understanding that UHD in all it's forms and Vidipath use the same open source standards >> HTML5 and a UHD TV display is a web page. ALL UHD including TV supports DRM via HTML5 <video> MSE EME standard and a common DRM chosen for Vidipath is Playready.


There are three four issues with 4K blu-ray:

1) HDMI port with HDCP 2.2 (the new PS4 released in November of the same year will also be equipped with HDMI 2.0 jacks).

2) Drive able to read 3 layer with Panasonic tweek.
3) HEVC low power codec support. Just about any modern GPU can support HEVC but low power HEVC is needed.
4) Chicken and egg adoption due to 1080P being "good enough" and UHD (4K) requiring a new TV




In the above picture of the original PS4 HDMI chip (same applies to the new PS4 revision):

1) Both are custom HDMI chips.
2) Both have all pins exposed and both motherboard designs make no attempt to hide the video and audio input to the HDMI chip. The video and audio must be encrypted before the HDMI chip! Southbridge handles HDCP 2.2!

The above is lost on just about everyone because they either don't know what a HDMI chip does or didn't notice this. DRM requires every trace or pin that has unencrypted video or audio be hidden inside the board and inaccessible. The HDMI 1.4 chips encrypt inside themselves with key negotiation between transmitter and receiver (Player and TV). In the PS4 designs the video and audio MUST be encrypted in Southbridge as the traces and pins on the custom HDMI chips are accessible.

Page 6 ourlines some DRM requirements solved by ARM TEE, DTCP/IP and HDCP SW and configuration executed in TEE For the PS4, that is the Southbridge as a ARM SoC with Trustzone. This also applies to Miracast support. HDCP = HDCP 2.2 done in the Southbridge TEE NOT the HDMI chip.

Originally Posted by https://transition.fcc.gov/dstac/wg3-draft-report-08042015.pdf

Secure Content Path – Devices shall be designed and manufactured such that unencrypted digital audiovisual data is never transmitted or observable using standard board-level hardware debugging tools such as logic analyzers, JTAG debuggers.

The quote is from the FCC DSTAC which is outlining a strategy for Downloadable security to eliminate the Cable Card. What this does mean is the PS3 might not be able to support Downloadable security and will report to Playready that it does not have a robust DRM scheme. I don't think it matters much as about 2011 the old HDCP scheme was cracked. Also we might see an upgrade in "robustness" if the PS3 implements watermarking which it could do with a firmware update.

HDMI 2.0 timings were known but the HDCP scheme was not. Since HDCP takes place in Southbridge it can be firmware updated. The custom HDMI chip supports the faster clock and programmable dividers for HDMI 2 and just passes through HDCP negotiations to Southbridge. All other features remain the same. Edit: The PS4 has a custom HDMI port to support VR with up to 120 FPS, it would have taken very little to include support for HDMI 2.0a and even High Frame Rate which will also be used for IPTV sporting events.

A new HDMI 2.0 feature allows sending HDCP 2.2 encrypted multi-cast over the Lan to another TV on the home network. This is another feature supported because HDMI 2.0 has a LAN pin to support passing through the LAN to all local HDMI cable connected devices. Since a HDMI 2.0 chip has a connection to the LAN it can be firmware updated and since they have confidence in the HDMI 2.2 encryption scheme they allow the HDMI stream to be multicast over the LAN where a "connected" TV can select that LAN input as a HDMI port and treat it as such much like DLNA servers are treated as Source Inputs on Samsung TVs which also treat RVU and Vidipath sources over the LAN as the same Source Inputs.

2) Modern Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray There is a 2010 patent from Sony which confirms modern blu-ray drives can support 4k blu-ray. The patent discusses a modification to either the coming 4 layer BDXL in the 2010 blu-ray whitepaper or 3 layer 4K blu-ray disks to make them unreadable on older blu-ray drives by inverting the track information. A software change to later higher spec standard blu-ray drives makes them able to read this inverted track information.

For example, if a new version of the Blu-ray Disc that incorporates a multi-layer structure of at least three layers (hereinafter called the Ver. 2.0 disc) becomes commercially available in the future, it could happen that a user would load a Ver. 2.0 disc into a Ver. 1.0 drive.

Basically, because the Blu-ray Disc format is the same, recording and playing back a Ver. 2.0 disc on a Ver. 1.0 drive would not be absolutely impossible. However, if the Ver. 2.0 disc is achieved by using higher density and more layers, it can be assumed that the various types of specifications with which the Ver. 1.0 drive is provided would not the adequate. So a change to the specs of a blu-ray drive would make it usable for 4K. That's what the 2010 blu-ray BD-R whitepaper was all about. They had from 2010 to do this. Sometime after 2010 modern drives could read 4 layer BDXL which means they could easily read 3 Layer commercial disks.

Therefore, in a case where recording and playback of a Ver. 2.0 disc are done on a Ver. 1.0 drive, there is concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency.

This patent is from 2010 is either about the coming 4 layer BDXL disks or 3 layer 4K and may show that the 3 layer with the 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak was KNOWN at that time in 2010 to be future 4K blu-ray disk. If it's about coming standard blu-ray drives able to read 4 layers then they can read 3 layer 4K disks. The following cite shows that production equipment to make such a disk was shipping late 2013 which means the standard was known much earlier.

Edit: See this page later in this thread as a reference for all drives released Oct 2015 has no mention of a UHD drive and tables mention Version 2 drives able to read disks with the same listed size as UHD blu-ray.

Singulus Develops Technology for 100 GB, 4K Triple-Layer Blu-Ray Discs in 2013 and mentions the PS4 and XB1 will have 4K blu-ray support.

The key difference is the UHD player looking for the BD-ROM Mark encrypted burn on a commercial UHD BD-ROM Blu-ray disk. The player is not allowed to play the commercial UHD media (Games too) unless it's there.
BD+ and BD-Rom Mark are an additional DRM released in 2007. "Only licensed BD-ROM manufacturers have access to the equipment that can make these unique ROM Marks, thus allowing authentic BD-ROM media like movies and music to be identified.[1]"

The ROM Mark contains the Volume ID required to decrypt content encrypted using AACS. AACS version 2 optionally requires a on-line connection to a server plus the BD-ROM Mark. In all cases the BD+ Virtual machine is running in a TEE with stricter DRM.

In order, the License restrictions for UHD Blu-ray

https://www.blu-raydisc.info/rom4-faq.php
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/content...ction-rom4.php
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf





Picture of a disk with the BD-ROM Mark on the inner circle
= these marks ||| || |||| | ||

There is no UHD drive, it's a modern Version 2 blu-ray drive that can play HD & UHD disks. Version 2 BD-ROM drives follow the 2010 BD-R whitepaper specs and can read BD-R XL disks or three layer 100 GB disks that can contain UHD media. The commercial UHD player can only read a BD-ROM disk that contains the BD-ROM MARK. Non Commercial 4K media is supported on all disks as BD-R even if it's a pressed BD-ROM disk? I think that is the point of your post, the format of the 4K media so that the player can play it should be the same as HD except for the HEVC codec.

Originally Posted by http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=256623

I've been informed that PC's will not require new Blu-ray drives to playback 4k media/bluray. PC's will only need software that supports 4K (PowerDVD 14 already does this). So we have it then....

3) Low power HEVC HEVC in both the XB1 and PS4 is supported with Xtensa stream processors as software accelerators. Found by OnQ123 who is also just returning from being banned and one of the posters I respect.

The PS4 Southbridge has a ARM Trustzone managed AXI buss and can support TEE level DRM = Playready 3 for 4K blu-ray and Playready ND for streaming in the home via the Digital bridge. (The ARM AXI bus and Xtensa processors, externally and internally, support NOC (Network On Chip)). Power PC and ARMV8 designed for servers are called Oban because of the NOC. The cancelled 2011 Xbox 360 was called Oban and the XB1 should also be Oban because it internally has a AXI buss and Xtensa processors.

Early speculation Goto, a well respected Japanese hardware reviewer, speculated the PS4 would have a custom HDMI chip before the 2013 hardware breakdown reveled the Panasonic custom HDMI chip. He never explained why and how it would work and everyone assumed it was a custom HDMI 2.0. He must have known then what the original discover (I cited Ron Jones of the AVS Forum) of the custom nature of the chip means.

You need to understand what a HDMI chip does to fully understand what I'm saying. A HDMI 1.4 chip has a multitude of functions in addition to the video out which don't change from 1.4 to 2.0. For example expanded CEC in HDMI 2.0 is just adding additional commands which are passed through the HDMI chip untouched. The differences are timing/clock/bandwidth and HDCP. The video be it 8 bit or 10 bit is just a stream that has a higher bandwidth (Higher clock) at 60 hz and 10 bit. ALL video generation is done by the player in Southbridge not by the HDMI chip...it just sees a stream of video and audio.

HDMI chips (transmitter and receiver) talk to each other and negotiate an encryption scheme and with supported resolutions the clock timings. HDMI 2.0 has a new HDCP scheme which wasn't known and will be considerably more intense that that in HDMI 1.4 And new resolutions/clock timings which were known.

In 2010 there were several whitepapers about BD-R and those set the stage for new specs that BD-ROM drives comply with to allow them to read 4 layer BDXL disks. Those higher specs included a new laser and new routines for reliably reading a three or 4 layer disk. New lasers were also needed because the older designs were unreliable and Lasers failed as well as the optics being damaged. This was a major problem for PS3 drives, I went through two drives since 2008.

4) Chicken and egg adoption due to 1080P being "good enough" and UHD (4K) requiring a new TV 4K blu-ray is going to have adoption issues (chicken and egg) which nearly everyone sees. The digital bridge will be a big attractions as it makes legal, archival copies and streaming those copies throughout the home; this includes our libraries of HD (1080P) disks. Further, Microsoft states that Playready ND will support DVR and Live streaming. Add that the FCC DSTAC is going to replace the cable card with a Downloadable Security Scheme and we have the High end UHD Blu-ray player (PS4 & XB1) being the media hub mentioned by the Fox CEO.

From Microsoft's Playready 3 site: Supporting In-Home Content Distribution with PlayReady for Network Devices page 14

"The game console, acting as a PlayReady ND transmitter, has obtained a license from the service and it sends media files to valid PlayReady ND receivers that are part of the same in-home network. It also uses PlayReady technologies to build and issue local licenses to authorized receiving devices. Note that this model can also be applied to both live streams, video-on-demand and DVR content."

This outlines a model similar to Vidipath except using Playready ND instead of WMDRM10 and confirms the XB1 and PS4 will be streaming 4K media in the home (from Cable TV and OTT) and supports both as 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge.

Originally Posted by http://www.cepro.com/article/fox_home_entertainment_proposes_blu-ray_movie_servers_as_uhd_digital_bridge/

By Julie Jacobson, October 21, 2013
Mike Dunn, president of 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment, thinks we need an easier way to manage high-def content. He is calling on Hollywood and consumer electronics manufacturers to work together to create a Blu-ray player with terabytes of space for storing and managing content, including 4K Ultra HD.

During his keynote presentation at the CEA Industry Forum in Los Angeles this week, Dunn spoke of an “entertainment hub” that ushers consumers into the digital world. It would store and make TV shows and movies available to any device.

“Consumers would have the ability to copy their physical discs and store and manage their entire digital library in one centralized location—managed in the living room,” he says, “where most content is viewed on the big screen.”

To that end, he says, 20th Century Fox recently is launching an “Innovation Lab” to foster “relationships with CE and tech companies to start early in the innovation cycle.”

Anyway, he says this “Digital Bridge is really the platform for the future” and that “we must build it together.”

And then, he adds, “Everyone can innovate around that for the next 10 years.”

My guess based on Playready ND papers is that both the PS4 and XB1 (XB1 for games and Skype has been confirmed using HEVC) will support streaming 4K in the home and Vidipath DTCP which can only support 1080i or lower resolution will be upgraded to use Playready ND for Cable TV 4K DVRs which are now shipping. Having all PS4, XB1 and PCs with Windows 10 (provided they have the TEE hardware required either in the APU or dGPU) able to support this to most CE platforms in the home will be a big selling feature for Game Consoles and PCs as well as 4K blu-ray.

If you assume the XB1 and PS4 have the same game and media streaming endgame, between the two there are leaks and clues that confirm the above. There is confirmation that the XB1 supports HEVC streaming which requires both encoding and decoding but not for Sony. If Sony wants to do the same then they need both also. Playready ND has an example being used with a Game Console, is this just the XB1? Sony Studios has a 4K Digital bridge explanation stating it supports C-ENC which is what would be used for in home streaming by Playready ND. Is this only Sony's PS4 or the XB1 too?

Sony is seriously invested in the Connected Home = DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath. Further cites here.

Blu-ray streaming comfirmed!

Some interesting fact and supported speculation:

1) The PS4 should be able to play 4K blu-ray
2) DTLA in 2010? planned on streaming blu-ray over the home network but the ecosystem didn't develop. VIdipath is now that ecosystem.
3) 4K blu-ray plans call for a bridge to home and portable players where media can be copied and played on tablets and TVs.



Playready DRM supports the use cases in the Digital bridge slides. In this proposal for Digital bridge, again a Sony proposal it mentions C-ENC (Common encryption) which supports multiple DRM schemes but requires the same format used by Playready as does HTML5 <video> ME and Vidipath. On page 7 of the Sony Studios Digital bridge proposal is this: "Streaming video to mobile / TV
from Home Server
" from both AACS Bound Copy and non-AACS Bound Copy (likely Playready ND). They want the same functionality in the home that Ultraviolet has from the Cloud.

Again; [B]Vidipath platforms have Playready certified DRM and plans are to stream and copy movies and games between platforms

Vidipath and the digital bridge allow access to media from any DRM secure platform in the home. No longer do you have to insert a disk into a player to watch the movie or have the blu-ray player in the same room connected to the TV. This June you can watch TV or access Cable TV DVR Movies from any TV provided it supports Vidipath or has a Vidipath STB or Game Console attached to it.

Leaked Pansasonic proposal for UHD Blu-ray mentions Digital bridge using WMDRM Playready ND


AACS 2.0 -1st draft

Sony wants Digital bridge mandatory for HD & UHD.

Digital Bridge Export Function
thuway
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(07-29-2015, 01:02 PM)
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I thought modern players are incompatible because of how the laser reads the disc? Are you sure about this Jeff?
Occam
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(07-29-2015, 01:03 PM)
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Isn't that the same thing you posted last week?
TUSR
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(07-29-2015, 01:04 PM)
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okay...
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
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(07-29-2015, 01:04 PM)
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I'm gonna buy a 4K TV so I bloody hope so.
John Bender
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:06 PM)
My 4K 80" BRAVIA TV is ready.
Ishan
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(07-29-2015, 01:08 PM)
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Assumed it wasn't a hardware issue but an os issue ... Also assumed this was a reporting of an official sony press release
jeff_rigby
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(07-29-2015, 01:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by thuway

I thought modern players are incompatible because of how the laser reads the disc? Are you sure about this Jeff?

I don't have to be sure, Sony says that in the patent. It's the easiest to understand most thorough proof there is!
Guymelef
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(07-29-2015, 01:10 PM)
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That title, no confirmation...
Newtype-001
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(07-29-2015, 01:11 PM)
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Nice
jeff_rigby
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(07-29-2015, 01:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Occam

Isn't that the same thing you posted last week?

Yes but in searching every post on the Internet about the PS4 and 4K blu-ray even to this day most still think the the PS4 can't support being a 4K blu-ray player. It's ridiculous and needed to be corrected.

Just look at this thread Will the PS4 support 4k blu-ray or this one quoting the Forbes article
Finaika
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(07-29-2015, 01:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by John Bender

My 4K 80" BRAVIA TV is ready.

My 4k Blu-ray is ready.
pezley
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:12 PM)
Yea......... Um, just because the hardware might be capable doesn't mean they will implement it.
Finale Fireworker
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(07-29-2015, 01:13 PM)
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So, is Jeff some kind of science man who lives in space?
Omni
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(07-29-2015, 01:13 PM)
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I feel like I've read this before. Like this same exact thread.

Interesting.
Bitch Pudding
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(07-29-2015, 01:14 PM)
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That's funny, I just spent my lunch hour lurking around at our nearby Saturn shop where I had a closer look at all those 4k TVs.

I really asked myself what's the actual benefit for that extra 4k money (compared to FullHD), since there is literaly no native 4k material available in Germany. No Blu-Rays, no PS4 games, no Sky 4k channel.

4k on PS4 would be a good start.
Occam
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(07-29-2015, 01:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by pezley

Yea......... Um, just because the hardware might be capable doesn't mean they will implement it.

Right, because Sony wouldn't want to sell 4k BDs to those ~24 million PS4 owners in case there is a way.
sono
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(07-29-2015, 01:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Guymelef

That title, no confirmation...

I really apppreciate Jeff's detail, but you are right and that was the first thing I wanted to read in his post.

At the moment I read the thread title as having a silent '?' at the end without that explicitly being stated in the op.


On an unrelated question - that picture of the motherboard - the motherboard looks damaged - any reason for that ?
Aztechnology
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(07-29-2015, 01:16 PM)
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So the problem is the red or the blue wire? Color me confused.


But seriously I did not know that about how HDMI signals are encoded and sent, pretty cool stuff. Thanks Jeff.
Mugatu
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(07-29-2015, 01:16 PM)
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I could be misreading it but that patent doesn't seem to about what you say it is - it seems to address ways of ensuring that newer (aka higher capacity) discs should still play in older, incompatible drives - it doesn't say that the older drives can access the increased content, just that attempting playback will not result in errors.

So you can plop in a 3-layer Bluray into a drive that was made for 2-layers discs and the drive won't crash, it will just read 2 of the layers.

For example, if a new version of the Blu-ray Disc that incorporates a multi-layer structure of at least three layers (hereinafter called the Ver. 2.0 disc) becomes commercially available in the future, it could happen that a user would load a Ver. 2.0 disc into a Ver. 1.0 drive.

Basically, because the Blu-ray Disc format is the same, recording and playing back a Ver. 2.0 disc on a Ver. 1.0 drive would not be absolutely impossible. However, if the Ver. 2.0 disc is achieved by using higher density and more layers, it can be assumed that the various types of specifications with which the Ver. 1.0 drive is provided would not the adequate.

Therefore, in a case where recording and playback of a Ver. 2.0 disc are done on a Ver. 1.0 drive, there is concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency.

The present invention is made in view of the above-mentioned issue and makes recording and playback impossible of a Ver. 2.0 disc is loaded into a Ver. 1.0 drive. In other words, rather than being able to record and play back in an unacceptable way, the present invention renders the Ver. 2.0 disc incompatible with the Ver. 1.0 drive. Conversely, this increases the usability of the Blu-ray Disc system for the user.

According to the present invention as described above, the error correction encoded address information is recorded on the second version recording medium after being transformed such that the address decoding cannot be performed by a playback device that is not compatible with the second version of the recording medium. Therefore, the address decoding for the second version recording medium cannot be performed by the incompatible playback device (for example, a playback device that was manufactured to be compatible only with the first version of the recording medium).

In other words, the same error correction encoding processing is used for both the first version and the second version, but because the error correction encoded address information is transformed by the inverting of specific bits or the like, a state is created in which address errors cannot be corrected, so the address decoding becomes impossible. Because the address decoding cannot be done, even if the second version recording medium is loaded into the incompatible playback device, it can be put into a state in which it cannot be accessed (recording and playback are impossible).

*I could be wrong - there are so many double-negatives in the patent that my head is spinning and it's quite early here so my apologies if I'm wrong but that's how it seems to me.
jeff_rigby
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Guymelef

That title, no confirmation...

If you understand what is required for DRM and 4K blu-ray it's a 100% confirmation.

1) It's a custom chip not a HDMI 1.4 chip. Everyone who says it's a HDMI 1.4 chip has no confirmation of that as it's not listed in the Panasonic web site. Why Custom? combine with the exposed traces and it's OBVIOUS! It's at the same time an elegant solution and is more secure.
ArchedThunder
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:18 PM)
So can the PS4 read triple layer blurays?
sono
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(07-29-2015, 01:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

If you understand what is required for DRM and 4K blu-ray it's a 100% confirmation.

1) It's a custom chip not a HDMI 1.4 chip. Everyone who says it's a HDMI 1.4 chip has no confirmation of that as it's not listed in the Panasonic web site. Why Custom? combine with the exposed traces and it's OBVIOUS! It's at the same time an elegant solution and is more secure.

Why does a custom chip mean 4K bluray. Another extreme interpretation is that it supports 8K bluray or HD DVD, without actually having the chip design infront of you how can you tell (sorry we are so dumb when it comes to electronic hardware)

edit:by the way I want you to be correct, this will be very cool PS4 feature
Stevey
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(07-29-2015, 01:20 PM)
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Idontbelieveyou.gif

Time will tell I guess
awake
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(07-29-2015, 01:20 PM)
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In Germany there are a few 4K Mastered movies availible. The 4K TVs look amazing when they are in demo mode with material just recorded for demo reasons (as usual).

Honestly, I don't think 4K is around the corner. Over here we don't even have 1080p as default..
geordiemp
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:21 PM)
So the OP is inferring that the chip could be capable...

What about the blue ray diode in Ps4, can that be tuned to read 4 K disks ?
Newtype-001
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(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

If you understand what is required for DRM and 4K blu-ray it's a 100% confirmation.

1) It's a custom chip not a HDMI 1.4 chip. Everyone who says it's a HDMI 1.4 chip has no confirmation of that as it's not listed in the Panasonic web site. Why Custom? combine with the exposed traces and it's OBVIOUS! It's at the same time an elegant solution and is more secure.

I barely understand but dont worry i believe!
RealityCheque
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:26 PM)
I know that 4k BluRay is a thing for people who really pay attention to every last ounce of picture quality but I just can't see how its going to be anything other than an unnecessary flop.

the general public don't watch movies this way anymore. Netflix and other streaming services have, for better or worse, taken over.
jeff_rigby
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(07-29-2015, 01:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mugatu

I could be misreading it but that patent doesn't seem to about what you say it is - it seems to address ways of ensuring that newer (aka higher capacity) discs should still play in older, incompatible drives - it doesn't say that the older drives can access the increased content, just that attempting playback will not result in errors.

So you can plop in a 3-layer Bluray into a drive that was made for 2-layers discs and the drive won't crash, it will just read 2 of the layers.

*I could be wrong - there are so many double-negatives in the patent that my head is spinning and it's quite early here so my apologies if I'm wrong but that's how it seems to me.

This about the need for the patent. If the case is a 4K blu-ray disk's third layer can't be read by a standard blu-ray drive then there is no need for the patent. This is the logic I understood for the patent.

A blu-ray drive can be firmware updated with the Panasonic tweak which allows a layer to go from 25 to 33 GB and the third layer just requires again software on modern drives. The information in each successive layer is always in the stream, what is required is focus of the laser for the lower layer and a strong enough laser to have the reflected signal detectable (phase changed 1/2 wavelength, which with pits when added to the original lasers phase cancels out to give a 0).

The Sony Patent is 2010 which is when a newer more powerful laser was released. All drives after 2012 have a more powerful laser that can read BDXL and 3 layer disks.

Edit: You have a point, the patent is about some early drives not reliably reading 3 & 4 Layer or with the Panasonic tweak. This patent's timing is 2010, the same year the BD-R whitepaper was released and it had BDXL 4 layer specs. I suspect that to insure reliability the patent makes an artificial break between lower spec drives released prior to 2011 or so and newer drives able to reliably support BDXL which would be likely by 2012. Those newer drives would be able to reliably read 4K blu-ray 3 layer with the panasonic tweak disks. I updated/edited the OP to reflect this.
Finaika
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(07-29-2015, 01:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by RealityCheque

I know that 4k BluRay is a thing for people who really pay attention to every last ounce of picture quality but I just can't see how its going to be anything other than an unnecessary flop.

the general public don't watch movies this way anymore. Netflix and other streaming services have, for better or worse, taken over.

4K Blu-rays will replace DVDs.
thuway
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(07-29-2015, 01:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by RealityCheque

I know that 4k BluRay is a thing for people who really pay attention to every last ounce of picture quality but I just can't see how its going to be anything other than an unnecessary flop.

the general public don't watch movies this way anymore. Netflix and other streaming services have, for better or worse, taken over.

4k Bluray might have "semblance" of a chance in the market if PS4 and Xbox One support it. Last generation even, PS3 was pretty much the Bluray player for 90% of people I knew.
Jebusman
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:34 PM)

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

If you understand what is required for DRM and 4K blu-ray it's a 100% confirmation.

So what you're saying is..... you don't have confirmation.

I mean, if you were to make the statement that "The PS4 COULD support 4K Blu-ray", then yes, you'd make a compelling argument.

Until Sony themselves say so, no, you don't have 100% confirmation, and the title is wrong.
Slixshot
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:34 PM)
I wonder how many years it will be before 4k actually hits mainstream. Like, with TV cable boxes actually outputting the high resolution/Blu Rays having "Watch in 4k" on the box.
Opus Angelorum
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:36 PM)
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At CES 2015 the Netflix CPO stated that Sony had promised a hardware revision for the PS4 that would support 4K and HDR.

Two things, Jeff:

1. Why would Sony say this (if the current PS4 wasn't capable)
2. Why would they tell Netflix

Here is the original article that mentions it : http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_6455936.html
RealityCheque
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:38 PM)

Originally Posted by Finaika

4K Blu-rays will replace DVDs.

But that's what I'm saying, sales of all disc formats have been falling for a long time and even BluRay itself is nothing like as successful as DVD was. Streaming has permanently altered the way people consume that sort of media.

The question I often hear about PS4/XBone in terms of media playback isn't:

"does it play BluRay discs?",

its almost always:

"How is Netflix on it?"

That's just anecdotal, but it indicates to me that the days of physical discs are coming to an end. Beyond 4K BD, does anyone see the big media groups trying for one more after this?
Nerfgun
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jebusman

So what you're saying is..... you don't have confirmation.

I mean, if you were to make the statement that "The PS4 COULD support 4K Blu-ray", then yes, you'd make a compelling argument.

Until Sony themselves say so, no, you don't have 100% confirmation, and the title is wrong.

but if you know these parts, and the consortia creating standards for them, I can see how jeff reaches this conclusion; literally every piece of the puzzle is there, so barring some weird political fallout, it's a pretty safe guess at this point.
ghst
thanks for the laugh
(07-29-2015, 01:39 PM)
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jeff rigby is the derek smart of tech analysts.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
(07-29-2015, 01:40 PM)
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Hope it does. That would be fucking fantastic .

If not it's no matter, I just want to start watching Blu Rays in 4K.

Regardless of I have to buy in or not.
xenorevlis
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Opus Angelorum

At CES 2015 the Netflix CPO stated that Sony had promised a hardware revision for the PS4 that would support 4K and HDR.

Two things, Jeff:

1. Why would Sony say this (if the current PS4 wasn't capable)
2. Why would they tell Netflix

Here is the original article that mentions it : http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_6455936.html

Actually when Sony first discussed the PS4 they announced Netflix 4K for it.
Opus Angelorum
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by xenorevlis

Actually when Sony first discussed the PS4 they announced Netflix 4K for it.

So again, why would Sony say that to Netflix?
jeff_rigby
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Opus Angelorum

At CES 2015 the Netflix CPO stated that Sony had promised a hardware revision for the PS4 that would support 4K and HDR.

Two things, Jeff:

1. Why would Sony say this (if the current PS4 wasn't capable)
2. Why would they tell Netflix

Here is the original article that mentions it : http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_6455936.html

How do rumors start? What was probably said; Sony promised the PS4 would get 4k blu-ray support at the end of the year. Is that a Software update or Hardware? One author assumed it was a Hardware update while I've shown the most serious hardware obstacle was HDCP 2.2 for the HDMI port and that has a firmware updatable solution.
NumberThree
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:44 PM)
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Did the PS3 Slim ever receive any functionality upgrades for HDMI? Because it had a similar (exposed) custom chip for HDMI: http://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/MN8647091

Was there even anything they could have updated? If not, why would they choose a chip like this in the PS3?
MADGM
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:49 PM)
We will see Jeff we will see! I feel sorry for anyone who bought a 4K TV as they still don't have any content for it
jeff_rigby
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by NumberThree

Did the PS3 Slim ever receive any functionality upgrades for HDMI? Because it had a similar (exposed) custom chip for HDMI: http://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/MN8647091

Was there even anything they could have updated? If not, why would they choose a chip like this in the PS3?

Good find. DRM requirements as we get closer to master quality have gotten stricter. With current DRM requirements, the PS4 with HDMI exposed traces and pins could not be certified for DRM if HDCP for the HDMI chip didn't take place in Southbridge.

Originally Posted by https://transition.fcc.gov/dstac/wg3-draft-report-08042015.pdf

Secure Content Path – Devices shall be designed and manufactured such that unencrypted digital audiovisual data is never transmitted or observable using standard board-level hardware debugging tools such as logic analyzers, JTAG debuggers.

The quote if from the DSTAC which is outlining a strategy for Downloadable security to eliminate the Cable Card. What this does mean is the PS3 might not be able to support Downloadable security and will report to Playready that it does not have a robust DRM scheme. I don't think it matters much as about 2011 the old HDCP scheme was cracked. Also we might see an upgrade in "robustness" if the PS3 implements watermarking which it could do with a firmware update.
Ricky_R
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:50 PM)
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Interesting thread title. I'm sure those who are eager to play 4k media on the PS4 will be amused.
Fisty
Member
(07-29-2015, 01:51 PM)
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Glad this can finally be put to rest. I cant imagine Sony didnt see 4K Blu Rays coming, considering they are going to be pushing them more than just about anyone else. Thanks for the breakdown, Jeff. Keep em coming!
Shuggananas
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:51 PM)

Originally Posted by MADGM

We will see Jeff we will see! I feel sorry for anyone who bought a 4K TV as they still don't have any content for it

but those promo nature shots looked so good in the shop !
MADGM
Banned
(07-29-2015, 01:54 PM)

Originally Posted by Shuggananas

but those promo nature shots looked so good in the shop !

Lmao exactly, guess they will be replaying them every time someone comes to visit there house
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
(07-29-2015, 01:59 PM)
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I want to believe but it's actually 2.0a (HDR support).

And what about the extra space for 4K bluRay?
spectator
Member
(07-29-2015, 02:05 PM)

Originally Posted by Opus Angelorum

At CES 2015 the Netflix CPO stated that Sony had promised a hardware revision for the PS4 that would support 4K and HDR.

Two things, Jeff:

1. Why would Sony say this (if the current PS4 wasn't capable)
2. Why would they tell Netflix

Here is the original article that mentions it : http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_6455936.html

4K video output/passthrough (as required by Netflix) is one part of the equation. Reading a disc (not required by Netflix) is another.

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